Kaladin's Love Life

[TheGirlWhoLookedUp]

3 hours ago, Vindo said:

My vote is Kaladin finds someone in the back five, even make is a non issue. Be like hey, its been x amount of years and Kaladin found someone got married and had a kid. To be honest I would really love to see how kaladin would handle having a kid. Given how over protective he is, especially of those close to him it could lead to some funny moments. Also adding Syl in as an adoring Aunt would be some comedic gold. 

Just think though! We don’t have to wait for him to have his own kid. When Kaladin goes back to his family he’ll get to be with Oroden.

I can just imagine him playing with Oroden and using his powers to make him laugh.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, TheGirlWhoLookedUp said:

I can just imagine him playing with Oroden and using his powers to make him laugh.

And Aunt Syl!

[agrabes]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

More of "Spensa is clearly in an inferior possession to him so it would be difficult for her to refuse that kind of relationship and that calls into question whether or not she is consenting freely."

I mostly agree but I would like to point out that people are different.  I am also not alone my my sentiment.

Shallan could have left the relationship there and made a few public appearances for appearances sake if she really wanted to.  She chose to spend time with him.

Then how do you explain all of his caring for her well being, his interest in her studies and latter her Radiance, the amount of time they spend having fun together, or the fact that he constantly is looking out for her interests and helping her get to know his family?

More.  Syl who is unframilure with human relationships does not really get how Kaladin feels about Shallan.  Considering he does not really know how he feels this makes sense.

A therapist is not necessarily a bad thing.  Also the fact that Kaladin is happier around Shallan does not mean he is romantically attracted to her.

Like Shallan and Adolin?

Most of their Romance happened a long time ago.  Navani is introduced as Dalinar's old flame.  Of course we know they like each other from the get go.  Also from our conversation that seems like your kind of love story not mine.

I understand your point about Spensa and agree that aspect is also something that requires a careful approach.  Obviously, this is something that can be a problem in real life.  I don't have any hints of that kind of situation going on here.  I also agree, you're not the only one who feels the way you do regarding romance in general.  

I'm not trying to make this a shipping thread, but I'll just say this about the Adolin/Shallan relationship.  Everything he does with her and everything you list, he could also have done as a completely platonic friend.  Their relationship starts out by default as "romantic" in the sense that they have an arranged marriage.  Had it not started with the requirement of a marriage, there is a good chance it would have gone down a totally different path.  As it is, what was shown on screen was that they were good to each other and probably good for each other, but not that either of them showed any romantic feelings for the other.  And there's nothing wrong with that - my own marriage is more on the supportive and loving side than passionate romantic side.  But in terms of a romance plot in a work of fiction, the Adolin/Shallan romance left a bit to be desired.  The only good part of that arc that felt real and fitting of a romance plot was Adolin's reaction after he feels Shallan would rather be with Kaladin.  That was well done, which is why I say Adolin's character was written reasonably well.  He also gets more slack because he's a secondary character with less screen time.

The point is - the only reason that you would know Adolin and Shallan's relationship is supposed to be romantic outside of the small cluster of scenes when she confirms to him that she wants to be with him rather than Kaladin is that they are betrothed.  Adolin never thinks about Shallan when she's not on screen in a romantic way, though again I give the writing of his character slack for this based on his limited screen time.  Shallan never thinks of Adolin in a romantic way when he is not around either.  She thinks in terms of meeting expectations of both Adolin and his family, raising her own family's circumstances, etc.  Again - I'm not saying this in a shipping wars context.  I'm using it as a demonstration that I believe Sanderson failed to convey what he wanted in the Adolin/Shallan romance arc.  Though, again, staying out of shipping wars territory, if you did dip your toe into that area there could be alternate explanations.

Contrast Adolin/Shallan (imo, poorly written) with Wax/Steris (imo, well written).  Both are arranged political marriages between people who didn't know each other.  I've already talked far too long about Adolin/Shallan, but the difference with Wax/Steris is you really get the sense that the two of them grow a true relationship over the course of the book.  Each of them learns to appreciate the other and even makes slight changes to themselves to accommodate their relationship.  Steris is thought to be so inflexible and rigid that she will just ruin everything, but she forces herself into the mix of things and proves everyone wrong - especially Wax.  She even opens up to Wax about how her feelings and personality restrict her and make it hard for her to interact with everyone else, but that she still has feelings and cares.  You just don't get that same sense of shared growth with Shallan and Adolin.  With their romance plot, it was mostly a don't show, don't tell.

I agree that having a therapist isn't a bad thing, nor does it -necessarily- mean that being happier around someone means you are attracted to them.  But, it's one more piece of the puzzle to force Kaladin to admit his feelings.  Here is the section I was talking about earlier (Oathbringer Ch. 99):

Quote

"You should go talk to her," Syl said, sitting next to him.

"About wasting Stormlight?" Kaladin said.  Yes, perhaps I should.  She does seem inclined to be frivolous with who she expends it for."

Syl rolled her eyes.

"What?"

"Don't go lecture her, silly.  Chat with her.  About life.  About fun things."  Syl nudged him with her foot.  "I know you want to.  I can feel that you do.  Be glad I'm the wrong kind of spren, or I would probably be licking your forehead or something to get at your emotions."

The ship surged against a wave of beads.  The souls of things in the physical world.

"Shallan is betrothed to Adolin," Kaladin said.

"Which isn't an oath," Syl said.  "It's a promise to maybe make an oath sometime." 

"It's still not the sort of thing you play around with."

Syl rested her hand on his knee.  "Kaladin, I'm your spren.  It's my duty to make sure that you're not alone."

"Is that so? Who decided?"

"I did.  And don't give me excuses about not being lonely, or about 'only needing your brothers in arms.'  You can't lie to me.  You feel dark, sad.  You need something, someone, and she makes you feel better."

Storms.  It felt like Syl and his emotions were double-teaming him.  One smiled with encouragement, while the other whispered terrible things.  That he'd always be alone.  That Tarah had been right to leave him.

Kaladin doesn't directly admit anything to himself, but he goes to see Shallan right after this.  Though he doesn't think it or say it out loud, by going to talk to Shallan he is admitting that Syl is right and he needs more than just his brothers in arms.  He then says he feels good and warm inside while being around her, different from other women he's been with in the past.  All this is high quality romance plot.

In a normal romance (or real life) this would mean that he has feelings for her, different and more profound than he's had for any other woman.  That said, rereading some of these sections makes me feel like there's more of a chance than I thought that you are right about Sanderson's intent for the Kaladin/Shallan arc.  If so, it just proves again how terrible his romance writing skills are.  The best romance arc he's ever written isn't actually a romance arc and he probably never thought of it that way, which is probably why he was able to write it well.  But it makes the reader feel cheated.  Taking it all at face value (to avoid shipping wars that come with alternate theories), we are supposed to believe that Kaladin never loved Shallan and it was all a trick of the mind from her Lightweaver magic which he realizes in the end and feels better.  This is a complete cop out.  A love triangle story requires a satisfying conclusion and the fans who hoped for the Kaladin/Shallan pairing should get their chance to feel sad along with Kaladin that it didn't work out.  Look at all the popular love triangle stories in Hollywood like Pearl Harbor, Love Actually, or pretty much any rom-com, look at a movie like Castaway, even anime (Macross F ftw) - the "losing" ship always goes out in some kind of satisfying way, never backing down from their feelings.  It's usually kind of an uplifting story - they overcome their own shyness or other failures to finally express their true feelings to the one they love and feel better by getting that true, final rejection.  It feels super unsatisfying for one ship to just sort of turn around and go back into drydock.  I know Sanderson has talked about how he would like to do a love triangle a different way.  Maybe this is it - if so, he did not improve on the formula based on the story so far.  

The original Dalinar/Gavilar/Navani love triangle would have been a decent story, but it was never really told.  And that's OK.  That was the "real" Dalinar/Navani romance and it felt super unsatisfying and awkward to jump in on that 20+ years in progress.  Particularly in WoK when we don't even really know these characters yet and they are having an awkward romance scene while talking about events of the past we don't yet know about or care about.  That's why I say it would have been best to make their romance super minimal - Adolin or someone else explains it in passing and gives us a few updates, then we see them together and it's good to go.

Anyway, just want to say I definitely respect your opinion on this and leave you the right to it.  Heck, in a lot of ways my views are the weird ones.  My tastes in romance are probably more "traditional" and I do enjoy romance in movies and tv, but I don't like straight up romance novels even if they are set in an SFF world.  For whatever reason, I love it as a secondary plot to traditional SFF.  I know a lot of people would rather there is no romance at all in SFF novels so I'm definitely the outlier there.  *shrug*  I just like it if when it was included it was up to par with other media.

[Vindo]

I feel I have read a completely different book when people bring up Kaladin/Shallan. Yes there was an attraction between them, but there was no real development of a romantic relationship past that. On the other hand there was lot's of development between Adolin and Shallan with phsyical affection having been shown. 

[Merlin]

I agree. Kaladin admits to Syl that he didn't feel affection for Shallan, just that she reminded him of Tien. Kaladin latches on to anyone who has a happy aura like Tien did, since Kaldin can't really produce that himself

Edited October 8, 2019 by WannabeWorldhopper

[Aon Tia]

I actually think that adolin and shallan are good, their romance makes sense and it is done well enough. I liked their first meeting and their later ones. At first he felt that she is refreshing and then she ropes him in on her plans and he shares his plans and difficulties regarding furling with her. I see that as a good base for a relationship. She obviously adores him for she defends adolin to kaladin and berates him for making fun of adolin and shows him that adolin is totally likeable and u are the human version of dark clouds

the moment kal and shallan fell into the chasm together, I was like no Sanderson don’t go there! Adolin and shallan have a good thing going and don’t mess it up and I am glad really glad he did not. 

Even worse would have been if it would have messed up kaladin and adolin ‘s budding friendship 

i think it was written well and there was no unnecessary anguish here which is how things play out many times in real life

[Winds Alight]

Personally I'd prefer for not much of a lovelife at all ... not everyone needs romance in their lives and I'm not a fan of lovestories to begin with, so as far as I'm concerned Kaladin should remain single.

[Config2]

I think that Shallan and Kaladin is a definitely a pipe dream. Sanderson loves to drop in some red herrings here and there, and the romantic tension between them has always been one of those for me. They are attracted as most young attractive people with similar problems are, but aren't really that compatible. 

Shallan never mentions anything about Kaladin that isn't a surface trait (like the brooding glares or quippiness). 

Kaladin very much isn't interested in "distractions" as Syl puts it. He is a serious guy who wants a serious relationship. He probably could have grown to love Shallan, but more is just happy around her.

Others in this thread have said that the resolution to thsee two was unsatisfactory, but it was more of a red herring closeout rather than a real relationship end.

I'm not going to comment on the whole "Sanderson is bad at romance" conversation other than to say I think he is OK at the very least. It's not his focus, but he does OK with what he puts in.

Personally I think Laral has been set up and after reading the new interlude with Lirin, it seems she is going to stick in the story. I could see them getting together. Roshone doesn't seem to be around by that point in book 4 as it is. She is the only one besides Syl (who I ship) who has had enough screen time to get something going in the front five

[Use the Falchion]

I'm on the Jasnadin ship, but I'd happy accept Tarah, Rysn, or Syl. Laral would be acceptable, but less so at the moment. 

For Skyward it was more of a crush that might lead into more (Sanderson mentioned that he originally tried to make it a romance and it just didn't work). And I think the slow-burn approach is perfect, especially for young adults and teens. It actually starts with Bim, where Spensa realizes that people can have a romantic interest with her. Then respect for Jerkface, and soon romantic feelings. Also calling Book 1 Starsight really freaked me out for while; I thought y'all had read it early or something!

[Impact]

I'm gonna go back to a much earlier (thread-wise) idea and say Kaladin and Lynn is a good one.  She is respectful but not necessarily in awe of him, a little stubborn, like him, and badass.  I like it.

[Aon Tia]

8 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

 Also calling Book 1 Starsight really freaked me out for while; I thought y'all had read it early or something!

I so agree. I was like what!!? These people have read it already? I checked the released date again

[Config2]

55 minutes ago, Impact said:

I'm gonna go back to a much earlier (thread-wise) idea and say Kaladin and Lynn is a good one.  She is respectful but not necessarily in awe of him, a little stubborn, like him, and badass.  I like it.

I mean, I like Lynn and I like Kaladin, but I think her and Zigsal (sorry about spelling, I'm an audible guy) are better. They have a little more in common as both literate and outsiders.

Also they are both closer in degree of focus in the books. Maybe if she got more screen time I'd be more natural.

[Impact]

6 minutes ago, Config2 said:

I mean, I like Lynn and I like Kaladin, but I think her and Zigsal (sorry about spelling, I'm an audible guy) are better. They have a little more in common as both literate and outsiders.

Also they are both closer in degree of focus in the books. Maybe if she got more screen time I'd be more natural.

I could see her and Sigzil (here ya go) making a pair.  It's not a bad theory.

[Aon Tia]

Lyn and skar? 

[King Aragorn of Gondor]

Wait a second, what ever happend to Azure? She could be the ONE.  Kaladin NEEDS to find someone, poor guy couldn't hold on to Shallan for 10 minutes.

[Chiberty]

Yikes. I see a whole lot of discussion about how a plot point was "resolved." Luckily, it wasn't resolved. There was some sort of end-of-book resolution to it because Oathbringer was getting too long, but it's important to remember that we've got 2 more 1000+ page books for Kaladin to deal with how that resolution played out. (Hopefully most of that resolution will be in the first portion of SA4, but who knows.)

[Aon Tia]

Azure hmm I don’t know. Vasher is no longer an option?

[Merlin]

14 hours ago, Config2 said:

I mean, I like Lynn and I like Kaladin, but I think her and Zigsal (sorry about spelling, I'm an audible guy) are better. They have a little more in common as both literate and outsiders.

Also they are both closer in degree of focus in the books. Maybe if she got more screen time I'd be more natural.

I think Lynn will definitely end up with a member of Bridge Four, most likely Sigzil. That would be an interesting addition to the whole "Where the heck are we gonna put everyone's families?" question that Sigzil brought up, though I think it would be a minor plotline. 

[Config2]

Has there been any WoB about spren/radiant relations? If the human lived in Shadesmar it's probably physically possible to be intimate.

The only weird part would be that a spren dating their bonded partner would be a little like dating yourself. 

Honestly, I'm not sure how Kaladin can date someone without Syl ending up jealous.

[Winds Alight]

No human/spren pairings pls.

[Config2]

2 hours ago, Winds Alight said:

No human/spren pairings pls.

Any particular reason? 

There have been weirder romances in fantasy/sci-fi than beings that are basically humans in Shadesmar, just more inflexible and a little different.

[Aon Tia]

47 minutes ago, Config2 said:

Any particular reason? 

There have been weirder romances in fantasy/sci-fi than beings that are basically humans in Shadesmar, just more inflexible and a little different.

I don’t know it’s just that some relationships are much more sacred than love and it feels ike nahel bond is certainly that

[Winds Alight]

12 hours ago, Config2 said:

Any particular reason? 

There have been weirder romances in fantasy/sci-fi than beings that are basically humans in Shadesmar, just more inflexible and a little different.

I'm not a big fan of many of those either and I honestly have a huge problem whenever every deep bond two beings have said bond is sexualized because people cannot fathom that not everyone's ultimate goal is a romantic or sexual relationship.

Some relationships are deep and meaningful without any hint of romance or sexuality and the human-spren bond certainly counts as such imo.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Winds Alight

[Config2]

@Winds Alight and @The Traveler I actually think that sex is very important part of any relationship (excluding a minority for the asexual, who do exist). It demonstrates trust and should demonstrate some amount of compatibility. 

That being said not every interaction needs to be ultimately romantic in nature, I just happen to think that Syl and Kaladin have some amount of that romantic chemistry. I don't feel that Windle/Lift, Pattern/Shallan, Ivory/Jasnah, Glys/Renarin, Maya/Adolin (ish, they arent a real bond so are only kinda in this category) have that same chemistry, beyond what is mandated by their ideals.

Maybe it's just the extra screen time between them. I wouldn't be upset if it didn't happen, but I think true acceptance of a life partner for Kaladin by Syl would be difficult.

[Aon Tia]

She seems determined to find someone for him.

i know it is a popular theory, in fact, if it happen, i would not mind it that much also.

But it is just that some people suggest that she will be jealous of any potential girlfriends of his, but i do not agree with that. I have never felt any kind of jealousy or possessiveness from her side towards kal.

The only time she has shown possesiveness is when he attracts gloryspren but i think that is because 

gloryspren are akin to bondsmiths in the same way that windspren are akin to windrunners.

So, she gets possessive that go away, he is a windrunner and is  not going to become a bondsmith. we know that a person can attract the interest of more than one order and i think it is more likely to happen when the two orders share a surge.