Kalaksbreath Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 my question is how will perfect gems affect soulcasters? Will perfect gems not crack when used to soulcast because it seems to me that it shouldn't but it might or will they just last longer than normal gems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 It's hard to say, because we don't know the exact reason why gems crack when used for Soulcasting, recharging Plate, etc. (I always imagine it as the same reason why hydrophane opals crack if they're dried out too quickly, though). If the cracking is due to the sudden removal of supporting media (Stormlight) causing stressthen it would make sense that perfect gems wouldn't crack, or would crack very very seldom, because stress would cause cracks along imperfections first. Even without imperfections, though, enough stress would eventually cause imperfections, and thus eventually they would crack. At least, that's how I think of it in my head. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalaksbreath Posted October 7, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 1 minute ago, RShara said: It's hard to say, because we don't know the exact reason why gems crack when used for Soulcasting, recharging Plate, etc. (I always imagine it as the same reason why hydrophane opals crack if they're dried out too quickly, though). If the cracking is due to the sudden removal of supporting media (Stormlight) causing stressthen it would make sense that perfect gems wouldn't crack, or would crack very very seldom, because stress would cause cracks along imperfections first. Even without imperfections, though, enough stress would eventually cause imperfections, and thus eventually they would crack. At least, that's how I think of it in my head. that's what I was thinking too I just wanted to see if I was off base or not. thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 It could also easily go the other way. The Stormlight might become more difficult to remove and end up damaging the crystal more in the possesses. Perhaps the imperfections help with the infusion drain by making it go faster and more painlessly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 But wouldn't the soulcasters have noticed that uncut gemstones broke less often? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twenty second of the sun Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 5 hours ago, Karger said: It could also easily go the other way. The Stormlight might become more difficult to remove and end up damaging the crystal more in the possesses. Perhaps the imperfections help with the infusion drain by making it go faster and more painlessly. Why would the spren keep the stormlight in perfect gems if they had no way of removing it without damaging the gem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 27 minutes ago, twenty second of the sun said: Why would the spren keep the stormlight in perfect gems if they had no way of removing it without damaging the gem Normal removal of stormlight does not break gemstones the way soulcasting does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalaksbreath Posted October 8, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 7 hours ago, Karger said: It could also easily go the other way. The Stormlight might become more difficult to remove and end up damaging the crystal more in the possesses. Perhaps the imperfections help with the infusion drain by making it go faster and more painlessly. that thought also crossed my mind but I don't think it will be that way because perfect gemstones would then have no benefit other than surviving the weeping. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 18 hours ago, RShara said: It's hard to say, because we don't know the exact reason why gems crack when used for Soulcasting, recharging Plate, etc. (I always imagine it as the same reason why hydrophane opals crack if they're dried out too quickly, though). If the cracking is due to the sudden removal of supporting media (Stormlight) causing stressthen it would make sense that perfect gems wouldn't crack, or would crack very very seldom, because stress would cause cracks along imperfections first. Even without imperfections, though, enough stress would eventually cause imperfections, and thus eventually they would crack. At least, that's how I think of it in my head. We know from the scene where they discovered the Crystal Archive that imperfectly cut gems physically vibrate due to the stormlight leakage (the ancients used that vibration to encode their messages) and Navani implies that the quality of the gem's Cut is what reduces that. That would entirely make sense as the mechanism that causes gems to crack, as repeated and/or long-term exposure to that sort of mechanical vibration will eventually break anything solid. If Perfect Gems have literally zero leakage they would not have to deal with any of that vibration stress. On the topic of these Perfect Gems eventually developing imperfections: Im reach waaay back to a college class I got a B- in, but I think that if they are as literally perfect (chemically perfect and perfect crystalline alignment) they would not actually be able to develop Imperfections. In any normal, non-idealized material, existing imperfections provide a stress concentration point at the imperfection (something that breaks the atomic crystal pattern, either a chemical impurity or a misalignment), and repeated stresses (like vibration cycles) cause tiny cracks to form at that concentration site and then those cracks slowly get larger and larger with each cycle, accumulating the damage. But in a truly Perfect crystal (the likes of which couldnt really exist in the real world) would have no such imperfections to provide a starting foothold, no place to accumulate the damage, so to break them you'd have to exceed the total strength of the crystal all at once. So that means (I think) that they would not ever break from overuse, though its still possible that they could be overloaded by a particularly large working. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMac716 Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 My question is more about what constitutes a "perfect gem" since by definition they require impurities to be different types of gems (from what I've read, no knowledge of geology personally). Iirc, Brandon has said that the color is more important than type since they're structurally similar. Does that mean a perfect sapphire is simply the exact shade or does it mean no cracks, or a combination of both? And if the color is so important, would a KR get more efficient use from using the gem that corresponds to their order? I've been away from the forums a long time but I haven't found much discussion about the gems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilphon Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 I mean, my personal instinct on this topic is 'given that the perfect gems are the only way we know of to get rid of the Unmade, risking one by trying something like this is a really bad idea'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 I am not ready to guess how perfect gemstones will effect things because I don't think we know what causes them to crack in the first place. If it is rapid removal of stormlight, radiants inhaling should crack gems regularly. And then you have shardplate regrowth/repair cracking gems and that isn't a fast process. We don't know what causes the cracks so determining how the gems cut factors in is guesswork based on guesswork. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalaksbreath Posted October 9, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 15 minutes ago, Calderis said: I am not ready to guess how perfect gemstones will effect things because I don't think we know what causes them to crack in the first place. If it is rapid removal of stormlight, radiants inhaling should crack gems regularly. And then you have shardplate regrowth/repair cracking gems and that isn't a fast process. We don't know what causes the cracks so determining how the gems cut factors in is guesswork based on guesswork. Good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 8 hours ago, CMac716 said: My question is more about what constitutes a "perfect gem" since by definition they require impurities to be different types of gems (from what I've read, no knowledge of geology personally). Iirc, Brandon has said that the color is more important than type since they're structurally similar. Does that mean a perfect sapphire is simply the exact shade or does it mean no cracks, or a combination of both? And if the color is so important, would a KR get more efficient use from using the gem that corresponds to their order? I've been away from the forums a long time but I haven't found much discussion about the gems The "Perfect" of a perfect Gemstone covers three things: Chemically Perfect, Structurally Perfect, and Perfect Cut. Per WOB all gemheart gems are Chemically perfect, meaning they do not have any trace elements that are not part of their ideal structure. In the case of the Ruby/Sapphire/Corundum split, Im guessing the color-causing trace elements are being treated as part of the Idealized version similar to Allomantic Alloys. Structurally perfect means the crystalline structure of the gem itself is without any crystalline flaws, having no geometric shifts, micro-cracks or misalignment. This seems to be the rarest quality. Perfect Cut is about the faceting and how that affects a gem's ability to hold storm-light better, but the specifics are basically hoodoo to me. Im assuming this is a skill-based thing, and I dont know if it's something that modern roshar is still capable of creating, or if it took ancient radiant/heraldic knowledge. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMac716 Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Quantus said: The "Perfect" of a perfect Gemstone covers three things: Chemically Perfect, Structurally Perfect, and Perfect Cut. Per WOB all gemheart gems are Chemically perfect, meaning they do not have any trace elements that are not part of their ideal structure. In the case of the Ruby/Sapphire/Corundum split, Im guessing the color-causing trace elements are being treated as part of the Idealized version similar to Allomantic Alloys. Structurally perfect means the crystalline structure of the gem itself is without any crystalline flaws, having no geometric shifts, micro-cracks or misalignment. This seems to be the rarest quality. Perfect Cut is about the faceting and how that affects a gem's ability to hold storm-light better, but the specifics are basically hoodoo to me. Im assuming this is a skill-based thing, and I dont know if it's something that modern roshar is still capable of creating, or if it took ancient radiant/heraldic knowledge. So if all gems are already perfect chemically, that should theoretically make it a lot easier for them to artificially create new perfect gems. Using lightweaving they could super heat it with lasers (iirc Brandon said they can create them) then using lashings to increase the weight of something on them to forge larger gems of that variety. To keep from causing chips and micro cracks the could use a living spren blade in the form of jewelry cutting tools. This is all theoretical and I think their a ways from this scientifically but maybe in the back 5 books they'll see a need for them and eventually get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 5 minutes ago, CMac716 said: So if all gems are already perfect chemically, that should theoretically make it a lot easier for them to artificially create new perfect gems. Using lightweaving they could super heat it with lasers (iirc Brandon said they can create them) then using lashings to increase the weight of something on them to forge larger gems of that variety. To keep from causing chips and micro cracks the could use a living spren blade in the form of jewelry cutting tools. This is all theoretical and I think their a ways from this scientifically but maybe in the back 5 books they'll see a need for them and eventually get there. Fun Fact that I learned from reruns of White Collar: Artificially created gems have fundamentally different grain structure than natural ones. Natural gems have linear crystal orientation, but artificial ones are grown around a tiny seed crystal so the grain becomes spherical with layers radiating outward from the initial crystal. I have to assume that the different grain structure would change all the cutting/faceting required to make it a Perfect Gem with the permanent storage capability, if not make it entirely impossible. The other challenge is the same one we have on Earth, which is the extreme purity required in both the raw materials and the furnace environment. Fabrial science would help (that selective gravity seeming fabrial for smoke or humidity look useful), though since it would be a problem we havent solved with awesome earth science it would likely take time and more industrial development to pull off. As an alternative, they might have better luck making a realmic Fabrial that mimics the natural process of Gemheart growth in rosharan creatures (described by WOB as a realmic leakage fro the Spiritual). That would at least get you past the Chemical Purity stage-gate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMac716 Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 56 minutes ago, Quantus said: Fun Fact that I learned from reruns of White Collar: Artificially created gems have fundamentally different grain structure than natural ones. Natural gems have linear crystal orientation, but artificial ones are grown around a tiny seed crystal so the grain becomes spherical with layers radiating outward from the initial crystal. I have to assume that the different grain structure would change all the cutting/faceting required to make it a Perfect Gem with the permanent storage capability, if not make it entirely impossible. The other challenge is the same one we have on Earth, which is the extreme purity required in both the raw materials and the furnace environment. Fabrial science would help (that selective gravity seeming fabrial for smoke or humidity look useful), though since it would be a problem we havent solved with awesome earth science it would likely take time and more industrial development to pull off. As an alternative, they might have better luck making a realmic Fabrial that mimics the natural process of Gemheart growth in rosharan creatures (described by WOB as a realmic leakage fro the Spiritual). That would at least get you past the Chemical Purity stage-gate. I agree that completely artificial gemstones would have their own problems, but I'm referring to basically melting down existing gemstones and reforming them as one. I'm sure it would require insane heats but possibly doable given magic. lol Also, white collar was fantastic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, CMac716 said: I agree that completely artificial gemstones would have their own problems, but I'm referring to basically melting down existing gemstones and reforming them as one. I'm sure it would require insane heats but possibly doable given magic. lol Also, white collar was fantastic That's more or less what happens when you make them artificially, as I understand it. The only difference would be using the the ground up gems rather than purified aluminum. Though, now that I actually say it, the fact that aluminum is the raw material needed would certainly cause a whole host of complications if they're using any sort of farbial-tech to pull it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMac716 Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 56 minutes ago, Quantus said: That's more or less what happens when you make them artificially, as I understand it. The only difference would be using the the ground up gems rather than purified aluminum. Though, now that I actually say it, the fact that aluminum is the raw material needed would certainly cause a whole host of complications if they're using any sort of farbial-tech to pull it off. https://www.alexandrite.net/chapters/chapter7/synthetic-gemstone-growth-techniques.html This article was insightful. My idea doesn't seem very plausible after skimming through it. I like the idea of using fabrials to replicate the natural Rosharan gemhearts though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 9 minutes ago, CMac716 said: https://www.alexandrite.net/chapters/chapter7/synthetic-gemstone-growth-techniques.html This article was insightful. My idea doesn't seem very plausible after skimming through it. I like the idea of using fabrials to replicate the natural Rosharan gemhearts though Nice! Thanks for that, it looks like the process I was familiar with is the Vapor Deposition method, though it's working a bit differently that I was imagining; I think my mental image of the process was a combination of the Vapor deposition and the basic melt process. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 @Quantus considering the way that gemhearts grow in the fauna of Roshar, I think the crystalline structure is actually likely to be closer to that of an artificial gem already. The gemheart would grow in size with the creature, wouldn't you think? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 (edited) 15 hours ago, Calderis said: @Quantus considering the way that gemhearts grow in the fauna of Roshar, I think the crystalline structure is actually likely to be closer to that of an artificial gem already. The gemheart would grow in size with the creature, wouldn't you think? That's an excellent point. I think I could see it either way, depending on how the Spiritual Leakage thing works. I could see it acting as an accumulation in the Physical Realm over their lifetime, where the gemstone leaks through in layers like a pearl inside them, and that could easily have the curved grain. On the other hand, in light of their form-based shapeshifting, I could also see the gem being more a part of their present Ideal and simply be...emitted(?) whole from the Spiritual along with the rest of their physical forms and based on their "present State" design from their Spiritual Ideal. In that case it would have whatever grains structure is considered Ideal by Roshar, and even that could probably go either way since most of Geology seems supernaturally whacked on Roshar. EDIT: Not sure why I was thinking specifically of Singers (with the Form stuff) rather than the average chull/greatshell/etc. Edited October 10, 2019 by Quantus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMac716 Posted October 11, 2019 Report Share Posted October 11, 2019 (edited) So, I was reading some other posts regarding the different types of surges, and came up with a much simpler solution from my understanding of cohesion and tension. Cohesion allows a person to break down the weak bonds and essentially melt an object, that's what caused the ground to become liquid like and Kal to sink in. Tension allows one to make it rigid, to realign the molecules into a stronger crystalline structure. This is what then caused the ground to become solid and Kal's feet to be stuck. So, unless you're unable to use any surges on gems directly, couldn't you use the first to break the bonds and tension to realign them perfectly? I know it's not possible to soulcast gemstones, but not sure if they resist surges completely.... Just more idle thoughts. Lol Edited October 11, 2019 by CMac716 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted October 11, 2019 Report Share Posted October 11, 2019 59 minutes ago, CMac716 said: Cohesion allows a person to break down the weak bonds and essentially melt an object, that's what caused the ground to become liquid like and Kal to sink in. Tension allows one to make it rigid, to realign the molecules into a stronger crystalline structure. This is what then caused the ground to become solid and Kal's feet to be stuck. All that's required for what happened with Kal is Cohesion. Input to make the ground liquid (without actually causing a state change because magic), and cease the input to become solid again. Tension is not needed. As to using those Surges to create perfect gems, I can definitely see that as a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMac716 Posted October 11, 2019 Report Share Posted October 11, 2019 I just figured removing the cohesion would return it to it's original structure, tension would actually force it into the perfect form instead. I also wonder if it would be possible to just soften it, shape it instead of cutting it, then solidify it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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