Hakedohn

How do you want Maya to return to live?

34 posts in this topic

I have thought alot about Adolin and Maya. I will be incredibly upset if Maya remains dead. The question is how we want it to happen.  

 I want to see another spren trying to bond Adolin ( maybe an honor spren), and as they do Maya to wake up for a moment and be seen blocking the other spren from making contact. After I would like her to return to sleep. I think this needs to happen early in Rhythms of War. I think that when she fully returns it should be at the end of Book 4 or book 5. 

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I don't want it to happen at all. Let him keep a blade that's almost conscious if he must, but I have no interest in seeing anyone come back from the dead. I also don't want Adolin to be anything approaching a Knight Radiant.

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The known way is the Kaladin-Syl route, swearing an oath. I don't think it applies to Adolin.

In the last chapter of OB, Dalinar says he wants to find a home to oathbringer. Which makes me believe he will try to revive her using his bondsmith powers. If he is successful, perhaps he can help Maya.

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I would like Dalinar and Adolin to notice Maya's increased sapience. I would like the stormfather to add his usual commentary lol. I would like Dalinar and Adolin to realize there is something missing in Maya, and Dalinar use his investiture infusing powers to restore it helping Adolin fully revive her and bond her. Then I would like to see a concerted effort be put forward to revive the other shardblades, and the pain of betrayal from the recreance be slowly healed. 

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You know what I realized? we don't know what happens to the matching Shardplate that belonged to Maya's Radiant. So imagine Adolin waking up Maya, and suddenly across the continent, some Shardbearer is fighting the Singers or whatever, and his Plate just dissolves.

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On 9/28/2019 at 8:33 AM, Ahriman said:

I don't want it to happen at all. Let him keep a blade that's almost conscious if he must, but I have no interest in seeing anyone come back from the dead. I also don't want Adolin to be anything approaching a Knight Radiant.

Spren never truly die, they just kind of of forget themselves.

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I want the revival to be a culmination of a character arc for Adolin involving his relationship with Dalinar and his society. We've seen him trying to be what other people think he should be, I want him to discover what he wants to be.

I also don't want Dalinar's bondsmith powers to get involved because I want it to be fundamentally Adolin's show, not Dalinar's. Let Adolin have his own arc.

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2 hours ago, MountainKing said:

Spren never truly die, they just kind of of forget themselves.

Yeah, I think the Shadesmar scenes showed that pretty well, and I doubt they would have been included if they weren't pertinent. Maya isn't "dead". She's like a zombie, wandering aimlessly, forgetting who and what she is. But the screaming alone is enough to show that the "dead eyes" aren't truly dead. I really like the idea of seeing Bondsmith power in action through the healing of Maya, allowing them to bond, and then building a coalition and finding allies by making amends for the recreance, not just apologizing for it. That's very much in line with the whole "taking responsibility" theme, I'd say.

I do want to say that I am sympathetic to @Ahriman in that we have few characters who are not Radiant, so it would be nice for some to remain. But then again, Brandon has said that spren bonds are more likely when others have occurred nearby, so maybe it's to be expected.

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4 hours ago, MountainKing said:

Spren never truly die, they just kind of of forget themselves.

I know, but it would still essentially be resurrection, which I don't have much patience for in fiction.

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7 minutes ago, Ahriman said:

I know, but it would still essentially be resurrection, which I don't have much patience for in fiction.

Except that the resurrection of dead orders, ideals, etc., is basically the underlying theme for a lot of the elements of Stormlight Archives... With the point being that these things, all along, had only been mostly dead.

I was only as dead as your oaths.

If the idea of a spren reviving through means other than their original Radiant recommitting to their Ideals is eye-rolling instead of intriguing, then I'm sorry' nothing personal, but I wish you much ocular rotation in the next few books!

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Having already bonded Maya as a dead blade, I want to see her revived on the current course. She revives, bonded to Adolin, yet he has spoken no oaths. Since the process was done in reverse with no oaths, it will be a whole new thing entirely. Bonded spren, but not a KR. A new kind of bond. 

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5 hours ago, robardin said:

Except that the resurrection of dead orders, ideals, etc., is basically the underlying theme for a lot of the elements of Stormlight Archives... With the point being that these things, all along, had only been mostly dead.

I was only as dead as your oaths.

If the idea of a spren reviving through means other than their original Radiant recommitting to their Ideals is eye-rolling instead of intriguing, then I'm sorry' nothing personal, but I wish you much ocular rotation in the next few books!

I don't mind rebuilding an order or ideal, but I really am tired of people, entities, whatever you want to call them not staying dead. I don't think it's entirely about resurrecting the old ways though, this is a world that has made too much progress for that to be possible. Things are going to change, and I expect that even if they take the old names and something of the structure, they will be more something new than they will be the old orders. I'd be surprised if Sanderson played the old fantasy trope of everything ancient being better, especially since he's had Taln point out that giving Roshar time to progress and build is imporant. But this has gotten pretty far off topic. In regards to dead spren, Sanderson will (and should) do what he wants and I'll enjoy most of what he does regardless.

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I hate to be a party pooper but I don't think we will see a resurrection of Maya (I personly want to see Adolin as a radiant but im kinda worried we won't see it) this quote from Brandon is the main reason why. I think Adolin just has plate and blade that came from the same radiant. 

Rebeca

What would happen differently if a person found a Shardblade and Shardplate that belongs to the same Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

That is an excellent question. It happened way more in the past than it happens now, but certain Blades and Plates are historically kind of linked together. If you were knowing to look for a difference, you would notice a slight difference, mostly if you could speak to or sense the Sword, but it wouldn’t have a very big mechanical difference, if that makes sense.

I don't want this to be the case with Adolin but I think it is.

it is also possible that because of this he will be able to bring back Maya.

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While physically in Shadesmar, Azure or Vasher gives Maya a Breath, which acts as an investiture graft to heal the damage to her spiritweb.  Not even sure that would work, but if we're talking about wishful thinking, that's my Maya wish.  

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Posted (edited)

51 minutes ago, Quantus said:

While physically in Shadesmar, Azure or Vasher gives Maya a Breath, which acts as an investiture graft to heal the damage to her spiritweb.  Not even sure that would work, but if we're talking about wishful thinking, that's my Maya wish.  

It seems a breath is not enough investiture to get through the natural resistance of a heavily invested entity like a spren/shardblade as per WoB. Though interesting thought! The reason why I feel a bondsmith is different is because they seem to be able to jump the connection hoop and can enhance the surgebinding of other radiants. That coupled with Dalinar being able to manifest a perpendicularity, I feel satisfied the need for a massive infusion of investiture, coupled with the capacity to jump the hurtle of connection. 

 

 

Questioner

Can you awaken a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

Can you Awaken a Shardblade? A Shardblade would already be defined as Awakened, by the magic systems.

Questioner

And what about the Plate?

Brandon Sanderson

Plate would already be defined as probably too heavily Invested to Awaken because it already is.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

 

 

Questioner

So is it possible to Awaken a Shardblade? That's the question-- that's my question for you.

Brandon Sanderson

Um... With the magic system of Awakening, you mean?

Questioner

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

So, all forms of Investiture strongly resist other forms of Investiture.

Questioner

Makes sense.

Brandon Sanderson

*brief interruption* Nightblood is essentially an Awakened... Trying to do that.

Questioner

'Cause he shows up in Words of Radiance, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. So, it-- let's just say it'd be very, very hard. Because it's like saying, "Can-- I want to turn on a lightbulb that's been turned on." Yes, you can... maybe... I don't know what that even means. It's already Invested. It's already Awakened.

Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016)

 

 

 

 

Questioner

If you were to try and Awaken a dead Shardblade with Awakening, like you can with a metal sword, would that be possible, or what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson

That would probably not work. Not probably. That would just not work.

Orem signing (Dec. 21, 2017) Edited by Pathfinder
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9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

It seems a breath is not enough investiture to get through the natural resistance of a heavily invested entity like a spren/shardblade as per WoB. Though interesting thought! The reason why I feel a bondsmith is different is because they seem to be able to jump the connection hoop and can enhance the surgebinding of other radiants. That coupled with Dalinar being able to manifest a perpendicularity, I feel satisfied the need for a massive infusion of investiture, coupled with the capacity to jump the hurtle of connection. 

 

Those are all relating to an attempt to awaken a Shardblade itself (ie a chunk of god-metal that exists in the Physical Realm). 

he idea here is based on the way Hemalurgy is believed to operate differently for Spren in Shadesmar vs the Physcial Realm, how they can only be subjected to hemalurgic spikes if used on their 'real' form in Shadesmar.  Assuming something similar would happen here, a breath were granted directly to the actual deadeye would not be an act of Awakening, or at least not an act of attempting to awaken a godmetal (which is extra difficult from both the 'god' and the 'metal' parts of that), it would something be closer (though I assume not identical) to awakening a Lifeless.  

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Posted (edited)

Ahriman

Hmm I have not even thought of that as a possibility. I like death being a real thing but kinda like the idea of her coming back.

 

Edited by Hakedohn
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Posted (edited)

17 hours ago, Quantus said:

Those are all relating to an attempt to awaken a Shardblade itself (ie a chunk of god-metal that exists in the Physical Realm). 

he idea here is based on the way Hemalurgy is believed to operate differently for Spren in Shadesmar vs the Physcial Realm, how they can only be subjected to hemalurgic spikes if used on their 'real' form in Shadesmar.  Assuming something similar would happen here, a breath were granted directly to the actual deadeye would not be an act of Awakening, or at least not an act of attempting to awaken a godmetal (which is extra difficult from both the 'god' and the 'metal' parts of that), it would something be closer (though I assume not identical) to awakening a Lifeless.  

So first, to be clear, I do not want you thinking I am trying to disprove your theory or say you are wrong. Just trying to add information to work within your theory. I do wish you luck with it. The reason why hemalurgy is different in the physical vs the cognitive for spren, is hemalurgy requires flowing blood. In the physical the spren do not have that. In the cognitive, the WoB implies they do. So it isn't so much that hemalurgy only works on spren because it is the cognitive realm. It is hemalurgy only works on spren when they are in a form that has "flowing blood" for the spike to work on. I will add the WoB in an edit when I pull it up. Also I believe there is a WoB regarding doing to a shardblade what is done to a lifeless, and Brandon gave the same response. I will pull that one up as well. 

 

Mr. Suit

Can spren - like Syl - be pierced by hemalurgic spike? Will it give some effect?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. A spren can be pierced by Invested metal…

Oversleep

Could it be spiked?

Brandon Sanderson

Could a spike be used to give abilities to spren? That’s not going to work really well.

Oversleep

Could you steal from a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you could steal the Investiture of a spren. Any Investiture can be used in a spike if you know what you’re doing. It’s actually not that hard to use one on a spren.

Oversleep

Because I thought you said Hemalurgy needs moving blood.

Brandon Sanderson

It needs, uh, yeah… there are places where spren have more physical form, more tangible form.

Questioner

Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

No, no, no, not Roshar.

Questioner

The Cognitive Realm on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, if you go to the Cognitive Realm on Roshar the spren act differently than they do.

Oversleep

So you could spike in the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah I’ll leave a RAFO with you on that. That’s your fifth one. So there are ways to get any Investiture into Hemalurgy if you know what you’re doing. But yeah this is not something that would be a common use for Hemalurgy. Let’s just say that.

Oversleep

We do not concern ourselves with common uses.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, I know you don’t. But yeah Hemalurgy, when you’re spiking into somebody you… you’ll see when we get around to it.

Kraków signing (March 21, 2017)

 

 

Looks like the WoBs I was thinking of regardless lifeless was regarding turning someone killed by a shardblade into a lifeless.

Edited by Pathfinder
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1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

So first, to be clear, I do not want you thinking I am trying to disprove your theory or say you are wrong. Just trying to add information to work within your theory. I do wish you luck with it.

No worries at all.  This is still very much just a "Wouldnt it be neat" sort of theory, at best, and it's likely one WOB away form being entirely sunk.  I welcome the added information, disproving this sort of theory is just as useful as proving it.

 

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

The reason why hemalurgy is different in the physical vs the cognitive for spren, is hemalurgy requires flowing blood. In the physical the spren do not have that. In the cognitive, the WoB implies they do. So it isn't so much that hemalurgy only works on spren because it is the cognitive realm. It is hemalurgy only works on spren when they are in a form that has "flowing blood" for the spike to work on. I will add the WoB in an edit when I pull it up. Also I believe there is a WoB regarding doing to a shardblade what is done to a lifeless, and Brandon gave the same response. I will pull that one up as well. 

[WOB snipped for length]

Looks like the WoBs I was thinking of regardless lifeless was regarding turning someone killed by a shardblade into a lifeless.

That's actually the core of this theory. The Idea is that if spren more closely resemble a mortal/human/etc while in Shadesmar for the purposes of Hemalurgy, the same might be the case for Breaths.  At the very least the Difficulty in Awakening Metal should not be a problem, and potentially they would not be considered too Invested either (any more than being too Invested would prevent you from gaining more breaths and/or heightening).  Meanwhile, Breaths are specifically an investiture that is defined as a counterfeit soul that likes to stick to things more than most. So, if the theory is true then I could see it happening in one of a couple possible ways:

  1. Perhaps you could Awaken the Deadeye in the same general process of Awakening a Lifeless
  2. Perhaps you could grant the Deadeye a bunch of Breaths directly, and their Spiritual Damage would be healed the way a human with Heightenings would
  3. Perhaps slapping a Counterfeit Soul made of Investiture onto a being that is already made of Investiture will graft on the missing Spiritweb functionality that was damaged by the Recreance, separate of any typical uses of the breaths.  

 

That is, I should point out, a whole lot of "If".  There are tons of ways this might not work.  The deadeye might not be dead enough to be made into a lifeless.  They might not be humanly trans-realmic enough to hold Breath and Gain Heightenings at all.  Being an entity of pure Investiture (and from a different shard, no less) might prevent all of this for various interference issues.  All other things being equal, it should be easier to use a Breath on a being that is (in shadesmar) flesh and blood as compared to anything made of metal and especially a godmetal.  

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2 hours ago, Quantus said:

No worries at all.  This is still very much just a "Wouldnt it be neat" sort of theory, at best, and it's likely one WOB away form being entirely sunk.  I welcome the added information, disproving this sort of theory is just as useful as proving it.

Ah good, I am glad you understand my intentions.  

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

That's actually the core of this theory. The Idea is that if spren more closely resemble a mortal/human/etc while in Shadesmar for the purposes of Hemalurgy, the same might be the case for Breaths.  At the very least the Difficulty in Awakening Metal should not be a problem, and potentially they would not be considered too Invested either (any more than being too Invested would prevent you from gaining more breaths and/or heightening).  Meanwhile, Breaths are specifically an investiture that is defined as a counterfeit soul that likes to stick to things more than most. So, if the theory is true then I could see it happening in one of a couple possible ways:

  1. Perhaps you could Awaken the Deadeye in the same general process of Awakening a Lifeless
  2. Perhaps you could grant the Deadeye a bunch of Breaths directly, and their Spiritual Damage would be healed the way a human with Heightenings would
  3. Perhaps slapping a Counterfeit Soul made of Investiture onto a being that is already made of Investiture will graft on the missing Spiritweb functionality that was damaged by the Recreance, separate of any typical uses of the breaths.  

 

That is, I should point out, a whole lot of "If".  There are tons of ways this might not work.  The deadeye might not be dead enough to be made into a lifeless.  They might not be humanly trans-realmic enough to hold Breath and Gain Heightenings at all.  Being an entity of pure Investiture (and from a different shard, no less) might prevent all of this for various interference issues.  All other things being equal, it should be easier to use a Breath on a being that is (in shadesmar) flesh and blood as compared to anything made of metal and especially a godmetal.  

The same WoB I posted regarding the blood, mentions this part:

 

Brandon Sanderson

Could a spike be used to give abilities to spren? That’s not going to work really well.

 

Now that is specifically regarding spiking, so could have no connection, but I feel what is causing the issue, is with how heavily invested the spren is. Just like when people say can a mistborn become a radiant, Brandon says yes, but that there is already investiture in those cracks, so it is going to be harder. So I read that portion as the same with breaths. Trying to give breath to a spren, regardless whether on the physical or the cognitive, would run into the same problems. There is another WoB on awakening that mentions how the more damaged a lifeless is, the more breath is required to give it that sense of being "as it was", leading up to if it was just a skeleton, you might as well just awaken cloth and wood (his words). So you may need the godking's hoard of breaths to do what you are positing. I just think a bondsmith can dodge that issue because they can manipulate connection, and investiture directly (it appears to me at least). 

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38 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Ah good, I am glad you understand my intentions.  

The same WoB I posted regarding the blood, mentions this part:

 

Quote

 

Brandon Sanderson

Could a spike be used to give abilities to spren? That’s not going to work really well.

 

 

Now that is specifically regarding spiking, so could have no connection, but I feel what is causing the issue, is with how heavily invested the spren is. Just like when people say can a mistborn become a radiant, Brandon says yes, but that there is already investiture in those cracks, so it is going to be harder. So I read that portion as the same with breaths. Trying to give breath to a spren, regardless whether on the physical or the cognitive, would run into the same problems. There is another WoB on awakening that mentions how the more damaged a lifeless is, the more breath is required to give it that sense of being "as it was", leading up to if it was just a skeleton, you might as well just awaken cloth and wood (his words). So you may need the godking's hoard of breaths to do what you are positing. I just think a bondsmith can dodge that issue because they can manipulate connection, and investiture directly (it appears to me at least). 

I could see that interpretation, though I could also see that as an issue with Spiking and/or with Hemaurgy specifically, similar to how Spiking Hoid would supposedly cause unforseen oddities even though he's compatible with most of the other magic systems.  But that becomes another unknown: if the spiritweb is too different from a standard human's to be able to reliably spike an ability into it  but not too different to be unable to spike their side of the Nahel Bond away, is there a similar line where the Spiritweb is too different from human for this whole "counterfeit Soul" thing to matter?

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Posted (edited)

6 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I could see that interpretation, though I could also see that as an issue with Spiking and/or with Hemaurgy specifically, similar to how Spiking Hoid would supposedly cause unforseen oddities even though he's compatible with most of the other magic systems.  But that becomes another unknown: if the spiritweb is too different from a standard human's to be able to reliably spike an ability into it  but not too different to be unable to spike their side of the Nahel Bond away, is there a similar line where the Spiritweb is too different from human for this whole "counterfeit Soul" thing to matter?

Mistborn Era 2 spoilers

Spoiler

So the "chimera" (17th shard coined term) that Wax goes against is implied to have gotten spikes from animals which is why they seemed so bestial. So animals are still in the mammalian kingdom, but also certainly aren't human. The chimera seem to be horrifically altered and lost most of themselves, but then again so were the koloss and that was just from multiple charges of human strength. So long and the short of it is, I don't know?

 

Edited by Pathfinder
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Just now, Pathfinder said:

Mistborn Era 2 spoilers

  Hide contents

So the "chimera" (17th shard coined term) that Wax goes against is implied to have gotten spikes from animals which is why they seemed so bestial. So animals are still in the mammalian kingdom, but also certainly aren't human. The chimera seem to be horrifically altered and lost most of themselves, but then again so were the koloss and that was just from multiple charges of human strength. So long and the short of it is, I don't know?

 

IN this isntace I suspect the bigger difference is that spren are, fundamentally, not native to the Physical Realm, so all those bits of the Spiritweb that normally dictate what your  physical form would look like are going to be missing or wildly different.  How different it needs to be to matter?  No clue

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3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

IN this isntace I suspect the bigger difference is that spren are, fundamentally, not native to the Physical Realm, so all those bits of the Spiritweb that normally dictate what your  physical form would look like are going to be missing or wildly different.  How different it needs to be to matter?  No clue

Lol this actually makes me begin to wonder if you would end up with spren/human hybrids. 

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4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Lol this actually makes me begin to wonder if you would end up with spren/human hybrids. 

From a certain perspective that is exactly what Radiant's are becoming with their Ideals.  It's just a more equal merger rather than one being a parts-car for the other.  

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