Merlin

Kaladin's Love Life

139 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

Except we were in Kaladin's head, and Kaladin did not think that. 

At least, he hasn't thought about it yet. You make some good points in your post with book quotations. 

However, in his final appearance in Oathbringer, we don't get to see his real reaction to Gavinor being found alive. That leaves it open as to both the role that Gavinor will play in the upcoming two books, and how Kaladin treats him as a way to redeem himself.

We don't get a resting moment with Kaladin after he rescues Gavinor, but after a one year time gap, he will have had plenty of time to think. And it may occur to him that guarding Gavinor is the best way to "make up" for his failure with Ehlokar.

This is all straying for the prime topic though; If Sanderson decides to go the route of a Jasnah+Kaladin pairing, he'll have two ways that are certainly believable if not well laid to get them together. The first is through Gavinor. It think it'd be at the very least believable to make him retroactively feel responsible for Gavinor, even if he didn't demonstrate it so far. The second is through Jasnah herself, who may request Windrunner guards to use their prestige (like Navani does). Kaladin doesn't like being manipulated, but is certainly pragmatic enough to support Jasnah against Sadeas resurgent (or a different Alethi counter-movement). These are outside of more extreme measures like getting them stranded like Kaladin and Shallan.

Basically what I'm saying is that you're right, he hasn't so far demonstrated any connection to Gavinor, but that Gavinor remains a possible avenue for getting Jasnah+Kaladin in the same room for extended periods of time. There would be great humor and the possibility for romance to get those two as surrogate parents for a four (now five) year old.

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30 minutes ago, Config2 said:

At least, he hasn't thought about it yet. You make some good points in your post with book quotations. 

Thank you. I don't want you to think I am jumping on your thoughts or anything. Just explaining why I personally do not think it likely

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However, in his final appearance in Oathbringer, we don't get to see his real reaction to Gavinor being found alive. That leaves it open as to both the role that Gavinor will play in the upcoming two books, and how Kaladin treats him as a way to redeem himself.

The final appearance of Gavinor is kind of why I see Drehy and Skar as more likely tied to Gavinor than Kaladin. They pursued the kid after he was grabbed by the Queens Guard. They hid the kid from the fused and protected the child when they lost their powers with Kaladin leaving. Them protecting Gavinor potentially had them reach their second oath (with it ending on them protecting those who cannot protect themselves, the second oath of the windrunenrs, and it shows Gavinor's face). So the potential oath progression of Skar and Drehy, not Kaladin looks to me that it was attached to Gavinor.

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We don't get a resting moment with Kaladin after he rescues Gavinor, but after a one year time gap, he will have had plenty of time to think. And it may occur to him that guarding Gavinor is the best way to "make up" for his failure with Ehlokar.

I personally wouldn't really call the scene with Kaladin showing up at the end, him saving Gavinor. To me that credit goes to Skar and Drehy. They got the kid away from Kholinar and kept him safe all that time. Kaladin just showed up to get them out of enemy territory. In the quotes I provided, Kaladin was extremely worried about Skar and Drehy. He didn't realize Gavinor was saved till the child was revealed by the bridgemen. So again, I do not feel Kaladin's goal was Gavinor. For Skar and Drehy totally in my opinion. Do I see Kaladin trying to protect Gavinor if the child gets into danger? Sure! I am not saying Kaladin is unfeeling towards the child. I just do not see a greater sense or need to protect that child over anyone else. In fact it looks like the opposite to me. That others took more precedent to him. 

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This is all straying for the prime topic though; If Sanderson decides to go the route of a Jasnah+Kaladin pairing, he'll have two ways that are certainly believable if not well laid to get them together.

If Sanderson decides to go that route, I trust he will do a great job with it, but at this point I just do not see it happening. 

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The first is through Gavinor. It think it'd be at the very least believable to make him retroactively feel responsible for Gavinor, even if he didn't demonstrate it so far.

Personally I do not believe his actions make it believable that Kaladin would focus on protecting and being with Gavinor. 

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The second is through Jasnah herself, who may request Windrunner guards to use their prestige (like Navani does). Kaladin doesn't like being manipulated, but is certainly pragmatic enough to support Jasnah against Sadeas resurgent (or a different Alethi counter-movement). These are outside of more extreme measures like getting them stranded like Kaladin and Shallan.

Jasnah suggested the windrunners scout. Shallan remarks how Jasnah seems to have a good head for military tactics that one would not expect of a highlady. I do not think Jasnah would consider the windrunners power set being better suited to guarding a single child, versus scouting the enemy positions, doing guerrilla warfare, rabid response, or rapid retreat. Anyway it would be Dalinar's call on how the radiants should be deployed. Jasnah handles the governance of the Alethi in exile. A lightweaver, or edgedancer, or truthwatcher I think would be far better equipped to guard their charge. A lightweaver could have an illusory double of the target so the child remains safe. Also a lightweaver that learns soulcasting could potentially soulcast away any weapon about to stab into the child. An edgedancer could retreat, and slide the child out of harms way, and heal the child if injured. Same for the truthwatcher. 

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Basically what I'm saying is that you're right, he hasn't so far demonstrated any connection to Gavinor, but that Gavinor remains a possible avenue for getting Jasnah+Kaladin in the same room for extended periods of time. There would be great humor and the possibility for romance to get those two as surrogate parents for a four (now five) year old.

Again I respect your opinion but personally I do not see it. Using the child to shove two people together, when the child has far greater connection ( in my opinion) to Skar and Drehy does not fit to me. 

 

 

edit: actually pulling up the scene and re-reading it shows Kaladin definitely did not know Gavinor was alive and there with Skar and Drehy. So he flew all that way for Skar and Drehy, not Gavinor

Oathbringer page 1212

"Kal" Skar said as Kaladin slapped him on the back "There's something we didn't mention by spanreed"

Kaladin frowned as Drehy returned to the fire and picked up one of the figures there. A child? In rags. Yes, a frightened little boy, maybe three or four years old, lips chapped, eyes haunted.

Elhokar's son. 

"We protect those" Drehy said "Who cannot protect themselves"

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I want to note that Skar and Drehy certainly have MORE of a right to care about/protect Gavinor, and the most organic thing would be for them to become personal bodyguards for the child (with some quips about how its way easier than looking after Adolin). But, it wouldn't be inorganic for them to be treated as an extension of Kaladin, and even cede the task to him due to lack of confidence (and overconfidence in Kal). I also don't want to imply that Kaladin really had to do too much to "save" Gav as you mentioned. I stated that way to convey the scene, not to assert its intent. Skar and Drehy are minor characters unfortunately. Some of their best moments have to be given to others, although I personally like Skar more than Kaladin. Drehy hasn't had any viewpoints so I can't judge.

I also wont comment on the morality of having an external event (like the death of a biological father spurring a surrogate father) being the primary cause for two people to become romantically intertwined. But Sanderson clearly feels it is OK to use as a device, as it is the inciting romantic method for Adolin and Shallan (as well as Warbreaker, Elantris, and Alloy of Law). He may even prefer the logic of a cold soup becoming warm over the serendipity of a soup being warm from the beginning (the idea of love at first sight).

37 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Jasnah suggested the windrunners scout. Shallan remarks how Jasnah seems to have a good head for military tactics that one would not expect of a highlady. I do not think Jasnah would consider the windrunners power set being better suited to guarding a single child, versus scouting the enemy positions, doing guerrilla warfare, rabid response, or rapid retreat. Anyway it would be Dalinar's call on how the radiants should be deployed. Jasnah handles the governance of the Alethi in exile. A lightweaver, or edgedancer, or truthwatcher I think would be far better equipped to guard their charge. A lightweaver could have an illusory double of the target so the child remains safe. Also a lightweaver that learns soulcasting could potentially soulcast away any weapon about to stab into the child. An edgedancer could retreat, and slide the child out of harms way, and heal the child if injured. Same for the truthwatcher. 

I should clarify; Jasnah absolutely wouldn't ask Dalinar (or ask Kaladin directly) to assign a windrunner to protect the child because the windrunner would be good at protecting Gav. She would ask because of the political effect of having the most "knightly" and archetypal type of Radiant guard the heir (or just herself). As Navani says, "The bridgemen didn't understand the power they lent the throne." I bold ask because she is not in charge of the radiants, and it would be a nice moment of humility for her to have to ask Dalinar. Not that she is arrogant, but she is very confident, and a less acute observer (like Kaladin), might attribute arrogance to her.

The edit on your post would point me at saying Sanderson gave outs for Kaladin to care about Gavinor. He did fly there for Drehy and Skar, but we cut to black before Kaladin might say something like, "It hadn't occurred to me that Gavinor was the aim of this mission, but that's really great because I wanted to save him/protect him" kind of thing. Not an affirmation, but not something that Sanderson wanted to focus on at that moment, or maybe just for the surprise effect.

 

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2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Except we were in Kaladin's head, and Kaladin did not think that. 

Kaladin suffers from depression.  It goes on and off.  He met Gavinor on a good day when he had already given up on him and his squires.  So when meeting him he felt great.  Eventually he is going to have a bad day and then he is going to feel terrible about not doing more.

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32 minutes ago, Config2 said:

I want to note that Skar and Drehy certainly have MORE of a right to care about/protect Gavinor, and the most organic thing would be for them to become personal bodyguards for the child (with some quips about how its way easier than looking after Adolin). But, it wouldn't be inorganic for them to be treated as an extension of Kaladin, and even cede the task to him due to lack of confidence (and overconfidence in Kal).

I guess I don't see the need. Why does Kaladin have to be the one to protect Gavinor? He has no familial connection. He did not bond with the child over time (like Skar and Drehy). He did not think of Gavinor when depressed over Kholinar. Skar and Drehy did a perfectly good job while Kaladin was off handling other issues. They handled things very well in a war zone. Why would Kaladin or anyone else think it has to be him to step up and guard Gavinor when Skar and Drehy can just as easily do so and have more of a reason to? Why wouldn't Jasnah give Skar and Drehy a commendation for going above and beyond in preserving the royal line. if anyone should be watching Gavinor, it should be his heroes Skar and Drehy. So I feel it artificially injects emotions in Kaladin towards Gavinor just to put him in a position to force two characters together. For myself you couldn't get more artificial. 

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I also don't want to imply that Kaladin really had to do too much to "save" Gav as you mentioned. I stated that way to convey the scene, not to assert its intent. Skar and Drehy are minor characters unfortunately. Some of their best moments have to be given to others, although I personally like Skar more than Kaladin. Drehy hasn't had any viewpoints so I can't judge.

Who says Gavinor is going to be a major character in the first five? He is heir apparent but Jasnah is Queen. She is the one calling the shots for the Alethi back at Urithiru. Her remaining in the background makes sense. Gavinor remaining in the background makes sense. Skar and Drehy remaining in the background makes sense. I could see Gavinor coming more to fore in the back five, but the front five? The kid is like three. Personally I couldn't see Kaladin being written as playing nursemaid to a 3 year old, versus going out to Roshar fighting the voidbringers. Storms in the early reading for rhythym of war we see

 

Spoiler

See kaladin meeting up with Lirin. Most definitely not hanging out at Urithiru guarding Gavinor.

 

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I also wont comment on the morality of having an external event (like the death of a biological father spurring a surrogate father) being the primary cause for two people to become romantically intertwined. But Sanderson clearly feels it is OK to use as a device, as it is the inciting romantic method for Adolin and Shallan (as well as Warbreaker, Elantris, and Alloy of Law). He may even prefer the logic of a cold soup becoming warm over the serendipity of a soup being warm from the beginning (the idea of love at first sight).

I disagree. Using the child to force two characters together is not to me equitable with Adolin and Shallan, as well as Warbreaker, Elantris, and Alloy of Law having arranged marriages. I do not feel kaladin in particular is necessary to watch over Gavinor. I haven't seen anything that makes me feel he would feel compelled to over anyone else. I haven't seen anything that makes me feel he would be ordered to over anyone else. And I haven't seen anything that makes me feel like he is connected to Gavinor over anyone else. 

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I should clarify; Jasnah absolutely wouldn't ask Dalinar (or ask Kaladin directly) to assign a windrunner to protect the child because the windrunner would be good at protecting Gav. She would ask because of the political effect of having the most "knightly" and archetypal type of Radiant guard the heir (or just herself). As Navani says, "The bridgemen didn't understand the power they lent the throne." I bold ask because she is not in charge of the radiants, and it would be a nice moment of humility for her to have to ask Dalinar. Not that she is arrogant, but she is very confident, and a less acute observer (like Kaladin), might attribute arrogance to her.

Yep. Bridgemen who were radiants/squires. That includes Skar and Drehy. That still doesn't mean it has to be Kaladin over anyone else. As to Jasnah through confidence doing so or not doing so, I disagree and feel my huge post about the character that is Jasnah would explain why she would not. She would think in terms of what would work best (to me), and i see no reason why Skar and Drehy would not be at the top of the list before anyone else. 

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The edit on your post would point me at saying Sanderson gave outs for Kaladin to care about Gavinor. He did fly there for Drehy and Skar, but we cut to black before Kaladin might say something like, "It hadn't occurred to me that Gavinor was the aim of this mission, but that's really great because I wanted to save him/protect him" kind of thing. Not an affirmation, but not something that Sanderson wanted to focus on at that moment, or maybe just for the surprise effect.

That is pure conjecture, so not much point in me responding. (not meant to be dismissive, but realistically how can I reply to that other than I think Sanderson didn't give him an out?)

 

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Kaladin suffers from depression.  It goes on and off.  He met Gavinor on a good day when he had already given up on him and his squires.  So when meeting him he felt great.  Eventually he is going to have a bad day and then he is going to feel terrible about not doing more.

How was being at Kholinar, worried about losing his men, and being unable to protect the new guards he considered his own means he was feeling great? He was terrified everything was going to go pear shaped. His whole reason for accompanying Elhokar was to make sure Elhokar doesn't screw up. Kaladin was tenser than a violin wire. Regardless that still does not explain to me why Kaladin of all people would zero in especially on Gavinor of all people. Kaladin feeling crummy about Dalinar in danger? Sure! Feeling crummy over Adolin, Elhokar, Shallan, any of the bridge 4 members, the guards he got to know? Sure! But a kid he met for a few minutes while Elhokar saved him, and then was promptly grabbed away I do not see. There was no attachment made. No development. No connection that I can see that screams Kaladin has to be the one when Skar and Drehy have all that already in spades. So once again, why not them?

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4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

How was being at Kholinar, worried about losing his men, and being unable to protect the new guards he considered his own means he was feeling great?

I meant the end of the book where he has just discovered that Gav is still alive.

5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Elhokar, Shallan, any of the bridge 4 members, the guards he got to know? Sure! But a kid he met for a few minutes while Elhokar saved him, and then was promptly grabbed away I do not see. There was no attachment made. No development. No connection that I can see that screams Kaladin has to be the one when Skar and Drehy have all that already in spades. So once again, why not them?

Elhokar is dead.  A living family member to remind you about how badly you screwed up is going to be hard.  Anyway we are getting off topic.

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27 minutes ago, Karger said:

I meant the end of the book where he has just discovered that Gav is still alive.

Elhokar is dead.  A living family member to remind you about how badly you screwed up is going to be hard.  Anyway we are getting off topic.

So Kaladin failed to protect his father, so he will remove Skar and Drehy, who successfully in a war zone protected the son, in order to protect the son? I am sorry, I just do not buy it. As I said to config, I feel it is artificially trying to shove in a connection where none exist. That in order for Kaladin and Jasnah to get together, they have to spend time together. Since they would not spend time together to that extent normally, we have to find a way to get to them. Enter Gavinor. Since Kaladin never thought of Gavinor before, lets make him super depressed and seek validation regarding the father through the son. Then he and Jasnah can elope. It feels forced, and I do not think it would work. But that is my own reading of it. 

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I'm with Pathfinder on this one. If Kaladin is going to pick a child to protect, its going to be Oroden, not Gavinor. Kaladin playing dad to Gavinor strains the bounds of credulity.

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2 hours ago, Config2 said:

At least, he hasn't thought about it yet. You make some good points in your post with book quotations. 

However, in his final appearance in Oathbringer, we don't get to see his real reaction to Gavinor being found alive. That leaves it open as to both the role that Gavinor will play in the upcoming two books, and how Kaladin treats him as a way to redeem himself.

We don't get a resting moment with Kaladin after he rescues Gavinor, but after a one year time gap, he will have had plenty of time to think. And it may occur to him that guarding Gavinor is the best way to "make up" for his failure with Ehlokar.

This is all straying for the prime topic though; If Sanderson decides to go the route of a Jasnah+Kaladin pairing, he'll have two ways that are certainly believable if not well laid to get them together. The first is through Gavinor. It think it'd be at the very least believable to make him retroactively feel responsible for Gavinor, even if he didn't demonstrate it so far. The second is through Jasnah herself, who may request Windrunner guards to use their prestige (like Navani does). Kaladin doesn't like being manipulated, but is certainly pragmatic enough to support Jasnah against Sadeas resurgent (or a different Alethi counter-movement). These are outside of more extreme measures like getting them stranded like Kaladin and Shallan.

Basically what I'm saying is that you're right, he hasn't so far demonstrated any connection to Gavinor, but that Gavinor remains a possible avenue for getting Jasnah+Kaladin in the same room for extended periods of time. There would be great humor and the possibility for romance to get those two as surrogate parents for a four (now five) year old.

This was what I was going at when I first mentioned it.  If Kaladin and Jasnah are to get together there has to be a significant plot event to make it so they actually get to know each other.  Though I think you are all looking at it from the perspective of Kaladin -guarding- Gavinor.  That was not the perspective I was looking at it from.

Gavinor has lost his parents in a traumatic fashion.  Most likely, he will be raised by either Jasnah, Dalinar, or Adolin as next of kin.  For the sake of figuring out ways that Kaladin and Jasnah might spend time together, I assumed that Jasnah will be the one to raise him as his adoptive mother.  This would make sense considering that she is Queen and he is the heir to the throne, so she would want to have the decision making power in how he is raised.  Following from that, Jasnah is an intelligent person.  She is going to want a strong father figure for the boy that conforms to her ideals of how a king should act.  It's reasonable to think she might choose Kaladin - he's intelligent, morally sound, and probably less busy than Dalinar.  He's also got that strong nurturing and protective tendency, making him a good father figure.  Adding all these things up, you could see that it would be a reasonable possibility that Jasnah might ask Kaladin to stand in as a father figure for Gavinor to help teach him how to grow into a good man capable of ruling the kingdom someday.

Then, add in the shipping interest.  I think we all agree that as of right now Kaladin doesn't have any romantic interest in Jasnah.  The people who ship Jasnah/Kaladin would argue that she has shown some interest in him.  If they are right and Jasnah is interested in Kaladin romantically, that adds another reason for her to try to get him to spend time with her.  It would actually be a classic romance plot - people forced to act like they're in a relationship by various circumstances while one has a crush on the other and secretly wants the relationship to be real.  It gives Jasnah a chance to open up a little bit and show her more sentimental side.  I think it could be a fun side story if it were to happen.

In reality though, this is all speculation.  I don't think it's super likely for something like this to happen just because it would have to take up a ton of screen time to be done well.  I think Sanderson is not going to want to focus on this kind of story in SA4 and SA5.

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28 minutes ago, agrabes said:

This was what I was going at when I first mentioned it.  If Kaladin and Jasnah are to get together there has to be a significant plot event to make it so they actually get to know each other.  Though I think you are all looking at it from the perspective of Kaladin -guarding- Gavinor.  That was not the perspective I was looking at it from.

I agree that there would need to be a greater plot motivation for them to come together, and there would need to be time for something to develop. I do not think it would occur, but I agree something more than Gavinor would be required if it were to happen. 

28 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Gavinor has lost his parents in a traumatic fashion.  Most likely, he will be raised by either Jasnah, Dalinar, or Adolin as next of kin.  For the sake of figuring out ways that Kaladin and Jasnah might spend time together, I assumed that Jasnah will be the one to raise him as his adoptive mother.  This would make sense considering that she is Queen and he is the heir to the throne, so she would want to have the decision making power in how he is raised.  Following from that, Jasnah is an intelligent person.  She is going to want a strong father figure for the boy that conforms to her ideals of how a king should act.  It's reasonable to think she might choose Kaladin - he's intelligent, morally sound, and probably less busy than Dalinar.  He's also got that strong nurturing and protective tendency, making him a good father figure.  Adding all these things up, you could see that it would be a reasonable possibility that Jasnah might ask Kaladin to stand in as a father figure for Gavinor to help teach him how to grow into a good man capable of ruling the kingdom someday.

That is something else that I run counter to the general view. Everyone seems to think something has to happen with Gavinor right now. The Marvel Cinematic Universe is introducing a younger group here and there, hinting at them, but the movie slate does not mention anything regarding those kids. They are just putting them into place, so when they become something, it does not come out of left field. I feel if Gavinor, and Oroden are focused on now to be raised, regardless the effect it has on anyone's relationship, takes away from the current narrative. So I personally do not see it mattering who raises Gavinor because I do not think its intention is to change anything or affect anything in the current narrative. They are too young. 

Now having said that, I disagree that Gavinor has to have a father figure in order to be raised. I also disagree kaladin would have to be involved or married to Jasnah to provide such. And finally for all the reasons I enumerated earlier, I do not see why Kaladin would take that role for Gavinor. Gavinor already has a family that can accomplish all of that. He has Jasnah, Navani, Dalinar, Adolin, and Renarin. He has sword training ardents in Zahel. I really just don't see why the narrative has to stop to find out who's knee Gavinor bounces on. 

28 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Then, add in the shipping interest.  I think we all agree that as of right now Kaladin doesn't have any romantic interest in Jasnah.  The people who ship Jasnah/Kaladin would argue that she has shown some interest in him.  If they are right and Jasnah is interested in Kaladin romantically, that adds another reason for her to try to get him to spend time with her.  It would actually be a classic romance plot - people forced to act like they're in a relationship by various circumstances while one has a crush on the other and secretly wants the relationship to be real.  It gives Jasnah a chance to open up a little bit and show her more sentimental side.  I think it could be a fun side story if it were to happen.

Yeah, for reasons I already stated on another thread, I do not agree with the arguments put forward that Jasnah is attracted to Kaladin. For instance smiling at the end of the fight? She does the exact same thing with Amaram, and she raises her glowing hand waiting for him to act so she can turn him to smoke. So unless people think Jasnah is the type to kill someone while being attracted to them, I personally don't think that is the case. 

My biggest problem with these shippings regarding Jasnah some start from this place that Jasnah needs to be "fixed". She has to learn empathy from Kaladin. She has to learn not to kill people from Kaladin. She has to learn to be more emotional from Kaladin. She has to learn to be sentimental from Kaladin. It is why I wrote that long thread which I will reference below. Jasnah has more dimensions than that. And just because she does not need to be taught, does not mean she is flawless. It means she is an autonomous individual that does not need another to define her. People can get into relationships all the time and it benefit or hinder them. But in Jasnah's case I really do not see the need. She is a well developed character as she stands, just in my opinion, the reader just has to look a little deeper to see it. 

 

 

28 minutes ago, agrabes said:

In reality though, this is all speculation.  I don't think it's super likely for something like this to happen just because it would have to take up a ton of screen time to be done well.  I think Sanderson is not going to want to focus on this kind of story in SA4 and SA5.

You are right. This is all speculation. Jasnah and Kaladin could end up together and be wonderful. Just from what I see of Jasnah and Kaladin, I personally do not see it being likely. 

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Honestly even if Kaladin ends up stopping in to say hi to Gavinor between missions or whatever I'd be completely perplexed. It'd come off as a military dad who doesn't have custody rights stopping in every once in a while between deployments or whatever and would be super awkward. He has no relation to this child. Kaladin has his own people to look after already. Its weird.

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My biggest problem with these shippings regarding Jasnah some start from this place that Jasnah needs to be "fixed". She has to learn empathy from Kaladin. She has to learn not to kill people from Kaladin. She has to learn to be more emotional from Kaladin. She has to learn to be sentimental from Kaladin. It is why I wrote that long thread which I will reference below. Jasnah has more dimensions than that. And just because she does not need to be taught, does not mean she is flawless. It means she is an autonomous individual that does not need another to define her. People can get into relationships all the time and it benefit or hinder them. But in Jasnah's case I really do not see the need. She is a well developed character as she stands, just in my opinion, the reader just has to look a little deeper to see it. 

There is definitely a lot of subjugating male gaze on Jasnah as a character. Plenty of people don't like that she is as strong as she is, or that she seems to function that way totally without support. I think that Kaladin and Jasnah could really be strong where the other is weak, and not in the dismissive way you present it. Jasnah doesn't need to learn to be emotional or sentimental or less draconian from Kaladin; she needs to learn to be part of a group of less intellectual people. She clearly can form bonds, and is affectionate with her fellow colleagues via reeds, but cannot tolerate a fool as she sees them. So far we have not seen Jasnah work well (or at all) with someone who is less intelligent than her. 

Kaladin, on the other hand, really needs the guide of logic to temper his guilt. Jasnah provides that in droves.  

Kaladin and Jasnah are both broken people by their own admission. They both need to be "fixed" to become as good as they can be. I think Jasnah needs a relationship to help her overcome her personal struggle. That relationship doesn't have to be romantic, and it doesn't need to be with Kaladin, but her personal perfection does require her to reach out to another. Honestly if that isn't the character arc she is on, I really cant see one for her (as we have seen her at least). As a viewpoint character, that almost certainly isn't the case. 

Kaladin needs to be able to let go, and I don't think he is capable of that on his own. He had a real trial immediately before Thaylen field, and failed, even with Syl's help, to overcome his own guilt. He needs assistance, and Jasnah is nearly perfect at controlling herself. She may be able to provide some of that to him.

20 hours ago, Kon-Tiki said:

Honestly even if Kaladin ends up stopping in to say hi to Gavinor between missions or whatever I'd be completely perplexed. It'd come off as a military dad who doesn't have custody rights stopping in every once in a while between deployments or whatever and would be super awkward. He has no relation to this child. Kaladin has his own people to look after already. Its weird.

Thing is, there is a one year gap. If we are told that he has been spending ever free moment hanging out with Gavinor, than we will just have to take that as fact. They could have a connection that is established off-screen, and then built during SA4. I think it would be a nice dimension for Kaladin, he can seem a little shallow at times. As for "his own people" it takes him all of 30 seconds to build those same connections everywhere he goes. It takes him a couple of weeks in Kholinar, and a couple with the Parshmen. He is wildly prolific in making close, almost familial bonds with people, and having that relation to someone who is not a brother in arms would be new. Plus having them close sets up some cool stuff in the back 5. 

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3 minutes ago, Config2 said:

Thing is, there is a one year gap. If we are told that he has been spending ever free moment hanging out with Gavinor, than we will just have to take that as fact. They could have a connection that is established off-screen, and then built during SA4. I think it would be a nice dimension for Kaladin, he can seem a little shallow at times. As for "his own people" it takes him all of 30 seconds to build those same connections everywhere he goes. It takes him a couple of weeks in Kholinar, and a couple with the Parshmen. He is wildly prolific in making close, almost familial bonds with people, and having that relation to someone who is not a brother in arms would be new. Plus having them close sets up some cool stuff in the back 5. 

I'm saying if we came back after a one year gap and Brandon had done this, I'd be baffled. Its without precedent for any of the characters involved and has no setup at all. It'd be weird.

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58 minutes ago, Config2 said:

There is definitely a lot of subjugating male gaze on Jasnah as a character. Plenty of people don't like that she is as strong as she is, or that she seems to function that way totally without support. I think that Kaladin and Jasnah could really be strong where the other is weak, and not in the dismissive way you present it. Jasnah doesn't need to learn to be emotional or sentimental or less draconian from Kaladin; she needs to learn to be part of a group of less intellectual people. She clearly can form bonds, and is affectionate with her fellow colleagues via reeds, but cannot tolerate a fool as she sees them. So far we have not seen Jasnah work well (or at all) with someone who is less intelligent than her. 

There is a difference to me (and I believe to Jasnah) between a fool and someone less intelligent. Taravangian appeared less intelligent than a lot of people. He was derided and ignored by the highlords of his own city that he rules, yet when Shallan nearly made a cutting comment to the king, and admitted to it later, Jasnah admonished her. She said that someone like Taravangian is someone to be admired and respected for trying to make peace instead of war. Just because his intelligence seemed less, did not change the respect she felt for him. Conversely have someone like Kabsal show up and try to convert her and or steal from her, and he will be considered a fool that she has no time for. Please really read the thread I linked you to. There are plenty of examples of Jasnah working with people of various backgrounds, and treating them with the respect and deference they deserve. From sailors, to religious scholars, to ardents, to soldiers, other scholars and so on. I do not see that a relationship is required for her to be capable of these things. 

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Kaladin, on the other hand, really needs the guide of logic to temper his guilt. Jasnah provides that in droves.  

I do not think Kaladin needs an "infusion" of logic either. I think he needs to grow and learn responsibility is not always on his shoulders, but that isn't so much logic as acceptance of bodily autonomy. 

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Kaladin and Jasnah are both broken people by their own admission. They both need to be "fixed" to become as good as they can be. I think Jasnah needs a relationship to help her overcome her personal struggle. That relationship doesn't have to be romantic, and it doesn't need to be with Kaladin, but her personal perfection does require her to reach out to another. Honestly if that isn't the character arc she is on, I really cant see one for her (as we have seen her at least). As a viewpoint character, that almost certainly isn't the case. 

Again, I really ask you to read the thread I posted. From what I have researched, she isn't holding herself to this ideal "perfection". She is presenting a face in order to exist in a male, religious dominated world. Logic and reason are her shield. She deeply loves and cares for her family, and humanity on whole with how hard she worked herself to exhaustion in researching the desolations to stop them. That is why I continually find problems with these ships. It always comes across to me, and I am sorry to say this, but as if the person has no understanding of Jasnah as a character, and figured she is available, lets pair her off. There is a whole lot of depth to Jasnah that I feel tells me that a relationship with Kaladin would not happen and not work. 

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Kaladin needs to be able to let go, and I don't think he is capable of that on his own. He had a real trial immediately before Thaylen field, and failed, even with Syl's help, to overcome his own guilt. He needs assistance, and Jasnah is nearly perfect at controlling herself. She may be able to provide some of that to him.

I do not think Kaladin needs to control himself. That is what Lirin kept telling him and that never worked. I think he needs to learn to respect other people's choices, which he is starting to learn at the end of Oathbringer. I do not feel Jasnah is required for him to grow in this regard. 

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Thing is, there is a one year gap. If we are told that he has been spending ever free moment hanging out with Gavinor, than we will just have to take that as fact. They could have a connection that is established off-screen, and then built during SA4. I think it would be a nice dimension for Kaladin, he can seem a little shallow at times. As for "his own people" it takes him all of 30 seconds to build those same connections everywhere he goes. It takes him a couple of weeks in Kholinar, and a couple with the Parshmen. He is wildly prolific in making close, almost familial bonds with people, and having that relation to someone who is not a brother in arms would be new. Plus having them close sets up some cool stuff in the back 5. 

If it happened off screen then as Kon-Tiki stated, I would buy it even less. It would feel forced because any gradual development that would be natural, would not exist. We would be told, instead of shown. 

53 minutes ago, Kon-Tiki said:

I'm saying if we came back after a one year gap and Brandon had done this, I'd be baffled. Its without precedent for any of the characters involved and has no setup at all. It'd be weird.

I agree. 

 

 

edit: instead of constantly picking apart other people's thoughts on Jasnah and Kaladin. I will say this. I continually see the arguments as to why they should be together are:

 

1. Jasnah needs an arc. Her and kaladin coming together and being stronger for it is an arc. Without that, what arc does she have?

  A. Jasnah and Renarin working to understand his corrupted spren is an arc that involves relationships, with someone she loves

  B. Jasnah confronting her history in the dark room screaming, as she wondered if she is insane with the help of Ivory is an arc. Teft had hints of a dark past. Then hints of addiction popped up. Then he was full on back slide. He then confronted and over came his addiction with the help of his spren. All without a relationship. Why can't Jasnah do the same?

 

2. Jasnah needs Kaladin to help her become more emotional. That is her flaw. If she does not have that as a flaw, then she has no flaws and is an uninteresting character. 

  A. Jasnah has been hurt in the past trusting people she loved. Yet she still loves and trusts her family. This has resulted in a paranoia that is well founded because she has survived multiple assassination attempts. Maintaining that trust and love in her family, while trying to remain safe while letting herself feel vulnerable to them is a very difficult balance to maintain. Once again, a romantic relationship is not needed. 

 

Finally Brandon has said the reason why the focus was not on Jasnah and Renarin in the first five books, is there is too much to unpack. There were too many people with big parts to play. So he has to be careful with bringing them out, because as he said with Renarin, he is a "pandoras" box. Same with Taln. The first five is not meant to put a spot light on Jasnah. That is for the back five. 

 

 

edit2

Little tid bit. Jasnah's "original" arc was Taln showing up claiming to be a herald. No one believed him including her. Then she researched, and began to believe him, and championed his cause. Brandon ultimately changed this, because as I said, he felt too much was going on at the same time, so Jasnah, Renarin, and Taln were shunted to the back five. 

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On 11/6/2019 at 4:44 PM, Pathfinder said:

I agree that there would need to be a greater plot motivation for them to come together, and there would need to be time for something to develop. I do not think it would occur, but I agree something more than Gavinor would be required if it were to happen. 

That is something else that I run counter to the general view. Everyone seems to think something has to happen with Gavinor right now. The Marvel Cinematic Universe is introducing a younger group here and there, hinting at them, but the movie slate does not mention anything regarding those kids. They are just putting them into place, so when they become something, it does not come out of left field. I feel if Gavinor, and Oroden are focused on now to be raised, regardless the effect it has on anyone's relationship, takes away from the current narrative. So I personally do not see it mattering who raises Gavinor because I do not think its intention is to change anything or affect anything in the current narrative. They are too young. 

Now having said that, I disagree that Gavinor has to have a father figure in order to be raised. I also disagree kaladin would have to be involved or married to Jasnah to provide such. And finally for all the reasons I enumerated earlier, I do not see why Kaladin would take that role for Gavinor. Gavinor already has a family that can accomplish all of that. He has Jasnah, Navani, Dalinar, Adolin, and Renarin. He has sword training ardents in Zahel. I really just don't see why the narrative has to stop to find out who's knee Gavinor bounces on. 

Yeah, for reasons I already stated on another thread, I do not agree with the arguments put forward that Jasnah is attracted to Kaladin. For instance smiling at the end of the fight? She does the exact same thing with Amaram, and she raises her glowing hand waiting for him to act so she can turn him to smoke. So unless people think Jasnah is the type to kill someone while being attracted to them, I personally don't think that is the case. 

My biggest problem with these shippings regarding Jasnah some start from this place that Jasnah needs to be "fixed". She has to learn empathy from Kaladin. She has to learn not to kill people from Kaladin. She has to learn to be more emotional from Kaladin. She has to learn to be sentimental from Kaladin. It is why I wrote that long thread which I will reference below. Jasnah has more dimensions than that. And just because she does not need to be taught, does not mean she is flawless. It means she is an autonomous individual that does not need another to define her. People can get into relationships all the time and it benefit or hinder them. But in Jasnah's case I really do not see the need. She is a well developed character as she stands, just in my opinion, the reader just has to look a little deeper to see it. 

 

 

You are right. This is all speculation. Jasnah and Kaladin could end up together and be wonderful. Just from what I see of Jasnah and Kaladin, I personally do not see it being likely. 

I just want to be clear, I don't personally ship Jasnah and Kaladin together.  I agree with you that there is no real reason to believe Jasnah is interested in Kaladin.  I'm just trying to come up with a way that I could personally enjoy it as a plot arc if they did get together.  I really don't think that anything has to happen with Gavinor.  Most likely he will not get much if any more screen time at least in the first five books.  I am only mentioning him because his parenting could be a possible reasonable way for Jasnah and Kaladin to spend time together if things were to go that way.  Even if it did go that way, the arc is not really going to be about Gavinor and he would only be a very minor part in it.

I agree that Gavinor doesn't absolutely need a father figure to be raised.  Plenty of children have been raised successfully without fathers.  But, (real world) data shows that children tend to do better statistically if they have a positive male role model in their life that can spend time with them.  I'm going to assume that this is also true in the Cosmere.  As a person who thinks with logic and analysis, Jasnah is likely to recognize this and make sure that any child she raises has a positive male role model.  There's no reason it has to be Kaladin.  It could be Dalinar if he has time, or if Gavinor is pretty much just raised off screen then it could be any random background person.  I'm sure there are plenty of good men that Jasnah knows that aren't important to the story so they stay off screen.  Renarin is a good person, but wouldn't be a great role model for a king based on his personality type.  The same with Adolin - he's a good person but doesn't really have a king's temperament - he refused to be king after all.  Kaladin does, so does Dalinar.  So again, I don't think it will go this way but it wouldn't be crazy if Jasnah did ask Kaladin to be a father figure or positive male role model for Gavinor.

You seem to have really strong feelings about Jasnah as a character, but I don't.  In my view, right now she is just one of several secondary characters.  I believe she is fine on her own and also fine with someone else.  Based on comments from others in this thread about Kaladin's love life I'm just engaging in a hypothetical scenario to see if in my own mind there is a reasonable way she could get together with Kaladin.  In my view, it's possible, but unlikely.

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1 hour ago, agrabes said:

I just want to be clear, I don't personally ship Jasnah and Kaladin together.  I agree with you that there is no real reason to believe Jasnah is interested in Kaladin.  I'm just trying to come up with a way that I could personally enjoy it as a plot arc if they did get together.  I really don't think that anything has to happen with Gavinor.  Most likely he will not get much if any more screen time at least in the first five books.  I am only mentioning him because his parenting could be a possible reasonable way for Jasnah and Kaladin to spend time together if things were to go that way.  Even if it did go that way, the arc is not really going to be about Gavinor and he would only be a very minor part in it.

I agree that Gavinor doesn't absolutely need a father figure to be raised.  Plenty of children have been raised successfully without fathers.  But, (real world) data shows that children tend to do better statistically if they have a positive male role model in their life that can spend time with them.  I'm going to assume that this is also true in the Cosmere.  As a person who thinks with logic and analysis, Jasnah is likely to recognize this and make sure that any child she raises has a positive male role model.  There's no reason it has to be Kaladin.  It could be Dalinar if he has time, or if Gavinor is pretty much just raised off screen then it could be any random background person.  I'm sure there are plenty of good men that Jasnah knows that aren't important to the story so they stay off screen.  Renarin is a good person, but wouldn't be a great role model for a king based on his personality type.  The same with Adolin - he's a good person but doesn't really have a king's temperament - he refused to be king after all.  Kaladin does, so does Dalinar.  So again, I don't think it will go this way but it wouldn't be crazy if Jasnah did ask Kaladin to be a father figure or positive male role model for Gavinor.

You seem to have really strong feelings about Jasnah as a character, but I don't.  In my view, right now she is just one of several secondary characters.  I believe she is fine on her own and also fine with someone else.  Based on comments from others in this thread about Kaladin's love life I'm just engaging in a hypothetical scenario to see if in my own mind there is a reasonable way she could get together with Kaladin.  In my view, it's possible, but unlikely.

You and anyone else are perfectly entitled to think it is reasonable for Kaladin and Jasnah to get together. I personally disagree that we should start from a place of "Kaladin and Jasnah get together" and then "lets find good reasons why they would". Personally I feel the process is the reverse. Notice things that are developing, either individually, or together for the characters, that then show they may end of together. So perhaps that is why I do not see what everyone else does? It is the equivalency to me of saying Renarin and Lyn should get together. They have had no interactions one on one at all, but now they are in bridge 4 together, they are male and female, and they both feel separate from the main stream for separate reasons. Lyn would teach Renarin to be more assertive in his feelings and stand up for himself, while Renarin would teach Lyn to be more thoughtful on her actions before she takes them. Because they are both members of bridge 4, they will end up spending all the time together, and after the 1 year gap, we will see subtle glances, lingering hand holding, blushing, and etc. For me I do not see it. Renarin is not with bridge 4 as much anymore because he is still trying to find where he "belongs". They welcome him as himself, but as Rock said, he has to decide for himself what he wants from life. That maybe being a scholar isn't so bad after all. Interest in Lyn would result in him spending more time with bridge 4, and thinking he has to be more martial. Could they potentially bond over trying to break gender norms? (her wanting to be in a male dominated area, while Renarin in a female dominated one) Sure! But I do not see it being romantic, and I do not see romance benefiting the characters. Renarin is already on that path, and he already has the help of Jasnah, Dalinar, Navani, and Adolin. The relationship would just be extra. Which isn't a problem in and of itself, but getting to that relationship is when we have, in my opinion, no foundation for it. That is what I am trying to say with Jasnah and Kaladin. I feel like it is taking two magnets and instead of turning them at opposing poles, so they are naturally draw to each other till they link, it is taking two magnets, and directing the same poles at each other, and then coming up with circumstances to push the magnets together, and then adding glue to keep it there. The magnets of the same poles naturally repel each other, so why add outside forces to push them together, and then add an additional outside force to keep them there? Could Jasnah do something that makes Kaladin suddenly drop everything, utterly lost in her eyes, and embrace her confessing his deepest love for her? Sure! Could Kaladin do something to cause Jasnah to hop into Kaladin's lap and beg him to marry her? Sure! Could a meteor suddenly shoot through space and hit Braize at just the right place to throw Braize out of orbit, resulting in Odium no longer being a threat to Roshar? (not talking mechanics) Sure! Anything could theoretically happen. Just based on my reading of the characters, I do not see/beleive:

 

1. the need for the characters to get involved (they will make each other better. I disagree)

2. the reason they would get involved (They will raise Gavinor together. I disagree)

3. they are attracted to each other (Jasnah smiled after a fight with Kaladin, they are both intelligent. I disagree)

4. it would progress the characters (give Jasnah an arc and help Kaladin progress in his oaths. I disagree)

 

Repeatedly throughout my posts I never said anyone was wrong. I hoped what I conveyed is that my personal reading and understanding of Kaladin and Jasnah says to me they would not get together. That the reasons I have read do not feel plausible to me to lead to their involvement. People are more than welcome and entitled to think otherwise and I wish them luck with their ship. Just for myself, the ship does not sail, and the reasons I have stated in this thread, as well as referenced in the Jasnah thread (which I reference because instead of going over stuff I already went over, I figure it is better to just point to a place I went into it) are why it does not sail for me. Jasnah as the character I have read, would not get involved with Kaladin. The thread I linked shows Jasnah the character I have read. I totally acknowledge Brandon could write them together and it be wonderful and amazing. And I will be the first eager to read it. But to me saying something could happen, does not mean it is likely to happen. I could say I could win a million bucks tomorrow. Since I do not normally buy lottery tickets, me as a character would be unlikely to win a million bucks. So if someone said to me the reader that me the character will win a million bucks in the next chapter because they think money will benefit me as the character, I will answer I do not see it. The character has taken no actions to make me believe they would win a million bucks, so although I acknowledge it could happen, there is nothing that makes me believe it would. So that ship does not sail for me. 

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7 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Could Jasnah do something that makes Kaladin suddenly drop everything, utterly lost in her eyes, and embrace her confessing his deepest love for her

Vomits.  I don't think even the most hard core shipper would be on board with that.

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12 minutes ago, Karger said:

Vomits.  I don't think even the most hard core shipper would be on board with that.

LOL. Ultimately I think what it comes down to it is what is central to my understanding of Jasnah and Kaladin means they would not get together, and if they did it would not work. That core part of my understanding of them would by extension see any reason to get them together as artificial and forced. So this has become less a discussion, and more an attempt to convince me, when me pointing to my thread on Jasnah is essentially (i did not realize this originally but do now) me saying my mind cannot be changed. Kind of saying "That is Jasnah to me. That Jasnah would not get in a relationship with Kaladin." So it is kind of unfair to all to continue to bring up reasons that Jasnah and Kaladin would work, just for me to say all the reasons why that new reason would not work for me. I think I adequately related my stance at length, so me responding to further reasons would I think be counter productive. So I guess good luck to those who believe the ship. If it happens, I hope you get all you wanted. if it doesn't, I hope you still get the development you sought from the relationship in another manner. 

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3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So I guess good luck to those who believe the ship. If it happens, I hope you get all you wanted. if it doesn't, I hope you still get the development you sought from the relationship in another manner. 

Agreed.

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21 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

You and anyone else are perfectly entitled to think it is reasonable for Kaladin and Jasnah to get together. I personally disagree that we should start from a place of "Kaladin and Jasnah get together" and then "lets find good reasons why they would". Personally I feel the process is the reverse. Notice things that are developing, either individually, or together for the characters, that then show they may end of together. So perhaps that is why I do not see what everyone else does? It is the equivalency to me of saying Renarin and Lyn should get together. They have had no interactions one on one at all, but now they are in bridge 4 together, they are male and female, and they both feel separate from the main stream for separate reasons. Lyn would teach Renarin to be more assertive in his feelings and stand up for himself, while Renarin would teach Lyn to be more thoughtful on her actions before she takes them. Because they are both members of bridge 4, they will end up spending all the time together, and after the 1 year gap, we will see subtle glances, lingering hand holding, blushing, and etc. For me I do not see it. Renarin is not with bridge 4 as much anymore because he is still trying to find where he "belongs". They welcome him as himself, but as Rock said, he has to decide for himself what he wants from life. That maybe being a scholar isn't so bad after all. Interest in Lyn would result in him spending more time with bridge 4, and thinking he has to be more martial. Could they potentially bond over trying to break gender norms? (her wanting to be in a male dominated area, while Renarin in a female dominated one) Sure! But I do not see it being romantic, and I do not see romance benefiting the characters. Renarin is already on that path, and he already has the help of Jasnah, Dalinar, Navani, and Adolin. The relationship would just be extra. Which isn't a problem in and of itself, but getting to that relationship is when we have, in my opinion, no foundation for it. That is what I am trying to say with Jasnah and Kaladin. I feel like it is taking two magnets and instead of turning them at opposing poles, so they are naturally draw to each other till they link, it is taking two magnets, and directing the same poles at each other, and then coming up with circumstances to push the magnets together, and then adding glue to keep it there. The magnets of the same poles naturally repel each other, so why add outside forces to push them together, and then add an additional outside force to keep them there? Could Jasnah do something that makes Kaladin suddenly drop everything, utterly lost in her eyes, and embrace her confessing his deepest love for her? Sure! Could Kaladin do something to cause Jasnah to hop into Kaladin's lap and beg him to marry her? Sure! Could a meteor suddenly shoot through space and hit Braize at just the right place to throw Braize out of orbit, resulting in Odium no longer being a threat to Roshar? (not talking mechanics) Sure! Anything could theoretically happen. Just based on my reading of the characters, I do not see/beleive:

 

1. the need for the characters to get involved (they will make each other better. I disagree)

2. the reason they would get involved (They will raise Gavinor together. I disagree)

3. they are attracted to each other (Jasnah smiled after a fight with Kaladin, they are both intelligent. I disagree)

4. it would progress the characters (give Jasnah an arc and help Kaladin progress in his oaths. I disagree)

 

Repeatedly throughout my posts I never said anyone was wrong. I hoped what I conveyed is that my personal reading and understanding of Kaladin and Jasnah says to me they would not get together. That the reasons I have read do not feel plausible to me to lead to their involvement. People are more than welcome and entitled to think otherwise and I wish them luck with their ship. Just for myself, the ship does not sail, and the reasons I have stated in this thread, as well as referenced in the Jasnah thread (which I reference because instead of going over stuff I already went over, I figure it is better to just point to a place I went into it) are why it does not sail for me. Jasnah as the character I have read, would not get involved with Kaladin. The thread I linked shows Jasnah the character I have read. I totally acknowledge Brandon could write them together and it be wonderful and amazing. And I will be the first eager to read it. But to me saying something could happen, does not mean it is likely to happen. I could say I could win a million bucks tomorrow. Since I do not normally buy lottery tickets, me as a character would be unlikely to win a million bucks. So if someone said to me the reader that me the character will win a million bucks in the next chapter because they think money will benefit me as the character, I will answer I do not see it. The character has taken no actions to make me believe they would win a million bucks, so although I acknowledge it could happen, there is nothing that makes me believe it would. So that ship does not sail for me. 

Yeah, I think we're mostly debating about nothing here.  We're in agreement about the Kaladin/Jasnah ship.  The way you have worded your replies makes it feel like you are telling me I need to stop believing that Kaladin and Jasnah would get together, but I don't believe that they will get together.  That may not be your intent, but it comes off that way.  I'm just engaging in a thought experiment to figure out why people do ship them and how it might happen because I don't see it.  That was what my first post on this topic was about - talking with someone who was a Kaladin/Jasnah shipper and trying to understand their viewpoint.  Then, a lot of other people took the conversation in a totally different direction.  My follow up responses have been to try to clarify what I said originally.  So, I guess if you're interested in debating what I said, I wanted to make sure you have it in the right frame of reference.   I'm fine with debating about whether the scenario I presented is or is not plausible - assuming Sanderson has decided Kaladin and Jasnah will be together starting in SA4, what is the most logical way for that to happen.  I'm not making any arguments about whether I think Kaladin/Jasnah should get together, or what I think of Jasnah as a character, nor am I advocating for Gavinor to play a major role in SA4, etc.

To sum it up in terms of what seems to be your way of thinking:

I don't believe there is a need for Kaladin and Jasnah to get together.  I don't believe they have been shown to be attracted to each other.  I don't believe that anything we have seen in the books up to this point suggests there is a reason they were to get involved.  I disagree with your assertion that there's no possible way a relationship between Kaladin and Jasnah could provide any significant benefit to the other, but I don't think they will get together and don't particularly want them to get together, so that point is mostly irrelevant to me.  I enjoyed speculating about how it might happen if they did get together, but this discussion has gone way off the rails and isn't fun anymore.

 

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38 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Yeah, I think we're mostly debating about nothing here.  We're in agreement about the Kaladin/Jasnah ship.  The way you have worded your replies makes it feel like you are telling me I need to stop believing that Kaladin and Jasnah would get together, but I don't believe that they will get together.  That may not be your intent, but it comes off that way.  I'm just engaging in a thought experiment to figure out why people do ship them and how it might happen because I don't see it.  That was what my first post on this topic was about - talking with someone who was a Kaladin/Jasnah shipper and trying to understand their viewpoint.  Then, a lot of other people took the conversation in a totally different direction.  My follow up responses have been to try to clarify what I said originally.  So, I guess if you're interested in debating what I said, I wanted to make sure you have it in the right frame of reference.   I'm fine with debating about whether the scenario I presented is or is not plausible - assuming Sanderson has decided Kaladin and Jasnah will be together starting in SA4, what is the most logical way for that to happen.  I'm not making any arguments about whether I think Kaladin/Jasnah should get together, or what I think of Jasnah as a character, nor am I advocating for Gavinor to play a major role in SA4, etc.

To sum it up in terms of what seems to be your way of thinking:

I don't believe there is a need for Kaladin and Jasnah to get together.  I don't believe they have been shown to be attracted to each other.  I don't believe that anything we have seen in the books up to this point suggests there is a reason they were to get involved.  I disagree with your assertion that there's no possible way a relationship between Kaladin and Jasnah could provide any significant benefit to the other, but I don't think they will get together and don't particularly want them to get together, so that point is mostly irrelevant to me.  I enjoyed speculating about how it might happen if they did get together, but this discussion has gone way off the rails and isn't fun anymore.

 

Honestly I don't really see where I ever said you had to see things my way, or agree with me. I feel all I have been saying is I personally do not see it and why. Feel free to do the thought experiment as you wish. For myself, as I said in my response to Karger:

"So I guess good luck to those who believe the ship. If it happens, I hope you get all you wanted. if it doesn't, I hope you still get the development you sought from the relationship in another manner. "

 

edit: I should probably just leave it, but to put it another way. If Person A believes in the ship and puts forward gavinor as a reason the ship will happen. Then Person B does not believe in the ship, but does a thought experiment on how it could happen and puts forward gavinor as a potential reason the ship could hypothetically happen, then my response in both scenarios would be the same. I would list why I do not think gavinor would play a part in my opinion, which is why I personally do not see the ship happening, or the hypothetical from occurring. But in both circumstances my intention was never to tell Person A they were not allowed to believe in the ship, nor tell Person B they were not allowed to work out the thought experiment. So I believe in both circumstances I was discussing in good faith. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Honestly I don't really see where I ever said you had to see things my way, or agree with me. I feel all I have been saying is I personally do not see it and why. Feel free to do the thought experiment as you wish. For myself, as I said in my response to Karger:

"So I guess good luck to those who believe the ship. If it happens, I hope you get all you wanted. if it doesn't, I hope you still get the development you sought from the relationship in another manner. "

No one says that in words in a discussion.  You said several times that things you extrapolated from my posts would never happen.  That is equivalent to saying that someone else needs to see things your way.  And that's ok - it's perfectly fine to disagree with me and argue why I should see things the way you do, that's what makes it fun to come on these boards.  The problem here is you're arguing about one thing and I'm trying to talk about something else.

This thing has gotten way off the rails.  So let's just leave it there.

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1 hour ago, agrabes said:

No one says that in words in a discussion.  You said several times that things you extrapolated from my posts would never happen.  That is equivalent to saying that someone else needs to see things your way.  And that's ok - it's perfectly fine to disagree with me and argue why I should see things the way you do, that's what makes it fun to come on these boards.  The problem here is you're arguing about one thing and I'm trying to talk about something else.

This thing has gotten way off the rails.  So let's just leave it there.

I am sorry but I feel you are miss-representing me, especially when you have practically said the same exact thing as I have, just in regards to Adolin and Shallan. I have posted your post and mine below side by side. If me expressing my opinion is the equivalency to me saying you have to think the way I do, then you have done the same. I do not understand why what I have said can be received in such a counter manner

 

You said:

I do agree with your perspective of what love is - not a feeling but a decision, a commitment, and an active effort.  I just don't see that any of that was built up in the Shallan/Adolin plot.  Throughout WoR and most of OB the relationship was sort of coasting along based on expectations of the engagement and not based on deep feelings or emotions for each other.  It also did not seem like either had a strong desire to be married to each other for less romantic reasons like family honor, etc.  They enjoyed each other's company and were physically attracted to each other, but never seemed like a pair that would have gotten together if it weren't for the fact that they were in an arranged engagement for political reasons before they ever met.  Shallan in particular seemed to care very little about her relationship and seemed to place it very low on her priority list.  She was never against it, but she was never trying to actively advance the relationship either.  The sudden choice of getting married which Shallan seemed to justify to herself based on deep feelings that Adolin was the one for her felt out of place.  There weren't any strong feelings shown on screen except in one scene and really only from Adolin's side.  It felt wrong and unearned to me.  Had Shallan's choice been justified based on the fact that she believes marrying Adolin is the right thing to do based on all the logical reasons (politics, already engaged, etc) and that they enjoy each other's company and can make the marriage work, then great.  That would have felt right and in context.  I didn't get that sense.

By contrast, Kaladin's feelings toward Shallan were well developed and built up slowly.  They were not simply placed together before they ever met, Kaladin made the active choice to pursue her at a meaningful cost to himself (at least in terms of romance) and developed feelings toward her completely of his own accord.  Shallan never had romantic feelings for Kaladin and that was also well written.  She actually actively thought about him and figured out how she felt over time on multiple occasions.

But, now that a month has passed on this one, I'll just say to each their own on this.  Different people pick up on different things and it seems like to some people they felt like there were a lot of hints and clues that Adolin and Shallan really wanted to be together.  I never got that sense, but that could just be my own tastes.

 

 

I said:

 

I guess I don't see the need. Why does Kaladin have to be the one to protect Gavinor? He has no familial connection. He did not bond with the child over time (like Skar and Drehy). He did not think of Gavinor when depressed over Kholinar. Skar and Drehy did a perfectly good job while Kaladin was off handling other issues. They handled things very well in a war zone. Why would Kaladin or anyone else think it has to be him to step up and guard Gavinor when Skar and Drehy can just as easily do so and have more of a reason to? Why wouldn't Jasnah give Skar and Drehy a commendation for going above and beyond in preserving the royal line. if anyone should be watching Gavinor, it should be his heroes Skar and Drehy. So I feel it artificially injects emotions in Kaladin towards Gavinor just to put him in a position to force two characters together. For myself you couldn't get more artificial. 

 

That is just one I posted, but I personally do not see the difference between how I spoke and how you spoke. You do not see any build up between Adolin and Shallan. The things people mentioned did not work for you. You explained why and ended it to each their own. I did not take what you said to mean others had to see things the way you do. My intention was not to do that either. 

 

edit: know what? never mind. I am done with this.

Edited by Pathfinder
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On 10/6/2019 at 1:47 PM, TheGirlWhoLookedUp said:

Okay, there’s a lot of good arguments there but I’m thinking, what if Kaladin was aromantic. They may or may not have a name for it on Roshar, but what if Kaladin realizes that he doesn’t want to be in a relationship. In the past he had Tara but wasn’t committed to her. At the end of Oathbringer he accepts Shallan marrying Adolin saying he never really was in love with her.

Instead of falling in love with someone, he learns to love himself.

Of course there's no such thing as 'falling in love', so Kaladin's end choice about Shallan, whatever his sexual orientation,  was the logical one. You can have couples with compatible personalities, and even those who love each other after several years, but the only instantaneous feeling that people ever have when they first see each other is sexual attraction, which is what many mistake for falling in love. He was crushing on Shallan, but knew he didn't actually love her.

     OB spoilers:

Spoiler

On a slightly different note, because Veil was the personality most attracted to Kaladin but still not the original personality, a relationship with him would have furthered the separation of Shallan's personalities, exacerbating her already difficult double life. On the other hand, a relationship with Adolin helped to heal the rifts between Shallan, Veil, and Brightness making it better for her in the end, even if Adolin doesn't have a sexy smoldering gaze.

On 11/8/2019 at 9:09 AM, Pathfinder said:

 Could Jasnah do something that makes Kaladin suddenly drop everything, utterly lost in her eyes, and embrace her confessing his deepest love for her?

She'd probably have to find some way to outdo Shallan on page 622 of OB:P

 

On 11/9/2019 at 7:02 AM, VinDiesel said:

Kaladin and Azure. 

I've been considering this for over a year now. Vivenna x Kaladin is certainly worth further thought, although we haven't heard a lot about her* yet, so I am uncertain.

*At least not in the SA

Edited by Elend Venture
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