Ixthos

I think I know the remaining six shard names - and I can justify why

28 posts in this topic

I will go into further detail in a later post, but for now, please tell me your opinion on this assessment:

Shards.thumb.png.35add62e3829278b891f592942a41bcb.png

(Note: my initial analysis can be found here.)

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I really like the subdivisions you used as a way to categorize Shards, it fits well with what we already know.

I do however have some difficulties with Vengeance and Crafting.

1) Vengeance :

Vengeance fits well its spot but given the description of his goals and methods (on which I agree) there is no way he wouldn't intervene on Odium's business, which leave a few possibilities :
- Vengeance is already dead
- Vengeance is not the concept of that Shard
- Vengeance is intervening but we are lacking information on how/where

2) Crafting :

Crafting feels off to me, it doesn't fit as well as the others. Your separation would point toward a concept related to freedom but oriented toward others rather than oneself. The first thing that came to mind to me would be something like Education, but that's something I consider part of Cultivation. I'll see in the detailing how you reach Crafting but that's my first assessment.

 

Also, the Survival-oriented Shard would probably be Pragmatism if I was to guess

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My only issue with Vengeance is that it seems like a combination of two Shards, perhaps Odium and Honor.

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Very impressive! I think you must be broadly on the right path, that like the table of Allomancy, there four quadrants and four "dimensions" driving the definition/division of the sixteen Shards.

What little guidance we have on this is that Brandon has said that not all Shards have an "diametric opposite" pairing like Preservation and Ruin did, and that if he were given the choice, he'd most like to take up "Ingenuity", a Shard we have not yet seen. Though on your chart, that could simply be another name or aspect of "Crafting".

I would adjust or rename Vengeance, Pragmatism, and Dreams.

Vengeance, per your terminology, represents ordered goals/chaotic methods, plus primary concern for "how you should do it" (in execution); Pragmatism, on the other hand, is ordered goals/chaotic methods, concerned with "how you should think (about) it". But it seems to me they should be reversed, then? Wouldn't "Pragmatism" be about the doing not the thinking (motivating), while Vengeance would be all about the motivation?

Also, "Vengeance" generally implies a reaction to something preceding it as a reaction, which would seem to be strange as a Shardic Intent. Nobody seeks vengeance "out of the box", one must first be wronged to be consumed by the need to set it right.

And "Dreams" or "Dreaming" doesn't feel to me like the right way to capture something with "ordered methods".

That said, I can't immediately think of any better terms/names to slot into there.

Edited by robardin
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Thanks everyone :-) you are all making good points and I might need to update this chart, as well as expand on my reasoning.

 

@Myuken I think, due to how Odium is going about doing things, that if Vengeance is a shard, and if Vengeance isn't dead or trapped in some manner, that Odium isn't unbalancing anything - after all, Odium can argue that what he is doing is punishing the other shards, so in a sense he is doing what Vengeance would try to do, which might be a problem but a slightly different one. Still, I do think some shards can have overlap in what they value or try to achieve, like Vin as Preservation valuing that life grows, which would match Cultivation.

As for Crafting, that probably isn't the right name, but it mainly is as a counter of Ambition - Ambition, in a sense, is about doing anything to get ahead, while Crafting, or Creating/Creativity, or perhaps Altruism (though that might be too similar to Devotion) would focus on using structured approaches to either help others or to make things that are then free to do their own, similar to Cultivation only while Cultivation is about shaping something to help it grow, Crafting, etc., would be about making something new - in a sense to match the idea of the idea of a diety which makes things.

 

@Jaywalk I actually intend to address that later on, but basically I think that Vengeance and Honour together represent the concept of Justice - Vengeance tied to a code - and Honour and Preservation together tie to the concept of Protection - Preserving according to a code. I think all the Knights are actually a combination of Honours ideal pointing at - not a part of, put an arrow towards the idea - the other shards, or at least ten of them. Vengeance might not be the exact right name, but basically the idea of someone who passionless seeks to keep balance, whose only interest is in making sure wrongs are righted not because they care that what is right is no longer the base, but because there shouldn't be any wrongs - someone trying to iron out wrinkles without caring, it's just a job, while Odium is the anger that there are wrinkles.

 

@robardin I agree they aren't all diametrically opposite, or aren't all diametrically opposite, though I think part of that is because some represent concepts which typically are considered opposites but which can function together - Wisdom and Odium, for example, can be combined with a wise heart. Crafting is a slightly problematic name, but an idea similar to it is I think one of them.

I agree these might not be the exact names, but I think they are close to the idea - Vengeance might best be considered Balance, or like a police officer whose mission is to keep an eye on everyone and immediately jump on anyone who tries to break the rules.

Dreams and Pragmatism might need to swap places, but I think they fit the same quadrant as Wisdom and Odium, in that they are approaches to the nature of goals, either changing them or reaching for ever greater ones. Perhaps it would be better to think then of Dreams as approaching a free-form goal the right way, letting your mind sore and hold on to the right ideas, a positive upwards outlook that is directed towards noble goals while not caring where those goals lead, for example. Pragmatism meanwhile looks at how things are and wants to be grounded, so the approach adapts to the situation but remains fixed with the eyes on the ground, and so both fit in as distinct but similar to Wisdom and Odium, who are head and heart respectively, with Wisdom and Dreams striving for the future, and Pragmatism and Odium fixed on the now.

I understand :-) I might not have the exact names, but I think this general approach and stance might be the right form, and I appreciate your feedback :-D

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4 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

I agree these might not be the exact names, but I think they are close to the idea - Vengeance might best be considered Balance, or like a police officer whose mission is to keep an eye on everyone and immediately jump on anyone who tries to break the rules.

Here's another thing to consider: I just remembered another WoB about as-yet-unknown Shards: one of them "just wants to hide and survive". 

Perhaps this is the one you've put into either the "Vengeance" or the "Pragmatism" bucket: Ordered Goals / chaotic methods, and either concerned with the "how you should think about it" or "how you should do it".

Like maybe instead of "Vengeance", the "goal" is not "balance" but "survival (by any means necessary)", and the "how to think about it" is "Oh no oh no, I really don't wanna die". The Shard of Survival, of Self-Preservation. Who does not lilke the name Cowardice, though s/he would admit if confronted with it, "it has a certain bite."

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9 minutes ago, robardin said:

Here's another thing to consider: I just remembered another WoB about as-yet-unknown Shards: one of them "just wants to hide and survive". 

Perhaps this is the one you've put into either the "Vengeance" or the "Pragmatism" bucket: Ordered Goals / chaotic methods, and either concerned with the "how you should think about it" or "how you should do it".

Like maybe instead of "Vengeance", the "goal" is not "balance" but "survival (by any means necessary)", and the "how to think about it" is "Oh no oh no, I really don't wanna die". The Shard of Survival, of Self-Preservation. Who does not lilke the name Cowardice, though s/he would admit if confronted with it, "it has a certain bite."

I like that :-) my own theory was either Pragmatism (as @Myuken said) or Wisdom, but that works also

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1 minute ago, Ixthos said:

I like that :-) my own theory was either Pragmatism (as @Myuken said) or Wisdom, but that works also

Haha, I just thought of something else, too: a putative Shard of Cowardice might well grant among the most powerful magic abilities in the Cosmere!

Think about it. The most powerful and portable magic systems we've seen so far are end-positive, and come from Preservation (Allomancy) and Endowment (Awakening). This has to do with which Shardic Intents end up having "end-positive" goals.

To shore up, to Preserve against entropy, requires constant buttressing on the part of Preservation, which is why Allomancy is end-positive.

To Endow means to give away, with a net positive to the recipient. Thus, native Nalthians' one innate Breath means they come "from the factory" with slightly but impactfully more Investiture than a baseline Cosmere human would (I guess the same is true of a Natural Born Allomancer), and the mechanics of the magic system involve accumulating the Investiture into a bigger and bigger ball to do useful things (like the Endowment of some well-known Universities).

Honor's magic system is ultimately end-neutral: access to it requires an oath, Surgebinding at the cost of swearing Ideals or an Oathpact, but external fueling with Stormlight. This is different from burning metals for Allomancy, where the "burning" of a metal is opening a Spiritual conduit for accessing a "filtered expression of the power of Preservation", and the metal itself is ordinary, non-Invested metal. With Surgebinding, the Stormlight drawn in is the Investiture that is then pushed through the "filter" of the Surges that the spren bond enables - but on its own, the bond does not grant anything except chit-chat with a sentient idea (at least not until the Third Ideal, which grants access to the innate Investiture of that spren in the physical form of a Blade).

Cultivation's "Old Magic" requires a balanced "pruning". To get new growth in direction/capacity X, there must be an equal snipping-off of growth already gained in Y. To the recipient the X/Y balance may not be obvious, but Cultivation's measuring system is unknown, possibly capricious (especially when the deal is determined by a spren trying to learn about humans).

Devotion's power of AonDor is ridiculously OP, but highly location-specific ("only works well in or close to the city of Elantris!"), thanks to Odium having crammed most of the Shardic power into the Cognitive Realm around Sel. That seems to imply that without that CR-based limitation, with a living Shard of Devotion, one with AonDor would be able to draw Aons at will, anywhere, any time, as long as she liked you enough (what the Shaod now represents, with an unknown selection mechanism functioning on autopilot). Now THAT'S Devotion for ya!

Well, what kind of magic system would happen due to a Shardic Intent of "do whatever you want, just leave me alone/alive?" Maybe the power would be inversely proportional to the fear or risk involved, and the accessing of the power would be tied to a "security object" like Linus' blanket from "Peanuts".

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@robardin Indeed :-P The shard whose vessel is named Rincewind ... and those who use it are Wizzards :-P

 

Though I think for Endowment part of her system is also about taking things back, so while it does tend to accumulate, Returned, Lifeless, and of course Nightblood, exist as a mechanism to drain excess gifts away - each birth adds to the system, but death doesn't always remove it, so a mechanism is needed to make sure that while it does circulate, and does form local high concentrations, it also doesn't build up and destabilise what she has.

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Just a few ideas for alternate names that sound a bit more shardy. They're not all exact parallels to the names you listed, but they're thematically similar

Dreams - Inspiration

I feel like "Inspiration" captures the same idea of desires/goals coming from your heart that "Dreams" does. It also touches on lofty ideals in that by achieving them, you in turn become an Inspiration to others. It's not an exact fit, but the closest I could think of that sounds like a shard.

Crafting - Ingenuity

I have to agree with @robardin on this one. Considering the WoBs we have (listed below), which I'll admit aren't a 100% confirmation, I think Ingenuity should be included as a likely shard, and it fits the idea of crafting almost perfectly.

Quote

Questioner

If you were entrusted with a Shard of Adonalsium, which Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Ummm... Heh heh heh... maybe Ingenuity. 

Sofia signing (March 28, 2017)
Quote

Chaos

Is Ingenuity a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Umm... *long pause* Maybe. *smiles slyly*

MisCon 2018 (May 26, 2018)

Mercy - Absolution

I don't have a big problem with Mercy, it just doesn't seem exactly like a shard's name. Most of the shardic intents are separated from being "good" or "bad." Devotion is the biggest example. Instead of choosing "compassion" or "love," Brandon chose a name that feels more impersonal, more deific in the traditional Greek or Roman sense. And Devotion by no means is necessarily a good thing. We think of it as such, but as a concept its separated from feelings. So to follow the pattern set by the other shard's names, I think you should use a synonym for Mercy that doesn't feel as kind or end-positive.

As for your other names, I think they're pretty good. Personally, I like the sound of Retribution (which you listed) instead of Vengeance. That's just personal taste though. Wisdom seems good, and while there might be a better word than Pragmatism, I can't think of any.

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I think Adversity makes lots of sense as a Shard -- mostly because of the storytelling element where Brandon likes to show that "good" Shards can be worse than the "bad" ones, which might not be as bad as expected.

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I'd like to make a series of posts which outline what I think this structure means for the intents of the shards, and how they relate and are distinct, as well as what they are lacking. So I would like to make, over a while, nine posts, consisting of four posts covering the "WHAT you should DO", "HOW you should DO IT", etc. blocks - with this being the first of those - followed by four covering the ORDER, the right method, etc. blocks, and a final post drawing that all and uniting them. Each post also should help explain how I think different blocks tie together, so this post will cover some of how the "WHAT you should DO" i.e. the [[your impact on the world]] block's members interact with each other, and the next post of this type would be the "HOW you should DO IT" i.e. the [[relation to others block]] interacts with both itself and the former block.

 

As always this is speculation, but I think it fits, so please, give me your feedback :-)

 

I think this block is probably the easiest to understand if - and again I repeat this is all speculation ;-) - these shards are all members, and match the ideas I've outlined, as this block is the only complete block of its kind (the other complete block an orthogonal type, which is the "CHAOS, any method" block), and it is the block that directly describes how one should use ones power to affect the world. In short, it is the block about how the powers should be used to cause the world to change over time.

 

In this sense, ORDER is the idea of restriction and restraint, containment, and a guided outcome. In short, the two ORDER members are about maintaining control, for ones own good and for others, and about keeping the system stable. There are, however, two different approaches to this.

  • The shard focused on maintaining order the right way, Preservation, is all about slowing things down, freezing a stable, static moment. It is the shard of a museum, of statues, the present being so valuable it cannot be allowed to change for risk of losing everything. The only true stability is to prevent things from changing, and to shore up anything that breaks down - give of yourself only so as to prevent loss. Everything is precious, so don't let it change - it is too important to risk change destroying it. For this, even breaking something else is too much - you can't sacrifice one thing to preserve another, for that means something has changed, and it is just as valuable as that which was it was destroyed to preserve. Without a mind or other virtues, Preservation cannot triage, and can only sacrifice from itself - others are more valuable than itself.
    (Preservation is, in a sense, the straight, flat line - time passes, but the Y value doesn't change at all. The pole at the origin, the system with no dynamism at all)
  • Endowment, however, is about bumping the system - it is stability at any cost, using any method? Not exactly - it is about engaging with the system, letting it wobble and move, but still it must remain under control. Let things change, yes, but only a little, and only here and there. Endowment, despite having flexible methods, is still about control, and even the largest spike must be smoothed out eventually, only to return later, the system dynamic and changing, yet still bound - there are limits it cannot cross, but the flexibility is has ... it is freedom to walk within a circle, to any point in that circle, but never to step outside it. To that end, Endowment not only adds to the system, actively giving of itself, but also takes things away, preventing the build up of gifts from destroying the careful balance. Endowment wants you to have, but not to have too much. The system cannot be permitted to let the gifts become a seed for something greater - that would break the stability.
    (Endowment is, in a sense, a sine wave, or any type of wave - time passes, things flux, but in the end they return to normal. The two poles, complex conjugates, on the Y-axis, the system critically stable)

 

On the flip side are the two CHAOS shards, who are not happy with stability. The system must change, must grow, must decay! What good is it if in the end nothing ever changes? Things must become new! And again, this change takes two different forms.

  • Cultivation is about the change that builds, that grows, that becomes more! You start with something, and you help it grow - and grow it must. Cultivation's concern is for things to become more than they were, but, sometimes, to make something more, something must be taken away. A painful memory, a life as a different, violent man, must be removed, for example, though perhaps it will grow back again. Weeds must be pulled if you want the plant to grow, and when the weeds come back perhaps the planet will be strong enough to fight them off. Two branches are growing, but one is blocking the other - cut if off. You might wound it and make it weaker for now, but it will become stronger for the pruning. Disease? Cut it off, and the rot is inhibited. Of course, those are the distasteful parts, the necessary but unpleasant parts of making something grow. What is far better, far more satisfying and beautiful, is to fertilise, to care for, to nurture, and to provide for it what it needs to make a seed become a tree, and a tree a forest. To do this, a structured approach is needed - this is CHAOS done the right way. Ordered methods, using predictable systems, can be used to make something become strong, and once strong, it can then move on, free of your control, to do its own thing. The only time after it has been released into the wild, the only time to turn your attention back to it, once it is free of your control, is if it then - made strong by your efforts - comes back to consume that which you are now tending to.
    (Cultivation is, in a sense, the exponential growth, the line that grows to infinity - time passes, and the system grows without bound. The pole, or pair of poles, on the right hand side, the unstable, positive feedback system)
  • Then there is Ruin. Change, yes, but what good is change if it doesn't remove the old, make way for the new, the new that must then itself die for that which must come? Ruin sees the value in removing the old, the worn, the outdated. Don't keep something if it can be replaced, don't grow something if it can't be removed later. Ruin wants things to wind down, to be used and then discarded. But, sometimes, the best way to cut down something is to first make an axe. Ruin can appreciate that, for all that it is an annoyance. Making one axe will let you chop down many more things, and even making the axe requires destroying the wood and metal's origins. Still, in the end the axe itself should be discarded, though perhaps first used to make something else that is new, and sharper, and can cut down even more things than the axe ... after all, its all about letting things have their time, and then moving on. Everything should come to its end. And the best approach is to throw the system into chaos, so that it can become as decayed as it needs to.
    (Ruin is, in a sense, the exponential decay, the back half of an exponential, always approaching zero but never reaching it. After all, if you reach zero, where do you go? Better to have something left to remove. The pole, or pair of poles, on the left hand side, the stable, negative feedback system)

 

They are similar but different. Preservation and Endowment care for stability at the cost of true, permanent change. Cultivation and Ruin for change, even at the expanse of that stability. Yet both Cultivation and Preservation value what is already there, though one wants to keep it that way - the beauty of potential - and the other wants it to grow - potential fulfilled. Endowment and Ruin would rather that potential remain unfulfilled except as a means for their own goals - Endowment doesn't want there to be anything present which wasn't already given, and Ruin would rather what is present breaks down.

Cultivation is the exact opposite of Endowment, yet not incompatible with it - together, they are the drive to give something to someone and then help them nurture it. Preservation and Ruin can together be a recognition of what should be kept and what should be destroyed in order to keep it. Cultivation and Ruin, together, value change, novelty. Preservation and Endowment together value stability, and history.

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This is the second of nine posts detailing the structure of the shards and explaining how they relate and are distinct, and what they are missing. This covers the second row, the "HOW you DO IT" row, or, in other words, the manner and purpose for other people of ones actions. And that last part is key, because this row, and the one that follows, is about people.

 

This one is a little different from the previous post because unlike the previous, this one makes a much bigger assumption - it adds two unknown shards to the list. The purpose of this post is to show how they fit with the others, and to explain how the others in its row relate both to them and to one another, and to the concept of the row itself, the how and its significance for other people.

 

Beginning with the two shards we know, this will take a slightly different approach than the previous post - there we first talked on ORDER, then the ordered approach to order - and what order and an ordered approach meant in that context - followed by the more chaotic, or unbounded and freeform approach, followed by discussing CHAOS. Here, we will instead start with ordered ORDER, and then chaotic CHAOS, and what they have in common for people, and for method. And they both have in common the idea of THE PEOPLE WHO ARE CLOSE TO YOU, or, perhaps, THE PEOPLE IN A PROPER RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU.

  • Now if you are in the proper relation with someone, there are two different ways of looking at it. This is the first, the ordered order, the rigid rules, the uncaring bond that people can be bound by. Dominion is hierarchy, everyone in their place, and everyone knowing their place. There is no need to move outside of it, no need to challenge its structure - it has been arranged this way so that there is no friction between people, and any problem encountered can be overcome. In the end a community only functions when everyone does their part, knows their place, and some parts are to take orders, some are to give them, and some are to stand between others, receiving commands and giving orders. You don't really have to care about what is happening, so long as the structure is maintained properly any issues encountered in the world will handle themselves, so long as you obey the chain of command. Stepping outside of the chain is unthinkable - you disrupt the system, and the predictable responses will fail. So don't do that. Why would you want to? Remain in unity, the right way, and even if something terrible happens, at least you know where you stand. HOW do you do what must be done? You do it by delegation, obedience, and conformity. Ordered relationships, and doing only what is required of you.
    (Dominion = you behave appropriately to me, either being above and giving ordered, or below and receiving them. I know where you stand, you know where I stand, and lets agree to remain this way, rigid and stationary)
  • Devotion ... to care about others. I don't care who you are, you MATTER. Are you the king? Well I love you, and I am your subject. I will serve you and care for you. But why are you now caring for me? Do ... do you care about my well being? Yes ... yes you do! You don't care that it is beneath you to serve me, a humble peasant! What matters to you is that you see I am sick, and so you tend to me. I am tired, so you take my burden. Yet you are above me in station! Yet you care, and what good is the hierarchy if it doesn't care? Indeed, in the heart - and the significance of this will be clear when Odium is discussed - there is no heirarchy, no set rules of behaviour. Because I love you, I will serve you. Because you love me, I will let you serve me. As the Servant Song says:

    "Brother, Sister, let me serve you / Let me be as Christ to you / Pray that I might have the grace / to let you be my servant too."

    And in this Devotion is shown - HOW do you do what must be done? By putting others, your friends and families, PEOPLE YOU KNOW or are connected to, before yourself, regardless of whether they are above you in station or below, and accept from them that same privilege. Chaotic relationships - no fixed structure - and doing ANYTHING that that person needs.
    (Devotion = you MATTER to me, YOU who I know matter, and so I don't care about what is considered proper protocol, or if this is frowned on by others. I will serve you and love you and work for your good, because nothing matters more than other people, and no people more than those you love)

 

Of course, these two are dynamics which apply to people who have the right relationships with you - people you know, and so can have oblegations towards, or love for. But what about people you don't know, or what about people you know who - UNTHINKABLE - break their relations with you, people you love you hurt you, or people you should obey or who should obey you disobeying or giving unlawful commands? Well, then there are again two responses, two modes.

  • The first approach, Ordered goals, chaotic methods, I am referring to as Vengeance, but that might imply a degree of emotion it doesn't have. Another name might by Payback, Balance, Retribution. BUT NOT JUSTICE - Justice requires a code, and this lacks a code, an approach and restrictions (when Honour is discussed we will see how the Orders of Knights Radiant tie to the shards). This shard is a shard of making sure things get put back the way they should be, and will do ANYTHING to do it - what matters is putting things right - the SYSTEM is what matters, not people, and so whatever it takes to put the system back on track MUST be done. Of course, lacking emotion, and applied to things outside of people - as indeed all of these can also apply to existing systems in the world, machines that should obey or machines that you care for, or institutions and governments or entire nations and peoples, not just individuals - this shard is ulimately dispassionate. Indeed, all the ORDERED goals shards are, while not emotionless, far less prone to outbursts than the CHAOTIC goals shards. This shard is an accountant, balancing the books, or a worker, putting in their shift. The account isn't balanced? Well, track down the problem and fix it, and then move on. Someone broke the law? Well arrest them and go back to your shift. It doesn't matter who you hurt along the way, or the homes you foreclose, the people turned out. The SYSTEM is what matters, and putting things right. HOW do you do what must be done? By putting fixing the system, of making sure it runs smoothly, before the needs and desires of others. No intention to harm them, but no intention of stopping if the are hurt. Ordered relationships, and a chaotic - unrestrained - approach.
    (Vengeance/Retribution = if you break the system, you will be made to pay, either by fixing the relationship or by extracting the price from you, in any way possible - you matter less than the system does, so what does it matter if fixing the system harms you? The system is the only thing that matters)
  • So, what is the second approach? I call it Mercy or Forgiveness, or Compassion. It is the exact opposite of Vengeance, though not incompatible. Mercy focuses on the individual, and their unstructured ways, and applies a simple, restrictive rule: put them first. They hurt you? It doesn't matter - they do. A friend betrayed you? They are only human, or Kandra, or Sleepless, they make mistakes. Forgive them. CHAOTIC goals - their desires and well being are your goals - with a structured approach - overlook and ignore their mistakes. HOW do you approach what must be done? With forgiveness in your heart, and the knowledge that they matter more than the system. Chaotic goals, and a simple rule.
    (Mercy/Compassion = the needs of strangers, or those who have wronged you, are more important than the hurt they inflicted. What does a system matter when compared to PEOPLE?)


And here we can see similarities and differences. Dominion and Devotion look at relationships you have, or which are working right, while Vengeance and Mercy focus on those which have gone wrong. Dominion and Vengeance look at the system and see it as more valuable than a person, Devotion and Mercy look at a person and see something worth even more than that. Dominion and Mercy are fixated on following simple, straightforwards rules, Vengeance and Devotion think that, for what matters, nothing should stand in the way.

 

So then, how does this relate to the "WHAT you should DO" - the way the world should change over time - block? In an interesting manner. Does Preservation value the system more than the individual? Should Endowment give gifts only to those in a proper relationship, or to anyone who needs them? Should Cultivation build up the person before the society, or mature a nation rather than a person? Does Ruin destroy the sick and the tired so as to grant them rest and peace, or go after a nation that has upset the balance? In the end this block asks the questions: 1) does that which is close to you matter more than those far off, and 2) are people more important than institutions? Answering those questions becomes the reason one does what one does, and changes the reason one does what one is doing.

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I think Justice is one. If you’ve read the Threnody novella, you’ll know that Silence says, Justice died long ago when we left home land. And the shades will attack anyone who DRAWS BLOOD.

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1 hour ago, Edgedancer_of_spirits said:

I think Justice is one. If you’ve read the Threnody novella, you’ll know that Silence says, Justice died long ago when we left home land. And the shades will attack anyone who DRAWS BLOOD.

When I initially was drawing up the chart I thought Justice would be one of them, but then I realised the appropriate slot wouldn't match Justice but would instead match Vengeance, as Justice requires acting justly, while Vengeance doesn't care about how you act so long as events are balanced. Justice I think is actually a combination of Honour and Vengeance, as Justice is encoded in Honour, just as Protection is Honour and Preservation. I think all the Knights Radiant actually are pointers at hybrid shards, the properties that if Honour were added to them, other shards would have.

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12 hours ago, Ixthos said:

When I initially was drawing up the chart I thought Justice would be one of them, but then I realised the appropriate slot wouldn't match Justice but would instead match Vengeance, as Justice requires acting justly, while Vengeance doesn't care about how you act so long as events are balanced. Justice I think is actually a combination of Honour and Vengeance, as Justice is encoded in Honour, just as Protection is Honour and Preservation. I think all the Knights Radiant actually are pointers at hybrid shards, the properties that if Honour were added to them, other shards would have.

Since I was bored, after reading this I went with a preliminary brainstorm at what the other shards would have to be in order for a hybrid shard of Honor and them to become like the divine attributes of the Heralds/KR. Bear in mind i did try and logically pair them up based on what adding a "set of rules" to the other shard would do. I'm totally ok with you having something else in mind for the effect of adding Honor's intent to them instead, which would likely change up at least a few...

Prime Spren influences.png

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4 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Since I was bored, after reading this I went with a preliminary brainstorm at what the other shards would have to be in order for a hybrid shard of Honor and them to become like the divine attributes of the Heralds/KR. Bear in mind i did try and logically pair them up based on what adding a "set of rules" to the other shard would do. I'm totally ok with you having something else in mind for the effect of adding Honor's intent to them instead, which would likely change up at least a few...

Prime Spren influences.png

Very well thought out! That is very close to what I am thinking, though I would swap a few of them, such as placing Devotion with the Edgedancers due to Loving, but Cultivation is also a good choice, especially because of the strong association Wyndle implied between that order and Cultivation :-)

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10 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Very well thought out! That is very close to what I am thinking, though I would swap a few of them, such as placing Devotion with the Edgedancers due to Loving, but Cultivation is also a good choice, especially because of the strong association Wyndle implied between that order and Cultivation :-)

I'll be honest I put Cultivation there because the Edgedancers bond with Cultivationspren... but I realize now that's hypocritical because of the Honorspren being paired with Preservation, and the Bondsmiths being paired with Honor.

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2 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

I'll be honest I put Cultivation there because the Edgedancers bond with Cultivationspren... but I realize now that's hypocritical because of the Honorspren being paired with Preservation, and the Bondsmiths being paired with Honor.

I'll probably be doing my take on it in a few days, and when I do I'd appreciate your views on it :-) I think there are some interesting dynamics in the arrangement of the Orders - so in addition to each order being a pointer to a hybrid, I think the top five orders are heavily Honour, the bottom five are - while still heavily Honour - are also strongly Cultivation, and the left hand four orders are slightly Odium, so the Knights represent a rather interesting reference to the Shards.

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This is the third of an intended series of nine posts outlining the relation of the shards.

 

Before I begin, I would just like to clarify something from the previous post, about the nature of the previous four shards outlined. To make a slight correction in that logic, Devotion and Mercy can also apply to groups, companies, governments, etc., and so counting them as people. The contrast between system and people is more one of rules vs individuals or objects – proceeder vs item, and which is more important.

 

Now, on to the “WHAT you should THINK” group. This group covers – in a sense – the motivation behind one's actions, the type of goals one should be thinking on. Unlike the previous group, this consists of three shards that are known. The purpose of this post is to show how they relate to one another, and the missing fourth shard

 

Let us begin again with ORDER, which in this sense is about control – not control in the sense of Dominion, which wanted everyone to fall in line, control of people, but control of one's situation, control as in restrictions.

  • ORDER, the right way – Honour. Honour values restrictions, a code, for if one doesn't restrain oneself one is but an animal. Promises should be kept, agreements held to, and that which is imposed on oneself should be maintained. Honour thus seeks to keep control of oneself, for controlling oneself is the difference between an animal and a thinking being.
    (Honour places obligations and restraints on oneself, for both one's own good, and for the good of others)

  • ORDER, any way – Ambition. Ambition also sees the value of restrictions, but applied to other people, and not to oneself. Do anything you must to achieve your goals, but bind and restrict others so that you can, provided, of course, that it helps you. Chaos and order can both be weapons in the hands of Ambition, for it is chaos used to further the order Ambition wishes to achieve, and order used to bind others to Ambitions goals. Ambition wants an ordered world, with order being defined by Ambition, of course. And Ambition will bind the wills and actions of others if it has to, to achieve that.
    (Ambition sees the value of chaos as a tool in the service of order – its own. Power must be used, and the best use for power is to elevate oneself.)

 

Now let us look at CHAOS, which in this sense is freedom.

  • CHAOS, any way – Autonomy. Autonomy wants to be free to do what it wants. Autonomy also wants you to be free to do what you want. But if what you want is in any way restrictive to Autonomy, then you have just made an enemy. Your freedoms are well and good, and so long as your freedom's don't impact Autonomy you will be protected, but claim anything as your own that Autonomy wants, make a law that restricts the actions of others even if it ultimately is for their good, and Autonomy will turn against you, for your freedom ends as soon as it touches Autonomy's, and Autonomy will not accept any restriction placed upon it.
    (Autonomy holds the right to choose to be the greatest right anything can have, so long as your choice doesn't affect anyone else's options, or its own)

  • CHAOS, the right way – Forging. I say Forging, but it could be one of many possible ideas with this goal: help others. Altruism, Creativity, Sharing, Teaching. This idea isn't restrictive, it places no restraints on others, but it will embrace temporary restrictions on itself so as to improve the lives of others. Forging is in many ways similar to both Endowment and Cultivation, but while they place an emphasis on either controlling the flow of gifts or in simply improving what is there, Forging takes the approach that what really matters is the imparting of skills to others so that they can carry on the process of helping others, and will provide tools for them to do so. (The reason the name was chosen will be explained later, but in retrospect I probably would prefer to call it Teaching or Altruism. For now, however, let's use Forging)
    (Forging wishes to help others to help themselves, to let them choose what they wish to do, and so takes time to make things and impart skills to others to help them do so)

 

Honour and Ambition value control and the placing of obligations, Honour of oneself, Ambition of others, while Autonomy and Forging value freedom, with Autonomy wanting everyone to be free but preferring freedom for oneself, and Forging to make opportunities for freedom for others even if that does entail limited self restriction. Honour is the opposite of Autonomy, for one holds restrictions to be foundational, the other believes restrictions to be both unnecessary and cruel, yet can be combined with the idea of being free to choose what one accepts as a restriction. Ambition will tear down others to build oneself up and to improve its own skills, Forging will give of itself - using its own skills - to help others become more, and can be combined to be willing to do what it takes to help others. Honour and Forging look outwards to what they can do for others, Ambition and Autonomy look inwards to see what can be done for themselves.

 

As these are about how one things, they are fairly easy to reconcile with the first row, with a few trickier ones such as Autonomous Endowment, which gives to others to help them have their own freedoms but also prevents them from restricting others, and Forging Ruin, which will destroy the things that harm others while also tearing down philosophies that fetter their minds, and Ambitious Cultivation, shaping tools to better aid in ones goals. For the second row the combinations become more complex, with again Autonomy acting as a more complex element that doesn't mesh well with Dominion, but does match Vengeance – hunting down those who impinge on other's freedoms – and both Mercy and Devotion – a softer side to Autonomy, trying to help everyone maintain their own freedoms and making isolated havens for those who try to abuse that freedom. A more complete set will God willing be covered in the last of these nine posts.

 

Now, before I complete this entry, there is one other thing to consider. Honour, I think, is a unique shard in many ways, and one of the most significant elements of this is in the Orders of Knight Radiant. As has already been mentioned in this thread, I think each Order is a reference or pointer to another shard, in addition to the internal breakdown of the top five being strongly Honour, bottom five being noticeable Cultivation (while still being Honour), and the left four being slightly Odium.

 

  • Windrunners = Protecting, Leadership = Preservation

    • (also note their similarity to Mistborn, and the essence being associated with clear vapour)

  • Skybreakers = Just, Confidence = Vengeance

  • Dustbringers = Brave, Obedient = Dominion

  • Edgedancers = Loving, Healing = Devotion / Mercy

  • Truthwatchers = Learned, Giving = Forging / Endowment / Cultivation

  • Lightweavers = Creative, Honest = Dreams / Forging

  • Elsecallers = Wise, Careful = Wisdom

  • Willshapers = Resolute, Builder = Ambition

  • Stonewards = Dependable, Resourceful = Forging / Pragmatism

  • Bondsmiths = Pious, Guiding = Honour (self-referential) / Dreams

 

(I might reevaluate some of these again later in the ninth post.)

To this end, I propose that these represent shards that would form if Honour is added to the referenced shard, and so are further useful in helping to define the expected properties, with the true purpose of Preservation being Protection, preserving that which you have an obligation to, and the true nature of Dominion being Obedience, which also allows one to be brave in defying unlawful orders. This is the purpose of those properties once tied to Honour, for Honour already binds them still to their promises.

 

As always I am interested in your thoughts on this topic and your opinions :-)

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This is the fourth of a planned nine posts outlining the model for the remaining six shards, and it is this post which contains the most speculation, as it covers three of those six. Before we go into that though, I wish to note two things. First is that recently Wisdom was revealed to not be a shard name but to still be a fairly accurate description of a shard that might exist. This actually works well with this theory, as these aren't supposed to be the exact names, but rather the descriptions of the shards. This also supports the theory of Honour being a reference for the others with each Order matching a shard (or maybe more, which I will elaborate on later), with the Wisdomesque shard being combined with Honour to form Wisdom with the Elsecaller Order reference. Either way Wisdom will be used as the main name for this shard in this, but alternatives, like Logic, Foresight, etc. could be used also.

Second is that I am working on a revision to the example graphic above with more detail and some corrections based on further thoughts, but this will still take a while. It basically is going to be a summary of all nine posts. However this will take some time to do and I have a lot of high priority things to do.

 

Now, lets look at this last group, the shard which describe "HOW you should THINK". Lets start with Odium.

 

Odium is in the CHAOS section. What does that mean? In typical - and inaccurate - fashion, lets consider the diametrically opposed ideas. That is, the ideas typically considered diametrically opposed: logic, and emotion. So CHAOS in this case is emotion. Note that the bottom of this post will hopefully address an issue with that, but also explain why this breakdown makes sense.

  • Odium is the Chaotic, any method shard. Or in other words, the emotional focused on the immediate future shard. The idea of emotion in the now. How do you feel right now? Are you angry, happy, sad? Then take actions according to those feelings. Strike out now! Or is some patience warranted? Yes ... Yes ... A little patience, a little planning, but let your heart do the thinking. Revenge is a dish best served cold, but maybe room temperature is better. Unless, of course, you stop caring about that because something else is stirring your feelings.
    (Odium - short term heart thinking)
  • Next up in this section is the Chaos, the right way shard. The shard of Dreams, Goals, Desires, Optimism. The world is AMAZING! The world has so many amazing things in it! And the world can be even more than that! Look to the future, what in the future would make your heart sing? What could you do to make that world brighter, better, more complex and beautiful? Don't think small, short term changes. Think of how you can change the future, and the nature of the future, into a world that will make everyone's heart sing. Dream BIG! AND DON'T LET ANYTHING CHANGE YOUR GOALS! Obstacles can be overcome! Just stick to it!
    (Dreams - long term heart thinking)

 

Now then, ORDER in this case would be logic. Thinking things through. And there are, as mentioned, two approaches to that.

  • Short term logical thinking is Pragmatism. Or Logic, Realism. Keep your eyes on the ground. Don't look to the future - the present is already complicated enough. Adapt and change, let your goals be guided by what is happening in the moment.
    (Pragmatism - short term cold logic)
  • Long term logical thinking is Wisdom. Or Logic, Insight, Foresight. The future can be known if you apply enough thought to it, and the future has an ideal state. You should work towards that state, and take the right steps to achieve it. What you feel might seem important, but what you need to focus on is the future, and how to get there even if your heart would rather you do something else.
    (Wisdom - long term cold logic)

 

In this structure Odium and Dreams think with their hearts - they feel, because feeling is living. I think the Chaos shards are all about passion, the chaos, any method shards especially, but that is hopefully going to be covered in the seventh and eighth posts. Odium and Dreams think logic is important, and will use logic, but they won't let them get in the way of the heart, the thing that makes people people. Wisdom and Pragmatism, on the other hand, are about cold, impersonal logic. Feeling is important, yes, but don't let it be what guides you. Do you want to get things done? Then THINK. Odium and Pragmatism are focused on the now, because the now is what matters, and the immediate, controllable future. Adjust what your end goals are if you need to, but do what the present requires. They look at where they are now, and a little ways ahead, because often times your actions will have results in the immediate future that you need to take into account if you want what you want to happen to happen. The distant future - time on the scale of the universe, not planets which to shards are short lived (for the immediate future to a shard is probably longer than the current amount of time that has elapsed since the shattering) - is fickle and will change, so don't try to fully control it now. It will take care of itself. Dreams and Wisdom, however, think the future is what matters. Set your eyes on goals that will change history and the nature of everything! Your actions in the present must touch the future, or why act at all? And don't let difficulties now dissuade you. There will be complications, but the future, and the state you want it, are what matters.

(Now, I can see an objection to Odium being focused on the present, when his power explicitly covers seeing the future to some extent, and Odium himself has a long term plan. My point, however, is that Ruin also allowed seeing the future - and Elend saw very far - but Ruin is mostly focused on decay, and has in theory weaker future sight than Preservation. Ruin has a goal and can think several steps in advance to achieve it, but that goal is still mainly focused on achieving a result in the now. Odium likewise is focused on a goal of destroying the other shards, but that itself is actually an incredably short sighted goal in the present, and his lack of foresight in what his actions have done shows that, while he can see further into the future than Honour - which isn't surprising, as Honour can't change how he will act based on what he knows, so Honour is fundamentally restricted - his goals are still narrow, selfish, and short sighted, its just that to a shard short sighted is still on the range of thousands of years.)

 

As these shards are about how you think they are actually highly compatible with the other shards, and act mainly to determine if they make wise, logical choices, or more emotional ones, as well as if their goals are more short term or long term. Honour and Odium (*Kaladin and Syl and Yixli*) work well as they are the idea of making oaths because you care, and making them rashly and based on the heart. Honour and Wisdom (well, Wisdomesque) make a shard who makes carefully thought out promises. And so Dreams becomes the shard that, with others, directs them to use their powers to build up (or for Ruin, constructively tear down) to make a better, structured, heartfelt feature. And Pragmatism with other shards makes them focus more on the strictest logical structure to their actions, letting the future take care of itself but making sure things are running smoothly in the present.

 

A final note: Emotion and Logic are not incompatible, and it is a mistake to think they are. It is possible to have a wise heart, to feel emotions that your mind supports and agrees with. It is just that often they are in opposition, but that doesn't mean they always are. However, as people often think this way, and the power was very likely split according to human (and other) beliefs, if the people of Yolen thought as I believe they did that chaos is passion, and order is logic, it would make sense that the power would split along those lines.

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As soon as i read the paragraph for how you described the shard of Dreams, I was immediately struck with a desire to see a book series based on that shard's world. My initial thought on what that world would be like has a sort of Nalthian feel to it, with lots of color and pretty patterns, but in a more wild manner, less (but not a complete lack of) structure to it, like walls painted by flicking your brush at it rather than carefully painting a representation of something. I might actually make a whole thread to discuss what the shard of Dreams' world could be like (and most importantly the manifestation of Investiture on it).

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@Halyo_Alex Thanks :-) if you do make a thread on that shard and system please let me know - I would like to read that! I imagine that a shard like that would probably cause the system to have at least a few magic systems due to the nature of differing beliefs about how the world can change :-) I hope you have fun writing that!

Edited by Ixthos
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So, I like your idea of grouping shardic intents with the Radiant orders.  I think it makes sense, that if "Unity" is simply Dalinar's interpretation of "Honor", that the orders would at least be loosely based on the 16 shards of Adonalsium.  However, I have a slight variant on this based on my own ideas for the remaining shards, let me know your thoughts!

  • Windrunners = Protecting, Leadership = Preservation

  • Skybreakers = Just, Confidence    Justice / Ego  (Though I think Vengeance would be a possibility if you combined "Justice" and "Odium".  I also think that Ego serves a nice counterbalance to "Humility" below)

  • Dustbringers = Brave, Obedient = Dominion  

  • Edgedancers = Loving, Healing = Devotion / Cultivation

  • Truthwatchers = Learned, Giving = Scholarship / Endowment (with Scholarship perhaps associated with Silverlight?)

  • Lightweavers = Creative, Honest = Ingenuity

  • Elsecallers = Wise, Careful = Prudence (a variant of wisdom that also fits with this being the survival shard)

  • Willshapers = Resolute, Builder = Ambition

  • Stonewards = Dependable, Resourceful = Autonomy

  • Bondsmiths = Pious, Guiding = Humility / Honor

I couldn't really find a place for either Ruin or Odium, but those two may be so at odds with Honor that perhaps they were left out.

What do you guys think?  This would have the 6 remaining shards be (or some variant of) Justice, Ego, Scholarship, Ingenuity, Prudence and Humility

 

 

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@phoenix2563 Those could work, though they mainly match the Honour idea rather than the grid. Still, those are some good examples. I will repeat my objection to Justice being a shard by itself though, as I think that Justice is Honour and Vengeance, just as Protection is Honour and Preservation.

What would you say is the distinction between Scholarship and Ingenuity in your model? One focused on gaining external information, the other focused on expressing that knowledge through application, as scientists and engineers compliment one another?

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