ThIngs you're disappointed you won't see in SA 4

[Necessary Eagle]

i feel like there's a lot of loose ends we're not going to see wrapped up because of the one year gap. Sure, we'll have the aftermath, and they might be summed up in a memory or dialogue, but it's not the same as being there as it happens. Seeing the expressions on their faces, so to speak.

The thing reaction shots I was really looking forward to seeing was what happens after Jasnah finds Ash and Taln. What Ash's reaction to waking up in (I assumeh) Urithiru is. What Jasnah has to say to her. How Jasnah breaks the news to Dalinar & co that she has two Heralds in custody, would they like to interview them? (Would they recognize them? Some of them saw Ash and Taln during the battle, but it was pretty busy and there was evil mood lighting).

[Ixthos]

Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

Kelsier punching Odium.

:-P

 

Tongue outside of cheek, probably Wit's early interactions with the spren - they probably have settled into a dynamic now, and not a lot of it is likely to be seen. Also the reactions of Adolin and Renarin when they first learn the full details of what happened at the Rift - we'll likely hear about it, or have them think on it, but we won't see it. Still, that last one is probably for the best.

[Quantus]

8 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Mistborn spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Kelsier punching Odium.

:-P

 

Tongue outside of cheek, probably Wit's early interactions with the spren - they probably have settled into a dynamic now, and not a lot of it is likely to be seen. Also the reactions of Adolin and Renarin when they first learn the full details of what happened at the Rift - we'll likely hear about it, or have them think on it, but we won't see it. Still, that last one is probably for the best.

We might still get the last.  It's possible that reveal might have been made to wait until Dalinar finished his book, I could see him breaking it to them by letting them be the first to read his manuscript before it's published (as one possibility.  

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

We might still get the last.  It's possible that reveal might have been made to wait until Dalinar finished his book, I could see him breaking it to them by letting them be the first to read his manuscript before it's published (as one possibility.  

Personally I really do not see Dalinar waiting till he wrote the book (draft or otherwise) and then giving Adolin and Renarin it to read to find out what happened. Dalinar is always an upfront in your face guy. I think he would see giving them the book to read as the cowards way out. Better to confront them as soon as possible, and lay it bare face to face. I could see him as that being (in his mind) the proper deference and punishment from Adolin and Renarin. That his sons deserve to hear it from him, and deserve it face to face so they can react however they will. At least that is how I think Dalinar would handle it based on what I have read of the character. As to their reactions, I think there will be shock, and upset, but again at the end of the day, at least regarding Evi's death, it was an accident and Dalinar has been trying to be a better man. It certainly will change how Adolin views his father, but I do not think it will destroy their relationship. 

[Quantus]

4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Personally I really do not see Dalinar waiting till he wrote the book (draft or otherwise) and then giving Adolin and Renarin it to read to find out what happened. Dalinar is always an upfront in your face guy. I think he would see giving them the book to read as the cowards way out. Better to confront them as soon as possible, and lay it bare face to face. I could see him as that being (in his mind) the proper deference and punishment from Adolin and Renarin. That his sons deserve to hear it from him, and deserve it face to face so they can react however they will. At least that is how I think Dalinar would handle it based on what I have read of the character.

I dont disagree, though I could see it going either way.  On the one hand, as you say, I dont really see him waiting for months and months.  On the other hand, I could see him agonizing over it and waiting until he'd worked out exactly how he wanted to say it, which would itself be the process of wrigint the book.  Also, waiting aside I didnt picture it being a Cowards Way Out because I pictured Dalinar being present when it was read to his sons (by Navani most likely, but possibly by Jasnah or by Dalinar himself).  

4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

As to their reactions, I think there will be shock, and upset, but again at the end of the day, at least regarding Evi's death, it was an accident and Dalinar has been trying to be a better man. It certainly will change how Adolin views his father, but I do not think it will destroy their relationship. 

Agreed. It might have been different eariler in the story, but Adolin and Renarin have each come a long way and I dont think either of them have too much righteous indignation in them any more.  Adolin's been affected quite a bit by his murder of Sadeas, which I think has him in a place to accept Dalinar's efforts to become a better man.  And Renarin was basically pushed to the edge of suicide (or at least over-acceptance of death), and in general doesnt strike me as the sort to hold that kind of grudge.  And in Renarin's case he was too young to have a whole lot of memories of their mother to complicate his emotions on the matter as much as Adolin that was old enough to remember those times.    

[Pathfinder]

23 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I dont disagree, though I could see it going either way.  On the one hand, as you say, I dont really see him waiting for months and months.  On the other hand, I could see him agonizing over it and waiting until he'd worked out exactly how he wanted to say it, which would itself be the process of wrigint the book.  Also, waiting aside I didnt picture it being a Cowards Way Out because I pictured Dalinar being present when it was read to his sons (by Navani most likely, but possibly by Jasnah or by Dalinar himself). 

To be clear (just in case), I do not mean to say cowards way out to deride your thinking/theory. I used that to describe how I think Dalinar might view it. Navani reading the book, I think he would feel as someone else telling the boys. Its like in elementary school you write a girl a note that you like them, rather than saying it to their face. Dalinar has always to me been a hands on man. Never have someone else do something you would not do yourself. When the visions were altered and released, he didn't wait to gather his thoughts, and come up with a rebuttal via pamphlets. He got up on a table, and told everyone there, "hey yeah I see visions. I own that. What is written isn't correct, but if you meet with me I will tell you straight." So I just don't personally see that kind of character waiting and I do not see that kind of character having someone else speak the words (to me) he feels he should be saying. So personally I see it as Dalinar taking Adolin, Renarin, Navani, Jasnah and anyone else particularly close to the family and saying "I have done horrible things in my life. If you are to follow me, you all deserve to know and decide for yourselves. I will not sugar coat it. This is what happened". Which ultimately is how he began the in world Oathbringer. 

Quote

Agreed. It might have been different eariler in the story, but Adolin and Renarin have each come a long way and I dont think either of them have too much righteous indignation in them any more.  Adolin's been affected quite a bit by his murder of Sadeas, which I think has him in a place to accept Dalinar's efforts to become a better man.  And Renarin was basically pushed to the edge of suicide (or at least over-acceptance of death), and in general doesnt strike me as the sort to hold that kind of grudge.  And in Renarin's case he was too young to have a whole lot of memories of their mother to complicate his emotions on the matter as much as Adolin that was old enough to remember those times.    

Yep yep. Adolin certainly won't have as much hero worship for his father, and certainly will no longer want the "blackthorn" back, now that he would know what that fully entails, but I do not think it will destroy them. If anything it might cause Adolin to respect his father more, and understand why his father felt the need to be so disciplined and rigid with himself. 

Edited September 27, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

We are going to miss a lot of windrunner stuff(Lopen and Teft learning and teaching).  I am going to miss the Heralds.  I am sad to miss the Szeth is introduced to everyone(the monarchs) moment.

[Quantus]

19 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

To be clear (just in case), I do not mean to say cowards way out to deride your thinking/theory. I used that to describe how I think Dalinar might view it. Navani reading the book, I think he would feel as someone else telling the boys. Its like in elementary school you write a girl a note that you like them, rather than saying it to their face. Dalinar has always to me been a hands on man. Never have someone else do something you would not do yourself. When the visions were altered and released, he didn't wait to gather his thoughts, and come up with a rebuttal via pamphlets. He got up on a table, and told everyone there, "hey yeah I see visions. I own that. What is written isn't correct, but if you meet with me I will tell you straight." So I just don't personally see that kind of character waiting and I do not see that kind of character having someone else speak the words (to me) he feels he should be saying. So personally I see it as Dalinar taking Adolin, Renarin, Navani, Jasnah and anyone else particularly close to the family and saying "I have done horrible things in my life. If you are to follow me, you all deserve to know and decide for yourselves. I will not sugar coat it. This is what happened". Which ultimately is how he began the in world Oathbringer. 

Oh, no worries, I totally agree that Dalinar would consider it the couwards way out if he just sort of left it to them to find the fact in his book.  I more think of it as him using the book as a sort of prepared statement, and only because I expect him to agonize over how to break it to his sons and how they will react.  So I could see him wanting to get his words right, and to be very deliberate about it.  But on the flip side I do think that every time he spends time with his sons and he doesn't tell them, it would become more and more of a cowards excuse.  So waiting to get his words right might happen, but it would be an exercise in incremental stalling on Dalinar's part (something Navani and even the Stormfather would likely give him crap for); to last a whole year he'd have to hide behind some excuse like them being out on assignment, stationed in a different city for most of it, etc.  

 

 

To the OP: Eshonai interacting with our current cast of Radiants, bridgemen, etc.  I know we've known it wouldnt happen, but I still do wish she'd lived into the current events.  

[+Oltux72]

6 hours ago, Ixthos said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Kelsier punching Odium.

 Also the reactions of Adolin and Renarin when they first learn the full details of what happened at the Rift - we'll likely hear about it, or have them think on it, but we won't see it. Still, that last one is probably for the best.

1. What allows the conclusions that they do not know?
2. What allows the conclusion that they would not consider what their mother had done an act of treason, which ought to be punished by death?

[Ixthos]

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

1. What allows the conclusions that they do not know?
2. What allows the conclusion that they would not consider what their mother had done an act of treason, which ought to be punished by death?

I'm not asserting that they won't know, I'm saying that in the one year since Dalinar learnt it he would have likely already have told his children what happened - it is the moral thing to do and he is working at being a better man - and he wouldn't have tried to paint her actions as traitorous, when he knows, and would tell them, that she was trying to solve the problem - was trying to help.

[+Oltux72]

5 hours ago, Ixthos said:

I'm not asserting that they won't know, I'm saying that in the one year since Dalinar learnt it he would have likely already have told his children what happened - it is the moral thing to do and he is working at being a better man - and he wouldn't have tried to paint her actions as traitorous, when he knows, and would tell them, that she was trying to solve the problem - was trying to help.

The problem with that is that is twofold. First, it applies long before he went to the Nightwatcher. In fact, even more so. Them not knowing the truth gives every potential enemy a weapon against House Kholin. Second, she was a traitor. She tried to help and everything, but it cannot change one basic fact. She made an unauthorized peace offer. That is treason. Again, you cannot spare the boys, because an enemy may make that allegation and they have to know that they may come into a situation where they cannot refute such an allegation.

[Ixthos]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

The problem with that is that is twofold. First, it applies long before he went to the Nightwatcher. In fact, even more so. Them not knowing the truth gives every potential enemy a weapon against House Kholin. Second, she was a traitor. She tried to help and everything, but it cannot change one basic fact. She made an unauthorized peace offer. That is treason. Again, you cannot spare the boys, because an enemy may make that allegation and they have to know that they may come into a situation where they cannot refute such an allegation.

I'm not exactly following you. My original statement was that it would have been insightful to see the reaction of Dalinar's sons to the discovery that their dad - when he was another man - killed their mother. They almost certainly will know this before the book starts, as the book starts a year after the end of Oathbringer, and Dalinar is not likely to have kept this information from them once he found it out, especially if wrote it in a book for everyone to know. That is like finding out you are adopted in your parent's autobiography, rather than them telling you. As for the second, she wasn't a traitor - in fact, if I remember correctly, Dalinar's actions were a betrayal of what he promised and wanted to do for Evi, what he had tried to do for her prior to him being betrayed. Her actions were to try and make the option Dalinar had initially decided on to please her, and to show he wasn't a monster, a reality. She didn't betray him, she instead tried to save him and save everyone, just as Dalinar had initially decided before his offer of a peaceful solution was slapped away. If Evi had succeeded, how would her actions have betrayed Dalinar - that is, hurt him or undermined his goals, when one of his goals when he was thinking more rationally was to spare lives?

 

[Edit:] To clarify - Adolin and Renarin, at the start of Stormlight 4, will know what happened to their mother, almost certainly hearing this from Dalinar. Thus we will see them interacting with Dalinar and each other after they have had time to think on this, rather than us seeing them being told.

Edited September 28, 2019 by Ixthos

[+Oltux72]

Just now, Ixthos said:

I'm not exactly following you. My original statement was that it would have been insightful to see the reaction of Dalinar's sons to the discovery that their dad - when he was another man - killed their mother. They almost certainly will know this before the book starts, as the book starts a year after the end of Oathbringer, and Dalinar is not likely to have kept this information from them once he found it out, especially if wrote it in a book for everyone to know.

Sorry for being unclear. To be perfectly blunt: You are looking at spilled milk. They knew before the start of TWoK. Anything else would be too big a political risk.

[Ixthos]

5 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Sorry for being unclear. To be perfectly blunt: You are looking at spilled milk. They knew before the start of TWoK. Anything else would be too big a political risk.

They knew their mother died before the Way of Kings, and that Dalinar burned the Rift in vengeance - if I remember correctly. What they didn't know, and what Dalinar now remembers, is that Evi actually died in the Rift, not because of it - as I recall Adolin even mentions that the [edit: burning of the] Rift was vengeance for their mother, not the cause of her death.

Edited September 28, 2019 by Ixthos

[Pathfinder]

On 9/28/2019 at 11:52 AM, Ixthos said:

They knew their mother died before the Way of Kings, and that Dalinar burned the Rift in vengeance - if I remember correctly. What they didn't know, and what Dalinar now remembers, is that Evi actually died in the Rift, not because of it - as I recall Adolin even mentions that the [edit: burning of the] Rift was vengeance for their mother, not the cause of her death.

Although it may be splitting straws, and when loved ones are involved, rational thought tends not to come into play, but Dalinar did not directly kill Evi. He did not intend for her to die. Did the actions he took result in a scenario where she died? Yes. Had Evi not taken the actions she took, would she have died? No. Not saying Evi did the wrong thing. Not saying the finger pointing should be pointed at her. But I think although there will be shock, and maybe some initial upset, again the fact of the matter is Dalinar did not kill Evi. Evi died as result of an accident. 

[Vindo]

What's going on with Ash and Taln. I have a feeling their passing out, is a plot device to keep them around, but do nothing for a book or two. 

[Wander89]

Spoiler

Kelsier

I'm always disappointed when he doesn't show up everywhere.

[Necessary Eagle]

On 10/1/2019 at 4:47 AM, Wander89 said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Kelsier

I'm always disappointed when he doesn't show up everywhere.

If it helps any, there's a fic on AO3 where Adolin bonds him as a spren. 

[Wander89]

13 hours ago, Necessary Eagle said:

If it helps any, there's a fic on AO3 where Adolin bonds him as a spren. 

That's a pretty interesting concept actually

[Honorless]

The Kholins and Kaladin's reaction to Szeth's side switch

Adolin and Renarin's reaction to Dalinar's truth

Ash and Taln's reaction to waking up in Urithiru

Nightblood's impression of Odium

Odium, the Fused and the rest of the Singers' reception of Nale and the Skybreakers

Edited November 19, 2019 by Honorless