Kaladin's Love Life

[Merlin]

Me and my friend have been debating profusely about whether or not Kaladin is gonna get a girlfriend. She desperately wants him to find "that special one" but I personally think he's gonna be alone except for Syl. I mean, what available women are there in Stormlight? Jasnah, Rysn, Venli, and Lynn? Jasnah... ha ha. I think Rysn died, and Lynn is going to end up with Lopen or something. (Actually, that would be extremely entertaining.) Kaladin's gonna hate Venli, and Lift...? Yeesh.

[Karger]

47 minutes ago, WannabeWorldhopper said:

I think Rysn died

She is actually alive and going to get her own novella soon.

47 minutes ago, WannabeWorldhopper said:

Jasnah... ha ha

I agree but some people ship them.  Some of the longest SA threads go on about them forever.

48 minutes ago, WannabeWorldhopper said:

Lynn is going to end up with Lopen

Maybe

48 minutes ago, WannabeWorldhopper said:

Kaladin's gonna hate Venli

Maybe.

48 minutes ago, WannabeWorldhopper said:

and Lift...? Yeesh.

Agreed.  Lift is wonderful but she has only been ten for three years.

[GeoMantrix]

I lean toward Jasnah/Kaladin.  We've yet to see a conversation between them from either of their point of view, I think?  They can bond over how gross Amaram was.  

Another option was the horse trainer.  

Maybe Adolin dies later and Shallan becomes single again.  Though Renaren's powers makes that unlikely.  Though I don't like the idea of it being Shallan's role to cheer up Kaladin.  But that's my own issues.  

Edited October 4, 2019 by GeoMantrix

[Kalaksbreath]

3 hours ago, Karger said:

She is actually alive and going to get her own novella soon.

is she going to discover Akinah?

Edited October 4, 2019 by Kalaksbreath

[Solant]

I'm still convinced Tarah is going to show back up, sooner than later. 

From an older thread. 

 

 

[Eluvianii]

I still vote for horse lady or Laral.

Something could happen with Tarah I guess.

I can't see any kind of compatibility whatsoever between him and Jasnah, nothing that could turn romantic anyway.

Lyn is too Bridge Four if you get what I mean. Some like Rock, Teft or Lopen, etc, are with Kaladin a lot but the rest live pretty much their own lives.

Venli? I don't really see where an insterest could spark. Then again, we don't know a lot about her. 

Lift? Yeah right.

And Rysn...? Alright, I'm holding back there until they meet.

[Aon Tia]

Tarah has been mentioned enough number of times and it is an unresolved love story 

I think she is going to come back

 

[Merlin]

I don't think Tarah's going to come back. It's way too improbable. I still think he'll remain single, since it seems too late in the series to introduce a new character, especially one as important as I'm sure Kaladin's girlfriend would be.

[Karger]

On 10/4/2019 at 3:15 PM, Kalaksbreath said:

is she going to discover Akinah?

Possibly

[Aon Tia]

Is she ever going to become a knights radiant? 

[Toaster Retribution]

The horse girls name is Jenet. Hope Brandon brings her back. 

I am not much for shipping, but my two cents is that Kaladin and Jasnah would annoy me, but Kaladin and Rysn sounds fun. 

[Steel Inquisitive]

22 hours ago, WannabeWorldhopper said:

I don't think Tarah's going to come back. It's way too improbable. I still think he'll remain single, since it seems too late in the series to introduce a new character, especially one as important as I'm sure Kaladin's girlfriend would be.

Which..... Brings us back to Jasnah or Venli

[galendo]

There doesn't really seem to be a valid, well-supported love interest that will be happening in the next two books.  Not that it's impossible, but I'm kind of hoping that it doesn't happen.  Brandon is pretty bad at writing romances, so two books in five probably isn't enough time to do it well, and moreover Kaladin doesn't particularly need a love interest to be an effective character.  I can't think of a single character (other than Syl) who I think could be developed satisfactorily as a romance option by the end of book five.

After the time-skip will be a different story.  While presently the Oaths provide plenty of character development, that won't really be the case in the back five, so there will be more need for interpersonal character development -- and romance is the primary interpersonal character development for good reasons.  Therefore I'd be somewhat surprised if we didn't see some Kaladin romance in the back five.  Lift seems like a promising candidate, but I would note that after a ten-year time-skip and with five full books to build and introduce new characters, pretty much anything at that point is fair game.

[TheGirlWhoLookedUp]

Okay, there’s a lot of good arguments there but I’m thinking, what if Kaladin was aromantic. They may or may not have a name for it on Roshar, but what if Kaladin realizes that he doesn’t want to be in a relationship. In the past he had Tara but wasn’t committed to her. At the end of Oathbringer he accepts Shallan marrying Adolin saying he never really was in love with her.

Instead of falling in love with someone, he learns to love himself.

[Tglassy]

I haven’t read the Kaladin/Jasnah thread, but I’ve always thought they’d be perfect for each other. He’s strong willed (read pig headed) enough to keep her from rolling over him, which is what she would need in a partner, and he’s very intelligent, as per his skill in healing, and he commands loyalty in his men, like her father. 

 

And while she seems heartless, I think she is the type that closes herself off because she doesn’t want to get hurt, so she hides behind her logic and hardness. But once she opens herself up to a relationship, once she lets herself love someone and learns to trust them, she could be very good for Kaladin. She doesn’t give complements or respect flippantly, so if she comes to respect Kaladin, then it will improve his own self image, as he will be able to trust her judgement of him more than his own. 

 

Plus us they’re both very witty at insulting each other, so I can imagine how their banter would play out over a longer time period. Either they’ll fall in love or they’ll hate each other. I don’t see a middle ground. 

[Aon Tia]

I would not say that he writes romance badly, I loved Siri and susebron, just that romance is not the main focus. But I think two books as big as Brandon writes them, are big enough to introduce a love interest and make it work. 

Honestly I am sitting on the fence where jasnah and kaladin are concerned... the main reason I think we ship them is that they are super awesome people and they are both single. 

It is also funny that they both seem aromantic @TheGirlWhoLookedUp Shallan has already wondered that about jasnah after all 

one other thing I find in their favour is that Unlike shallan, I think jasnah does not really care about nobility birthright and light eyes stuff.. 

Jasnah never cared about amaram whereas shallan in her place probably would have skipped all over the town at the prospect  

It is also true that technically KRs now come above royalty in the social hierarchy but still shallan had compared him to a peasant in OB. 

[agrabes]

14 hours ago, The traveller said:

I would not say that he writes romance badly, I loved Siri and susebron, just that romance is not the main focus. But I think two books as big as Brandon writes them, are big enough to introduce a love interest and make it work. 

Honestly I am sitting on the fence where jasnah and kaladin are concerned... the main reason I think we ship them is that they are super awesome people and they are both single. 

It is also funny that they both seem aromantic @TheGirlWhoLookedUp Shallan has already wondered that about jasnah after all 

one other thing I find in their favour is that Unlike shallan, I think jasnah does not really care about nobility birthright and light eyes stuff.. 

Jasnah never cared about amaram whereas shallan in her place probably would have skipped all over the town at the prospect  

It is also true that technically KRs now come above royalty in the social hierarchy but still shallan had compared him to a peasant in OB. 

He's hit or miss on romance, mostly miss.  Though as I write this out, I'm thinking maybe he's just been spectacularly bad a few times which has made it seem worse.  In my view:

Good Romance:

Wax/Steris, Kaladin/Shallan WoR Arc (Only referencing in terms of quality, not shipping interest)  In these two romantic plots he got the feelings across of both parties very well, made it feel natural, and it felt natural for the characters to interact the way they did.  The Wax/Steris relationship was good because you could really see the two characters come to understand each other and love each other.  

OK Romance:

Vin/Elend, Starsight, Reckoners: I remember Vin/Elend one as seeming OK but not heavily developed which seemed appropriate for the story.  Starsight's romance seems like it could be another good one, but in Book One it wasn't developed much so I'll leave it at just OK.  Reckoners was ok trending toward bad.

Bad Romance:

Dalinar/Navani, All OB Romance Arcs except Kaladin's early feelings.  Dalinar/Navani feels just overly forced and like there are no real feelings there.  Every Dalinar/Navani romance scene has felt totally wooden, especially the ones in WoK.  In OB, there was some context added which took it from absolute garbage to just pretty bad.  The other OB romance arcs also felt forced, especially on the part of Kaladin and Shallan.  Adolin was pretty consistent throughout, but Kaladin and Shallan both came to huge decisions that were not really supported by anything.

Don't Remember Well Enough to Comment: Elantris, Warbreaker, Rithmatist.  Never read: Alcatraz.

 

Overall I think Sanderson's biggest issue with romance is that he sometimes tries to go into a middle ground that just can't exist in romance.  He is an author who really wants to push plot along and we all love him for that in the non-romance aspects.  That approach can work with romance and be acceptable, like just keep it to a bare minimum "A likes B, B likes A, we don't get much detail and then they get together."  There are plenty of books that get along fine like that.  The other option is that you have to really develop it.  The character's romantic feelings have to significantly impact their decisions and they have to build up over time.  They have to make attempts and sometimes succeed and sometimes fail.  This has to happen on screen.  The problem is that sometimes he tries to go for a middle ground where you see some of it but not all of it.  When that happens, either one of two things happens: 1) The romance feels fake and it seems like people are getting together just because of the plot (Dalinar/Navani) or 2) The characters jump to conclusions or are written to explicitly have feelings that don't make sense to us based on what we've seen on screen (K/A/S love triangle resolution).

 

That said, if Kaladin does get together with someone in the front 5, I'd like to see it be Laral or Tarrah.  Both of them are people he's had a hint of romance with, but screwed it up due to his youth and immaturity/romantic inexperience.  I'd like to see him get a second chance now that he's grown up a bit and admitted to Syl that he can't just be happy with only his brothers in arms for companionship.  To me, Laral seems the most interesting because she's become a strong woman in her own right in a way that Kaladin can't comprehend.  I predict Roshone will die and Kaladin and Laral will end up working together professionally at first to evacuate the people to Urithiru and then develop a renewed bond.

[Pathfinder]

22 hours ago, Tglassy said:

And while she seems heartless, I think she is the type that closes herself off because she doesn’t want to get hurt, so she hides behind her logic and hardness. But once she opens herself up to a relationship, once she lets herself love someone and learns to trust them, she could be very good for Kaladin. She doesn’t give complements or respect flippantly, so if she comes to respect Kaladin, then it will improve his own self image, as he will be able to trust her judgement of him more than his own. 

Personally I feel although Jasnah is guarded, she does love, and trust. She loves and trusts in her family. I do not feel she needs a relationship with Kaladin for that to happen. I wrote a overly long thread on Jasnah the person that I believe supports this and included the link below if you are curious

 

 

[Karger]

On 10/6/2019 at 0:33 AM, The traveller said:

Is she ever going to become a knights radiant? 

Maybe.  I vote Truthwatcher.  However I am doubting it so far.  I do like her Larkin pet though.

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

Starsight

There was Romance in Starsight?

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

Dalinar/Navani

Whaaaat?  Makes Outraged Noises!  That was one of the best romances ever!  Its funny, its cute, they both get each other, they both respect each other, they both care about each other and their reasoning makes sense.  Also old people having a romance without it coming off as odd or corny.  GO Davani! 

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

All OB Romance Arcs except Kaladin's early feelings

I think Shallan and Adolin actually did a pretty good job of communicating with each other in that subtle way that most writers don't bother with.  Adolin just taking the time out to give Shallan a message and talk about their feelings in a nice but not edgy or charged moment is something I can actually see two partners do in real life.

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

Kaladin and Shallan both came to huge decisions that were not really supported by anything.

Exactly.  They don't actually know each other that well.  I get no indications that they have interacted much off scene the way I do with Adolin.  One somewhat romantically charged moment does not make a relationship.

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

That said, if Kaladin does get together with someone in the front 5, I'd like to see it be Laral or Tarrah.  Both of them are people he's had a hint of romance with, but screwed it up due to his youth and immaturity/romantic inexperience. 

This mostly agree with.

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

I'd like to see him get a second chance now that he's grown up a bit and admitted to Syl that he can't just be happy with only his brothers in arms for companionship

When did he admit this?

[agrabes]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Maybe.  I vote Truthwatcher.  However I am doubting it so far.  I do like her Larkin pet though.

There was Romance in Starsight?

Whaaaat?  Makes Outraged Noises!  That was one of the best romances ever!  Its funny, its cute, they both get each other, they both respect each other, they both care about each other and their reasoning makes sense.  Also old people having a romance without it coming off as odd or corny.  GO Davani! 

I think Shallan and Adolin actually did a pretty good job of communicating with each other in that subtle way that most writers don't bother with.  Adolin just taking the time out to give Shallan a message and talk about their feelings in a nice but not edgy or charged moment is something I can actually see two partners do in real life.

Exactly.  They don't actually know each other that well.  I get no indications that they have interacted much off scene the way I do with Adolin.  One somewhat romantically charged moment does not make a relationship.

This mostly agree with.

When did he admit this?

The Starsight romance was a sort of read between the lines thing.  You can tell that Spensa and Jerkface are interested in each other, but she isn't willing to admit it to herself yet.  There's kind of a tsundere type thing going on there.  It's being set up well for the eventual Book 2 or 3 romance, imo.  I was pretty happy with what was there.

It's interesting, that you like the Dalinar/Navani romance.  I'm not opposed to the pairing, but I felt it was terribly written as a romance.  We basically see them walk on screen and she's like "I clearly love you a lot Dalinar, but I have no reasons or emotional exposition showing you that I do, I just do."  And Dalinar responds, "I love you too Navani, but I have no emotions or reasoning to back it up either.  I've just said that I feel that way about you and therefore I do."  Navani responds, "We are a perfect match!"  Later in the Dalinar flashbacks you get a tiny bit more substance to the relationship and context to why they are the way they are with each other, but it's just not enough.  Like I said in my last post, Sanderson went for the middle ground of romance that made it terrible.  If he had just kept it minimal and that they had loved each other but couldn't be together and kept it almost all off screen, we could have just accepted it as that and it could have worked.  Like if we saw them get together and got Adolin's feelings about it.  That would have worked.  Instead, we got extremely awkward dialogue that was totally unearned between them.

In the S/A/K triangle I think Adolin is written the best in terms of being consistent and making decisions that line up with his character.  The issue with Shallan is that early in OB she suddenly just starts saying she has these passions for Kaladin in an awkwardly written way that doesn't line up with her character or personality up to that point.  She never has any romantic thoughts toward Kaladin in WoR, but suddenly she has these passions?  Everything she does romantically from that point is totally erratic, though to be fair that is probably an intentional choice given Shallan's other issues at the time.  Her choice later on to "choose" Adolin also feels wrong.  It makes sense - she's betrothed to him and wants to be married to him for political reasons and also believes he genuinely cares for her and understands her, but it still feels wrong because there's no real build up to it.  One minute it's her being all messed up with the multiple personalities, the next she decides she needs to be with Adolin.  For it to feel right, we needed it to go one way or the other.  Accepting a friendly but non-romantic political marriage that might later become a more full romance would have been totally fine.  The other option was for her to actually think about Adolin in a romantic way at any time prior to the "decision" scene.  She seems to think of spending time with him as something more like a pleasant obligation than anything else up until that point.  It was presented as a romantic decision - she had finally found the man she truly loved - but the scenes of her feeling any kind of romantic love other than just physical attraction didn't exist.

The issue with Kaladin is that the resolution of the triangle is way too abrupt and unnatural and inconsistent with how a normal person would react and how Kaladin himself has been shown to act.  It's a Deus ex Machina from Sanderson because he wants to firmly close out the triangle to have Kaladin suddenly think that he has absolutely no feelings toward Shallan and never did.  It would be one thing if he said that to someone else, then it could be putting a brave face on while still being sad about it.  He internally thinks to himself that what he thought were romantic feelings were something else all along.  That just feels wrong.  A better written and still firmly closed arc would have shown Kaladin accepting that Shallan and Adolin should be together but still being a little sad about it in a non-angsty way.  Writing it the way he did makes it feel like all Kaladin's earlier romantic feelings, imo the best romantic arc Sanderson has ever written, were a lie or misunderstanding.

I can't remember chapter and page, but there is a scene in OB where Kaladin and Syl talk about his romantic prospects and she forces him to admit that he likes Shallan and that he can't just sit idly by and do nothing about it.  He tries to say it's better for him to dedicate himself to his fellow soldiers.  She makes him admit that he needs more than his brothers in arms.  That is when he decides he will actively pursue a relationship with Shallan.

Edited October 7, 2019 by agrabes

[Vindo]

My vote is Kaladin finds someone in the back five, even make is a non issue. Be like hey, its been x amount of years and Kaladin found someone got married and had a kid. To be honest I would really love to see how kaladin would handle having a kid. Given how over protective he is, especially of those close to him it could lead to some funny moments. Also adding Syl in as an adoring Aunt would be some comedic gold. 

[Karger]

2 minutes ago, agrabes said:

You can tell that Spensa and Jerkface are interested in each other, but she isn't willing to admit it to herself yet

Raises eyebrows.  No.  The two of them do not have that kind of relationship.  It would also be inappropriate(he is her commanding officer technically).

4 minutes ago, agrabes said:

There's kind of a tsundere type thing going on there.  It's being set up well for the eventual Book 2 or 3 romance, imo.  I was pretty happy with what was there.

Sometimes I feel like one of a small minority of people who just would like "Young people of the opposite gender can have intimate relationships that are not romantic!"  This is true both in real life and if should be more true in literature.

6 minutes ago, agrabes said:

It's interesting, that you like the Dalinar/Navani romance.  I'm not opposed to the pairing, but I felt it was terribly written as a romance.  We basically see them walk on screen and she's like "I clearly love you a lot Dalinar, but I have no reasons or emotional exposition showing you that I do, I just do

Dalinar and Navani both mention that he, his brother, and her were all members of an epic Rosharan love triangle but he backed up so she ended up with Gavilar despite her feelings.

8 minutes ago, agrabes said:

.  Like I said in my last post, Sanderson went for the middle ground of romance that made it terrible

Actually this is one element of Sandromance that I actually like.  Generally romance is neither the only nor the least important thing on anyone's mind at any given time.  Sure Dalinar love's Navani but he also has the weight of the world on his shoulders.  

11 minutes ago, agrabes said:

The issue with Shallan is that early in OB she suddenly just starts saying she has these passions for Kaladin in an awkwardly written way that doesn't line up with her character or personality up to that point

I read that as her having a bit of a crush that she would not admit(thus making the crush worse) and giving it to Veil.  This is actually a good example of Shallan being Shallan.

12 minutes ago, agrabes said:

For it to feel right, we needed her to actually think about Adolin in a romantic way at any time prior to their marriage.  She seems to think of spending time with him as more of an obligation than anything else up until that point.

They have spent a considerable amount of time together both on and off screen and at no point did I get the sense that she is spending time with him out of a sense of obligation.

16 minutes ago, agrabes said:

He internally thinks to himself that what he thought were romantic feelings were something else all along. 

As I have said from the beginning.  I never got the sense that Kaladin had feelings for her at all he just liked the idea of her.  Someone who had suffered more then him but at the same time had not developed depression.  Also he liked how she made him feel because it is A a Lightweaver power and B reminded him of Tien.

18 minutes ago, agrabes said:

shown Kaladin accepting that Shallan and Adolin should be together but still being a little sad about it in a non-angsty way

First of all how is could that ever be not angsty.  Second of all this implies that you belive they actually had feelings for each other in the first place(something I don't realy except).

20 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I can't remember chapter and page, but there is a scene in OB where Kaladin and Syl talk about his romantic prospects and she forces him to admit that he likes Shallan and that he can't just sit idly by and do nothing about it.

I think you are remembering several different scenes. 

1.  Syl hounding Kaladin about relationships that he is not in and (at least once) women he is not actively "seeing."  This happens on his journey to hearthstone and afterward.

2. Syl telling Kaladin that she thinks he should be seeing that nice Lightweaver girl.  Also journey to hearthstone and afterward.

3. Syl telling Kaladin that she likes Shallan.  Journey to Kohlinar.

4.  Syl telling Kaladin to talk to Shallan because he has depression and PTSD and she makes it better.  This could be Syl unconsciously recognizing Shallan's Lightweaver powers.

[agrabes]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

Raises eyebrows.  No.  The two of them do not have that kind of relationship.  It would also be inappropriate(he is her commanding officer technically).

Sometimes I feel like one of a small minority of people who just would like "Young people of the opposite gender can have intimate relationships that are not romantic!"  This is true both in real life and if should be more true in literature.

Dalinar and Navani both mention that he, his brother, and her were all members of an epic Rosharan love triangle but he backed up so she ended up with Gavilar despite her feelings.

Actually this is one element of Sandromance that I actually like.  Generally romance is neither the only nor the least important thing on anyone's mind at any given time.  Sure Dalinar love's Navani but he also has the weight of the world on his shoulders.  

I read that as her having a bit of a crush that she would not admit(thus making the crush worse) and giving it to Veil.  This is actually a good example of Shallan being Shallan.

They have spent a considerable amount of time together both on and off screen and at no point did I get the sense that she is spending time with him out of a sense of obligation.

As I have said from the beginning.  I never got the sense that Kaladin had feelings for her at all he just liked the idea of her.  Someone who had suffered more then him but at the same time had not developed depression.  Also he liked how she made him feel because it is A a Lightweaver power and B reminded him of Tien.

First of all how is could that ever be not angsty.  Second of all this implies that you belive they actually had feelings for each other in the first place(something I don't realy except).

I think you are remembering several different scenes. 

1.  Syl hounding Kaladin about relationships that he is not in and (at least once) women he is not actively "seeing."  This happens on his journey to hearthstone and afterward.

2. Syl telling Kaladin that she thinks he should be seeing that nice Lightweaver girl.  Also journey to hearthstone and afterward.

3. Syl telling Kaladin that she likes Shallan.  Journey to Kohlinar.

4.  Syl telling Kaladin to talk to Shallan because he has depression and PTSD and she makes it better.  This could be Syl unconsciously recognizing Shallan's Lightweaver powers.

I'm not going to argue with all this because I think a lot of comes down to the fact that your personality and mine are very different if I can get any sense of it through your posts on this board.  For example Spensa/Jerkface - Sure commander/subordinate makes things difficult, but it's very common in fiction and real life for romantic relationships to develop in that situation.  It makes for a more interesting romance plot too.  Your opinion seems to be "that's against the rules so it should never happen!"  That's a totally valid opinion to have, but kind of a sad one to have too.  I don't disagree that it's totally fine for them -not- to have a romantic relationship and would not be upset or disappointed at all if they don't.  But, the seeds are there if that's the way it goes.  What I'm saying is that Sanderson has written a really good foundation for a romance to develop, even if it ultimately doesn't.

The thought that romance isn't the most important thing on anyone's mind at any given time is a complete personality thing.  If you were to pick any random moment out of a person's 80+ years of life, sure the odds aren't great that it would be devoted to romance.  But, if you were talking about the key days and months of a lasting relationship being formed then you can bet that a huge percent of that person's mental focus is going to be dedicated to it.  At least, for me personally it would be.  Based on the romance shown in any popular fiction, I think I'm not alone in that sentiment.

In terms of Adolin/Shallan - they absolutely do start spending time together out of obligation.  They were socially obligated to spend time together as betrothed.  They didn't know each other at all and only started spending time together because they wanted to know the person they were going to marry and hoped to develop a real relationship.    It was never an unpleasant obligation, but it was still an obligation.  And the feel of their scenes together never changed - it was always sort of "hey, we are hanging out together and this is kinda fun" but never "I'm in love with you and you being with you makes my life better."  That was a sudden declaration, which came from Shallan with little build up in terms of her actual expressed emotions on the page.  Adolin never expressed any romantic emotions toward Shallan on screen.  I personally believe this was due to Sanderson's poor romance writing ability and it was his intent to show a gradually building love between them.  

In terms of Kaladin/Shallan - I agree that Shallan never had feelings for Kaladin beyond a slight crush.  That's why I felt the way she started acting toward him/thinking about him was really jarring, but I can accept that at least some of it was due to her split personality issues.  I disagree that Kaladin didn't have feelings for her.  His feelings for Shallan are probably the most convincing romantic writing that Sanderson has ever done.  The whole point is that Kaladin is too stubborn and duty bound to admit it to himself.  He doesn't think he is allowed to have feelings for 1) another man's fiance, 2) someone he views as too far above his station for it to ever work, and 3) later on a good friend's fiance in particular.  But he eventually realizes with help from Syl that he does have feelings for her, makes the attempt despite the fact that he feels it's wrong to do so (an even stronger sign that he has deep feelings for her), and fails.  He shouldn't just blow this off.  He needs to let himself be sad about it for a while.  The difference between being sad and being angsty is not too hard.  Sad = thinks about her longingly or commiserates his general failures in romance a few more times on screen and then some event makes him realize he needs to move on.  Angsty = thinks about how life is just sooo unfair that he couldn't get the girl, pouts for the rest of the series.  That's not how it was written though - he just magically cut off all feelings and has either gone into complete denial or is just being written in Deus ex Machina to firmly close off the triangle plot from future books.

You are right that there are several Syl/Kaladin scenes about romance, but I don't agree with your interpretation on 3&4.  You are saying 3) is "Bossy Syl forces Kaladin to say he likes Shallan when he really doesn't" but I definitely read it is "Wise Syl forces Kaladin to confront his true feelings and stop denying himself".  You are saying 4) is "Syl tells Kaladin to use Shallan as his therapist" but I read it as "Syl points out that Kaladin feels happier when he is around Shallan to provide proof to Kaladin that he has feelings for her."  In the end, your interpretation might be right, but if it is I'll be disappointed.  There is definitely a quote in one of those scenes directly talking about his brothers in arms, I'll see if I can find it later on.

What it seems to come down to is this - I believe the best romance is shown, not told.  To make a convincing romance, you have to show it in the little things.  How the two characters interact with each other, what they do and think about their love interest when they are not around, what they clearly feel but don't say or even directly think about each other, etc.  That is what makes it interesting and fun to read.  It's what makes the character's emotions feel real and draws you in to where you feel those emotions yourself.

The style you seem to like is if the exact feelings each person is having are directly written on the page.  "Person A loved Person B."  If that's what you like, then that's what you like.  That's Dalinar and Navani's romance - it was written that they love each other and so they did.  If you like that style, then that's fine.  I just don't.

[Lccaseiro58]

I agree with @agrabes, particularly in the show vs tell debate. There's a scene in OB when Shallan embarrasses herself to attract shamespren and the only person who notices is Kaladin. My point is, if Shallan and Adolin spend so much time together he should be picking this hints.

The conclusion to the triangle still fells very odd to me for various reasons. The main one being the Helaran subplot not being resolved.

To the OP question, i fell Tarah is going to be important in Kaladin moving forward.

Edited October 7, 2019 by lccaseiro58

[Karger]

20 minutes ago, agrabes said:

It makes for a more interesting romance plot too.  Your opinion seems to be "that's against the rules so it should never happen!"

More of "Spensa is clearly in an inferior possession to him so it would be difficult for her to refuse that kind of relationship and that calls into question whether or not she is consenting freely."

23 minutes ago, agrabes said:

The thought that romance isn't the most important thing on anyone's mind at any given time is a complete personality thing.  If you were to pick any random moment out of a person's 80+ years of life, sure the odds aren't great that it would be devoted to romance.  But, if you were talking about the key days and months of a lasting relationship being formed then you can bet that a huge percent of that person's mental focus is going to be dedicated to it.  At least, for me personally it would be.  Based on the romance shown in any popular fiction, I think I'm not alone in that sentiment.

I mostly agree but I would like to point out that people are different.  I am also not alone my my sentiment.

23 minutes ago, agrabes said:

They were socially obligated to spend time together as betrothed.  They didn't know each other at all and only started spending time together because they wanted to know the person they were going to marry and hoped to develop a real relationship.

Shallan could have left the relationship there and made a few public appearances for appearances sake if she really wanted to.  She chose to spend time with him.

24 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Adolin never expressed any romantic emotions toward Shallan on screen.  I personally believe this was due to Sanderson's poor romance writing ability and it was his intent to show a gradually building love between them.  

Then how do you explain all of his caring for her well being, his interest in her studies and latter her Radiance, the amount of time they spend having fun together, or the fact that he constantly is looking out for her interests and helping her get to know his family?

27 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Bossy Syl forces Kaladin to say he likes Shallan when he really doesn't"

More.  Syl who is unframilure with human relationships does not really get how Kaladin feels about Shallan.  Considering he does not really know how he feels this makes sense.

28 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Syl tells Kaladin to use Shallan as his therapist" but I read it as "Syl points out that Kaladin feels happier when he is around Shallan to provide proof to Kaladin that he has feelings for her

A therapist is not necessarily a bad thing.  Also the fact that Kaladin is happier around Shallan does not mean he is romantically attracted to her.

30 minutes ago, agrabes said:

you have to show it in the little things.  How the two characters interact with each other, what they do and think about their love interest when they are not around, what they clearly feel but don't say or even directly think about each other, etc

Like Shallan and Adolin?

30 minutes ago, agrabes said:

That's Dalinar and Navani's romance - it was written that they love each other and so they did.  If you like that style, then that's fine.  I just don't.

Most of their Romance happened a long time ago.  Navani is introduced as Dalinar's old flame.  Of course we know they like each other from the get go.  Also from our conversation that seems like your kind of love story not mine.