dream team vs lord ruler

[Pathfinder]

17 hours ago, Karger said:

No.  You are thinking of southern tec again.  My idea is based on a theoretically sound principles.  The only reason a Mistborn can't get an effect from a metalmind is that metalminds are identity locked.  An unlocked metalmind should confer F abilities on the Mistborn burning it.  A fullborn should be able to make blank nicrosil metalmind that when tapped by a feruchemist grants alomancy by the same method.

Ah I understand what you are proposing better. I still don't think it will work for two reasons, but I understand now. 

1. They did not know about nicrosil at that time, so Sazed would not be able to store it. 

2. We do not know that if you burn a identity free nicrosil metal mind of a feruchemical ability, would turn you into a feruchemist of that ability. Potentially it could, but theoretically it would only last so long as you burn the metal. It potentially would not be permanent. Basically we just don't know. 

 

I believe the situation you are drawing upon is the WoB where if someone spiked out feruchemical gold from Miles, but he still had allomanic gold, and had a metal mind full of gold health left over, he could still burn that gold metal mind for feruchemical healing, thereby healing his spirit web, making him a feruchemist again. So I agree, theoretically, if you made a metal mind without identity, and gave it to an allomancer with that power analogue in allomancy, they could burn it and get the feruchemical ability out of it. What I am uncertain of, is if you could do it in such a way to change you into a feruchemist of that ability. But it is an interesting thought. 

[Karger]

35 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

1. They did not know about nicrosil at that time, so Sazed would not be able to store it. 

We bring it with us from Era 2

36 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

We do not know that if you burn a identity free nicrosil metal mind of a feruchemical ability, would turn you into a feruchemist of that ability

The theory is sound.  Obviously you should prep several backups but this is a good plan.

36 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Potentially it could, but theoretically it would only last so long as you burn the metal

Correct however you then have the ability to compound which helps fix this problem.

37 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I believe the situation you are drawing upon is the WoB where if someone spiked out feruchemical gold from Miles, but he still had allomanic gold, and had a metal mind full of gold health left over, he could still burn that gold metal mind for feruchemical healing, thereby healing his spirit web, making him a feruchemist again

Yes

37 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So I agree, theoretically, if you made a metal mind without identity, and gave it to an allomancer with that power analogue in allomancy, they could burn it and get the feruchemical ability out of it. What I am uncertain of, is if you could do it in such a way to change you into a feruchemist of that ability. But it is an interesting thought. 

We also have have full feruchemist who can tap alomantic abilities whenever now.

[Pathfinder]

19 minutes ago, Karger said:

We bring it with us from Era 2

You can still run out though. 

19 minutes ago, Karger said:

The theory is sound.  Obviously you should prep several backups but this is a good plan.

Never said it wasn't. It takes quite a few assumptions, but if those assumptions do stand, then yes I agree it could work. But at this time we do not know if those assumptions do work. 

19 minutes ago, Karger said:

Correct however you then have the ability to compound which helps fix this problem.

True, though you can still run out. Compounding gives you far more than you would have normally, but you still burn through the metal, or empty stores from tapping. To my knowledge we also do not know the burn rate, though in Bands of Mourning, they run through the stores incredibly quickly. Wax comments he would need new metals to compound to restore them. 

19 minutes ago, Karger said:

We also have have full feruchemist who can tap alomantic abilities whenever now.

Theoretically yes. Again, not saying it isn't a good idea. Also not saying if all those assumptions were true, it would not work. Just saying we do not know at this point that it does in fact work that way. 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

You can still run out though. 

I don't think we need much.  We are only preforming one mission.  Also if necessary I think bringing the necessary lab equipment to make more should be possible.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Never said it wasn't. It takes quite a few assumptions, but if those assumptions do stand, then yes I agree it could work. But at this time we do not know if those assumptions do work. 

The assumptions are backed up by some evidence.  Weather or not it will work is less up in the air although I agree that since we have no way of testing we can't be absolutely sure it will work.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

True, though you can still run out. Compounding gives you far more than you would have normally, but you still burn through the metal, or empty stores from tapping. To my knowledge we also do not know the burn rate, though in Bands of Mourning, they run through the stores incredibly quickly. Wax comments he would need new metals to compound to restore them. 

This is true.  However we lack any evidence of how much charge was left and we can bring several kilos of metals with us if necessary.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Theoretically yes. Again, not saying it isn't a good idea. Also not saying if all those assumptions were true, it would not work. Just saying we do not know at this point that it does in fact work that way. 

Point made.

As a backup plan just tell them about deuralumin and aluminum and have an enhanced push on TLRs bracers.  That might do it

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

I don't think we need much.  We are only preforming one mission.  Also if necessary I think bringing the necessary lab equipment to make more should be possible.

Well you would need to be a fullborn as strong as the lord ruler right? So you would be burning/tapping as much as possible to (and this is potential because we do not know if it works this way either) be as strong or stronger of a feruchemist than the lord ruler. 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

The assumptions are backed up by some evidence.  Weather or not it will work is less up in the air although I agree that since we have no way of testing we can't be absolutely sure it will work.

The assumptions do make sense, but again we do not know if it works that way. Wax reasoned if you could get a medallion of 3 abilities, why not just wear multiple medallions, each with three separate abilities, so you have all the powers and be a fullborn? It makes sense. It should work based on what we know. Yet Allik confirms it does not. So could your idea work? Sure! But we do not know enough about the mechanics to be sure. There could be a reason it does not. Just like there is a reason that we do not know, that wearing multiple medallions does not work. 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

This is true.  However we lack any evidence of how much charge was left and we can bring several kilos of metals with us if necessary.

Several kilos of metal that need to be ingested or worn. 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Point made.

As a backup plan just tell them about deuralumin and aluminum and have an enhanced push on TLRs bracers.  That might do it

Basically re-creating what Vin did while being powered by the mists. 

[+robardin]

21 hours ago, Karger said:

No.  You are thinking of southern tec again.  My idea is based on a theoretically sound principles.  The only reason a Mistborn can't get an effect from a metalmind is that metalminds are identity locked.  An unlocked metalmind should confer F abilities on the Mistborn burning it.  A fullborn should be able to make blank nicrosil metalmind that when tapped by a feruchemist grants alomancy by the same method.

Put another way, based on what we know about the creation of blank-identity (unkeyed) metalminds, it involves filling a metalmind while simultaneously filling an aluminummind with Identity, resulting in the first metalmind being filled with an attribute that can be tapped by anybody with the Feruchemical ability to tap that metal. This is how Kelesina's goldmind ended up being usable by Wayne, to his great surprise.

However, another aspect of using an unkeyed, no-identity metalmind is that even if someone could use it, the fact that it is an Invested metalmind at all must be known. Wayne only thought to use the gold bracelet as a metalmind for himself, only when Wax said "I think it already is one" did he suddenly "see" the Investiture.

When we see "unsealed" medallions in action that anybody can use, those are unkeyed nicrosilminds to grant a Metalborn power - whoever taps the nicrosilmind, temporarily gains the Investiture that represents the ability to burn or to tap a specific metal. This is combined with a metalmind that matches that power. That's how the "memory coins" work, they're medallions filled with an unkeyed aluminummind for F-copper, along with a ring of copper stored with the memory. And like any other unkeyed metalmind, you have to realize what it is before you can access it.

To create the Bands of Mourning, then, for all the powers, seems to require a Full Feruchemist, of which there are not supposed to be any left after the Catacendre, or else someone spiked for all the Feruchemical powers. Using the Excisors, whatever they are, is limited to creating medallions storing 2, at most 3 powers in the same nicrosilmind, and simply wearing multiple medallions of different types conflict with each other. That's the RAFO bit we all puzzle over.

Now if you HAVE Sazed around (plus other Keepers like Tindwyl) due to traveling back from Era 2 to meet up with Kelsier's crew, and can plan ahead to bring a goodly supply of aluminum and nicrosil, then yeah. You could educate Sazed as to their uses, and he could create a big, unsealed nicrosilmind that granted all sixteen Feruchemical powers (plus atium, haha.).

Then hand it over to a Mistborn like Vin or Kelsier, who could then use their Allomancy in those metals to create metalminds they could then burn to Compound, and create Bands that included the sixteen Allomantic powers as well.

ETA: That's one of my pet crackpot theories, about where is the Full Feruchemist that Kelsier needed to create the Bands? Either he got jacked up to Fullborn, which it seems like Harmony would not do; or a Full Feruchemist somehow did survive the Catacendre, who was willing to work with Kelsier, and who did not participate in the rebuilding of the world and went unnoticed by history. That also seems very unlikely, especially if that Feruchemist had been a Keeper. So my pet theory is, it's one of the First Generation of kandra, who unlike all subsequent generations had started out as a human Feruchemist, and was willing and able to help out - maybe in the Cognitive Realm where he appeared after dying like that obligator-turned-koloss had done that Kelsier talked to in Secret History.

Edited October 8, 2019 by robardin

[Karger]

4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Well you would need to be a fullborn as strong as the lord ruler right? So you would be burning/tapping as much as possible to (and this is potential because we do not know if it works this way either) be as strong or stronger of a feruchemist than the lord ruler. 

Not really.  Three Fullborn less strong should do the job.

5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

But we do not know enough about the mechanics to be sure. There could be a reason it does not. Just like there is a reason that we do not know, that wearing multiple medallions does not work. 

This is possible.  However it currently seems viable.  If you wait until you are certain of victory you will almost certainly loose.

8 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Several kilos of metal that need to be ingested or worn. 

Several kilos that we are taking back in time.  I we don't know the method.  Why would you come to that conclusion? 

8 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Basically re-creating what Vin did while being powered by the mists. 

Yes only Kelsier or another Mistborn might be able to do this.

[Pathfinder]

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

Not really.  Three Fullborn less strong should do the job.

Could be. Still need to burn/tap the attribute to be able to use the powers. 

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

This is possible.  However it currently seems viable.  If you wait until you are certain of victory you will almost certainly loose.

I think part of the disconnect in our conversation is you are treating this as Wax reasoning this and trying this. I am saying out of the world, as in you and me, discussing what we know from the books and WoB, determining if it would work or not. Could Wax get the idea, screw around with it, and find out if it works? Sure! But he hasn't, so we don't know. 

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

Several kilos that we are taking back in time.  I we don't know the method.  Why would you come to that conclusion? 

In order to use those several kilos, they have to either be ingested to be burned, or worn to be tapped. 

[Karger]

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

In order to use those several kilos, they have to either be ingested to be burned, or worn to be tapped. 

We can always reforge it when we get there.  Just bring a large bag of shavings.

17 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Could Wax get the idea, screw around with it, and find out if it works? Sure! But he hasn't, so we don't know. 

A Kandra suggested this to him in the beginning of BoM.  If it does work or even could work Wax would be remiss not to consider the possibility.

18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Could be. Still need to burn/tap the attribute to be able to use the powers. 

Of which we will bring plenty.

[Pathfinder]

11 minutes ago, Karger said:

A Kandra suggested this to him in the beginning of BoM.  If it does work or even could work Wax would be remiss not to consider the possibility.

Sure he could, but he hasn't. So at this point in time on Earth, on October 8th 2019, we don't know. 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Sure he could, but he hasn't. So at this point in time on Earth, on October 8th 2019, we don't know. 

Well Wax does not have access to a full feruchemist so he can't try.

[Pathfinder]

24 minutes ago, Karger said:

Well Wax does not have access to a full feruchemist so he can't try.

Never said he wouldn't try if he had access. Not saying he wouldn't think to. But we cannot assume what the result would be of him trying, because he has not tried, nor have we seen such a result of trying. Theoretically it could possibly work. But it has not occurred yet. Which is why I said on Earth, in the real world, we do not know if it works that way.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Never said he wouldn't try if he had access. Not saying he wouldn't think to. But we cannot assume what the result would be of him trying, because he has not tried, nor have we seen such a result of trying. Theoretically it could possibly work. But it has not occurred yet. Which is why I said on Earth, in the real world, we do not know if it works that way.

What?  Wax knows X is supported by theoretical evidence.  X would be a quit fix to a vital mission.  Wax would try X.  X may not succeed for some reason but that does not mean that it is not currently a viable option.

[Pathfinder]

16 hours ago, Karger said:

What?  Wax knows X is supported by theoretical evidence.  X would be a quit fix to a vital mission.  Wax would try X.  X may not succeed for some reason but that does not mean that it is not currently a viable option.

I will try one last time and then leave this be. I am not debating what Wax hypothetically would or would not do. I am sure if the scenario presented itself as you have, he would try. What I am saying is we do not know what the result would be because we do not know if it works that way or not. It has not been attempted. 

 

edit: I will put it another way. Sure Wax would try it. So what is the result? Can you reference to me the book and page number where Wax attempted it, and it worked? Can you show me what happened when it occurred in the novels?

 

edit2: and just to head the next response off at the pass, I am not saying the theory does not have merit. I am not saying it is not plausible. I am not saying it is not possible. 

Edited October 9, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

9 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

What I am saying is we do not know what the result would be because we do not know if it works that way or not. It has not been attempted. 

Ok fine.

9 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So what is the result?

I don't know.  Given the information we currently have I like Wax would assume a success however as you have said until it is actually attempted we won't know.

9 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

edit2: and just to head the next response off at the pass, I am not saying the theory does not have merit. I am not saying it is not plausible. I am not saying it is not possible. 

Sure.  I can except that.  Sorry if I was to dense to get it earlier.

[Stefano]

On 7/10/2019 at 10:10 PM, Karger said:

Ohh I had a discussion with a friend that gives me a quick fix for this problem easy.  According to Vendell(BoM chapter three) if you blank your identity you can produce a metalmind that anyone can use.  All you need is aluminum which the team can get or bring with them.  Saze blanks his identity and stores several attributes including his investiture(I don't know if era 1 could get any nicrosil but era two can bring so it does not matter).  Vin or Kelsier burns this metal turning themselves into a fullborn and then they repeat the prossess turning everyone on the team into a fullborn.  Then it is just team of fullborn against TLR and we can have an atium burning F speed run to grab his bracers turning him into an old man which Vin then stabs.  Problem solved.

I specified "at the end of alloy of law" just to avoid unlocked metalminds, bands etc to make it an interesting fight.

 

Of course kel+wax crew would win with 2nd era tech and knowloedge, and 2 full mistborn and a full feruchemist among them.

[Karger]

29 minutes ago, Stefano said:

I specified "at the end of alloy of law" just to avoid unlocked metalminds, bands etc to make it an interesting fight.

 

Of course kel+wax crew would win with 2nd era tech and knowloedge, and 2 full mistborn and a full feruchemist among them.

In that case either duraluminum or aluminum bullets are your best options IMO.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Karger