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Kaladin's Love Life


Merlin

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@Pathfinder

I don't want you to drop the conversation, this is fun, intelligent (at from my perspective, maybe you think I'm dumb), discussion, and I like talking with people who are passionate about a subject. You speak with certainty and conviction; I think these boards, in an attempt to maintain a polite environment, sometimes have too much backtracking. You've found a point and are holding to it. You wrote essentially a full length essay in your linked post, which has some wonderful points and great analysis. I am not remotely offended or intimidated by your responses. That being said, if you don't want to comment further that's OK too.

Regarding the Linked thread; I find a lot of it excellent. In general, however, you ascribe thoughts and feelings to Jasnah which are unknown. I wont claim I read the whole thread, but did get through most of the OP. You take observations from the text, which are already filtered through a biased narrator in Shallan, and attribute a fair amount of "inside" perspective. Much of it I agree with, and you shouldn't assume I don't view Jasnah as a deep character because I think she would benefit from close relationships. However, it is as much speculation as this thread, and well supported as it is, isn't an absolute truth to everyone. Your concept of Jasnah as a character is far more well supported than the faint concept of Kaladin x Jasnah ship, but only some portions of a possible relation between them contradict the character you laid out. They are not mutually exclusive.

As for how the thread has "shifted to trying to convince you" that's only fair. You are definitely are the most certain and engaged person who doesn't feel the ship is realistic. By having that opinion, and wanting to defend it, you do invite some amount of challenge. In a sense, you defending your heretical beliefs, not proselytizing them. 

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Kaladin and Azure. 

 

 

I've been considering this for over a year now. Vivenna x Kaladin is certainly worth further thought, although we haven't heard a lot about her* yet, so I am uncertain.

*At least not in the SA

I'm not sure how OK it is to talk about Warbringer here, but I think there are some solid points for this pairing. Vivenna and Kaladin certainly have similar notions of betrayal, and both love lost causes. However, on a deeper level, Vivenna has a strong desire to protect Siri, and likely is performing some sort of protective function by hunting Nightblood, but doesn't have the same all encompassing focus on it like Kaladin. She has her own, as of yet unrevealed, motivations for certain actions. The biggest surface level knock on their relationship (her abandoning her "duty" and not going to Thaylen City), is something that Kaladin could definitely forgive. So for me, this book is still open, but seems less likely than a couple of others.

I guess I'd list our probability of characters becoming romantically involved as follows:

1. Someone we haven't met (I think that the there is a high chance we wont see him with anyone on screen so far. Or someone who is very minor currently, like horse lady)

2. Syl (It's been a while since I mentioned this, but there has definitely been what I consider flirting between them)

3. Laral (We've seen a couple of hints, but they could be red herrings, and I am 100% sure that Roshone will be out of the picture at some point soon)

4. No one / it's never focused on (Entirely possible, could be a "learn to love himself" and we see him finally looking for a romantic partner at the very end)

5. Jasnah (They have complimentary strengths, for me at least)

6. Azure (They have similar backgrounds)

7. Shallan (this would be a late back five development at the earliest, with a dead Adolin and a lot of growth from both of them)

8. Anyone else. 

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On 11/8/2019 at 1:38 PM, Pathfinder said:

I am sorry but I feel you are miss-representing me, especially when you have practically said the same exact thing as I have, just in regards to Adolin and Shallan. I have posted your post and mine below side by side. If me expressing my opinion is the equivalency to me saying you have to think the way I do, then you have done the same. I do not understand why what I have said can be received in such a counter manner

 

You said:

I do agree with your perspective of what love is - not a feeling but a decision, a commitment, and an active effort.  I just don't see that any of that was built up in the Shallan/Adolin plot.  Throughout WoR and most of OB the relationship was sort of coasting along based on expectations of the engagement and not based on deep feelings or emotions for each other.  It also did not seem like either had a strong desire to be married to each other for less romantic reasons like family honor, etc.  They enjoyed each other's company and were physically attracted to each other, but never seemed like a pair that would have gotten together if it weren't for the fact that they were in an arranged engagement for political reasons before they ever met.  Shallan in particular seemed to care very little about her relationship and seemed to place it very low on her priority list.  She was never against it, but she was never trying to actively advance the relationship either.  The sudden choice of getting married which Shallan seemed to justify to herself based on deep feelings that Adolin was the one for her felt out of place.  There weren't any strong feelings shown on screen except in one scene and really only from Adolin's side.  It felt wrong and unearned to me.  Had Shallan's choice been justified based on the fact that she believes marrying Adolin is the right thing to do based on all the logical reasons (politics, already engaged, etc) and that they enjoy each other's company and can make the marriage work, then great.  That would have felt right and in context.  I didn't get that sense.

By contrast, Kaladin's feelings toward Shallan were well developed and built up slowly.  They were not simply placed together before they ever met, Kaladin made the active choice to pursue her at a meaningful cost to himself (at least in terms of romance) and developed feelings toward her completely of his own accord.  Shallan never had romantic feelings for Kaladin and that was also well written.  She actually actively thought about him and figured out how she felt over time on multiple occasions.

But, now that a month has passed on this one, I'll just say to each their own on this.  Different people pick up on different things and it seems like to some people they felt like there were a lot of hints and clues that Adolin and Shallan really wanted to be together.  I never got that sense, but that could just be my own tastes.

 

 

I said:

 

I guess I don't see the need. Why does Kaladin have to be the one to protect Gavinor? He has no familial connection. He did not bond with the child over time (like Skar and Drehy). He did not think of Gavinor when depressed over Kholinar. Skar and Drehy did a perfectly good job while Kaladin was off handling other issues. They handled things very well in a war zone. Why would Kaladin or anyone else think it has to be him to step up and guard Gavinor when Skar and Drehy can just as easily do so and have more of a reason to? Why wouldn't Jasnah give Skar and Drehy a commendation for going above and beyond in preserving the royal line. if anyone should be watching Gavinor, it should be his heroes Skar and Drehy. So I feel it artificially injects emotions in Kaladin towards Gavinor just to put him in a position to force two characters together. For myself you couldn't get more artificial. 

 

That is just one I posted, but I personally do not see the difference between how I spoke and how you spoke. You do not see any build up between Adolin and Shallan. The things people mentioned did not work for you. You explained why and ended it to each their own. I did not take what you said to mean others had to see things the way you do. My intention was not to do that either. 

 

edit: know what? never mind. I am done with this.

I wanted to let this drop completely and let this thread die of natural causes, but since others have written on this I'll just add that it's not my intent to shut you down or tell you you are being overly argumentative.  I personally felt you were telling us that we could not (or should not) speculate about how the Kaladin/Jasnah ship could happen in a way that would feel natural in context of the story and I didn't appreciate that.  I wanted to point out to you in good faith, with the assumption that you had good intentions, that it felt like you were trying to shut down discussion on that topic.  I didn't intend to derail the thread over it and I also don't intend to tell you you're a bad person or anything like that.  I really hate that we've even gone down this weird sidebar discussion.  I personally felt you were discussing a different topic than we were and were not realizing it.  I wasn't trying to call you out, I just wanted to get us all on the same page so we were discussing the same things in the same context.  It seems like I did a bad job of conveying what I wanted to say to you in the right way and it ended up with this rabbit hole and I will take the blame for that.  

So, all that said let's move on and talk about new things.

Regarding the Kaladin/Azure ship - based on their personalities and interactions in OB I sort of like the idea, but I'm hesitant about it for a few reasons.  The first issue to me is the apparent age gap.  I don't have an exact source on this, but isn't there 100+ years in age gap between Kaladin and Azure?  I got the sense that her life was extended significantly because of her magic and also the process of worldhopping and that the events of the Stormlight Archive take place longer than a normal human's life span after Warbreaker.  I may be totally off on this.  Another point is that I don't think Azure intends to stick around on Roshar, I got the sense in OB that she was planning to leave the planet.

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Looks like nobody's mentioned the possible Tarah sighting in OB yet, so I will since it's pretty relevant. There was a thread a while ago where somebody (I can't remember their username) pointed out something interesting during one of Shallan's POVs. It was when Ishnah first started teaching Vathah, Gaz, Red, all of them, and Shallan was disguised as Veil. When Shallan was showing off her ability to memorize everyone's appearance in the room, there is one person she makes a mistake with. A woman she thought was Thaylen was actually Alethi, but was wearing a Thaylen dress. And if you go back to Kaladin's flashback with Tarah, he mentions that she is partial to wearing Thaylen dresses. Furthermore, this woman is described as flirting with men, but not as if she were seriously interested. Instead, she looked as if she were "waiting for someone" if I remember the quote correctly. And it's reasonable to think that if Tarah is in Urithiru, she's heard of Kaladin, and might be hoping to stumble on him sometime. 
 
I think the Tarah sighting in OB makes it pretty likely she and Kaladin will go through an arc together, possibly romantic. Whether they’ll actually end up together... (shrug). 

However, I consider this ship much more likely than any other. I’ll try to go through each of the others and explain why I think they're less likely.

- I’m not a fan of Jasnah and Kaladin, but even if you are, you have to agree it’s entirely hypothetical at this point considering they’ve barely interacted at all. 

- Laral didn’t sound particularly interested in Kaladin when the met again. In fact, when he tried to apologize for where she ended up, she put him in his place. To me, it sounds like she’s definitely moved beyond their childhood “romance” if you could call it that. Besides, she’s married. 

- I don’t see any reason for why Lyn and Kaladin should end up together beside the fact that they’re both Windtunners. And it’d be cliche if the did get romantically involved. I agree with the people who think she could end up with somebody else in Bridge 4, just not Kaladin.

- I think people have also put forward Venli, Rysn, and even Syl. Venli doesn't even like humans in general, so... yeah. Not likely. Rysn is even more hypothetical than Kaladin since they aren't even aware of each other's existence. And Syl. People have already gone into why that is very, very, very unlikely, and also kind of unethical considering spren rely on their bondmate in a crucial way, to remain in the physical realm.

So while Kaladin and Tarah haven't seen each other in a long time, I think they're the most likely match-up outside of new characters that are introduced. Somebody voiced a concern earlier in the thread that she would seem to much like a gold digger for their relationship to work. But the fact that both of them had feelings for each other when they broke their relationship makes this a much lower hurdle, and I think Brandon is fully capable of pulling their relationship off if he wants to.

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@ILuvHats nice find about Tara.. I totally missed it in OB but I think you are right.. 

I have always said that I think Tara and Kaladin will get back together.. she is out there somewhere and had helped him at a tough time after tien’s death and Kaladin has already expressed his regret for how he had handled the whole thing.. 

I think if they were to meet again something is definitely possible.. I think Many people want Kaladin and Jasnah together because they are, our favourite male and female character in the series and both are single but I think it would be very cliche.. I don’t see any hint of that happening so far in the books. 

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17 hours ago, ILuvHats said:
Looks like nobody's mentioned the possible Tarah sighting in OB yet, so I will since it's pretty relevant. There was a thread a while ago where somebody (I can't remember their username) pointed out something interesting during one of Shallan's POVs. It was when Ishnah first started teaching Vathah, Gaz, Red, all of them, and Shallan was disguised as Veil. When Shallan was showing off her ability to memorize everyone's appearance in the room, there is one person she makes a mistake with. A woman she thought was Thaylen was actually Alethi, but was wearing a Thaylen dress. And if you go back to Kaladin's flashback with Tarah, he mentions that she is partial to wearing Thaylen dresses. Furthermore, this woman is described as flirting with men, but not as if she were seriously interested. Instead, she looked as if she were "waiting for someone" if I remember the quote correctly. And it's reasonable to think that if Tarah is in Urithiru, she's heard of Kaladin, and might be hoping to stumble on him sometime. 
 
I think the Tarah sighting in OB makes it pretty likely she and Kaladin will go through an arc together, possibly romantic. Whether they’ll actually end up together... (shrug). 

However, I consider this ship much more likely than any other. I’ll try to go through each of the others and explain why I think they're less likely.

- I’m not a fan of Jasnah and Kaladin, but even if you are, you have to agree it’s entirely hypothetical at this point considering they’ve barely interacted at all. 

- Laral didn’t sound particularly interested in Kaladin when the met again. In fact, when he tried to apologize for where she ended up, she put him in his place. To me, it sounds like she’s definitely moved beyond their childhood “romance” if you could call it that. Besides, she’s married. 

- I don’t see any reason for why Lyn and Kaladin should end up together beside the fact that they’re both Windtunners. And it’d be cliche if the did get romantically involved. I agree with the people who think she could end up with somebody else in Bridge 4, just not Kaladin.

- I think people have also put forward Venli, Rysn, and even Syl. Venli doesn't even like humans in general, so... yeah. Not likely. Rysn is even more hypothetical than Kaladin since they aren't even aware of each other's existence. And Syl. People have already gone into why that is very, very, very unlikely, and also kind of unethical considering spren rely on their bondmate in a crucial way, to remain in the physical realm.

So while Kaladin and Tarah haven't seen each other in a long time, I think they're the most likely match-up outside of new characters that are introduced. Somebody voiced a concern earlier in the thread that she would seem to much like a gold digger for their relationship to work. But the fact that both of them had feelings for each other when they broke their relationship makes this a much lower hurdle, and I think Brandon is fully capable of pulling their relationship off if he wants to.

I generally agree with everything you said, and it would be fun to see a Kaladin/Tarah meet up in Urithiru.

I do personally like the Laral idea because it (imo) has a lot of potential for character growth for Kaladin.  The scene in OB is used as a way to point out to Kaladin that she's not now and never was a damsel in distress, even though he thought she was.  I don't think Kaladin really understood that from their interaction in OB, he seemed more confused than anything.  I agree she isn't particularly interested in him at the moment (or at least didn't express interest) and I don't know that Kaladin is particularly interested in her.  I just think if they are put together in the right circumstances a woman like Laral could teach Kaladin a lot.  I could imagine a lot of fun scenes like that where he thinks he needs to do something for her or help her out and she's just like "Dude, already done!"  From her end, I think Kaladin could help her by demonstrating he is also competent, that she doesn't have to do everything herself.

I could really see her becoming a larger player over the next few books.  She's pretty much singlehandedly kept her town together in the face of Roshone's failures.  People like Jasnah/Navani/Dalinar, etc will take notice of good leadership like that and promote her.  She also seems like she is ambitious, since it's kind of implied she married Roshone to take his power as the leader of the town.  Then again, she might just stay in the background.  *shrug* 

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Okay, so I've skimmed through this post so sorry if someone already made this point. 

I keep seeing people talk about how Kaladin and Shallan could've worked if adolin hadn't gotten in the way, or could work if Adolin died. This seems absolutely ridiculous to me and I think it's just people hoping without any evidence. Here is the thing. Shallan has had a very distressing childhood. Most of this is because of the OVERPROTECTIVE nature of her father. We even see this at the end of OB when she gets mad at Adolin for saying he wants to protect her. Now, what is Kaladin's biggest flaw/struggle? It is how he feels the need to protect everyone. I see no way that this could end well. Kaladin would always be trying to protect Shallan, and this would just constantly remind her of her father. 

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On 11/11/2019 at 9:24 AM, Config2 said:

@Pathfinder

I don't want you to drop the conversation, this is fun, intelligent (at from my perspective, maybe you think I'm dumb),

Don't think you are dumb. 

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discussion, and I like talking with people who are passionate about a subject. You speak with certainty and conviction; I think these boards, in an attempt to maintain a polite environment, sometimes have too much backtracking. You've found a point and are holding to it. You wrote essentially a full length essay in your linked post, which has some wonderful points and great analysis. I am not remotely offended or intimidated by your responses. That being said, if you don't want to comment further that's OK too.

I will just respond to this post and then leave it. 

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Regarding the Linked thread; I find a lot of it excellent. In general, however, you ascribe thoughts and feelings to Jasnah which are unknown. I wont claim I read the whole thread, but did get through most of the OP. You take observations from the text, which are already filtered through a biased narrator in Shallan, and attribute a fair amount of "inside" perspective. Much of it I agree with, and you shouldn't assume I don't view Jasnah as a deep character because I think she would benefit from close relationships. However, it is as much speculation as this thread, and well supported as it is, isn't an absolute truth to everyone. Your concept of Jasnah as a character is far more well supported than the faint concept of Kaladin x Jasnah ship, but only some portions of a possible relation between them contradict the character you laid out. They are not mutually exclusive.

I will quote the prior post I made in this thread that covers this:

 

"Ultimately I think what it comes down to it is what is central to my understanding of Jasnah and Kaladin means they would not get together, and if they did it would not work. That core part of my understanding of them would by extension see any reason to get them together as artificial and forced. So this has become less a discussion, and more an attempt to convince me, when me pointing to my thread on Jasnah is essentially (i did not realize this originally but do now) me saying my mind cannot be changed. Kind of saying "That is Jasnah to me. That Jasnah would not get in a relationship with Kaladin." So it is kind of unfair to all to continue to bring up reasons that Jasnah and Kaladin would work, just for me to say all the reasons why that new reason would not work for me. I think I adequately related my stance at length, so me responding to further reasons would I think be counter productive. So I guess good luck to those who believe the ship. If it happens, I hope you get all you wanted. if it doesn't, I hope you still get the development you sought from the relationship in another manner. "

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As for how the thread has "shifted to trying to convince you" that's only fair. You are definitely are the most certain and engaged person who doesn't feel the ship is realistic. By having that opinion, and wanting to defend it, you do invite some amount of challenge. In a sense, you defending your heretical beliefs, not proselytizing them. 

So my intent in that post that I copied above, was to relate that:

1. I wrote a really long thread on my understanding of Jasnah

2. It is my personal understanding of her

3. The reason I pointed to it, is because some of the things mentioned that she is lacking in this thread, are mentioned in that thread, and are objective. For instance, the scene of  Jasnah dropping her research to be outside Shallan's room, while she was red eyed and distraught over her ward potentially committing suicide. It objectively occurred. Another instance when Jasnah is on the ship, speaking to the sailors with respect. Shallan thinks she is aloof and thinks them stupid, when Jasnah corrects her. That fools can be found in any place. She respects those that do their work and do it well. Again, it objectively occurred. That is why I asked you to read it

4. Having said that, I realize my issues with the the ship are based on that personal understanding of Jasnah. (to clarify I am not saying I personally understand Jasnah above all else, in case that is misunderstand. Personal understanding is stating I have my own view/reading of the character)

5. When someone has a view that is counter to the general view, things tend to devolve into people saying

"well what about this?"

"that doesn't work for me because...."

"then what about this?"

"that doesn't work for me because...."

"there is also this"

"that doesn't work for me because...."

6. this turns the thread into more the appearance of trying to convince me towards a side that based on my personal understanding of the character, would not work. I am not saying I am close minded, but as I have said repeatedly, I do not see it. I do not see them currently be attracted. I do not see a scenario that could organically build an attraction between them. I do not see a narrative need for them to have an attraction. So since on every level I do not see it, for me the ship does not sail. Anyone else can feel the ship sails. They can feel free to say as much. But like (as you referenced), when someone goes to Jasnah to try to convert her, she will respond with all her reasons as to why she is an atheist. She is not trying to make anyone else an atheist. She is not saying believing in religion is wrong. Just since someone is trying to tell her why she should believe in religion, she responds with why she does not. So when someone says to me that Gavinor is a reason that Kaladin and Jasnah could spend more time together. I say why I do not think that would occur. If I am told to assume Gavinor makes Kaladin and Jasnah spend time together, then I will say why I do not think it would affect their relationship. 

So In summation, I am not trying to tell anyone how they are allowed to think. I am not telling anyone they are right or wrong. I am saying why it does not work for me. Singular. My very own self. None of the reasons brought forward have been enough to convince myself that it would be possible or plausible. That does not mean others cannot think that way. It just means I am stopping responding to why these things do not work for me

Edited by Pathfinder
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4 hours ago, Nellac said:

Okay, so I've skimmed through this post so sorry if someone already made this point. 

I keep seeing people talk about how Kaladin and Shallan could've worked if adolin hadn't gotten in the way, or could work if Adolin died. This seems absolutely ridiculous to me and I think it's just people hoping without any evidence. Here is the thing. Shallan has had a very distressing childhood. Most of this is because of the OVERPROTECTIVE nature of her father. We even see this at the end of OB when she gets mad at Adolin for saying he wants to protect her. Now, what is Kaladin's biggest flaw/struggle? It is how he feels the need to protect everyone. I see no way that this could end well. Kaladin would always be trying to protect Shallan, and this would just constantly remind her of her father. 

I think this is a good point to bring out, and as far as I can tell it's a new idea no one has mentioned before.  It's a reasonable idea of why a Shallan/Kaladin relationship might not work.  From my perspective, I think that while Kaladin does get overprotective toward a lot of people he does it selectively.  He gets overprotective of people that he feels aren't capable of protecting themselves.  He's wrong about this a good chunk of the time and it gets him in trouble, but he seems to be slowly learning.  That said, ever since he got to know Shallan better in WoR I don't think he's taken that protective approach toward her.  It seems to me that after their time trapped in the chasms together and seeing her capabilities, he realized that Shallan can take care of herself.

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4 hours ago, agrabes said:

That said, ever since he got to know Shallan better in WoR I don't think he's taken that protective approach toward her.  It seems to me that after their time trapped in the chasms together and seeing her capabilities, he realized that Shallan can take care of herself.

And that said, it was more shallan saving him than vice versa.. However, my main issue with their relationship was always that out of the chasm, shallan has gone out of her way to push Kaladin away.. She has not, that we have seen from her povs, unlike Kaladin, given a moments thought to the time they spent together and things they revealed to each other.. She had very successfully pushed all of that to the depths of her mind. Even veil was not interested in him due to any special connection felt out of their time spent together but was merely interested in Kaladin because she found him interesting, handsome, a little dangerous and found teasing him fun.. not good qualities for a ship.. 

Shallan has always been determined to make herself a socially uplifting match in Adolin (he is so likeable and handsome too) but although Kaladin has already uplifted himself as a radiant even above Adolin in social heirarachy, Shallan found it difficult to see Kaladin as anything else but a darkeyes.. 

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11 hours ago, The traveller said:

And that said, it was more shallan saving him than vice versa.. However, my main issue with their relationship was always that out of the chasm, shallan has gone out of her way to push Kaladin away.. She has not, that we have seen from her povs, unlike Kaladin, given a moments thought to the time they spent together and things they revealed to each other.. She had very successfully pushed all of that to the depths of her mind. Even veil was not interested in him due to any special connection felt out of their time spent together but was merely interested in Kaladin because she found him interesting, handsome, a little dangerous and found teasing him fun.. not good qualities for a ship.. 

Shallan has always been determined to make herself a socially uplifting match in Adolin (he is so likeable and handsome too) but although Kaladin has already uplifted himself as a radiant even above Adolin in social heirarachy, Shallan found it difficult to see Kaladin as anything else but a darkeyes.. 

Agreed, Kaladin learned by experience that Shallan doesn't need anyone to take care of her.  It seems like to me so far in the series Shallan has not expressed much of any real deep feelings for anyone.  Like you said, her bigger interests seemed to be political betterment.  It feels like she has the strongest feelings about Jasnah (not romantically, imo) of anyone.  I do think that in future books, we are going to find out just how messed up her mental state was in OB.  We can only see so much of it from the inside and there are hints that she's been suppressing a lot of things.  We know she suppressed her memories of her childhood, but I think we are getting hints that she is suppressing more recent events.

Something I think you were getting at too is that she might be just completely trying to shut out genuine emotional development and thoughts about what she actually wants for herself in a personal context.  Like you said, she never really considers Kaladin seriously as a romantic option probably because she is suppressing that in her mind as something she sees as unworthy of the person she is supposed to be.  Not that she would get together with him if she wasn't (she might or might not), but she's completely blocked the possibility out of her mind.  She also never really thinks about whether she actually wants to be with Adolin until the last handful of scenes in OB, or what position she really wants to hold in the leadership of the Radiants and the Alethi government.  She kind of thinks about this when Jasnah shows up - she had sort of been coming into her own in WoR and early OB but when Jasnah shows up she feels like she is being put back into a subordinate positions and she sort of shuts down.  She just tries to focus in on her work and latches on to learning how to be a spy as an escape.  It's like she created the personas to do what she thought she was supposed to do at a moment in time and she takes comfort when taking on those personas because she doesn't really have to think about what she should really be doing with her life.  

I think sometime in SA4 or SA5 she is going to have to face up to all the things she's been suppressing.  Not necessarily in a shipping way, but I think as far as her actual role in society and taking ownership/agency over her own actions.   

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36 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Agreed, Kaladin learned by experience that Shallan doesn't need anyone to take care of her.  It seems like to me so far in the series Shallan has not expressed much of any real deep feelings for anyone.  Like you said, her bigger interests seemed to be political betterment.  It feels like she has the strongest feelings about Jasnah (not romantically, imo) of anyone.  I do think that in future books, we are going to find out just how messed up her mental state was in OB.  We can only see so much of it from the inside and there are hints that she's been suppressing a lot of things.  We know she suppressed her memories of her childhood, but I think we are getting hints that she is suppressing more recent events.

Something I think you were getting at too is that she might be just completely trying to shut out genuine emotional development and thoughts about what she actually wants for herself in a personal context.  Like you said, she never really considers Kaladin seriously as a romantic option probably because she is suppressing that in her mind as something she sees as unworthy of the person she is supposed to be.  Not that she would get together with him if she wasn't (she might or might not), but she's completely blocked the possibility out of her mind.  She also never really thinks about whether she actually wants to be with Adolin until the last handful of scenes in OB, or what position she really wants to hold in the leadership of the Radiants and the Alethi government.  She kind of thinks about this when Jasnah shows up - she had sort of been coming into her own in WoR and early OB but when Jasnah shows up she feels like she is being put back into a subordinate positions and she sort of shuts down.  She just tries to focus in on her work and latches on to learning how to be a spy as an escape.  It's like she created the personas to do what she thought she was supposed to do at a moment in time and she takes comfort when taking on those personas because she doesn't really have to think about what she should really be doing with her life.  

I think sometime in SA4 or SA5 she is going to have to face up to all the things she's been suppressing.  Not necessarily in a shipping way, but I think as far as her actual role in society and taking ownership/agency over her own actions.   

Yup I agree to all of this.. Shallan and her mental space is much more messed up than I had realised earlier.. Personally, I think instead of getting better, to me it feels like she is degrading with each book. To the point, that I have serious concerns if she really will be able to pull through all of her problems and if she really can combine all of her personas.. 

It greatly disturbs me that she suppresses so many things not only from her childhood but recent events.. She never processed what she learnt about helaran, her brother and how he died at the hands of Kaladin, she never confronted her failures as veil in Kholinar and she seems to have suppressed the whole member of the ghostbloods thing too using veil which is extremely dangerous and stupid on her part. I think soon she will realise like she had in twok, that she should have gone to Jasnah about the ghostbloods. Jasnah probably hates them after all they tried to kill her but she is too smart to understand the importance of a spy in their ranks that she might actually be a great help to shallan in this regard. 
Shallan and her whole arc has been very difficult to read for me in OB because she really regresses in OB once Jasnah comes back. In Wor, she had taken up the mantle of leadership and had such great achievements.. I, for one, would have never thought she would reveal to Dalinar about being a radiant. That was real character growth for her. But in OB, she is just trying to avoid her responsibilities, instead trying to be a spy, learning to drink.. 

So, while Kaladin and shallan shared a moment, a real powerful and intimate moment, I never saw it heading anyway especially since we saw that shallan was determined to suppress it all. Other than that, Kaladin might find her method for coping interesting but I think he would have soon realised that it is not his cup of tea. He can not and will not run away from his responsibilities. They are incompatible at a very basic level.

I also have sincere concerns regarding her relationship with Adolin too but for his sake, I hope it works out. But apart from the fact that she thinks he is very handsome and good-natured kind man, I have not seen any real deep feelings for him either. More than anything, I think she just fell in love with the idea of marrying into Kholin family- an Alethi royalty, even though of course she has no aspirations to become a queen because responsibilities....

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42 minutes ago, The traveller said:

I also have sincere concerns regarding her relationship with Adolin too but for his sake, I hope it works out. But apart from the fact that she thinks he is very handsome and good-natured kind man, I have not seen any real deep feelings for him either. More than anything, I think she just fell in love with the idea of marrying into Kholin family- an Alethi royalty, even though of course she has no aspirations to become a queen because responsibilities....

I think Shallan cares for Adolin more than you're saying, but I agree their relationship isn't as stable as people think. Adolin is committed, and is willing to sacrifice for Shallan. However, even though Shallan seems very lovey-dovey with Adolin at the end of OB, this is the honeymoon phase of their relationship. Once this phase ends we'll start to see flaws in their relationship start arising I hope. And though Shallan has started opening up somewhat to Adolin, she is still suppressing a lot, as you stated. Going forward, I'm not sure whether I want their relationship to succeed or not. Adolin is good for Shallan, but whether Shallan is good for Adolin remains to be seen. Also, I don't think we've seen a failed relationship before in the cosmere, which does make me hope for a falling out between them. At the very least, I expect that their relationship in Rhythm of War will be shaky at some points, what with Adolin's revelations about his father and Shallan's continuing to keep secrets and deal with her personas. If Brandon did make their relationship rock-solid, I would be really disappointed.

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1 hour ago, The traveller said:

Yup I agree to all of this.. Shallan and her mental space is much more messed up than I had realised earlier.. Personally, I think instead of getting better, to me it feels like she is degrading with each book. To the point, that I have serious concerns if she really will be able to pull through all of her problems and if she really can combine all of her personas.. 

It greatly disturbs me that she suppresses so many things not only from her childhood but recent events.. She never processed what she learnt about helaran, her brother and how he died at the hands of Kaladin, she never confronted her failures as veil in Kholinar and she seems to have suppressed the whole member of the ghostbloods thing too using veil which is extremely dangerous and stupid on her part. I think soon she will realise like she had in twok, that she should have gone to Jasnah about the ghostbloods. Jasnah probably hates them after all they tried to kill her but she is too smart to understand the importance of a spy in their ranks that she might actually be a great help to shallan in this regard. 
Shallan and her whole arc has been very difficult to read for me in OB because she really regresses in OB once Jasnah comes back. In Wor, she had taken up the mantle of leadership and had such great achievements.. I, for one, would have never thought she would reveal to Dalinar about being a radiant. That was real character growth for her. But in OB, she is just trying to avoid her responsibilities, instead trying to be a spy, learning to drink.. 

So, while Kaladin and shallan shared a moment, a real powerful and intimate moment, I never saw it heading anyway especially since we saw that shallan was determined to suppress it all. Other than that, Kaladin might find her method for coping interesting but I think he would have soon realised that it is not his cup of tea. He can not and will not run away from his responsibilities. They are incompatible at a very basic level.

I also have sincere concerns regarding her relationship with Adolin too but for his sake, I hope it works out. But apart from the fact that she thinks he is very handsome and good-natured kind man, I have not seen any real deep feelings for him either. More than anything, I think she just fell in love with the idea of marrying into Kholin family- an Alethi royalty, even though of course she has no aspirations to become a queen because responsibilities....

It's nice to find someone who has a very similar view on Shallan and her arc as of Oathbringer.  Sometimes I feel like the only one on this board who believed that she was really peaking in early OB and then regresses significantly in the rest of the book.  I'm glad there are at least two of us!

Regarding Kaladin/Shallan compatibility that's an interesting way to look at it.  I had never really thought of it from that angle, but it makes a ton of sense.  Their scene together in OB where he says he wishes he could do what she does was an interesting one to me.  I don't think I go as far as you do in believing she's totally irresponsible as a core aspect of her personality.  I thought that scene showed that she knows she shouldn't be pushing things off the way she does, but she can't figure out a way to get a grip on things.  I think she went quiet after that because part of her was expecting Kaladin to tell her she has to face up to her problems.  She knows him as the guy who is really strong, resolute, and never looks away from a challenge even if it breaks him and I think that is what she really admired about him.  I think part of her expected him to sort of become an anchor for her and tell her he could help her face the truth and she was really upset that he didn't.  They didn't talk about it after that, but it's one of those common romance tropes that if they had talked about why she got upset they would have easily worked out all their differences.  If she had explained how she's creating personas to deal with her problems for her and feels like she's losing control of herself and if he had explained how he can barely keep himself together with all the mental burdens he's bearing and wishes he could figure out how to set down some of them, that's the basis of a friendship or relationship of mutual support.  But it didn't happen and that's OK. 

So I guess to sum it up, I didn't see that scene as a sign that they are incompatible, I just saw it as two people who want the same thing but got into a misunderstanding that made everything worse.  But, I could easily see it from your perspective too.

43 minutes ago, ILuvHats said:

I think Shallan cares for Adolin more than you're saying, but I agree their relationship isn't as stable as people think. Adolin is committed, and is willing to sacrifice for Shallan. However, even though Shallan seems very lovey-dovey with Adolin at the end of OB, this is the honeymoon phase of their relationship. Once this phase ends we'll start to see flaws in their relationship start arising I hope. And though Shallan has started opening up somewhat to Adolin, she is still suppressing a lot, as you stated. Going forward, I'm not sure whether I want their relationship to succeed or not. Adolin is good for Shallan, but whether Shallan is good for Adolin remains to be seen. Also, I don't think we've seen a failed relationship before in the cosmere, which does make me hope for a falling out between them. At the very least, I expect that their relationship in Rhythm of War will be shaky at some points, what with Adolin's revelations about his father and Shallan's continuing to keep secrets and deal with her personas. If Brandon did make their relationship rock-solid, I would be really disappointed.

Out of curiosity, what is it that makes you believe Shallan cares a lot about Adolin (or at least more that we're saying now)?  I know this was discussed up thread, so no need to rehash it if it's already been discussed ad nauseum.  There are definitely some things we may just disagree about, but I don't remember anything that suggests that Shallan has deep feelings for Adolin as an individual beyond those final few scenes of OB leading up to the wedding.  That's not to say it's not there, it could easily be that is there (or is intended by Sanderson to be there) and I'm just not picking up on it.

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1 hour ago, ILuvHats said:

Adolin is committed, and is willing to sacrifice for Shallan

I have no doubts about adolin’s commitment. He deeply cares about her, loves her, defends her and dotes in her. He learns to deal with his insecurities with regard to her being radiant on his own. It is not even something she had to deal with. And then he ensured that she learnt to fight using her shardblade.. He has not shown any interest in any other women ever since shallan..

1 hour ago, ILuvHats said:

Adolin is good for Shallan, but whether Shallan is good for Adolin remains to be seen

Exactly.. this is my concern too.. I worry for Adolin in this relationship more. I doubt that shallan is capable of dealing with a marriage currently. 

 

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

It's nice to find someone who has a very similar view on Shallan and her arc as of Oathbringer.  Sometimes I feel like the only one on this board who believed that she was really peaking in early OB and then regresses significantly in the rest of the book.  I'm glad there are at least two of us!

I am right there with you on this. :) 

 

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

I thought that scene showed that she knows she shouldn't be pushing things off the way she does, but she can't figure out a way to get a grip on things.

Yes she knows.. and she has resolved to try to do better at the end of OB too. But my doubts are that While she might try, she may not succeed. As we know, she has some real, very real traumas in her past and they are not easy to deal with. 
 

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

I think she went quiet after that because part of her was expecting Kaladin to tell her she has to face up to her problems.  She knows him as the guy who is really strong, resolute, and never looks away from a challenge even if it breaks him and I think that is what she really admired about him.  I think part of her expected him to sort of become an anchor for her and tell her he could help her face the truth and she was really upset that he didn't

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

 but I think Kaladin would have helped her and would have done that for her if she had ever really cared to show her vulnerability to him. She never really showed him her broken side, her struggles and her weaknesses. 

 

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

I don't remember anything that suggests that Shallan has deep feelings for Adolin as an individual beyond those final few scenes of OB leading up to the wedding.  That's not to say it's not there, it could easily be that is there (or is intended by Sanderson to be there) and I'm just not picking up on it.

Agreed. I fail to remember any such moments when she really showed her care for him in a deeply meaningful way.. @ILuvHats please suggest any that you think fits. Because I really like Adolin and want him to work his marriage out!

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1 hour ago, agrabes said:

Out of curiosity, what is it that makes you believe Shallan cares a lot about Adolin (or at least more that we're saying now)?  I know this was discussed up thread, so no need to rehash it if it's already been discussed ad nauseum.  There are definitely some things we may just disagree about, but I don't remember anything that suggests that Shallan has deep feelings for Adolin as an individual beyond those final few scenes of OB leading up to the wedding.  That's not to say it's not there, it could easily be that is there (or is intended by Sanderson to be there) and I'm just not picking up on it.

Other than the last few scenes of OB (which as I already mentioned are basically the honeymoon phase of their relationship and isn’t necessarily indicative of deep love on Shallan’s part), I’m mainly thinking of their early interactions in OB. I think it’s clear that Shallan is happier when she’s around Adolin and they have a lot of chemistry. Because Shallan is so messed up throughout the book it’s hard to determine exactly what she feels since she herself doesn’t know what she feels. However, in my experience, when someone cares for you deeply and is able to help you out of a poor mental state, feelings more than attraction often develop. So it’s more that I think there’s a lot of potential for Shallan to grow in love for Adolin. 
 

 

24 minutes ago, The traveller said:

@ILuvHats please suggest any that you think fits. Because I really like Adolin and want him to work his marriage out!

I’m a little bit confused... what do you want me to suggest that fits what?

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38 minutes ago, ILuvHats said:

Other than the last few scenes of OB (which as I already mentioned are basically the honeymoon phase of their relationship and isn’t necessarily indicative of deep love on Shallan’s part), I’m mainly thinking of their early interactions in OB. I think it’s clear that Shallan is happier when she’s around Adolin and they have a lot of chemistry. Because Shallan is so messed up throughout the book it’s hard to determine exactly what she feels since she herself doesn’t know what she feels. However, in my experience, when someone cares for you deeply and is able to help you out of a poor mental state, feelings more than attraction often develop. So it’s more that I think there’s a lot of potential for Shallan to grow in love for Adolin. 
 

 

I’m a little bit confused... what do you want me to suggest that fits what?

 I think that's a fair interpretation - they do seem to get along well in early OB, better than the rest of the book.  I could see how someone could get that feeling, especially relative to her interactions in the rest of the book.

The main reason I'm asking this is because earlier in the thread a lot of people said they felt there was a good and satisfying build up of a relationship between Shallan and Adolin leading to their decision to get married.  I personally think that Sanderson intended for there to be one, but failed at it due to his weakness in writing romance.  At least to me, Shallan's decisions at the end of OB felt sudden and not supported by her earlier interactions with Adolin.  I seemed to be the odd one out with that impression and sort of came to the conclusion that it must just be something in their story arc that didn't click with me.  But, I'm always interested in trying to figure out how other people see things.

The resolution of the whole love triangle thing really pissed me off when I read OB, not necessarily because of the results but because of how it happened.  So every now and again I come to these boards and try to talk w/ other people to figure out if I'm the only one dissatisfied with it or if I'm just looking at it a weird way.  I feel like it's been enough time now that people can discuss it without it turning into a shipping war.  Anyway, thanks for putting out your opinion on this. 

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23 minutes ago, agrabes said:

The main reason I'm asking this is because earlier in the thread a lot of people said they felt there was a good and satisfying build up of a relationship between Shallan and Adolin leading to their decision to get married.  I personally think that Sanderson intended for there to be one, but failed at it due to his weakness in writing romance.  At least to me, Shallan's decisions at the end of OB felt sudden and not supported by her earlier interactions with Adolin.  I seemed to be the odd one out with that impression and sort of came to the conclusion that it must just be something in their story arc that didn't click with me.  But, I'm always interested in trying to figure out how other people see things.

The resolution of the whole love triangle thing really pissed me off when I read OB, not necessarily because of the results but because of how it happened.  So every now and again I come to these boards and try to talk w/ other people to figure out if I'm the only one dissatisfied with it or if I'm just looking at it a weird way.  I feel like it's been enough time now that people can discuss it without it turning into a shipping war.  Anyway, thanks for putting out your opinion on this. 

Oh, I definitely agree that the whole love triangle was handled poorly in OB. There was no build up, no conflict, no climactic resolution. It felt like nothing was happening on that front throughout the entire book, and at the end, everything just worked ok fine and dandy. After seeing other people reactions on the forums, I agree that the arc was in character for all of them. But my guttural reaction at the end of OB on my first read was “What kind of a resolution is this?” 

That being said, I see why this fiasco of an arc occurred. Brandon set up the love triangle quite deftly in WoR. But, it feels like when he was writing OB, he realized just how bloated the book was. I think the published draft was well-paced and didn’t feel bloated, but the SA books have been getting longer and longer. So when it came to the love triangle, he tried to resolve it with as few words as possible since it wasn’t integral to the plot. And IMO, failed. At this point I just want to move on from the love triangle in the next book and forget it happened. 

And one more thing; there are more people than you think on the forums who don’t like how the love triangle played out. Especially around the release of OB, there were certainly people who share your and my opinion. However, most people have come to terms with it since the book had been out so long, even people who initially disliked it, which may be why the general opinion seems so one-sided to you. 

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1 hour ago, agrabes said:

The resolution of the whole love triangle thing really pissed me off when I read OB, not necessarily because of the results but because of how it happened.  So every now and again I come to these boards and try to talk w/ other people to figure out if I'm the only one dissatisfied with it or if I'm just looking at it a weird way.  I feel like it's been enough time now that people can discuss it without it turning into a shipping war.  Anyway, thanks for putting out your opinion on this. 

I agree with you, what pissed me off the most was the easy resolution, the "She just reminded me off my brother" or the "I never really liked him, Veil did". I think both are lies and seems like a easy way to wrap things up.

I disagree with you in one thing, I finished rereading OB some weeks ago and noticed things that make me believe the Kaladin/Shallan relashionship is not as dead as people think. Hopefully the next books will answer.

In relation to other possible Kaladin romances, Tarah seems to be the more likely option, after that possible cameo in Urithiru. Laral seems unlikely after OB and Jasnah right know is just speculation.

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1 hour ago, ILuvHats said:

Oh, I definitely agree that the whole love triangle was handled poorly in OB. There was no build up, no conflict, no climactic resolution. It felt like nothing was happening on that front throughout the entire book, and at the end, everything just worked ok fine and dandy. After seeing other people reactions on the forums, I agree that the arc was in character for all of them. But my guttural reaction at the end of OB on my first read was “What kind of a resolution is this?” 

That being said, I see why this fiasco of an arc occurred. Brandon set up the love triangle quite deftly in WoR. But, it feels like when he was writing OB, he realized just how bloated the book was. I think the published draft was well-paced and didn’t feel bloated, but the SA books have been getting longer and longer. So when it came to the love triangle, he tried to resolve it with as few words as possible since it wasn’t integral to the plot. And IMO, failed. At this point I just want to move on from the love triangle in the next book and forget it happened. 

And one more thing; there are more people than you think on the forums who don’t like how the love triangle played out. Especially around the release of OB, there were certainly people who share your and my opinion. However, most people have come to terms with it since the book had been out so long, even people who initially disliked it, which may be why the general opinion seems so one-sided to you. 

Yeah, I was around here in the early days after OB was released.  I sort of took a hiatus for a year or so in between releases, but over the last few months I've posted occasionally.  There were definitely a lot of people unsatisfied with the conclusion, but it seemed like most people were mostly upset based on shipping interests not necessarily about the actual structure of how it ended.  At least, that was what I took from it back then.  I've wondered too if the triangle arc didn't get cut or drastically reduced due to bloat or other editing reasons in OB.  Like I said in another thread, I wonder if he had to make late changes to the structure of OB that made some of the later parts of the book feel a little less cohesive or something like that.  I know he has said that he had originally planned for book 3 to be Szeth's book and I think you can see a lot of things in the set up that would have made more sense if we spent more time with Szeth.  So if he had gone a long way with the book as Szeth's book and then had to redo it as Dalinar's book it would make a ton of sense if certain things had to get cut or drastically changed to make room for Dalinar's story to work.

51 minutes ago, lccaseiro58 said:

I agree with you, what pissed me off the most was the easy resolution, the "She just reminded me off my brother" or the "I never really liked him, Veil did". I think both are lies and seems like a easy way to wrap things up.

I disagree with you in one thing, I finished rereading OB some weeks ago and noticed things that make me believe the Kaladin/Shallan relashionship is not as dead as people think. Hopefully the next books will answer.

In relation to other possible Kaladin romances, Tarah seems to be the more likely option, after that possible cameo in Urithiru. Laral seems unlikely after OB and Jasnah right know is just speculation.

Back in the first few months after OB's release, there were a lot of posts with theories like yours that turned into huge shipping wars.  I've intentionally stayed away from talking about it to this point because I don't really want to restart a shipping war.  People have discussed who is really the right guy or best guy for Shallan to death and there's no real definitive answer other than who she ends up with at the end of OB.  I'll just say that I have two thoughts on this:

1) I agree it seems like there is something fishy going on with the interactions between Shallan and Kaladin.  There have been hints from Sanderson that he may be setting up for something like the Dalinar/Navani/Gavilar triangle, not necessarily with the Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin triangle but he has hinted there will be a parallel to it in the future.  This has led people to speculate that Adolin will die or Shallan and Adolin's marriage will fail.  You can probably go back and find the thread with dozens of pages discussing this from back then and there are a lot of people who posted WoBs to support the idea.

1b) Personally, I think the most likely resolution to this is that later on Shallan will realize she actually did have stronger feelings for Kaladin than Adolin or equal feelings for both, but it's too late to do anything about it and she decides not to act on them.  I say this based on Sanderson's typical writing style and themes, but it's a total guess.

2) That said, if you read the section at the end of Oathbringer where the resolution occurs, Kaladin thinks to himself in his mind that he is not at all upset that Shallan and Adolin have finalized that they will definitely get married.  He thinks that he isn't bitter or sad in any way, that his feeling is "agreement."  I don't see how you can interpret this as anything other than a Deus Ex Machina from Brandon Sanderson saying it's over.  This was my biggest issue with the resolution of the triangle.  I think the door is pretty firmly closed from Kaladin's side. 

2b) You can also look at some of the sections from OB where Kaladin thinks about Shallan and you can find hints that it is being implied the reason he feels better around her is not romantic attraction but actually her lightweaver magic.  This is something Karger pointed out earlier in the thread that I didn't realize before.  Lightweavers apparently have an effect that makes people around them feel happier - Tien is known to have been on the path to becoming a Lightweaver and hence the comparison to Shallan.  I'm not sure if I totally agree that all of his feelings toward Shallan were always just side effects of Lightweaver magic, but I think it's pretty clear that at least some of them are supposed to be attributed to it.  Also, if you look at Syl's advice to Kaladin, if you interpret it from this lens then she is not acting as matchmaker she is actually telling Kaladin he needs to go see a therapist.  If this turns out the be the case, it takes Sanderson's (imo) best written romance arc (Kaladin's feelings for Shallan in WoR and OB) and turns into a non-romantic arc.  

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Ok guys. Regarding the love triangle and how it was handled... I think it was nicely set up in wor with the intro of Kaladin and shallan, their banter and chasm scene opposite the easy way Adolin and shallan begin to get along and then there is your typical competition that is brewing between Adolin and Kaladin which is usually made even more high stakes in a love triangle situation. Add to that the fact that no kal and shallan are radiants, we had a very possibility that it could be something more. At the end of wor, shallan had not shown much interest in Kaladin because he was darkeyes. So I had expected that to change when Adolin told her that kal was a KR. I was expecting things to go in this manner. I was not really happy with the idea because Adolin and kal had barely started to like each other and would have hated shallan to ruin their budding friendship or respect for each other
but then OB started. And I realised that shallan seems to not really care about kal being a windrunner. She is determined to call him bridgeboy and pays zero attention to him. In fact one scene clearly indicates that she thinks of him as a darkeyes and nothing more than a peasant, basically. My hopes for anything kal and shallan had plummeted right there. 
There was also that opportunity where kal and shallan were going to theylenah to open the oathgate and I had thought may be some development will happen here. But nope, it was all off-page. And then Kholinar happened, suddenly shallan decided that veil liked him and not shallan. I think it is a lie, a typical shallan diverting her problems into her other personas. Kaladin is also attracted to her but there has never been any occasion where I felt that there was any real depth to it either. As to “she reminded my of Tien that’s it” well since she clearly chose Adolin, what else is Kaladin supposed to say.. Overall, I feel that somewhere down the line, Brandon decided against the triangle arc and deliberately chose not to take it up properly either due to lack of space or due to lack of commitment. At the end, poorly done or not, I like the way it was resolved. I do not like Kaladin with shallan and I did not want there to be any rivalry or bitterness between Adolin and Kaladin. In fact, out of the three, I care more about Adolin and kaladin’s Friendship and am glad that it was not ruined. 
In the end, I am just glad that it was over and I hope it remains so. I hope Kaladin finds someone else who will give him the commitment and respect that he needs. 

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Yeah, I agree with a lot of y'all here, especially @The traveller - for my personal spin on it, I never liked the Kaladin/Shallan thing because I never felt that she actually respected him. Every interaction with him was like a game to her, and the kind of game that you can never assume is always going to be taken pleasantly. Like she always seemed to find it amusing when he was irritated, and playful hostility is just something I do not find cute. Attraction comes and goes, but if the other person isn't showing signs that they respect you and your feelings, I can't get on board, and Shallan never let up on that, not even in the chasm scene.

@lccaseiro58 Interesting points about Tarah, I'll have to watch out for that in my rereads!

 

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12 hours ago, The traveller said:

Ok guys. Regarding the love triangle and how it was handled... I think it was nicely set up in wor with the intro of Kaladin and shallan, their banter and chasm scene opposite the easy way Adolin and shallan begin to get along and then there is your typical competition that is brewing between Adolin and Kaladin which is usually made even more high stakes in a love triangle situation. Add to that the fact that no kal and shallan are radiants, we had a very possibility that it could be something more. At the end of wor, shallan had not shown much interest in Kaladin because he was darkeyes. So I had expected that to change when Adolin told her that kal was a KR. I was expecting things to go in this manner. I was not really happy with the idea because Adolin and kal had barely started to like each other and would have hated shallan to ruin their budding friendship or respect for each other
but then OB started. And I realised that shallan seems to not really care about kal being a windrunner. She is determined to call him bridgeboy and pays zero attention to him. In fact one scene clearly indicates that she thinks of him as a darkeyes and nothing more than a peasant, basically. My hopes for anything kal and shallan had plummeted right there. 
There was also that opportunity where kal and shallan were going to theylenah to open the oathgate and I had thought may be some development will happen here. But nope, it was all off-page. And then Kholinar happened, suddenly shallan decided that veil liked him and not shallan. I think it is a lie, a typical shallan diverting her problems into her other personas. Kaladin is also attracted to her but there has never been any occasion where I felt that there was any real depth to it either. As to “she reminded my of Tien that’s it” well since she clearly chose Adolin, what else is Kaladin supposed to say.. Overall, I feel that somewhere down the line, Brandon decided against the triangle arc and deliberately chose not to take it up properly either due to lack of space or due to lack of commitment. At the end, poorly done or not, I like the way it was resolved. I do not like Kaladin with shallan and I did not want there to be any rivalry or bitterness between Adolin and Kaladin. In fact, out of the three, I care more about Adolin and kaladin’s Friendship and am glad that it was not ruined. 
In the end, I am just glad that it was over and I hope it remains so. I hope Kaladin finds someone else who will give him the commitment and respect that he needs. 

Well, to me the issue was that he thought that, not that he said it.  If he said it, I totally get that he's gotta put a good face on things and let it drop.  Plus, let's face it there wasn't enough of anything between him and Shallan to give him a right to make a big deal over it with her.  He just failed to win her over and that's it.  The issue is that he didn't say it, it was his internal thoughts and feelings.  So, it's not that he's sort of a little upset but dealing with it in a good way, it's that he was never upset at all.  I'm cool with the fact that Adolin and Shallan ended up together, but what really bugs me the most is the way it's sort of retconned that Kaladin never liked her to begin with.  I personally felt there was a lot of depth to his feelings, so to me it felt like a big disconnect from what had been built up.  But that's me, the unrequited love stories are the ones that resonate with me the most.

In the end though I think you're right - Sanderson didn't want to write the kind of story it would have to be if the triangle really played out in a more satisfying way, probably for a lot of reasons.  It's not really that kind of story and there's not room in it to dedicate the page time that would be needed to make it feel right so he probably decided to cut it off.

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