Friendshipspren

The Shard of Retribution

8 posts in this topic

So I was wondering that the fate of ambition was left somewhat ambiguous. I mean khriss says Uli da was mortally wounded and pieces of her shard were brutally ripped out , warping the threnodite system. But then she says she was splintered in another system , but not if Odium was the one who did it. Or if she was broken at Threnody and was already splintered or almost splintered and died of her wounds later on. Neither is there solid proof as to if she was killed at all.

So I have a theory. What if she became a shade ? A ghost. 

Now when I say a shade , I don't mean she lost her physical body like kelsier did. Instead she lost her mind.

I think it's more like the threnodite shades who still have a lethal ,caustic physical presence but not much mind. 

The shades exist on all three realms ,atleast in part. Khriss even wonders if they have souls. They most probably do. I think the defining and differentiating charecteristic of threnodite shades , is that they exist on all three realms but only barely.  

Now this is important as in SH, Ati mocks kelsier by saying that only someone who exists on all three realms can properly hold a Shard. 

Threnodite shades are special in that unlike other shadows in the Cosmere they aren't restricted to the cognitive realm. They exist on all three realms. 

And whose investiture is responsible for these shades ??? That's right Ambition's.

So could it be that Uli Da became a shade who barely exists on all three realms rather than one who doesn't exist on one or more realms (, ie, dying ). And since she's not a true shadow , a true ghost , she can still hold her Shardic nature efficiently. But since she has lost much of her mind , she would be more predatory , more instinctual in nature.

This sorta reminded me of the Grudge. The basic premise of the movie is from Japanese lore which states that if someone were to die in the midst of great tragedy or pain or anger or envy , thier souls would be consumed by it and they would turn into restless wraiths who murder anyone unfortunate enough to run into them. It doesn't matter if the person is innocent or guilty. A child or a old person. The shade is nothing more than a amalgation of pure envy , anger and hatred now. Envious and angry at others for being lucky enough to be happy or even alive. Thirsting to pass on it's pain and sadness to others ,so they too might know it's misfortune. Or maybe something even more mindless , just a being which wants to kill , to destroy , which has been consumed by destructive emotions so much that it's like a fish in water .

Kinda reminds u of some barely self aware splinters of investiture on Threnody , eh ?

Now Brandon spent 2 yrs in Korea , he got a lot of ideas there. And it wouldn't be impossible for him to learn of this piece of lore as Japan is close to the Korean peninsula and has some cultural influence in there or get to know of it via movies like the Ring or the Grudge

So here's my theory. I think Uli da didn't die , not completely anyway. I think she still has her physical essence but has sacrificed most of her mind , much like preservation did , either to escape from pain or as a determined move to secure vengeance. However she is not bound by non violence like leras was. She hates Odium and is ready to destroy him even if it means destroying herself as well. And she has become consumed by anger ,pain and despair . It doesn't clash with her intent , as her intent now is still ambition. Ambition to watch Odium burn. Indeed in a way it makes sense , there is no one more vengeful than an ambitious person cheated and nearly violated in almost every way possible. ( Which I believe is what being almost splintered must feel like )

I think that perhaps ambition still has some cognizance but she is overwhelmingly ruled by a desire for Revenge, for Retribution .  She may have lesser beings working for her. The Evil might be her pawn as well. And I think perhaps she's lying low for now. Gathering her strength. Moving her pawns . 

I have a few more points which I will post someother time.

Please do comment about ur thoughts on my theory. Thank u. 

 

 

 

Edited by PrinceGenocide
Some polishing
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I agree that it has not been explicitly said if ambition vessel uli da is dead or not. She was surely wounded and may be in hiding. 

Vengeance to me seems to be in fact a possible shard if odium and ambition were to merge! 

That also makes me wonder that odium is said to have been wounded, he is the “broken one”

so what if a few splinters of odium really did break away and got assimilated into splinters of  Ambition!! 

Such a shardic intent especially with a dying vessel could certainly create something or be an “EVIL” force. 

And since she wants to lie low, because she is ambitious and she plans for the future, she might even want to have a whole continent just to herself

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I find it unlikely that Uli Da survived due to the WoB below which seemingly implies that Odium kills vessels when splintering and Ambition was certainly splintered according to Khriss' essay (albeit in a different location).

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Ambition would later be splintered, though that final act took place in a different location.

.

 

Quote

 

Questioner

So if a person's holding a Shard, someone like the original sixteen people. Some of the Shards got [Splintered], does that automatically kill the people? Or can some of those people still be walking around?

Brandon Sanderson

It does not automatically, because you can give up pieces of investiture and things like this. It did kill them, that was part of the point. But there are ways to conceive of this happening that it wouldn't. Technically what Endowment is doing is giving up pieces, intentionally splintering to form these other pieces and things, so yeah.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

 
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Yeah, I agree there is no solid proof whether she died, but I believe her being dead. But I'll move to this later, there is another thing I want to talk before.

 

The shades.

On 27.09.2019 at 6:55 PM, PrinceGenocide said:

The shades exist on all three realms ,atleast in part. Khriss even wonders if they have souls. They most probably do. I think the defining and differentiating charecteristic of threnodite shades , is that they exist on all three realms but only barely.  

Do you have any quote for this? Because I always thought of them as cognitive shadows forced into the PR. i just find them very, very similar to Rosharan spren when they come into the PR to form a bond - they also became mindless (though even more than the shades, so probably the latter ones still have some connection to other realm).

On 27.09.2019 at 6:55 PM, PrinceGenocide said:

The shade is nothing more than a amalgation of pure envy , anger and hatred now. Envious and angry at others for being lucky enough to be happy or even alive. Thirsting to pass on it's pain and sadness to others ,so they too might know it's misfortune. Or maybe something even more mindless , just a being which wants to kill , to destroy , which has been consumed by destructive emotions so much that it's like a fish in water .

If you want to see a shade this way it would make for them more sense to be splinters of Odium, not Ambition, though I find them more like a mix of the two: just the fact that their eyes go red when raged is enugh for me there was more than one Shard in play.

 

On 27.09.2019 at 6:55 PM, PrinceGenocide said:

So here's my theory. I think Uli da didn't die , not completely anyway. I think she still has her physical essence but has sacrificed most of her mind , much like preservation did , either to escape from pain or as a determined move to secure vengeance. However she is not bound by non violence like leras was. She hates Odium and is ready to destroy him even if it means destroying herself as well. And she has become consumed by anger ,pain and despair . It doesn't clash with her intent , as her intent now is still ambition. Ambition to watch Odium burn. Indeed in a way it makes sense , there is no one more vengeful than an ambitious person cheated and nearly violated in almost every way possible. ( Which I believe is what being almost splintered must feel like )

I am almost sure she died. At least I remember it this way, that she died from mortal wounds received during fight with Odium. But I just realized that Shades could have been sort of her backup plan. 

Quote

FirstSelector

Did Ambition fight back?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

Quote

Questioner

What stories should I read that have Ambition’s influence in them? Where should I look for Ambition’s influence?

Brandon Sanderson

Ambition’s influence. So, uhm, you have seen it but I’m not going to say anything more than that. Let’s just say that the things that happened with Ambition have had ramifications across many places in the cosmere.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 19, 2017)

These 2 WoBs give me impression that Ambition could have had rather good futuresight (it goes quite well with her intent). It would totally make sense for her to expect the fight and make some preparations toward it. She got splintered, but left behind something that was supposed to try destroying Odium when given a chance.

On 27.09.2019 at 6:55 PM, PrinceGenocide said:

She hates Odium and is ready to destroy him even if it means destroying herself as well. And she has become consumed by anger ,pain and despair . It doesn't clash with her intent , as her intent now is still ambition. Ambition to watch Odium burn. Indeed in a way it makes sense , there is no one more vengeful than an ambitious person cheated and nearly violated in almost every way possible.

With this I totally agree, but I just not think it is still her. Though I can think of her having a Cognitive Shadow - just like Tanavast has - that would behave in a similar way.

 

EDIT: just found another WoB and it can actually support your theory about her not being dead. So it is still open I guess.

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Ambition wasn't Splintered in the contest with Odium. Is there a reason why he hasn't chosen another Avatar [Vessel] yet?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

Edited by Nnatel
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Ambition shard could be out there splintered but I think it has chunks of odium mixed in a little. 

So there is ambition but there is some odium there too. I think that would make her vengeance which is the ambition to take someone down like u suggest @PrinceGenocide

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@Nnatel, Spren are similar to shades but there's a key difference. Spren are cognitive beings and have negligent properties in the physical realm. 

 Most Spren can only exist momentarily in the physical realm . Some like windspren can play a few tricks with adhesion. They require a nahel bond to do more and even then most of the action is executed by the human or singer host.

Seons and skaze seem to be even more harmless. 

Threnodite  shades on the other hand , even one of them are extremely dangerous. They can not only manifest in the physical realm they can destroy entire creatures by thier own effort without a host to catalyse thier action.

Parshendi shades are almost harmless without singer or human hosts to provide them with the reqd bodies

The thunderclasts are the big exception but even they manifest via stone and they are few in number compared to the hordes of shades . 

Threnodite shades of on the other hand can be said to be almost incorporeal or atleast just like dispersed ectoplasm. Yet they can have such a strong destructive physical reaction with objects in the physical realm.

@The traveller u both mention she could have cannibalized on parts of Odium altering her intent. I guess it would be possible but would Odium really go up against 2 shards at the same time if he were missing chunks of himself. I guess ambition would have to integrate a large chunk of Odium if it were to be enough to alter her intent. 

Idk , while feasible and probably makes more sense than my theory. I still think retribution could be a tangent of Ambition alone , a different angle on the same crystal. 

Nice to know u guys atleast partially agree to my theory.

And .

 

 

Quote
Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Ambition wasn't Splintered in the contest with Odium. Is there a reason why he hasn't chosen another Avatar [Vessel] yet?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Wait I thought Ambition was splintered or atleast khriss thought so.

My theory is like she is partially splintered , but still somehow loosely held together on all three realms by her threnodite shade like entity now.

But if she were completely splintered like honor , then I guess it would be hard  for the pieces of the shard to find a new vessel.  

I mean the closest honor got to a new vessel was when Dalinar combined the three realms momentarily. That's not much really. Not compared to Vin or sazeds Ascensions.

Dominion and devotion didn't even get that 

 

5 hours ago, Nnatel said:

 

 

Edited by PrinceGenocide
A little polishing
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Vengeance and retribution are pretty close concepts so who knows. 

I think odium left some splinters behind and that is why he is called the broken one. His shard is broken. 

But he still went to take on 2 shards which surprises me, but may be that is why this time he decided that he will play safely and take more time. 

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1 hour ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Spren are similar to shades but there's a key difference. Spren are cognitive beings and have negligent properties in the physical realm. 

I would argue with it being the difference, because Shades are CS. 

Quote

danimalod

I just read Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell and loved it. How did the first shade come to be? Are there shades in other worlds? Do shades have bones?

Brandon Sanderson

Shades are what we call "Cognitive Shadows" in the cosmere. They're basically "spren" or "[seons]" created from human souls. (Where Investiture--or magical power--keeps a consciousness alive after it has lost its Physical connection.) Yes, shades all once had bodies.

Think of them like petrified souls, where instead of stone replacing the tissue of a corpse, magical power replaced the parts of a soul that connect that soul to the Three Realms.

Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 4, 2015)

And I believe the difference between the behaviour of them all comes from the Shard they originate from. 

 

1 hour ago, PrinceGenocide said:

The thunderclasts are the big exception but even they manifest via stone and they are few in number compared to the hordes of shades . 

But if they were created in similar way to shades, they would grow in number very quickly. Or at least I feel like this might be a reason. 

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