Heralds Age??

[Nymeros]

43 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

It's a false parallel because the two conflicts don't really have anything in common other than the species involved. And that's not a relevant similarity because the differences between the species didn't play a significant role the reasons why the latter war went as badly as it did for the Parshendi. 

And more importantly, because subjugating a city and conquering an entire continent are completely different beasts on a logistical level. 8 years is a super long time to spend doing the former, and the most direct historical precedent I'm aware of for the latter happening at all took ~200 years.

Whats relevant is that both are large scale conflicts that involve some crazy magic being thrown into the mix....thats all. Again, the population size of either group is unknown as far as I'm aware.

 

When were we told that this war was on the scale of a continent or that humanity subjugated the entire Parsh population?

[Gilphon]

I mean, a war that directly leads to the creation of the Fused and the Desolations and the Oathpact cannot possibly be a small scale one. 

But, because I want to move past this particular disagreement and lay out some things I've been musing about: The wording of the Eila Stele does support the idea that things went bad within a human lifetime- the writer speaks emotionally about before the pity they felt as they took the humans in, and the anger at the subsequent betrayal, as if they were present of both events. And the writer claims that the humans had intended to betray them all along, which would be a rather strange idea if their arrival was no longer a living memory. 

However. The war Eila Stele describes is rather different from the one Stormfather describes. The Eila Stele talks about Odium-powered humans venturing forth, waging a scorched earth policy war against the Singers. Stormfather describes Odium-fueled singers refusing to die, reincarnating over and over, ensuring that their can never be peace. These, of course, aren't fundamentally incompatible- it makes sense to assume that the human were the initial aggressors, but the powerful and increasingly insane Fused are the ones who ensured the war never ended. 

But there's one more wrinkle here- the Eila Stele also mentions that the Gods commanded that the humans be given a place on Roshar. Implying that Honor and Cultivation believed them to be sincere. Could they really have been hiding their ambitions well enough to fool a pair of Shards- especially Shards that would've been made particularly on-guard by Odium's presence? Surely not; I think they must have been sincere.

And- if indeed the Heralds were born on Ashyn, I think I can do than better than merely saying a vague 'they' had truly peaceful intentions. Jezrien, or perhaps Jezrien's predecessor- had sincerely peaceful intentions. And of course he ultimately wanted peace badly enough to sacrifice himself to the Oathpact. Which gives us that the human royalty never wanted things to go bad- which, to me, implies that the original Voidbringers were some kind of rival or rebel faction. 

Perhaps Odium designed their aggression in such a way that it would inspire literally undying hatred from their victims. If you assume Odium-backed provocateurs from both sides then continued to fan the flames, making sure things continued to deteriorate... I could see that bad enough getting that Honor would feel compelled to step in relatively quickly, and therefore the Oathpact.

Yeah, personally, I'm seeing the pieces falling into place here. Anyone else on board with me here?

Edited October 7, 2019 by Gilphon

[Aon Tia]

also the saying that spren betrayed us, they were soup we were broth,

it also causes confusion, it suggests that humans became radiants first, but that directly contradict what stormfather suggests and what honor also told dalinar.

that first fused came, then heralds were made and then radiants happened when spren tried to imitate honorblades. 

So either, eila stelle is a lie or atleast someone among the singers is trying to blame the humans for a war that they started or

the spren did come to humans but in some other way. they were not given surges but may be they just showed up more around humans because humans are more expressive, they feel their emotions more strongly,

but even this can not happen in shinovar because i dont think spren go there much

but in humans other settlements

so when that happened, was it that it became difficult for singers to attract spren to change forms?  is that what caused them to get angry?

i dont think originally singers used to trap spren in gems and take the gems in highstorms... this was something the parshendi learned from humans.

 

[Jorr]

I think the words about the spren on the Eila Stele are about the spren being attracted to humans, not about the Nahel bond that has not been a thing before the Heralds made the Oathpact.

I like @Gilphon's line of thinking but I believe you are all forgetting that:

a. the people of Ashyn were a highly advanced civilization, at least in terms of working with investiture, they certainly could easily have had lifetimes spanning 200+ years.

b. the Heralds, or a part of them, or many more humans, carried those Dawnshards that were supposed to have destroyed Ashyn - surely it's easy to assume they also had effects on longevity and health.

In short, the events that led to the Oathpact DID simultanteously happen in a lifetime, AND in 200 years - humans were more long-lived than they are now, or at least the Heralds were. Whether that was unique to them, common across Ashynites, or a property of the Dawnshards, remains to be seen.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Jorr

[Aon Tia]

@Jorr that is exactly the point i was trying to make that something about their magic even before they became made them immortal or they had longer lives as you suggest

[Nymeros]

13 hours ago, Gilphon said:

I mean, a war that directly leads to the creation of the Fused and the Desolations and the Oathpact cannot possibly be a small scale one. 

Why not? The Parshendi conflict led to the birth of the Everstorm and the beginning of the True Desolation.

Quote

But, because I want to move past this particular disagreement and lay out some things I've been musing about: The wording of the Eila Stele does support the idea that things went bad within a human lifetime- .

Yes, yes it does.

Quote

Perhaps Odium designed their aggression in such a way that it would inspire literally undying hatred from their victims. If you assume Odium-backed provocateurs from both sides then continued to fan the flames, making sure things continued to deteriorate... I could see that bad enough getting that Honor would feel compelled to step in relatively quickly, and therefore the Oathpact.

It was less Honor stepping in and more the Heralds stepping up I think. I believe their intent was just to stop the feud and seal the fused with the cycle of destruction being totally unforseen.

12 hours ago, The traveller said:

also the saying that spren betrayed us, they were soup we were broth,

it also causes confusion, it suggests that humans became radiants first, but that directly contradict what stormfather suggests and what honor also told dalinar.

I think thats referring to humans ability to very easily attract spren.

[Aon Tia]

23 hours ago, The traveller said:

So either, eila stelle is a lie or atleast someone among the singers is trying to blame the humans for a war that they started or

the spren did come to humans but in some other way. they were not given surges but may be they just showed up more around humans because humans are more expressive, they feel their emotions more strongly,

but even this can not happen in shinovar because i dont think spren go there much

but in humans other settlements

so when that happened, was it that it became difficult for singers to attract spren to change forms?  is that what caused them to get angry?

i dont think originally singers used to trap spren in gems and take the gems in highstorms... this was something the parshendi learned from humans.

@Nymeros already argued on that point extensively

[Impact]

This might be a podcast theory but the way I see it is this:

 

Humans come to Roshar peacefully and with all intent to chill in Shinovar.  After a relatively short time (few years maybe) some or all fo the humans decide "Oh oh, I want some more, oh oh, what are we waiting for" (cue that song) and bust over the mountains.  Being humans, and from a land that was just destroyed they got the inspiration to wage a Sherman's March to the Sea Scorched Roshar Desolation on the Singers.  Singers felt betrayed by their gods who had asked them to take in the humans, and start looking to Odium.  The Fused are formed.  Desolation one is now in full swing. Humans are getting whomped because they think they kill the Fused, but the Fused are all "nuh uh, suckas" and come back with an unholy vengeance.  Thus, the Oathpact is formed, locking them on Braize.

 

Then the Desolation Cycle of the Heralds breaking begins.

 

Fin

 

[Aon Tia]

And how much time did it take according to you? 

[Impact]

4 minutes ago, The traveller said:

And how much time did it take according to you? 

Let's say 10-15 years.  2-3 for the humans to decide to get extra space, and 4-5 for Fused to happen, and the rest for the Oathpact to form and the Fused to be defeated

[RShara]

1 hour ago, Impact said:

Let's say 10-15 years.  2-3 for the humans to decide to get extra space, and 4-5 for Fused to happen, and the rest for the Oathpact to form and the Fused to be defeated

Not to mention, Odium was almost certainly also there, influencing people. It's not hard to convince a goodly section of a human population that they're the superior race, and that they're "owed" domination and land whenever they want it.

Plus the whole Cognitive Shadows look the way they think of themselves/they're expected to look thing.