mixed magics

[stormbourne]

so this is a topic about how one systems magics would work in another system

the one that i would like start this topic on is what would soulcasting do with different focuses, be that of metal, or the three C's

[Quantus]

Can you explain a bit more of what you mean by mixed magics in this context?  Are you talking about trying to mimic the effects of one using another, or fueling one magic with the Investiture of another shard/world? Something else entirely?

[Zapata]

1 hour ago, stormbourne said:

so this is a topic about how one systems magics would work in another system

the one that i would like start this topic on is what would soulcasting do with different focuses, be that of metal, or the three C's

Do you mean changing the gemstones to something else or changing the essences the gems create?

[stormbourne]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Can you explain a bit more of what you mean by mixed magics in this context?  Are you talking about trying to mimic the effects of one using another, or fueling one magic with the Investiture of another shard/world? Something else entirely?

in the example given i mean what the smeg would a soulcaster, radient or fabiral, be able to achieve if instead of a gemstone they had another planets focus be that scadrian metals, nalthis's three C's, or any of the multitude present on sel

as for the topic in general how would a given system of magic work if it was using another systems manifestation of investiture

[Pathfinder]

43 minutes ago, stormbourne said:

in the example given i mean what the smeg would a soulcaster, radient or fabiral, be able to achieve if instead of a gemstone they had another planets focus be that scadrian metals, nalthis's three C's, or any of the multitude present on sel

as for the topic in general how would a given system of magic work if it was using another systems manifestation of investiture

Well we do know it is possible to hack magic systems to be fueled by other magic systems. We just do not know how. The closest we have seen is compounding. Brandon calls it hacking himself. So theoretically, if a radiant found a way to fuel soulcasting with allomancy, then they could potentially get a never ending supply for soulcasting. As in, burn a common metal like steel to receive investiture directly from preservation (like how allomancy works normally). Convert this incoming investiture to fuel the soulcasting you intend to do. With the remaining investiture, soulcast more steel, that you can then burn, to soulcast more. 

[Quantus]

On a related note, I believe we have a WOB that a Radiant could charge gems by exposing them to any Shard's Perpendicularity (it came up in an old conversation about shardworlds going to war).  So in that sense a Radiant could theoretically fuel their surges from the Well or Pits directly (or whatever their Era2 form is). 

It is also theoretically possible (if entirely unsupported as far as I know) that a Radiant on Scadrial would be able to inhale the Mist directly since they are both gaseous forms of Investiture.  

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

On a related note, I believe we have a WOB that a Radiant could charge gems by exposing them to any Shard's Perpendicularity (it came up in an old conversation about shardworlds going to war).  So in that sense a Radiant could theoretically fuel their surges from the Well or Pits directly (or whatever their Era2 form is). 

It is also theoretically possible (if entirely unsupported as far as I know) that a Radiant on Scadrial would be able to inhale the Mist directly since they are both gaseous forms of Investiture.  

We do know a radiant soulcaster could fuel their soulcastings from a highstorm directly, so I see no reason why a radiant couldn't fuel their surgebindings directly fueled from a perpendicularity. 

[Quantus]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

We do know a radiant soulcaster could fuel their soulcastings from a highstorm directly, so I see no reason why a radiant couldn't fuel their surgebindings directly fueled from a perpendicularity. 

Agreed.  What are your thoughts on a Radiant being able to use the Mists directly?  It's been a long time since I read Mistborn so I dont recall the happenstance but I know Vin at least was able to fuel her allomancy directly but I dont recall if it took conscious intervention by Preservation to make it work.  

[stormbourne]

39 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Agreed.  What are your thoughts on a Radiant being able to use the Mists directly?  It's been a long time since I read Mistborn so I dont recall the happenstance but I know Vin at least was able to fuel her allomancy directly but I dont recall if it took conscious intervention by Preservation to make it work.  

the mists are gaseous manifestation of investiture the special case with vin was that she was moulded by preservation to become the next holder of that shard and so when she drew on the mists it was like regular allomancy as the power didn't diminish as she used it 

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Agreed.  What are your thoughts on a Radiant being able to use the Mists directly?  It's been a long time since I read Mistborn so I dont recall the happenstance but I know Vin at least was able to fuel her allomancy directly but I dont recall if it took conscious intervention by Preservation to make it work.  

 

19 minutes ago, stormbourne said:

the mists are gaseous manifestation of investiture the special case with vin was that she was moulded by preservation to become the next holder of that shard and so when she drew on the mists it was like regular allomancy as the power didn't diminish as she used it 

I believe a Radiant can use the mists directly, but as it is sourced from a different shard and magic system, that it would require a hack to accomplish. 

[stormbourne]

another thing that soulcaster specific is the focus much like a mistborn and feruchemist the power is almost irrelevant and what's more important is what metal is use so when soulcasting what metal do you think will do what?

[Quantus]

14 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

 

I believe a Radiant can use the mists directly, but as it is sourced from a different shard and magic system, that it would require a hack to accomplish. 

Im of two minds about that part.  On the one hand, I figure it would take a hack precisely as much as it takes a hack to use Stormlight for Awakening, which is to say for some reason Stormlight will feed a Divine Breath without hacking but needs a hack to use it for actual Awakening.  In reaching for an comparison, I think that could mean that a Radiant would be able to inhale the Mist and get the general benefits (self-healing, no need to breathe, increased physical traits, etc) but perhaps they could not use it for actual Surges?  On the other hand, if a radiant can power surges with the Investiture present in a Perpendicularity, is the shardpool liquid really that much different than the mist?  Both are condensed Investiture that exists in the Physical Realm rather than requiring a conduit Connection to Preservation as with the Compounding Hack.  

[Pathfinder]

39 minutes ago, stormbourne said:

another thing that soulcaster specific is the focus much like a mistborn and feruchemist the power is almost irrelevant and what's more important is what metal is use so when soulcasting what metal do you think will do what?

The metal acts as a gateway to the power of preservation. The type of metal acts as a shape of the gateway resulting in a certain power. Compounding hacks this by changing what the output is, but still being fueled by the power of preservation instead of personal stores. So theoretically it would not matter what matter is used, so long as the hack works, resulting in the output being soulcasting instead of allomancy. 

19 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Im of two minds about that part.  On the one hand, I figure it would take a hack precisely as much as it takes a hack to use Stormlight for Awakening, which is to say for some reason Stormlight will feed a Divine Breath without hacking but needs a hack to use it for actual Awakening.  In reaching for an comparison, I think that could mean that a Radiant would be able to inhale the Mist and get the general benefits (self-healing, no need to breathe, increased physical traits, etc) but perhaps they could not use it for actual Surges?  On the other hand, if a radiant can power surges with the Investiture present in a Perpendicularity, is the shardpool liquid really that much different than the mist?  Both are condensed Investiture that exists in the Physical Realm rather than requiring a conduit Connection to Preservation as with the Compounding Hack.  

Do we know for a fact that it is not a hack to fuel divine breath with stormlight? I was under the impress both are hacks, but just awakening was not figured out yet. 

[Ixthos]

I suspect that the focus is fundamental to the method of the system, so gems are the only way to use fabrials, but the underlying principles can be applied across systems, such as Vashar manipulating the girls memory, something associated with copper, and Hoid being able to use the core of feruchemy without actually using feruchemy. Honourblades are like medallions in granting abilities, and the Ire stored up connection to use to capture a shard, much like a feruchemist.

 

Now, in other terms, I think - in addition to using one system to power another - the three main ones (Scadrial's, Sel's, Roshar's) might be able to add or adapt parts of or properties of other systems to one another - so perhaps finding a way to turn some Lerasium into a spren and capturing it in a gem, or Hemalurgy being used, or simply finding a way to tie properties of one system into a Sellish glyph.

[Quantus]

18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Do we know for a fact that it is not a hack to fuel divine breath with stormlight? I was under the impress both are hacks, but just awakening was not figured out yet. 

Good point, as far as I know we dont know anything specific so we dont know what if anything it took to make it work.  We dont even know if Vasher is the only Nalthian we've seen that would need to try, so Im not sure what data can be used.  We do know that using Stormlight for Awakening would require a different Hack, since Vasher has figured out one but not the other.   

[Friendshipspren]

On 10/2/2019 at 9:20 PM, stormbourne said:

in the example given i mean what the smeg would a soulcaster, radient or fabiral, be able to achieve if instead of a gemstone they had another planets focus be that scadrian metals, nalthis's three C's, or any of the multitude present on sel

as for the topic in general how would a given system of magic work if it was using another systems manifestation of investiture

What are the three C's ?

[Dancer]

The reason Vin was able to use the mists was because Preservation actively increased her connection to the mists. Any regular allomancer, Mistborn, Lerrasium Mistborn or Feruchemist can't just breath in the mists because their connection with preservation is not high enough. I believe that this will also apply to any Radient that happened to be able to hack their way into Allomancy. They are able to breath in the Highstorms because they are bonded to literally a sentient piece of that particular Investiture.  

[stormbourne]

3 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

What are the three C's ?

chroma, colour, command they're needed for the magics in warbreaker

[Friendshipspren]

3 hours ago, stormbourne said:

chroma, colour, command they're needed for the magics in warbreaker

Oh kk. Thanks. I wonder why I haven't heard that abbreviation before.

[Dunadan Windrunner]

This all makes me wonder what would happen if Lift tried to burn metals. 

[Karger]

36 minutes ago, Dunadan Windrunner said:

This all makes me wonder what would happen if Lift tried to burn metals. 

Lift can't burn metals.  She is not a Mistborn or Mistling.  If she did manage to hack the system she would just fuel her surges off of those metals.

[Calderis]

I think there's a bit of confusion here. 

The focus of a magic is a part the way that it developed. Soulcasting came from Roshar, and we don't actually know the focus there. The gems are just a means of holding the Investiture and with Soulcasting, the color of the gem is tied to the essence it's able to produce... You could hack that to run by other means, but you'd have to hack the Investiture to fuel Soulcasting the way it functions. You can't actually change what Soulcasting is. 

Shifting a magic to a different focus would be shifting it to be a different system entirely. 

[stormbourne]

On 11/10/2019 at 5:18 AM, Calderis said:

I think there's a bit of confusion here. 

The focus of a magic is a part the way that it developed. Soulcasting came from Roshar, and we don't actually know the focus there. The gems are just a means of holding the Investiture and with Soulcasting, the color of the gem is tied to the essence it's able to produce... You could hack that to run by other means, but you'd have to hack the Investiture to fuel Soulcasting the way it functions. You can't actually change what Soulcasting is. 

Shifting a magic to a different focus would be shifting it to be a different system entirely. 

in most cases the gem doesn't matter but for soulcasting it does aside from that the focus seems to be the spren in question

[Calderis]

14 minutes ago, stormbourne said:

in most cases the gem doesn't matter but for soulcasting it does aside from that the focus seems to be the spren in question

There's a lot of dispute on that. Spren, or bonds, were popular for a long time and I was in the bonds camp. 

More recently, I think that Roshar's focus is the Surges themselves.