Guest Parallax Posted October 2, 2019 Report Share Posted October 2, 2019 (edited) First we need a definition of spiritual aspects and the Spiritual Realm: Quote [Spiritual aspects] are the essences of various objects: they are that without which a thing would not be the kind of thing it is. For example, there are countless tables in the world but the [spiritual aspect] of being a table is at the core; it is the essence of all of them. The [Spiritual Realm] is transcendent to [Physical Realm] and also is the essential basis of reality. Super-ordinate to matter, [spiritual aspects] are the most pure of all things. Furthermore true knowledge is the ability to grasp the [Spiritual Realm] with one’s mind. [Spiritual aspects] transcend space in that they have no spatial dimensions, and thus no orientation in space, nor do they even (like the point) have a location. They are non-physical, but they are not in the mind. [Spiritual aspects] are extra-mental (i.e. real in the strictest sense of the word). [Spiritual aspects] are objective “blueprints” of perfection. They are perfect representations of objects and qualities. For example, say there is a triangle drawn on a blackboard. A triangle is a polygon with three sides. The triangle as it is on the blackboard is far from perfect. However, it is only the intelligibility of the [spiritual aspect] “triangle” that allows us to know the drawing on the chalkboard is a triangle, and the [spiritual aspect] “triangle” is perfect. It is exactly the same wherever anyone chooses to consider it. So the quote above is copied (with modifications of course) from the Wikipedia page of Plato's Theory of Forms. Now we need to deviate so that this works for the Cosmere: 1. Any living being has a unique spiritual aspect. 2. The spiritual aspect of a living being is made up of various parts, when emphasizing this aspect of spiritual aspect use the phrase spirit web. 3. Any conscious being has a cognitive aspect in the Cognitive Realm in addition to their spiritual aspect. 4. The Spiritual Realm is temporal (it has a notion of time), in particular spiritual aspects of living beings can change over time while non-living objects do not. 5. Connection is a link formed between any two spiritual aspects in the Spiritual Realm. 6. Identity is the link between a conscious being and their spiritual aspect. 7. Investiture, in addition to suffusing all three realms, powers Connections and links between the three realms. 8. A conscious being is alive so long as its three aspects are connected through investiture powered links. Think of being alive as a current of investiture continuously coursing through the links connecting the three aspects (we call this the life current). 9. A living being without consciousness dies when the link connecting its body to its spiritual aspect is broken. 10. A conscious being experiences death when all three links connecting its three aspects are broken. 11. True death happens after death once the spiritual aspect moves to Beyond. 12. Cognitive Shadows are conscious beings that have experienced death but their life current has been restarted before true death. How the restarting happened can vary greatly which explains the variety we see in this group. 13. Hoid is hard to kill because the magnitude of his life current is very large. Imagine a gold compounder and then amplify it by several orders of magnitude. 14. Nighblood is the investiture equivalent of a blackhole. As it absorbs more investiture it becomes more powerful. 15. Hoid fears Nighblood because Nightblood can consume an inordinate amount of investiture in a short period of time (not to mention his consumption rate will increase as it absorbs more investiture). We would need exact numbers for Nighblood's consumption rate and Hoid's life current to make any predictions, but one could imagine Hoid surviving getting struck by Nightblood but with his life current being reduced to that of an ordinary person. 16. Nighblood is a danger to the Cosmere itself. The amount of investiture in the Cosmere is a fixed finite amount, if left unchecked Nightblook coould absorb the vast majority of the investiture destabilizing all three realms and their connections to each other. Edited October 2, 2019 by Parallax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted October 2, 2019 Report Share Posted October 2, 2019 I think your definition of Identity is off the mark. If it were the actual link between the Cognitive and their Spiritual, then blanking it via feruchemy should have much more direct impact on sentience, more along the lines of how those humans became Mistwraiths when they lost that connection (a connection that needs hemalurgy to repair). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted October 2, 2019 Report Share Posted October 2, 2019 17 hours ago, Parallax said: First we need a definition of spiritual aspects and the Spiritual Realm: So the quote above is copied (with modifications of course) from the Wikipedia page of Plato's Theory of Forms. Now we need to deviate so that this works for the Cosmere: 1. Any living being has a unique spiritual aspect. Not just living beings. Objects as well. 17 hours ago, Parallax said: 3. Any conscious being has a cognitive aspect in the Cognitive Realm in addition to their spiritual aspect. not just conscious beings. Objects as well. 17 hours ago, Parallax said: 4. The Spiritual Realm is temporal (it has a notion of time), in particular spiritual aspects of living beings can change over time while non-living objects do not. The spiritual realm is outside time. It is all places and all times. That is where the power of the shards resides. That is why an allomancer can burn metals anywhere in the cosmere. The cognitive realm is location and time dependent. That is why the dor being shoved into the cognitive realm resulted in power users on Sel being location dependent. Sanderson is considering using the spiritual realm as the means to teleport, but it is not canon yet as he still has to work some things out. 17 hours ago, Parallax said: 8. A conscious being is alive so long as its three aspects are connected through investiture powered links. Think of being alive as a current of investiture continuously coursing through the links connecting the three aspects (we call this the life current). Cognitive shadows can be "alive" but not have all three aspects connected. 17 hours ago, Parallax said: 9. A living being without consciousness dies when the link connecting its body to its spiritual aspect is broken. I am not sure we have confirmation of that. Not saying it is wrong, but I do not know if we have anything explicitly saying that is how it functions. 17 hours ago, Parallax said: 10. A conscious being experiences death when all three links connecting its three aspects are broken. Shardblade severs the soul without harming the physical yet that causes death. 17 hours ago, Parallax said: 11. True death happens after death once the spiritual aspect moves to Beyond. That is left ambiguous on purpose. The spiritual aspect is separate from the soul. The spiritual aspect returns to the spiritual realm, and "something" "possibly" goes "elsewhere". In world individuals theorize it is the beyond, but what the beyond is, and if it even exists is meant to be left ambiguous by Sanderson. 17 hours ago, Parallax said: 12. Cognitive Shadows are conscious beings that have experienced death but their life current has been restarted before true death. How the restarting happened can vary greatly which explains the variety we see in this group. A cognitive shadow is when you are suffused with investiture enough to create a "petrified wood" effect. We do not know that "death" is required to create one. 17 hours ago, Parallax said: 15. Hoid fears Nighblood because Nightblood can consume an inordinate amount of investiture in a short period of time (not to mention his consumption rate will increase as it absorbs more investiture). We would need exact numbers for Nighblood's consumption rate and Hoid's life current to make any predictions, but one could imagine Hoid surviving getting struck by Nightblood but with his life current being reduced to that of an ordinary person. Brandon has not confirmed this. Only that Hoid is worried about Nightblood 17 hours ago, Parallax said: 16. Nighblood is a danger to the Cosmere itself. The amount of investiture in the Cosmere is a fixed finite amount, if left unchecked Nightblook coould absorb the vast majority of the investiture destabilizing all three realms and their connections to each other. We know Nightblood is a danger, and it can consume massive amounts of investiture, but we do not know it will destabilize the three realms and their connections. Unless I missed a WoB. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezzik Posted October 3, 2019 Report Share Posted October 3, 2019 On 10/1/2019 at 7:59 PM, Parallax said: Nighblood is a danger to the Cosmere itself. The amount of investiture in the Cosmere is a fixed finite amount, if left unchecked Nightblook coould absorb the vast majority of the investiture destabilizing all three realms and their connections to each other Nope. If left unchecked, he would start to sound sleepy or drunk, but he wouldn't start eating the planet, or anything crazy. Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 7, 2017) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not an Evil Librarian Posted October 3, 2019 Report Share Posted October 3, 2019 On 10/2/2019 at 0:14 PM, Pathfinder said: Quote 3. Any conscious being has a cognitive aspect in the Cognitive Realm in addition to their spiritual aspect. not just conscious beings. Objects as well. At least objects that are perceived by conscious beings, not necessarily all objects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Parallax Posted October 4, 2019 Report Share Posted October 4, 2019 @Quantus I think you misread conscious being refers to a being in the Physical Realm that has consciousness. @Pathfinder the quote at the beginning talks about objects. I have added time in the Spiritual Realm because saying there is no time is inconsistent with the books themselves. If there was no time you would not be able to affect the Spiritual Realm which happens in the books, for example here is how hemalurgy works: "The spike, now containing a fragment of stolen Spiritweb, is then ripped out and embedded in the recipient, stapling the ability directly into their spiritual DNA (sDNA)." Without a notion of a time you can't have change. As for the rest, my post was meant to be a complete theory that is consistent with the books and fully explains various debatable subjects which is why you don't see me citing WoBs for example. @John203 The WoB you quote does not contradict my point, I don't think Nighblood's state of drowsiness is permanent. Moreover if my understanding is correct, the more investiture it consumes the harder it will be to reach that point. @Not an Evil Librarian I probably need to change the word I use but I think we should make a difference between the cognitive representation of beings that have a sense of self and beings who don't. So the stick has a presence in the Cognitive Realm but in my scheme that is fundamentally different from the one associated to something that is conscious and therefore can think about itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inky Posted October 4, 2019 Report Share Posted October 4, 2019 10 hours ago, Parallax said: I have added time in the Spiritual Realm because saying there is no time is inconsistent with the books themselves. If there was no time you would not be able to affect the Spiritual Realm which happens in the books, The Spiritual Realm is independent of time, but those who affect it are not. It is all times, but people can't really comprehend that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Parallax Posted October 6, 2019 Report Share Posted October 6, 2019 On 10/4/2019 at 10:01 AM, Inky said: The Spiritual Realm is independent of time, but those who affect it are not. It is all times, but people can't really comprehend that. If something is independent of time it can't change at all but we know that the spectral aspect of people (which is in the Spectral Realm) does change (hemalurgy being the best example). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 (edited) On 10/6/2019 at 3:51 AM, Parallax said: If something is independent of time it can't change at all but we know that the spectral aspect of people (which is in the Spectral Realm) does change (hemalurgy being the best example). Ironeyes So, uh, we know that the charcoal creatures are afraid of coins. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Ironeyes So are the white chalk creatures, which I think are called Shadowblazes… Brandon Sanderson Yes. Ironeyes Are they also afraid of coins? Brandon Sanderson Are they also afraid of coins? To a much lesser extent. Um, I can give you guys some backstory on this. What’s going on here is that the place these things come from, um, linear structure and things like this are frightening to them, like they come from a non-linear location. Time does not move linearly where they come from. When they come into this world, structure and linear time progression, is bizarre to them. And there are some who have embraced it, and been like, “This is cool and different!” and there are others that are still terrified of it, as a representation of what is so alien from the world they came from. So that’s why we’ve got this whole clocks, and even structure, as a metaphor for, um, something that is terrifying to them. Uh, Rithmatist started in the Cosmere. The magic shares a lot of its roots, then, in Cosmere magic worldbuilding. I split if off because I wrote the whole first book with it being in the Cosmere. I split it off, saying “No, I don’t want Earth to be in the Cosmere.” Even an alternate version of Earth. It just raises too many questions about the nature of Earth being involved in this. I want the Cosmere to be its own dwarf galaxy of which not even a dimension of Earth is involved. And when I made that decision, I broke Rithmatist off. That’s the only one I had written that didn’t belong, but it still has, so, it means that the magic is going to feel very familiar to you, uh, it’s going to feel like the magic of a, um, of the Cosmere. And Cosmere magic is based around, usually, human beings making a symbiotic bond with an entity made out of the magic. This is, kind of, one of the origins of Cosmere magic, and Rithmatist has, therefore, its roots in that. I’ve done some things since I’ve split it off in the outlines to distinguish it, but it’s going to have the same roots. So you’ll notice some things like that, that are similar. Questioner Uh, before you split The Rithmatist from the Cosmere, did the Shadowblazes come from the Cognitive realm? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. Yeah, the Shadowblazes were in the Cognitive realm, they’re--you know, well, they’re more Spiritual realm. They were Spiritual realm, sorry. They were Spiritual realm entities that got pulled in, uh, to the Physical realm. And the Spiritual realm has no time, um, it exists independent of time and location, all times and all places are one, and so, uh, when something that’s from the Spiritual realm got pulled into the Physical realm, it was like, “This is so weird!” Um, and there are very few things in the Cosmere that exist only on the Spiritual realm, which was a really fun thing I could do with this book, was show that. Cause most things exist on all three realms. Um, so, yeah. So, yeah, I mean if you’ve got, if you’re a Cosmere, uh, theologian--not theologian, magic, uh, what do you call it? Uh, they call that, uh, I have a word for it in-world. But anyway, if you’re a realmatic theorist, you can kind of pick out how the Spiritual realm beings were related, originally, to the realmatic theory. Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017) Questioner In Shadesmar, the solid and liquid phases are inverted. So, in the Spiritual Realm, is it something to do with solid and gas phases, or is it not the same at all? Brandon Sanderson It is not quite where you're going, but I like the way you're thinking. Questioner So then what's the reason that they can't travel to the Spiritual Realm? Brandon Sanderson The Spiritual Realm is not a place. Skyward San Francisco signing (Nov. 8, 2018) Argent Can somebody travel to the Spiritual Realm, the same as the Cognitive? Brandon Sanderson Yes, but it's a very different experience. It is possible… You may have seen people do it... Argent As in you're not sure, or you're being obnoxiously vague? Brandon Sanderson No... Questioner #1 As in, you probably have but he's having trouble remembering it. Brandon Sanderson No no no... For instance, Elend burning atium and duralumin pulled most of him into the Spiritual Realm. Argent Oh, that's what happens there. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. He kind of got yanked into- You also have seen people Ascend with the powers and dip into the Spiritual Realm for a little bit. Argent So, Vin? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. But they could be on both, or either, or both at the same time. But you have seen Vin stick into the Spiritual Realm. And it happened to Sazed/Harmony... Questioner #2 Oh! So is that where the gods live? Kinda? Brandon Sanderson Most of the bulk of the Shard's energy of being is contained in the Spiritual Realm, yes. Except for one notable exception! Questioner #2 The <mists? mistwraith?>? Brandon Sanderson No. Footnote: We now know that the "one notable exception" Brandon refers to at the end is the Dor, which is mostly contained in the Cognitive Realm.Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015) Questioner How do states of matter affect how things look in the Cognitive and Spiritual Realms? Brandon Sanderson So, generally, how people perceive something is very important to the reflection in the Cognitive Realm, and so the physical state of matter is going to be involved in that, but generally, it flows the other direction from the Spiritual Realm. Questioner Do the forms of Investiture that we've seen, Stormlight, metals, Shardpools, do the fact that those happen in general the same types of states of matter, all physical, solid, is kinda going to be like metal for Investiture? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, that is generally the way it will be. Oathbringer Portland signing (Nov. 16, 2017) Oudeis If a seon were on Roshar, could it still communicate instantly with seons on Sel? Brandon Sanderson So, let’s just say the Cognitive Realm is bounded by distance, and the Spiritual Realm is not. So it depends on how that mechanic is working. Calamity Philadelphia signing (Feb. 20, 2016) Ward When Harmony Ascends, he admits he doesn't have a good view of the Spiritual Realm. Does he develop a better one over time? And are there other Shards that already have a very good view of that? Brandon Sanderson Yes. But it is still something that is hard to grok, so to speak, in-canon, *inaudible*, hard to understand. But he has a much better understanding, and the other Shards, some of them have a very good understanding. The thing is, the difference between the Spiritual Realm and the Beyond is not something that is immediately obvious. Ward So, the Spiritual Realm is not the Beyond? Brandon Sanderson No, Spiritual Realm is not the Beyond. There are three Realms of existence. The Beyond, some would say... There are philosophers would would say, the Spiritual Realm and the Beyond are one, that the soul gets sucked into and joins the Investiture. That's the idea of the One. But, most people would say the Beyond is not... Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016) RankWeis I've been thinking about the Parshendi and I guess this is as good a place to ask as any - when the parshendi change, there's an obvious change in the physical realm, and there seems to be a change in the cognitive realm as well. Is there a change in the spiritual realm? I know we haven't dug much into it, but it seems like a change in the spiritual realm is very difficult or impossible - if you could change in the spiritual realm is it really the same 'thing' at the end of the process? Mostly I'm curious about the first question...the second question is more of a philosophical train of thought. Brandon Sanderson Things in the spiritual realm do change, but subtly. For instance, a person's spiritual component knows how old they are. Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 20, 2016) Questioner Mistborn travels to Roshar, what does he or she use to get Invested? Brandon Sanderson *pause* So. *pause* I think I've talked about this before on the 17th Shard, but I'm not 100% sure and so I don't want to anything right now, not knowing what I've said. But you can look it up. You can ask Peter. Hey Peter, have I talked about someone using-- Have I ever in an interview before talked about using metals... A Mistborn travels to Roshar and uses the metals there? Peter Ahlstrom I think that you have said that they could do it. Brandon Sanderson I said it. Okay, so the thing about the metals you have to understand is the metals are a key, the metals are not magical themselves, except for specific ones. If I've already said that I can tell you, go to Roshar and you could use the metals that are there to power your Allomancy because the difference is in your soul and you're actually drawing directly from Preservation. Remember that on the Spiritual Realm, this is the big tidbit--they're listening. On the Spiritual Realm time, distance, and space are irrelevant. It's a place where time and space are compounded in one. So anything that exists on the Spiritual Realm, space doesn't matter for it. Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015) Edited October 7, 2019 by Pathfinder 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted October 9, 2019 Report Share Posted October 9, 2019 The realms exist in a hierarchical state. Anything that exists in the Physical Realm will exist in all three realms. Cognitive beings/objects will have a spiritual aspect. We've been told that purely spiritual beings can exist, but have yet to see them. My personal take on it is that Investiture is the medium onto which all information in the Cosmere is encoded. Connection is the method by which that information is encoded. Identity is nothing more than a marker that pervades any distinct item and says "this Investiture is a part of this thing" Fortune is... Something weird. The Spiritual is the source code of reality. Time and location exist there as information relevant to the other realms, but don't hold relevance to the Spiritual itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Parallax Posted October 11, 2019 Report Share Posted October 11, 2019 @Pathfinder The vast majority of what you have quoted is perfectly consistent with my original post. The only problematic ones are those that claim the Spiritual Realm is atemporal. Unfortunately this is a logical mistake, you can't have change without time and we know that Spiritual Realm changes a great deal @Calderis The three realms are hierarchical (my ordering: Spritual > Physical > Cognitive). I also agree that Fortune is strange, in fact it is the only spiritual term that I have left out of my explanation above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted October 11, 2019 Report Share Posted October 11, 2019 13 minutes ago, Parallax said: you can't have change without time and we know that Spiritual Realm changes a great deal We do? How? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiberty Posted October 11, 2019 Report Share Posted October 11, 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Parallax said: you can't have change without time and we know that Spiritual Realm changes a great deal You can have change without time. You just can't have change with respect to time. All that means is that the Spiritual Realm has to be changing with respect to... something else. 8 minutes ago, Karger said: We do? How? Quote RankWeis I've been thinking about the Parshendi and I guess this is as good a place to ask as any - when the parshendi change, there's an obvious change in the physical realm, and there seems to be a change in the cognitive realm as well. Is there a change in the spiritual realm? I know we haven't dug much into it, but it seems like a change in the spiritual realm is very difficult or impossible - if you could change in the spiritual realm is it really the same 'thing' at the end of the process? Mostly I'm curious about the first question...the second question is more of a philosophical train of thought. Brandon Sanderson Things in the spiritual realm do change, but subtly. For instance, a person's spiritual component knows how old they are. Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 20, 2016) Edited October 11, 2019 by ChickenLiberty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Parallax Posted October 11, 2019 Report Share Posted October 11, 2019 @Karger the most explicit examples are life, death and hemalurgy all of which make changes to the Spiritual Realm. @ChickenLiberty you could use the fact that many changes in the Spiritual Realm can be tied directly to events in the Physical Realm to define time by mapping the Physical Realm timeline onto the Spiritual Realm. For example someone gets a hemalurgic spike at a specific point in time that changes their spirit web. So you can map the moment of change in the Spiritual Realm to that specific time in the Physical Realm. Brandon is simply wrong when he says Spiritual Realm is atemporal, it contradicts his world building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiberty Posted October 11, 2019 Report Share Posted October 11, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Parallax said: For example someone gets a hemalurgic spike at a specific point in time that changes their spirit web. So you can map the moment of change in the Spiritual Realm to that specific time in the Physical Realm. Technically, that doesn't have to be a change in the Spiritual Realm. With fortune, we can see that other points in time are already in the Spiritual Realm. The physical Realm is just changing to manifest different parts of the Spiritual Realm. Edited October 11, 2019 by ChickenLiberty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted October 11, 2019 Report Share Posted October 11, 2019 (edited) The Spiritual leaves a "corpse" when people die just like the Physical. Hemalurgy doesn't need to "change" the Spiritual so much as redirect the way a piece of the Spiritual functions. Which is why is said that time does exist in the Spiritual, it's just informational. The past and the fute both exist in the Spiritual. Fortune works on probability, and allomantic gold shows that alternative pasts exist as well. Just because things appear to change in the Physical and Cognitive doesn't mean anything actually changes there. We aren't going to touch on it, and Brandon has a set path in mind for the Cosmere... But the Spiritual as it's been explained could literally function as a source code for a multiverse of infinite Cognitive and Physical realms accessing different pathways. "changes" in the Spiritual could be purely perception in the other realms shifting the access to a different piece of a static but infinite information pool. Edited October 11, 2019 by Calderis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiberty Posted October 11, 2019 Report Share Posted October 11, 2019 I agree with that explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Parallax Posted October 11, 2019 Report Share Posted October 11, 2019 52 minutes ago, ChickenLiberty said: Technically, that doesn't have to be a change in the Spiritual Realm. With fortune, we can see that other points in time are already in the Spiritual Realm. The physical Realm is just changing to manifest different parts of the Spiritual Realm. You are making assumptions about Fortune. Also that is exactly how time is defined in the physical universe: as different points in the spacetime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Parallax Posted October 11, 2019 Report Share Posted October 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Calderis said: The Spiritual leaves a "corpse" when people die just like the Physical. Hemalurgy doesn't need to "change" the Spiritual so much as redirect the way a piece of the Spiritual functions. Which is why is said that time does exist in the Spiritual, it's just informational. The past and the fute both exist in the Spiritual. Fortune works on probability, and allomantic gold shows that alternative pasts exist as well. Just because things appear to change in the Physical and Cognitive doesn't mean anything actually changes there. We aren't going to touch on it, and Brandon has a set path in mind for the Cosmere... But the Spiritual as it's been explained could literally function as a source code for a multiverse of infinite Cognitive and Physical realms accessing different pathways. "changes" in the Spiritual could be purely perception in the other realms shifting the access to a different piece of a static but infinite information pool. Using hemalurgy causes wear and tear in the spirit web which is why the user can be influenced by others, and in extreme cases completely loses control. Also we are told snapping is required so the spirit web cracks and allows for the "magic to seep in" (beyond those you have the easy example of new life). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted October 11, 2019 Report Share Posted October 11, 2019 1 minute ago, Parallax said: Using hemalurgy causes wear and tear in the spirit web which is why the user can be influenced by others, and in extreme cases completely loses control. Also we are told snapping is required so the spirit web cracks and allows for the "magic to seep in" (beyond those you have the easy example of new life). The spike allows an inroad into the Spiritual that allows access... From others that are subject to the same causality. The "cracks" and snapping are again, just an informational change. A "new life" doesn't have to be creation on the Spiritual anymore than death is an end. The Spiritual Aspect could exist before the person does Physically or Cognitively. For example, a AI or type IV awakened object have been described as "calling a soul unto themselves" not creating one. (I really wish I could find the original WoB, and not just one that references it) Quote NeedsAdjustment You've said before that if a sentient computer were developed, it would call a soul into itself. Could it be Hemalurgically spiked? Brandon Sanderson Theoretically, yes, but I have no idea yet how the logistics of that would work. Stormlight Three Update #4 (Oct. 5, 2016) Quote Blightsong You've said that, AI in the cosmere, creating one is kind of like having a child realmatically. Would that extend to most sapient creations? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Blightsong So could a created spren from a Returned inherit Royal Locks? Within a reasonable possibility? Brandon Sanderson *ahhing in a very curious manner* You could make this happen, but I don't think it would happen naturally. Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018) Spiritual information that isn't being utilized in the current timeframe in the Cognitive and Physical doesn't mean it isn't there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiberty Posted October 11, 2019 Report Share Posted October 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Parallax said: You are making assumptions about Fortune. Yes. Although all I assumed was that Fortune uses the Spiritual Realm to see future possibilities, which is pretty reasonable considering the examples we've been given. It could be wrong, but that doesn't really matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wander89 Posted October 12, 2019 Report Share Posted October 12, 2019 I knew I'd seen the words Spiritual Mumbo Jumbo used on this site before. There's a Shardcast! Spiritual Mumbo Jumbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Parallax Posted October 13, 2019 Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 (edited) On 10/10/2019 at 11:43 PM, Calderis said: The spike allows an inroad into the Spiritual that allows access... From others that are subject to the same causality. The "cracks" and snapping are again, just an informational change. A "new life" doesn't have to be creation on the Spiritual anymore than death is an end. The Spiritual Aspect could exist before the person does Physically or Cognitively. For example, a AI or type IV awakened object have been described as "calling a soul unto themselves" not creating one. (I really wish I could find the original WoB, and not just one that references it) Spiritual information that isn't being utilized in the current timeframe in the Cognitive and Physical doesn't mean it isn't there. I don't know what you mean by "informational change" and how it is different from plain old regular change. Anyway here is a WoB from Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017): Quote Q: How does rewriting the Spiritual aspect work? Brandon: ...So, it has ramifications through the other two Realms. It can happen. You've seen it happen. Q: That's what happens with kandra, right? Brandon: Yes, to an extent, yes. Q: With the koloss? Brandon: Yeah, both of them. Hemalurgy is, like, sticking a piece of someone's spirit to another person's spirit and creating a Frankenstein's monster of spirits. Frankenstein's monster was an actual monster not an informational monster! @ChickenLiberty The way I imagine access to Fortune works is that gives whoever accesses it a piece of information they can use "Go to the Shattered Plains" rather than a tree of possibilities with probability attached to each path. @Wander89 Yes, that episode and the one on Cognitive Shadows were the inspirations for this post. Edited October 13, 2019 by Parallax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted October 13, 2019 Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 @Parallax I'm well aware of the WoBs, and I'm sorry if you don't understand my meaning, but nothing that you've pointed out contradicts my view. The "Frankenstein's monster" is perfectly possible in my view because your redirecting the output of the code into one being... But you can't literally "move" anything in a realm with no space. There's nowhere to move. There no direction. It is one "point" both directionally and temporally. When information is accessed in a hard drive to play out a computer program, it doesn't matter what order you do anything in the code doesn't "move." the way thing are accessed and output into the program change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Parallax Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 On 10/13/2019 at 7:50 AM, Calderis said: @Parallax I'm well aware of the WoBs, and I'm sorry if you don't understand my meaning, but nothing that you've pointed out contradicts my view. The "Frankenstein's monster" is perfectly possible in my view because your redirecting the output of the code into one being... But you can't literally "move" anything in a realm with no space. There's nowhere to move. There no direction. It is one "point" both directionally and temporally. When information is accessed in a hard drive to play out a computer program, it doesn't matter what order you do anything in the code doesn't "move." the way thing are accessed and output into the program change. You haven't given a definition of "informational change" and how it is not actually change. For example in your hard drive metaphor what plays the role of the spiritual aspect? Because the way I read it you are implying the code is the spiritual aspect, in which case what does a hemalurgical spike do? It cuts a piece of code from another program and adds it to the new one, in other words it is changing the code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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