Kaladin's Love Life

[Config2]

Someone above said it, but I'm pretty sure that Brandon has commented that he didn't really love the resolution of the love triangle, or the resolution of OB at all. He had more post Thaylen stuff planned, but it suffered from some trimming.

I'm personally pretty sure that Kaladin is over it, and disagree with the whole "lightweaver magic" comment that people make. It's never really said explicitly that his fondness for her was due to mystical elements. He says, "I felt something, a lightening of my burdens when she was around." To me that speaks more to Shallan's general ability to disregard her problems. It's something that Kaladin envies. Or her sense of humor, which he gets and appreciates. Also, liking someone because they remind you of a sibling you're fond of is a fine, non-mystical reason which you might like someone. It's not necessarily linked to both of them becoming possible lightweavers.

That said, we'll continue to get mentions to it, and possible future discussion. If you look at the relationship between Marissi and Wax in Mistborn part 2, you get some good idea of the comments that might crop up. I think it is more than likely that Sanderson just wanted to get the triangle out of the way, having decided that there is enough drama in SA without the need for a relatively minor thing like that. Or that he wanted to move the drama away from specifically Kaladin and Shallan. They are both still main characters, and will have plenty of screen time, but I think Sanderson might look to their parts for cuts instead of diminishing the flashback characters as they come and go. He  definitely wants to avoid and/or reduce the bloating he felt with Oathbringer.

I did forget about the Tarah sighting. I'm not sure what will happen there. She is probably more likely than anyone on my previous list, except for the "unknown" placeholder at number one. That being said, we really don't know that much about her, which might put her more in the "unknown or currently minor character list."

I'm pretty sure that Lyn and him are not a future pairing. She is fated for another bridge four member.

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Regarding the Kaladin/Azure ship - based on their personalities and interactions in OB I sort of like the idea, but I'm hesitant about it for a few reasons.  The first issue to me is the apparent age gap.  I don't have an exact source on this, but isn't there 100+ years in age gap between Kaladin and Azure?  I got the sense that her life was extended significantly because of her magic and also the process of worldhopping and that the events of the Stormlight Archive take place longer than a normal human's life span after Warbreaker.  I may be totally off on this.  Another point is that I don't think Azure intends to stick around on Roshar, I got the sense in OB that she was planning to leave the planet.

The gap is between 80 and 150 by most estimates, but she may be returned, so functionally younger. The whole age gap thing doesn't seem to bother Sanderson a ton also. Siri and Susebron are 33 years apart in age, despite Susebron being emotionally younger via isolation. Plus these kinds of relations aren't unheard of in fantasy, where a 500 year old elf might marry a 30 year old human. As for Azure leaving, it's possible she'll stay. She probably doesn't have a reason to go back. If she is returned, she could live like Vasher using stormlight. If she is just immortal because of the number of breaths she has, then staying for Kaladin's lifetime, or anyone elses for that matter, isn't really an inconvenience for her.

[agrabes]

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

But I think he did say it out loud to syl.... I would copy it but my phone does not copy it..

So I quote

He says” I don’t think I loved her syl.. I felt something. A lightening of my burdens when I am near her. She reminds me of someone

Right, sorry I should have clarified.  He does say the line about Tien out loud to Syl.  But just before that he thinks in his mind that he is not upset at all that Shallan and Adolin have gotten together.  His first reaction is to say something like how he found he couldn't be bitter about it, as in he thought he should be upset but realized that he wasn't.  I dunno, this last several posts of this thread has been cathartic for me on this topic I think.  I'm starting to come around to the point where I could accept that Sanderson's intent was to show that Kaladin did some thinking and realized he really didn't love Shallan.  Nothing leading up to that one scene showed that he was thinking like that, but I could accept that was the intent and if it was the intent it's an acceptable end to the triangle.  For it to work for me, there would have needed to be at least one additional Kaladin/Syl talk scene about this, but I also don't see where or how that could have been added realistically in OB.

Maybe Sanderson will throw us (me, selfishly lol) a bone in SA4 with a short scene where Syl says to Kaladin, "Hey are you really sure you never loved her??" and he actually thinks it through and expresses real feelings of how he came to that conclusion.

[Honorless]

Kaladin doesn't need to be in a relationship in order to be happy, he has gone through a lot and needs to take some time out for himself.

I don't think Shallan, in particular is good for him. Despite everything that they had to go through in WoR, she was still openly dismissive of him and his problems. She is still very hung up about the class structure, calling Kaladin 'peasant', 'Bridgeboy' and 'moody'. I understand her situation but again, she is not ready for a relationship. Adolin might be good for her, but I still think that marriage happened far too soon.

I don't think I'd be comfortable with a relationship between Kaladin and Jasnah. There's already a power disparity between Kaladin and the Kholins, this would just not end well for Kal.

For Syl, I don't think that's gonna work out. They already have a very different and much closer form of intimacy, plus physical relationship with a Cognitive entity is going to get complicated.

What Kal needs right now is friendship, not more responsibility, which is what a romantic relationship is.

[Aon Tia]

18 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I don't think Shallan, in particular is good for him. Despite everything that they had to go through in WoR, she was still openly dismissive of him and his problems. She is still very hung up about the class structure, calling Kaladin 'peasant', 'Bridgeboy' and 'moody'. I understand her situation but again, she is not ready for a relationship. Adolin might be good for her, but I still think that marriage happened far too soon.

Agree with you here.. And I am worried about Adolin and shallan too. I hope that she feels deeply for him, but frankly, have not seen any evidence of that in the books. She has not really expressed any deep feelings towards Adolin. At the end of OB, when she told adolin that she chose him over kaladin, that was a moment for her to really express her love for adolin in a meaningful manner. But, we all know, how she said it. It was hardly the heartfelt confession that i was looking for. So, adolin might be good for her but is she good for him? not sure..

Kaladin and Jasnah, i really doubt would happen.. 

[Config2]

3 hours ago, Honorless said:

Kaladin doesn't need to be in a relationship in order to be happy, he has gone through a lot and needs to take some time out for himself.

I don't think Shallan, in particular is good for him. Despite everything that they had to go through in WoR, she was still openly dismissive of him and his problems. She is still very hung up about the class structure, calling Kaladin 'peasant', 'Bridgeboy' and 'moody'. I understand her situation but again, she is not ready for a relationship. Adolin might be good for her, but I still think that marriage happened far too soon.

I don't think I'd be comfortable with a relationship between Kaladin and Jasnah. There's already a power disparity between Kaladin and the Kholins, this would just not end well for Kal.

For Syl, I don't think that's gonna work out. They already have a very different and much closer form of intimacy, plus physical relationship with a Cognitive entity is going to get complicated.

What Kal needs right now is friendship, not more responsibility, which is what a romantic relationship is.

Relationship are both more and less responsibility. In a good relationship, the two players support each other where they are weak. Very few relationship are equal in this regard, but I've found most of mine to be close enough, such that I don't generally feel like I have more responsibilities (though not the same responsibilities) than when I started (beside being a better person, which is what I should be doing anyway). That being said, Kaladin doesn't need a relationship where he is noticeable more resilient than his partner. We don't need him worrying about yet another person. In Mistborn Era 2, there is a segment where the main character just drops off side characters on top of a building so we as the reader don't have to worry about them during the action.

Shallan is not good for him. I don't actually think Shallan is good for anyone. She is classist as you mentioned, immature, and disrespectful (of everyone, including herself). The best she has been with people is with Adolin so far; she gets him to think about things he never considered, and he helps her to be stable. Not the worst trade-off. I should mention that the bad parts of her are 100% a product of her circumstances, not innately bad things. She has the capacity to be much more than she is right now.

I wont comment on most of the Jasnah+Kaladin stuff, since we've hashed that out, but I don't think there is a power disparity. Kaladin is the head of radiant order. That makes him one of the most powerful people on the human side of politics. He doesn't choose to exercise that power, but he does have it. Dalinar is his boss, but Dalinar is the most powerful man on the planet. Jasnah is really closer to his level of power, as she is a de iure head of a radiant order, but is one of one (or at least Ivory suspects so). To compensate, she is a queen. But of a nation in exile. Most of her power comes from her personality and bearing, not actual power; just as Kaladin's perceived lack of power comes from his behavior. Worth noting that Jasnah is 100% aware that dark-eyes are not inherently worse than light-eyes, so she doesn't perceive a difference there.

I think Syl would work out. In a sense it is already working out. They have a closer bond than most relationships. If they chose to make that relationship romantic it wouldn't be much of an additional burden. Regarding the physical intimacy, they have the minimum required interaction on the PR, and could be actually intimate on the CR. This is assuming that the war is over, and the perpendiculary in the Horneater Peaks is an easy transition. Kaladin would probably like to live in the Horneater Peaks anyway with a huge pseudo-family in Rock's clan and easy access to the sky. 

[Honorless]

8 minutes ago, Config2 said:

I wont comment on most of the Jasnah+Kaladin stuff, since we've hashed that out, but I don't think there is a power disparity. Kaladin is the head of radiant order. That makes him one of the most powerful people on the human side of politics. He doesn't choose to exercise that power, but he does have it. Dalinar is his boss, but Dalinar is the most powerful man on the planet. Jasnah is really closer to his level of power, as she is a de jure head of a radiant order, but is one of one (or at least Ivory suspects so). To compensate, she is a queen. But of a nation in exile. Most of her power comes from her personality and bearing, not actual power; just as Kaladin's perceived lack of power comes from his behavior. Worth noting that Jasnah is 100% aware that dark-eyes are not inherently worse than light-eyes, so she doesn't perceive a difference there.

I think Syl would work out. In a sense it is already working out. They have a closer bond than most relationships. If they chose to make that relationship romantic it wouldn't be much of an additional burden. Regarding the physical intimacy, they have the minimum required interaction on the PR, and could be actually intimate on the CR. This is assuming that the war is over, and the perpendiculary in the Horneater Peaks is an easy transition. Kaladin would probably like to live in the Horneater Peaks anyway with a huge pseudo-family in Rock's clan and easy access to the sky. 

She isn't just the de facto head of an Order (rather than de jure) but now also the Queen of Alethkar, even in exile, that nation commands a vast army (even now after the War of Reckoning over the Shattered Plains and the Everstorm and the Battle of Thaylen City) and they control Urithiru. How Kaladin views his own role as a soldier of Kholin implicitly would give Jasnah some power. My main issue is one of age here, as well as trauma. Whatever trauma Jasnah faced, she has some control over herself, Kaladin on the other hand, is depressed. We also see how he still saw his childhood crush in a favourable light in OB.

Kaladin and Syl are too... intimate for physical or romantic intimacy to compare. I don't think the spren reproduce sexually either. I think of them as soulmates but not soulmates.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Honorless

[Config2]

2 minutes ago, Honorless said:

She isn't just the de facto head of an Order (rather than de jure) but now also the Queen of Alethkar. How Kaladin views his own role as a soldier of Kholin implicitly would give Jasnah some power. My main issue is one of age here, as well as trauma. Whatever trauma Jasnah faced, she has some control over herself, Kaladin on the other hand, is depressed. We also see how he still saw his childhood crush in a favourable light in OB.

Kaladin and Syl are too... intimate for physical or romantic intimacy to compare. I don't think the spren reproduce sexually either. I think of them as soulmates but not soulmates.

She is the de iure head because she is "lawfully" the head of the order. That being said, there isn't actually an order of elsecallers. Just her. De facto is true as well, but doesn't carry the same connotation of "lack of substance" that de iure does. There are increases to power as a head of a dismembered order, but they are very minor compared to the most, or second most, populous order in the Windrunners. The concept of how they view themselves as a factor in their power is definitely in Jasnah's favor. As for Queenliness, she is queen in exile, and as per the arrangement that Dalinar made with Ehlokar (though it won't carry directly), she has no actual power while in Urithiru. So I suppose, in an absolute sense, they are pretty close to equal. If you factor in bearing and presentation, Jasnah has the clear edge. The only person who supercedes her is Dalinar in that regard.

As for Syl, you aren't wrong. I think those things (Nahel bond and romantic relationship) could run parallel to each other, not compete. You think that they are part of the same space and therefore would compete (correct me if I'm wrong). We have no indication that either opinion is correct other than personal feeling. As for sexual reproduction; I would be cautious in implying that the possibility of sexual reproduction is a precursor to a romantic relationship.

That being said, Syl can change her body on the physical realm with thought. I think that she could probably achieve that in the CR to a degree (I don't think she could become a cloud, like the PR, but she could probably become closer to human physiology, as it doesn't run too counter to her spiritual self). Plus, while I think physical intimacy is a key component of a romantic relationship, sexual intimacy may not be. In other words, hugs make the world go round, sex is just a bonus. And Syl has literally hugged Kaladin on the CR.

[Honorless]

1 minute ago, Config2 said:

She is the de iure head because she is "lawfully" the head of the order. That being said, there isn't actually an order of elsecallers. Just her. De facto is true as well, but doesn't carry the same connotation of "lack of substance" that de iure does. There are increases to power as a head of a dismembered order, but they are very minor compared to the most, or second most, populous order in the Windrunners. The concept of how they view themselves as a factor in their power is definitely in Jasnah's favor. As for Queenliness, she is queen in exile, and as per the arrangement that Dalinar made with Ehlokar (though it won't carry directly), she has no actual power while in Urithiru. So I suppose, in an absolute sense, they are pretty close to equal. If you factor in bearing and presentation, Jasnah has the clear edge. The only person who supercedes her is Dalinar in that regard.

As for Syl, you aren't wrong. I think those things (Nahel bond and romantic relationship) could run parallel to each other, not compete. You think that they are part of the same space and therefore would compete (correct me if I'm wrong). We have no indication that either opinion is correct other than personal feeling. As for sexual reproduction; I would be cautious in implying that the possibility of sexual reproduction is a precursor to a romantic relationship.

That being said, Syl can change her body on the physical realm with thought. I think that she could probably achieve that in the CR to a degree (I don't think she could become a cloud, like the PR, but she could probably become closer to human physiology, as it doesn't run too counter to her spiritual self). Plus, while I think physical intimacy is a key component of a romantic relationship, sexual intimacy may not be. In other words, hugs make the world go round, sex is just a bonus. And Syl has literally hugged Kaladin on the CR.

well, let's not squabble over details so long as there's a very long stick between any romantic relationship between Kaladin and Jasnah

I wasn't implying sexual reproduction or even sexual attraction as a prerequisite for romance (asexual people exist), just that Syl probably wouldn't have any sexual interest in Kaladin, being a spren who are said to be created rather than born. What they have is so much more than romance and I think it would be a bit too much to add another point of emotional intimacy between them, that would just turn Syl into a crutch for Kaladin. Also note that Kaladin himself is interested in a sexual relationship so I don't think Syl is the right option for him.

[Aon Tia]

26 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Also note that Kaladin himself is interested in a sexual relationship so I don't think Syl is the right option for him.

And syl wants kaladin to have such a relationship too.. I think spren themselves are asexual beings.. 

Both there souls are already merged via nahel bond right? They are already connected in a way that no two humans can. I don’t think a romantic angle will enhance their relationship anymore.. only kaladin’s swearing his other two oaths can deepen their bond more.

[Config2]

32 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I wasn't implying sexual reproduction or even sexual attraction as a prerequisite for romance (asexual people exist), just that Syl probably wouldn't have any sexual interest in Kaladin, being a spren who are said to be created rather than born. What they have is so much more than romance and I think it would be a bit too much to add another point of emotional intimacy between them, that would just turn Syl into a crutch for Kaladin. Also note that Kaladin himself is interested in a sexual relationship so I don't think Syl is the right option for him.

I didn't think so, but it's good to clarify your claim for posterity. Regarding Syl's interest in a sexual relationship; I'm not convinced that she probably wouldn't have much sexual interest. There is a passage, after Kaladin investigates the grain silo in OB, where Syl talks about how she has been watching people have sex for research. There are (at least) two ways to read this.

First is as humor. Syl finds the idea of sex as bizarre and tawdry. She is teasing Kaladin about how gross human being are. That sort of idea. An aside to the reader about how sex is messy and gross from an objective lens.

The Second is as part of development. Syl finds the idea of sex a bizarre, but interesting. She finds it gross, as a human child might, but her opinion may change with time. We know that she understands and seems to use physical interaction as a human would (hugging Kaladin). To me that indicates a potential (only a potential currently) that sex might be a concept she could become familiar with and/or desire.

Kaladin also is interested in a sexual relationship, because he is 90% of humans, but its not the driving force for him. He isn't sex maniac or anything, and doesn't really think any sexual thoughts. Shallan, for example, has comments about kissing Adolin, and some more R-rated thoughts during the end of OB, whereas Kaladin doesn't have those types of thoughts about Shallan during his flirtation with her. Even when they are hiding from the Highstorm in the Chasms he doesn't mention it (as far as I can remember). I would wager he is more interested in the emotional intimacy of a relationship than the sex, and it wouldn't be a deal-breaker for him to have a non-sexualized relationship.

Personally, I think they are already deeply dependent on each other. They both are used as a crutch by the other. Syl for access to the world and implementation of her ideals (she empowers him as a method to make the world more honorable, in theory; in practice, the bond is more two directional than that). Kaladin for companionship and a guiding moral compass in what he perceives as a moral-less world. 

 

As an aside, love is very complicated and very irrational. I don't claim to understand it, or what really makes a relationship successful. Frankly I'm not sure how Kaladin and Syl's relationship would change if they suddenly said they loved each other. I'm not even sure what it would like as a scene. Most of the relationships I've been in started as friendships, and still were friendship as they happened. There is also more, but defining what that more is, that's the problem. Maybe I am less connected in a relationship than most, but closer to my friends than most, so the line is blurred. Maybe that would be the case for our characters under discussion.

I think Traveler might be right that a romantic angle wouldn't deepen the relationship. I think that makes it a reason for it to happen, not a reason for it to not happen. 

Traveler also mentioned that Syl wants a relationship for Kaladin. What she wants is for him to be happy, and sees a relationship as a vehicle for that (this is paraphrased). If he was 100% certain that a relationship with her would make him happy, than it would satisfy her goal in finding him a partner.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Config2
ninja-d by Traveller

[Greywatch]

@Config2 I agree a lot! I especially was struck by the idea that Kaladin and Syl's relationship wouldn't change that much if they became romantic, which I think I have to agree with. They already have a great relationship.

 

[agrabes]

On 11/15/2019 at 2:30 AM, Honorless said:

Kaladin doesn't need to be in a relationship in order to be happy, he has gone through a lot and needs to take some time out for himself.

I don't think Shallan, in particular is good for him. Despite everything that they had to go through in WoR, she was still openly dismissive of him and his problems. She is still very hung up about the class structure, calling Kaladin 'peasant', 'Bridgeboy' and 'moody'. I understand her situation but again, she is not ready for a relationship. Adolin might be good for her, but I still think that marriage happened far too soon.

 

On 11/15/2019 at 6:26 AM, Config2 said:

Shallan is not good for him. I don't actually think Shallan is good for anyone. She is classist as you mentioned, immature, and disrespectful (of everyone, including herself). The best she has been with people is with Adolin so far; she gets him to think about things he never considered, and he helps her to be stable. Not the worst trade-off. I should mention that the bad parts of her are 100% a product of her circumstances, not innately bad things. She has the capacity to be much more than she is right now.

I think you're being a little hard on Shallan.  I can't say she doesn't do the things you say she does, because she does.  But, I believe most of the things she's doing in the way she talks and interacts with other people are sort of a screen to keep from showing her true self and to do what she feels is necessary to appear powerful and in charge.  I do think the one that really sticks to her is immature.  She is immature and believes that she needs to put on a certain face to be accepted in society.  You can see that there are times she has her walls up and times she doesn't.  We should remember she is only 17 in Rosharan years (something like 19-20 in Earth years?) during the series, so I think as she gets more life experience she will grow up.  A lot of the reason she could be called classist is because she is highly motivated to protect and improve her family's position.  I wouldn't necessarily call that classist (or at least not a classist motivation), but it definitely can come off that way.  She seems mean spirited at times because she likes to engage in verbal battles.  I don't see anything wrong with that, especially considering that she can take it as good as she gives it (see her conversations with Kaladin where he responds back in kind).  Not everyone is going to like that kind of humor or personality, but I appreciate it.  I don't like her puns (ugghh, why does Sanderson love puns?? his greatest weakness haha), but her biting humor I like.  It doesn't come across as mean spirited to me, it's all a game of who can cleverly walk the closest to the line without going over.  You also notice she only plays it with Kaladin because she knows he's an equal player.  She doesn't do it with Adolin (or others) because he doesn't have the kind of personality to appreciate it.

I do agree she's probably not ready for a relationship, or at least not a marriage.  

 

Regarding the Syl/Kaladin ship, I can respect the people who favor it but it feels wrong to me.  I think it was discussed earlier in this thread, or elsewhere, but it feels almost incestuous for there to be a relationship between Syl and Kaladin.  Their bond and relationship feels very familial.  Like, early on Kaladin is sort of the father who teaches Syl about the world and helps her understand what humans are like and why people do the things they do.  Then, it's more like a big brother little sister relationship.  It's moving more and more toward a relationship of equals, but still has that family aspect.  For me, any kind of romance between the two of them would be a violation of that familial closeness.

[Honorless]

I do recognize Shallan's situation actually and I like her as a character. I am only considering her from a relationship viewpoint here, however, and I do not think she is ready for it.

Me and @Michael Marssen have talked about her situation before:

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Shallan was the light of Way of Kings for me. Her interactions with Jasnah and Kabsal were the high points between Kaladin's and Dalinar's crumbling sanity. A lot of people, though started to hate her due to her casual racism and elitism (her family's "destitution" compared to the Bridgemen's "wealth", the eye colour changing thing while with Tyn, the boots scene, her thoughts on peasants and women, her disregard for Kaladin's trauma, how she referred to Kaladin and Renarin; her treatment of Kaladin didn't change much after everything that went through in the chasms, later on the same after Elhokar's death)

Especially considering her background, her openness is already on the good side in my books. But I can see how she can be problematic when viewed through the lens of our times in those situations.

Plus, after Book 1 she became less perfect, less akin to a video game character min-maxing to reach great heights and became more realistic. Kaladin evolved throughout his journey in book 1, then did so again in book 2, while Shallan in comparison didn't. She started the process of breaking down instead of getting stronger. We find out about her past, but she's still not an open book: the very first flashback chapter starts after a pivotal moment. Many readers were quite frustrated with her. Imagine though, if Kaladin's character development finished completely in book 1 with nothing more for the next nine books?! Some people also felt that compared to Kaladin, and later Dalinar, she had very little tragedy. As if it were a competition! Her mother tried to kill her, instead Shallan killed her in self-defense, her father took the blame and went crazy, he physically beat up her brothers but not her leaving her with severe guilt and psychological trauma, then she had to kill her own father. The revelation about her losing Ideals, of having already bonded Pattern and now having to re-bond him was a saving grace for her character for many readers but the nail in the coffin for others.

Though personally, Adolin is an example of someone who does much better despite what we'd expect of someone living in their time.

Shallan is simply doing the best she can. People seem to want a hero more than a realistic character *sighs*

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... all of that is a product of her mental and psychological problems, the unending need of shaking her insecurities out and try to be something else, something better than Shallan. And she felt bad. She didn't wanted the kid to end up dead, or hurt people. Shallan is not a bad person. But the only way she knows to fix herself is to use others as tools (I'd say 50% unintentionally and 50% intentionally), and that makes her arrogant. She could be better.

And that brings me to her best. Shallan inspires. Shallan lifts up.

Shallan makes other feel good, forget about their problems, be better. From Kaladin to Adolin, going through the deserter soldiers like Gaz to the cart driver Bluth during her journey through the Frostlands. Shallan makes people feel better, which I think is the ultimate goal of a Lightweaver, to inspire and smile when no one is capable of smiling anymore. As Kaladin says "and the she smiled. She smiled anyway", and that make him feel better. Shallan has that effect on people.

I do recognize Shallan's uplifting nature, I'm also unwilling to disregard her selfish, mocking nature. I like her as a character but as a person, she is not ready for a relationship.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Honorless

[Config2]

5 minutes ago, agrabes said:

 

I think you're being a little hard on Shallan.  I can't say she doesn't do the things you say she does, because she does.  But, I believe most of the things she's doing in the way she talks and interacts with other people are sort of a screen to keep from showing her true self and to do what she feels is necessary to appear powerful and in charge.  I do think the one that really sticks to her is immature.  She is immature and believes that she needs to put on a certain face to be accepted in society.  You can see that there are times she has her walls up and times she doesn't.  We should remember she is only 17 in Rosharan years (something like 19-20 in Earth years?) during the series, so I think as she gets more life experience she will grow up.  A lot of the reason she could be called classist is because she is highly motivated to protect and improve her family's position.  I wouldn't necessarily call that classist (or at least not a classist motivation), but it definitely can come off that way.  She seems mean spirited at times because she likes to engage in verbal battles.  I don't see anything wrong with that, especially considering that she can take it as good as she gives it (see her conversations with Kaladin where he responds back in kind).  Not everyone is going to like that kind of humor or personality, but I appreciate it.  I don't like her puns (ugghh, why does Sanderson love puns?? his greatest weakness haha), but her biting humor I like.  It doesn't come across as mean spirited to me, it's all a game of who can cleverly walk the closest to the line without going over.  You also notice she only plays it with Kaladin because she knows he's an equal player.  She doesn't do it with Adolin (or others) because he doesn't have the kind of personality to appreciate it.

I do agree she's probably not ready for a relationship, or at least not a marriage.  

 

Her Classism is not an active thing. She doesn't think a specific dark-eyes is any less than a light-eyes. However, she doesnt realize that by not combating that mentality as a light-eyes, she is supporting that system. She doesn't blink at her servants being dark-eyed, and would be surprised if they were light-eyed. It's not the worst mentality they have, but it is half the reason why the current social problems exist in Alethkar.

I think Shallan eventually could be great in a relationship, and I don't blame her for being young. But she is young as you mention.

I disagree that she only engages with her equals. She is getting better at it, as Jasnah tries to get her to be, but isn't there yet.

Regarding the respectful part; its not all her. She hides from her problems too much for her to know when a quip isn't appropriate. Mostly she needs to respect herself more. The original her. She claims to know her strengths and weaknesses enough to create personalities to fill the gaps, isn't aware enough to know when those personalities end and she begins. Being confident in yourself is really important in a relationship, and I think Adolin will discover that as he encounters the downsides of an unsure partner.

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Regarding the Syl/Kaladin ship, I can respect the people who favor it but it feels wrong to me.  I think it was discussed earlier in this thread, or elsewhere, but it feels almost incestuous for there to be a relationship between Syl and Kaladin.  Their bond and relationship feels very familial.  Like, early on Kaladin is sort of the father who teaches Syl about the world and helps her understand what humans are like and why people do the things they do.  Then, it's more like a big brother little sister relationship.  It's moving more and more toward a relationship of equals, but still has that family aspect.  For me, any kind of romance between the two of them would be a violation of that familial closeness.

To me its not so much incestuous, but potentially predatory. You have that scene with Shallan stating that a Chaperone who believes everything she tells him makes for an ineffective Chaperone. Kaladin certainly has the role of educator and guardian for Syl, and she by nature is innocent and trusting. For him to take advantage of that would be wrong. She would have to grow more for there to be a relationship I was comfortable. Honestly the relationship between Siri and Suscebron is similar. As his only source of knowledge about the world, it's wrong for her to do anything realistically. The only reason it is ok is that we as the reader know that Siri is sincere in her affection, and not much more worldly that him to begin with.

If Syl was to grow, to the level Ivory is, for example, where she is fully realized entity; and they both treat each other as more equal, then it wouldn't be necessarily predatory. Especially since we are privy to their thoughts if we need reassurance that it is a moral relationship.