WoR reread - just lost my respect for Kal

[Calderis]

@ND103 I don't understand how that's not anymore a life of absolutes.

Kaladin saw reason. The alternative there, standing his ground and fighting in the face of oppression, would have done nothing but make him a martyr. As much as Dalinar could have put his neck out and stopped things at that moment it would have meant completely undermining Elhokar's authority... Which albeit yes he did that anyway, but he'd been telling himself for so long that he couldn't do that and that it would cause Alethkar to fracture that I can't really say I don't see his point of view. 

Besides that fact... Martyrs have their place and get things done occasionally, but more often than not they're one more symbolic corpse on the pile. 

Going the route he did, breaking the system from inside it, making allies that are willing to create change (and like it or not in Vorin society, Dalinar is a storming progressive), is a lot more likely to get things done because you have people with the power to do things, and to open doors that set precedent. 

Revolution is aptly named most often in that it sets up an equally imbalanced system, with different targets of oppression. Sigzil, Kaladin, and Moash have a conversion about that very thing. 

The goal shouldn't be to just transition to a system in which the roles reverse. That's exactly what's happening with the new singers. That's exactly what Odium wants to happen. 

People need to be able to break the system in a way that the past can be reconciled and people can stand on equal footing. 

I'd really like to think that Kaladin is on the proper path for that. 

Edited October 17, 2019 by Calderis

[agrabes]

23 hours ago, ND103 said:

Looks like I'm the only anti authority rebel here. 

I'm very much of the persuasion that if you want change, you have to take it. Historically, literally no one has said oh you've been such a good boy, here have some rights. Have some freedom. 

You fight for it. You challenge every slight. You demand an unreasonable standard. And maybe, if you're lucky, you get a reasonable change. 

Certainly complying with authority that's oppressive without cause, compromising with - not today, never gets you anywhere. 

It's an extreme approach. That's true. But you don't get a revolution with peace. 

Even Gandhi won freedom for India on the backs of much more extreme revolutionaries. For one Gandhi, India had about fifty who were happy to lead violent protests. If I had to pick one of those two, I'd never back Gandhi alone. But the guy who raised an army in Singapore (Subhash Chandra Bose iirc), him I'd back. 

That depends on your goals and the political climate of the nation and the world.  Sure, no one has just said "Here, have some rights."  But sometimes, if you say "Hey, please give me some rights," they actually give them to you.  Or, you can use the system to become powerful and use your own power to influence things for the good.  I could list real world examples of how the path of moderate reform has succeeded and how the path of radical revolution has failed or succeeded in a pyrrhic victory where the nation is destroyed and can't recover economically for decades or even centuries, but that gets away from the point I'm trying to make related to the SA and WoR.  If you have radical views and goals that are far out of line with the prevailing attitude of the establishment, then yes the only way you can successfully achieve your goal is to be extreme and radical.  Sometimes your cause is just, moderate reform has been tried and failed, and civil disobedience is the the way you have to go like Ghandi or the American civil rights movement.  That's not the situation for Kaladin.

1) Kaladin's goals have never been to liberate the darkeyes from the oppressive reign of the lighteyes.  He resents the way he has personally been treated and believes the lighteyes are mostly bad people, but he has never expressed a desire to overthrow the lighteyes or reform the government so that they no longer have special privileges.  It would be out of character for him to start a hunger strike, etc.  Also, while it is true that Rosharan society discriminates against people based on eye color and grants privileges to the lighteyes, there is not widespread oppression and abuse of the darkeyes.  We see isolated incidences, but those are generally self policed by the other lighteyes (for example, Roshone).  It's not just that Sanderson doesn't want to go that dark - in Mistborn the skaa are oppressed much more heavily than the darkeyes of SA.  So the situation is bad, but not so bad as to be unbearable.  Frankly, if Kaladin had started a hunger strike it would have felt more like a temper tantrum than a battle for justice.

2) There is a large societal value to political stability (and free or mostly free society) which you are completely discounting.  Obviously, sometimes the oppression and injustice is great enough that something needs to be done right away.  Haiti pre-revolution is a great example of that - something had to be done right then and there because things were extremely bad and getting worse.  But that line is a lot harder to define than you are making out and it's not just the suffering of the unfortunate vs. the comfort of the moderates that is being balanced, it's the possible suffering of the nation as a whole for several decades or even centuries that can come after a civil war.

3) That is why both Kaladin and Dalinar accept the imprisonment even though neither likes it - both are wise enough to see that the value of keeping the government stable is much greater than the hurt pride of one darkeyed soldier.  Dalinar had the power and continued to work to get Kaladin free legally.  Dalinar has worked to make gradual positive changes in the Alethi society throughout all three books and has been successful with minimal negatives.  That's the model I prefer to see.

[ND103]

Well I get what you're saying intellectually. I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree! Different strokes and all that

Ultimately both have their uses, and obviously we are all going to have a preference of what we'd like to see... 

[IamSylphrenia]

Interestingly enough, I also lost respect for Kal in this scene, just for a different reason. (I should preface my next statements with I have never liked Kal. I respect him, but don't like him.) How decision to challenge Amaram was stupid. He knew he wouldn't be able to prove anything. He trusted Dalinar, he should just have left it at that. Even if he didn't think Dalinar was going to do anything about it, he should have realized that a bunch MORE Lighteyes wouldn't have believed him either. I think his backing down was a smart thing to do, though I was really irritated at his follow up scenes in prison. And whoever tried to tell me it is all Elhokars fault, let me just say that if Kaladin hadn't been an idiot, none of this would have happened. It was partially his fault they didn't catch Sadeus. I don't like reading Kaladin's chapters in the first place, but these chapters are absolute torture.

[Aon Tia]

Agreed @IamSylphrenia 

I don’t know how, he thought, that this could work? Amaram was highly respected and of 2nd or 3rd dahn. How he thought Alethkar society as it is, would allow him to challenge Amaram...

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by The traveller

[Pathfinder]

14 hours ago, IamSylphrenia said:

Interestingly enough, I also lost respect for Kal in this scene, just for a different reason. (I should preface my next statements with I have never liked Kal. I respect him, but don't like him.) How decision to challenge Amaram was stupid. He knew he wouldn't be able to prove anything. He trusted Dalinar, he should just have left it at that. Even if he didn't think Dalinar was going to do anything about it, he should have realized that a bunch MORE Lighteyes wouldn't have believed him either. I think his backing down was a smart thing to do, though I was really irritated at his follow up scenes in prison. And whoever tried to tell me it is all Elhokars fault, let me just say that if Kaladin hadn't been an idiot, none of this would have happened. It was partially his fault they didn't catch Sadeus. I don't like reading Kaladin's chapters in the first place, but these chapters are absolute torture.

 

13 hours ago, The traveller said:

Agreed @IamSylphrenia 

I don’t know how, he thought, that this could work? Amaram was highly respected and of 2nd or 3rd dahn. How he thought Alethkar society as it is, would allow him to challenge Amaram...

 

The purpose of the "kings boon" was that a challenge could be made where normally it could be avoided or refused. The original instance had a highprince they wanted to get out of power. So Sadeas did a wonderful bout, to which the king offered a boon, and Sadeas said he wants that guys head. King grants it. Unless the target wants to refuse the authority of the king, which would result in penalization as well, he would have to accept the fight immediately and fight then and there. That's what they were trying to do with Sadeas. Kaladin saw it as his chance to fight Amaram in a way he would never get to. He felt he was a part of the win, so he should get a boon too. He however did not anticipate the full extent of the lighteyed hypocrisy. That such a boon is allowed to lighteyes to lighteyes, not dark eyes, regardless the wording. Not saying he did the right thing, just I get the logic behind it. 

 

Words of Radiance Page 644

My husband spoke with Gavilar regarding the Right of Challenge and the King's Boon, ancient traditions that many of the lighteyes knew, but ignored in modern times. As traditions that shared a relationship to the historical crown, invoking them echoed our right to rule.

"The Right of Challenge is an ancient tradition - some say the Heralds instituted it. A lighteyed warrior who has proven himself before the Almighty and the king, turning and demanding justice from one who wronged him...."

Edited October 30, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Aon Tia]

@Pathfinder yes I agree with the whole king’s boon stuff and Kaladin did not lose any respect in my eyes for thinking it might work. 
But I was a little you know cringing reading it, when kal challenged Amaram, *cringes* because I knew it was not going to go well for him. I felt bad for Kaladin there. 
The state of Alethkar society is so bad, the dark eyes are so suppressed, even talking in a high voice to a light eye could earn you prison time.. so, it was like how did you think kal that it is going to work!!?

Did I think, that someone can throw him in prison and ask for his beheading(cough Elhokar cough) ? No. Not at all. But I did not think it was a good idea. 

[agrabes]

3 hours ago, The traveller said:

@Pathfinder yes I agree with the whole king’s boon stuff and Kaladin did not lose any respect in my eyes for thinking it might work. 
But I was a little you know cringing reading it, when kal challenged Amaram, *cringes* because I knew it was not going to go well for him. I felt bad for Kaladin there. 
The state of Alethkar society is so bad, the dark eyes are so suppressed, even talking in a high voice to a light eye could earn you prison time.. so, it was like how did you think kal that it is going to work!!?

Did I think, that someone can throw him in prison and ask for his beheading(cough Elhokar cough) ? No. Not at all. But I did not think it was a good idea. 

I think we probably feel about the same way about the incident - I wouldn't say I lost respect for Kaladin there but I was not happy with what he did.  It was good writing by Sanderson though - it definitely felt in character for Kaladin to do what he did.  I personally did expect him to get thrown in jail or otherwise severely punished for what he did.

I wouldn't put it quite that this was strictly a darkeyes vs. lighteyes thing or lighteyes hypocrisy.  It's not that a darkeyes talking in a loud voice to a lighteyes would get them jailed or beheaded.  I think it's that Kaladin is a person with a very checkered past in the official records - made a slave, then given the shash brand for being dangerous and leading armed revolts, eventually being put on a bridge crew for Sadeas' army.  We know that he was falsely accused, betrayed, etc but other than Dalinar, Adolin, and the crew of Bridge 4 no one else knows or has even been told the true story.  So, if you were the average lighteyes and suddenly a darkeyed former slave stands up and tries to piggy back on Adolin Kholin's duel victory while accusing Meridas Amaram who has a very strong reputation at this point in the story, then of course you're going to think that he is just a trouble maker.  That's not really lighteyes/darkeyes discrimination, it's just Kaladin's bad reputation working against him.  If a lighteyes with similar reputation had done the same thing, I would imagine that he/she would be treated the same way.  I would also argue that if a darkeyes with an average or good reputation had done what Kaladin did, especially against someone other than Amaram, then they would not have been thrown in jail.

[Aon Tia]

@agrabes I agree with most of it but the only problem I have, is with the idea that kal has bad history and therefore was treated more harshly. He does have bad history, I agree but he has also saved dalinar’s and adolin’s life. He and his crew has single-handedly saved the Kholin house from full collapse. By now in the story, he has proven his worth as a soldier, he has saved Elhokar’s And again dalinar’s life from assassin in white. He was the only one to have survived a direct fight with him. He gave them forewarning too of the attack. 
he, then, also saved Adolin and Renarin at the dueling arena and proved again his worth as a fighter. 
Despite all of that, he was thrown in jail because he challenged Amaram. 
I would put it to light eyes vs dark eyes only. 
I am very sure that if some other dark eyes had dared the same, they most certainly would have been thrown in jail. 

[Lccaseiro58]

I think Kaladin tried to take advantage of a tradition he didn't fully understand and got punished by it. I understand why he did it and agree that he shouldn't have tried it.

I can understand why people blame Kaladin for ruining the chance to kill Sadeas, but without Kaladin the Kholins would have lost all their shards, Adolin and Renarin would at least be seriously injured and Sadeas would be in a position to take control. So for me he still is the MVP of the duel, his team is losing badly and he carries then to a victory, not a complete victory but still a good one.

I didn't like how the Kholins get the win, without any consequence, after being checkmated by Sadeas. And Elhokar still blames Kaladin for not killing Sadeas.

[Aon Tia]

7 hours ago, lccaseiro58 said:

I can understand why people blame Kaladin for ruining the chance to kill Sadeas, but without Kaladin the Kholins would have lost all their shards, Adolin and Renarin would at least be seriously injured and Sadeas would be in a position to take control. So for me he still is the MVP of the duel, his team is losing badly and he carries then to a victory, not a complete victory but still a good one.

I do not understand at all how Elhokar could possibly blame Kal for losing their chance at killing Sadeas. It was extremely petty of him..

[Vissy]

On 9/26/2019 at 7:07 PM, Eluvianii said:

I think there's a difference between being true to your ideals and being downright foolish. Had Kaladin done something there, most likely nothing would have changed, save for his punishment being worse and probably him dying. When you know your efforts will most likely fail, living to fight another day is always the better option.

Besides, Dalinar said it himself, change won't come if all you do is demand it, it may sound wrong but you have to earn it. He may be right and all but him rebelling at the arena, in the eyes of everyone present would have looked like a child throwing a tantrum. it's far more efective (and far more satisfying) when you play smart and take the time to prove them wrong instead of just yelling it at their faces.

Yelling at peoples' faces is literally the most efficient way to get changes done, though. Nothing would have happened and Dalinar would never have doubted Amaram as early as he did without Kaladin doing something. He made a mistake jailing Kaladin, and I think that's something he owes him for. That Adolin chose to spend days in prison with Kaladin in protest says it all really. 

[Impact]

On ‎10‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 9:40 AM, Honorless said:

Personally, that was the moment I lost respect for Dalinar. And then the situation with having Amaram as the head of the new Knights Radiant... oof. He eventually made good but I felt as betrayed as Kaladin. 

If some guy who you've know for maybe a month started slandering someone you've known for years, you'd want to get the facts straight before really taking sides.  Which Dalinar did.  And that doesn't even account for the very complex politics involved.

 

Right may be right, but the right course isn't always simple and sometimes needs to be fleshed out

[agrabes]

14 hours ago, The traveller said:

@agrabes I agree with most of it but the only problem I have, is with the idea that kal has bad history and therefore was treated more harshly. He does have bad history, I agree but he has also saved dalinar’s and adolin’s life. He and his crew has single-handedly saved the Kholin house from full collapse. By now in the story, he has proven his worth as a soldier, he has saved Elhokar’s And again dalinar’s life from assassin in white. He was the only one to have survived a direct fight with him. He gave them forewarning too of the attack. 
he, then, also saved Adolin and Renarin at the dueling arena and proved again his worth as a fighter. 
Despite all of that, he was thrown in jail because he challenged Amaram. 
I would put it to light eyes vs dark eyes only. 
I am very sure that if some other dark eyes had dared the same, they most certainly would have been thrown in jail. 

He did save the Kholins, but that's probably not widely known or at least not widely believed.  That's why I say that Adolin and Dalinar should (and do) stick up for him, but no one else is going to.  The rest of the nobility/lighteyes are not going to believe reports that a former slave darkeyes is the one saving everyone.  Even if Dalinar was telling everyone about it (which I'm not sure he did) people thought he was half crazy.  Kaladin fought well in the arena and had he not done what he did he would have probably built up a much better reputation for himself after that.  He wouldn't have won everyone over, but he would have started the process.  

Instead, he got impatient.  Adolin is a person in the highest class of the society who is also well liked by everyone because he is so good in the arena.  He is definitely going to get his chance to win the boon.  Kaladin is a nobody with everything going against him except for his performance in this duel who has called out one of the lighteyes who has the best reputation and is one of the most well liked.  Kaladin as an individual in his actions made things worse.  I wouldn't guarantee that any other darkeyes would have been able to get the boon of a duel with Amaram because that is too high a bar, but if they had asked for a different boon I think they would have gotten it.  I also don't think that if some random lower lighteyes asked for a duel with Amaram or Sadeas that they would have gotten it.

My point is that while lighteyes vs. darkeyes did play a factor there are other factors that played a much bigger part in the ultimate results.

 

[Pathfinder]

21 hours ago, The traveller said:

@Pathfinder yes I agree with the whole king’s boon stuff and Kaladin did not lose any respect in my eyes for thinking it might work. 
But I was a little you know cringing reading it, when kal challenged Amaram, *cringes* because I knew it was not going to go well for him. I felt bad for Kaladin there. 
The state of Alethkar society is so bad, the dark eyes are so suppressed, even talking in a high voice to a light eye could earn you prison time.. so, it was like how did you think kal that it is going to work!!?

Did I think, that someone can throw him in prison and ask for his beheading(cough Elhokar cough) ? No. Not at all. But I did not think it was a good idea. 

I think part of it was there was a sliver of him, at Syl's urging, was trying to believe in Dalinar but still balancing that with his own prejudice. That he could get justice from lighteyes, but he had to do it with them kicking and screaming. I liken it to Breaking Bad and Walter White. I will spoil the reference below

 

Spoiler

If Walter went full on drug lord, he would have ironically been ok. But it was always (in my opinion) because there were moments he held back, in his mind trying to rationalize that he was still "a good man just doing it for his family", that thinks continued to bite him back. Only at the end did he finally admit he did it for himself. 

 

So had Kaladin either fully embraced his hatred of the lighteyes (and thereby ended up helping and joining Moash), or fully embraced trusting Dalinar, and worked with him over time, then the incarceration would not have happened. Either Elhokar would have ended up dead, or over time Dalinar may have helped him with Amaram. However, because Kaladin still was focused on revenge and his prejudice, while simultaneously trying to get the lighteyes to live up to his expectations, ultimately led to the incarceration. At least that is how I see it. 

 

15 hours ago, The traveller said:

@agrabes I agree with most of it but the only problem I have, is with the idea that kal has bad history and therefore was treated more harshly. He does have bad history, I agree but he has also saved dalinar’s and adolin’s life. He and his crew has single-handedly saved the Kholin house from full collapse. By now in the story, he has proven his worth as a soldier, he has saved Elhokar’s And again dalinar’s life from assassin in white. He was the only one to have survived a direct fight with him. He gave them forewarning too of the attack. 
he, then, also saved Adolin and Renarin at the dueling arena and proved again his worth as a fighter. 
Despite all of that, he was thrown in jail because he challenged Amaram. 
I would put it to light eyes vs dark eyes only. 
I am very sure that if some other dark eyes had dared the same, they most certainly would have been thrown in jail. 

I agree. Elhokar even commented that he liked Kaladin because of how Kaladin ran the guards. It was only when what Kaladin did was inconvenient to Elhokar, that he then called for execution. 

 

7 hours ago, The traveller said:

I do not understand at all how Elhokar could possibly blame Kal for losing their chance at killing Sadeas. It was extremely petty of him..

I think (I will have to check), but the reason Elhokar got upset at Kaladin was not because of losing the chance at Sadeas. It was because it was a darkeyes speaking up against a lighteyes. 

7 hours ago, Vissy said:

Yelling at peoples' faces is literally the most efficient way to get changes done, though. Nothing would have happened and Dalinar would never have doubted Amaram as early as he did without Kaladin doing something. He made a mistake jailing Kaladin, and I think that's something he owes him for. That Adolin chose to spend days in prison with Kaladin in protest says it all really. 

I do not think we can necessarily say that for sure. Dalinar is the type to be thorough. I took Dalinar's scheme as a test for Amaram, which he failed. 

2 hours ago, Impact said:

If some guy who you've know for maybe a month started slandering someone you've known for years, you'd want to get the facts straight before really taking sides.  Which Dalinar did.  And that doesn't even account for the very complex politics involved.

 

Right may be right, but the right course isn't always simple and sometimes needs to be fleshed out

I agree

 

39 minutes ago, agrabes said:

He did save the Kholins, but that's probably not widely known or at least not widely believed.  That's why I say that Adolin and Dalinar should (and do) stick up for him, but no one else is going to.  The rest of the nobility/lighteyes are not going to believe reports that a former slave darkeyes is the one saving everyone.  Even if Dalinar was telling everyone about it (which I'm not sure he did) people thought he was half crazy.  Kaladin fought well in the arena and had he not done what he did he would have probably built up a much better reputation for himself after that.  He wouldn't have won everyone over, but he would have started the process.  

Instead, he got impatient.  Adolin is a person in the highest class of the society who is also well liked by everyone because he is so good in the arena.  He is definitely going to get his chance to win the boon.  Kaladin is a nobody with everything going against him except for his performance in this duel who has called out one of the lighteyes who has the best reputation and is one of the most well liked.  Kaladin as an individual in his actions made things worse.  I wouldn't guarantee that any other darkeyes would have been able to get the boon of a duel with Amaram because that is too high a bar, but if they had asked for a different boon I think they would have gotten it.  I also don't think that if some random lower lighteyes asked for a duel with Amaram or Sadeas that they would have gotten it.

My point is that while lighteyes vs. darkeyes did play a factor there are other factors that played a much bigger part in the ultimate results.

 

But it was Elhokar who called for the punishment that did not have to take place. Elhokar who had been saved by Kaladin. Elhokar who just prior was extolling Kaladin. I need to pull up the scene again to be sure, but I could have sworn it was explained that Elhokar over reacted, and did what he did because he didn't like the dark eyes challenging a lighteyes because it was in Elhokar's eyes upending the status quo and questioning his authority. But I will get back to this once I pull it up. 

 

 

edit: Pulled up the scene Words of Radiance page 675

"He was the only one who went to help my sons"

"That's his job!" Elhokar snapped back "He insulted a highlord in front of the entire court" Elhokar said, pacing beside the wall "He dared challenge a man so high above his station, the gap between them could hold a kingdom".......

"On a dueling ground, where his help was invited" Elhokar said throwing is hands into the air "I still don't agree with letting a dark eyes duel Shardbearers. If you hadn't held me back....Bah! I won't stand for this, Uncle. I won't. Common soldiers challenging our highest and most important generals? It is madness"

(it is then that the losing Sadeas is mentioned, but this is where the execution talk actually comes up....)

"This is what you get, Uncle" Elhokar said "for putting a slave in charge of our guard. Storms! What were you thinking? What was I thinking in allowing you?".....

"It's not his skill but his discipline that is the problem!" The king folded his arms "Execution"....

"It is punishment for slandering a highlord" Elhokar said "It is the law"

"You can pardon any crime, as king" Dalinar said "Don't tell me you honestly want to see this man hanged after what he did today"

 

So yeah Elhokar was pissed that they lost their chance at Sadeas, but it looks to me that the reason he wanted Kaladin killed was because a darkeyes challenged a lighteyes. 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Aon Tia]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I think (I will have to check), but the reason Elhokar got upset at Kaladin was not because of losing the chance at Sadeas. It was because it was a darkeyes speaking up against a lighteyes. 

Yes I know that but still This incident  speaks very poorly of Elhokar as a king or person. 
He is clearly jealous and throws a temper tantrum. 
 

 

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

But it was Elhokar who called for the punishment that did not have to take place. Elhokar who had been saved by Kaladin. Elhokar who just prior was extolling Kaladin. I need to pull up the scene again to be sure, but I could have sworn it was explained that Elhokar over reacted, and did what he did because he didn't like the dark eyes challenging a lighteyes because it was in Elhokar's eyes upending the status quo and questioning his authority. But I will get back to this once I pull it up. 

@Pathfinder Agreed. @agrabes what the others know and not know is irrelevant here. Besides Everyone knows about what happened at the tower with Sadeas betrayal. It was a very public confrontation between dalinar and Sadeas. And besides, Elhokar calling for kal’s head knows everything!

[Pathfinder]

7 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Yes I know that but still This incident  speaks very poorly of Elhokar as a king or person. 
He is clearly jealous and throws a temper tantrum. 
 

Oh totally. I never was intending to defend Elhokar's actions. 

[agrabes]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

r who called for the punishment that did not have to take place. Elhokar who had been saved by Kaladin. Elhokar who just prior was extolling Kaladin. I need to pull up the scene again to be sure, but I could have sworn it was explained that Elhokar over reacted, and did what he did because he didn't like the dark eyes challenging a lighteyes because it was in Elhokar's eyes upending the status quo and questioning his authority. But I will get back to this once I pull it up. 

 

 

edit: Pulled up the scene Words of Radiance page 675

"He was the only one who went to help my sons"

"That's his job!" Elhokar snapped back "He insulted a highlord in front of the entire court" Elhokar said, pacing beside the wall "He dared challenge a man so high above his station, the gap between them could hold a kingdom".......

"On a dueling ground, where his help was invited" Elhokar said throwing is hands into the air "I still don't agree with letting a dark eyes duel Shardbearers. If you hadn't held me back....Bah! I won't stand for this, Uncle. I won't. Common soldiers challenging our highest and most important generals? It is madness"

(it is then that the losing Sadeas is mentioned, but this is where the execution talk actually comes up....)

"This is what you get, Uncle" Elhokar said "for putting a slave in charge of our guard. Storms! What were you thinking? What was I thinking in allowing you?".....

"It's not his skill but his discipline that is the problem!" The king folded his arms "Execution"....

"It is punishment for slandering a highlord" Elhokar said "It is the law"

"You can pardon any crime, as king" Dalinar said "Don't tell me you honestly want to see this man hanged after what he did today"

 

So yeah Elhokar was pissed that they lost their chance at Sadeas, but it looks to me that the reason he wanted Kaladin killed was because a darkeyes challenged a lighteyes. 

Even the sections you highlighted seem to suggest otherwise though.  It wasn't primarily because a darkeyes challenged a lighteyes.  It was based primarily on the fact that someone from among the lower classes was rising above his station.  I would also point out that Elhokar is shown to be one of the more "eye discriminating" members of the Alethi leadership.  Dalinar points out that he and other leaders had to correct Elhokar on this with the example of Roshone's banishment.  I wouldn't use Elhokar as an example of the culture at large, he's described as a petulant child who was given everything by his father.  He's the kind of King who doesn't understand the importance and responsibilities of his position, only the power and privilege.  He starts to learn better in OB, but he never makes it all the way.

Also, the reason why what other people know and don't know is important is because it informs us on the context of the reactions of the general ruling class of Alethkar.  Is the entire group (all lighteyes) extremely biased against the darkeyes?  Or is it just a few?  We can say that Elhokar is bad, but even he isn't extremely terrible specifically in terms of this issue.  If all the lighteyes knew that Kaladin was falsely accused, if they knew his true role and ability and they still sided with Elhokar then (and only then) could we say that most lighteyes or the culture as a whole is extremely oppressive.  It seems unlikely that anyone other than Elhokar, Dalinar, and Adolin knew that Kaladin was anything other than a former slave with an attitude problem.  Elhokar knew less than Dalinar and Adolin, but still knew enough.

Complaints Based on Eye Color:

I still don't agree with letting a dark eyes duel Shardbearers

Complaints Not Based on Eye Color:

He insulted a highlord in front of the entire court"

He dared challenge a man so high above his station, the gap between them could hold a kingdom

Common soldiers challenging our highest and most important generals? It is madness

putting a slave in charge of our guard

It is punishment for slandering a highlord

 

Anyway, not that this is a hill I want to die on.  I'm just saying that Alethi society, while discriminatory, is not as bad as other societies that Sanderson has written (The Lord Ruler, Steelheart, etc).  Alethi society is more like "Enlightened Despotism" - all powerful ruling class that holds all the privilege in society, but most of them genuinely try to do what they think is best for the lower classes.  The only problem is, they're so far removed they don't understand what is best and they end up doing bad things anyway.

[Pathfinder]

29 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Even the sections you highlighted seem to suggest otherwise though.  It wasn't primarily because a darkeyes challenged a lighteyes.  It was based primarily on the fact that someone from among the lower classes was rising above his station.  I would also point out that Elhokar is shown to be one of the more "eye discriminating" members of the Alethi leadership.  Dalinar points out that he and other leaders had to correct Elhokar on this with the example of Roshone's banishment.  I wouldn't use Elhokar as an example of the culture at large, he's described as a petulant child who was given everything by his father.  He's the kind of King who doesn't understand the importance and responsibilities of his position, only the power and privilege.  He starts to learn better in OB, but he never makes it all the way.

But in this case darkeyes is synonmous with "low station". The earlier quote I provided from Adolin is  "A lighteyed warrior who has proven himself before the Almighty and the king, turning and demanding justice from one who wronged him...." Adolin didn't say warrior, he specified the eye color of the warrior. Kaladin just chose either not to hear that, or think it still counted for darkeyes as well. As to whether Elhokar is more discriminating or not, I will reply further below. 

Quote

Also, the reason why what other people know and don't know is important is because it informs us on the context of the reactions of the general ruling class of Alethkar.  Is the entire group (all lighteyes) extremely biased against the darkeyes?  Or is it just a few?  We can say that Elhokar is bad, but even he isn't extremely terrible specifically in terms of this issue. 

But it was Elhokar who called for Kaladin's arrest. The guards didn't go after him because they assumed. They went to arrest him, because Elhokar said to arrest him. So to me, it does not matter how the society views dark eyes or light eyes. It matters that Elhokar viewed it as an issue because he is the one that called for it. Dalinar confirmed later Elhokar could have disregarded it as King. 

Quote

 

Complaints Based on Eye Color:

I still don't agree with letting a dark eyes duel Shardbearers

Complaints Not Based on Eye Color:

He insulted a highlord in front of the entire court"

He dared challenge a man so high above his station, the gap between them could hold a kingdom

Common soldiers challenging our highest and most important generals? It is madness

putting a slave in charge of our guard

It is punishment for slandering a highlord

 

As per tradition anyone should be able to duel a shardbearer, and if you win, you win the shards. Doesn't matter if you are dark eyed or light eyed. What Elhokar just said there shows at least for him, that is a myth that should not be allowed to occur for real. 

Quote

Anyway, not that this is a hill I want to die on.  I'm just saying that Alethi society, while discriminatory, is not as bad as other societies that Sanderson has written (The Lord Ruler, Steelheart, etc).  Alethi society is more like "Enlightened Despotism" - all powerful ruling class that holds all the privilege in society, but most of them genuinely try to do what they think is best for the lower classes.  The only problem is, they're so far removed they don't understand what is best and they end up doing bad things anyway.

I think where the confusion came in is I am not offering a commentary on Rosharan rights. All I am commenting on is why I believe Kaladin took the actions he did, and what actions others took and the why they took them. To me, Kaladin tried for the King's Boon because although a part of him still hated the lighteyes, a part of him thought he could beat them at their own game and get justice. To me, the King called for Kaladin's arrest and execution because a dark eyes challenged a light eyes. Kaladin attained the highest rank a dark eyes ever did, because Dalinar actually had to put him outside the typical command structure to do so. There was a Tor article where comments broke down how high a dark eyes could get, and it was shown they could not become officers. So by the literal definition, any dark eyes in the military structure is a common soldier. 

 

edit: to put it another way, there isn't a dahn that his higher than a nahn. Does not matter how high a dark eyes gets, as per the structure, he or she will still be lower in standing than the lowest nahn. The 1st dahn darkeyes could have all the money in the world, and the rights to back it up, and they will still be seen as lower than a 10th nahn light eyes. 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Pathfinder

[agrabes]

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

But in this case darkeyes is synonmous with "low station". The earlier quote I provided from Adolin is  "A lighteyed warrior who has proven himself before the Almighty and the king, turning and demanding justice from one who wronged him...." Adolin didn't say warrior, he specified the eye color of the warrior. Kaladin just chose either not to hear that, or think it still counted for darkeyes as well. As to whether Elhokar is more discriminating or not, I will reply further below. 

But it was Elhokar who called for Kaladin's arrest. The guards didn't go after him because they assumed. They went to arrest him, because Elhokar said to arrest him. So to me, it does not matter how the society views dark eyes or light eyes. It matters that Elhokar viewed it as an issue because he is the one that called for it. Dalinar confirmed later Elhokar could have disregarded it as King. 

 

As per tradition anyone should be able to duel a shardbearer, and if you win, you win the shards. Doesn't matter if you are dark eyed or light eyed. What Elhokar just said there shows at least for him, that is a myth that should not be allowed to occur for real. 

I think where the confusion came in is I am not offering a commentary on Rosharan rights. All I am commenting on is why I believe Kaladin took the actions he did, and what actions others took and the why they took them. To me, Kaladin tried for the King's Boon because although a part of him still hated the lighteyes, a part of him thought he could beat them at their own game and get justice. To me, the King called for Kaladin's arrest and execution because a dark eyes challenged a light eyes. Kaladin attained the highest rank a dark eyes ever did, because Dalinar actually had to put him outside the typical command structure to do so. There was a Tor article where comments broke down how high a dark eyes could get, and it was shown they could not become officers. So by the literal definition, any dark eyes in the military structure is a common soldier. 

 

edit: to put it another way, there isn't a dahn that his higher than a nahn. Does not matter how high a dark eyes gets, as per the structure, he or she will still be lower in standing than the lowest nahn. The 1st dahn darkeyes could have all the money in the world, and the rights to back it up, and they will still be seen as lower than a 10th nahn light eyes. 

I think it's fair to say that Elhokar in particular was biased.  The argument I'm making though (and I probably haven't articulated this very well) is that while it is true that by rule/law the highest darkeyes is lower than the lowest lighteyes, in practice that is not the case.  It's pointed out in the books that there are plenty of light eyes who are just as low as darkeyes and in a lot of cases worse off than the middle to upper darkeyes.  Kaladin meets them in WoK and is amazed because he always assumed that even though he knew there were lower ranked lighteyes, he had always assumed before that even the lowest of them still got special privileges.  When he got to the war camps, he saw the lower ranked lighteyes in conditions nearly as bad as his.  At least, that's what my memory is telling me, haven't looked at the books in while.

If you want to go to the military example, the youngest commissioned officer straight out of training technically out ranks the most senior and highest ranking non-commissioned officer.  However, don't expect that new Lieutenant to be able to order around a Sergeant Major.  

It's not shown directly in the books and I may be reading too far between the lines here, but it seems to be implied that there are plenty of dark eyes in positions of power and respect in their own right.  They may not be allowed to be political rulers or military commanders, but in wider society they are powerful through their economic power and their skills or knowledge (such as Kaladin's father).  Kaladin is not one of these darkeyes, among darkeyes he is the lowest of the low due to his reputation as a rebellious slave which everyone can immediately see because of his brands.  In WoR, he was made the captain of Dalinar's bodyguards which gives him (for a dark eyes) a high military rank but not a high reputation and class in society because his reputation was so badly tarnished before.  He's seen as a sign of Dalinar's madness - promoting a former slave who was totally undeserving (in their eyes, who know nothing about who Kaladin really is or what he has really done) to the captain of his guard.  My argument here is that if there was a darkeyes who did not have Kaladin's history, who had been a model citizen and earned the rank of Captain, that darkeyes would have been treated differently than Kaladin because his/her social status would have been much higher.

The legend/tradition that Adolin quoted is probably not absolute.  It says that any lighteyed warrior could do this, but I don't believe that a lighteyed warrior who has a low social status and no prior relationship with the King would be granted a boon.  I also think that a darkeyed warrior could have been allowed a boon, if that warrior was viewed very highly by the king and enough of the highlords.  So, while Kaladin did get in trouble, I think that a low ranking lighteyes would have gotten in similar trouble.  I think that "high ranking" darkeyes would have gotten in less trouble than Kaladin did for pulling the same stunt.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

I think it's fair to say that Elhokar in particular was biased.  The argument I'm making though (and I probably haven't articulated this very well) is that while it is true that by rule/law the highest darkeyes is lower than the lowest lighteyes, in practice that is not the case.  It's pointed out in the books that there are plenty of light eyes who are just as low as darkeyes and in a lot of cases worse off than the middle to upper darkeyes.  Kaladin meets them in WoK and is amazed because he always assumed that even though he knew there were lower ranked lighteyes, he had always assumed before that even the lowest of them still got special privileges.  When he got to the war camps, he saw the lower ranked lighteyes in conditions nearly as bad as his.  At least, that's what my memory is telling me, haven't looked at the books in while.

So my response right now is more just responding as conversation than having anything to do with my original point. The reason I say this, is regarding my point, to me the event that took place between Elhokar and Kaladin does not matter regarding the overall society, as it would have taken place that way regardless. For instance if we exchange Elhokar for some other ruler, Kaladin will still act the way he did because he as the person Kaladin distrusts lighteyes on whole. The society could be exactly as you describe, and it would not matter, because as Kaladin sees it, it is lighteyes vs darkeyes, with darkeyes always getting the short end of the stick. At this point in the story he still distrusts them, but a part hopes he can beat them at their own game, which is why he was not open and honest with Dalinar. He didn't think he could accomplish it with a conversation. That's what happened with Amaram. It was in a room, hidden from everyone. This way, its on display. Now let us change Kaladin for any old darkeyed, and keep Elhokar. It still will go down the same way, because as I have shown, and you agree, Elhokar is biased against darkeyes. That is why he called for Kaladin's arrest. So if random darkeyed did what Kaladin did, then random darkeyed would have been arrested. That's why I am saying I am not making a commentary on the Alethi society. I am commenting on the individuals. 

Now having said that, to respond conversationally to what you wrote. My personal mentality is if a stature cannot be attained via any way other than changing the color of a body part, then the stature is associated with that body part. There are three ways to change your stature for a dark eyes

 

1. become a merchant and earn money, buying your way up the dahn

2. get a shardblade/plate to turn into a light eyes and gain a nahn

3. be a high dahn, marrying into a low nahn. 

 

The only instance where a darkeyes rises out of the dahn, and into a nahn is if their eyes change color via shardblade/plate. If they earn money, they will always be at the highest first dahn. If they marry into a lighteyes family, they will still be lower than their spouse, and if their child is a lighteyes, their child will still out rank them. There is no mention nor possibility of a dark eyes, keeping their darkeyes and attaining a rank of nahn. It is either you change your eye color, or remain dahn. You can be as high of a dahn as you want. You can have as much money as you want, and still the lowest nahn will outrank you as per their ranks. Privilege or not, they are still outranked. 

Quote

If you want to go to the military example, the youngest commissioned officer straight out of training technically out ranks the most senior and highest ranking non-commissioned officer.  However, don't expect that new Lieutenant to be able to order around a Sergeant Major.  

On our world, I agree. A dark eyed merchant with a lot of money if he or she does things right might even have more clout than a 10th nahn light eyes, but from what we have seen of the alethi military, the youngest commissioned officer can most definitely order around the most senior highest ranking sergeant major (as we have seen in Sadeas's camp), and the 10th nahn lighteyes still as per the society outranks that extremely rich 1st dahn darkeyes. And in order to gain any further rank or legitimacy, that 1st dahn darkeyes will have to marry into that 10th nahn lighteyes to get any farther. 

Quote

It's not shown directly in the books and I may be reading too far between the lines here, but it seems to be implied that there are plenty of dark eyes in positions of power and respect in their own right.  They may not be allowed to be political rulers or military commanders, but in wider society they are powerful through their economic power and their skills or knowledge (such as Kaladin's father).  Kaladin is not one of these darkeyes, among darkeyes he is the lowest of the low due to his reputation as a rebellious slave which everyone can immediately see because of his brands.  In WoR, he was made the captain of Dalinar's bodyguards which gives him (for a dark eyes) a high military rank but not a high reputation and class in society because his reputation was so badly tarnished before.  He's seen as a sign of Dalinar's madness - promoting a former slave who was totally undeserving (in their eyes, who know nothing about who Kaladin really is or what he has really done) to the captain of his guard.  My argument here is that if there was a darkeyes who did not have Kaladin's history, who had been a model citizen and earned the rank of Captain, that darkeyes would have been treated differently than Kaladin because his/her social status would have been much higher.

He was given rank of captain, because to raise him any further, would mean Kaladin could technically command a lighteyes, which Dalinar says he cannot do. kaladin comments on situations where he has to be careful how he says things to lighteyed officers, because of his unorthodox rank. He can command them, but at the same token he cannot because they outrank him. I can pull up that scene for you if you give me a moment. Brandon has commented on how there is a burgeoning middle class developing among the high rank darkeyes, but at the stage of the story, at the end of the day, if you are darkeyes, you do not get to be of a nahn. 

 

edit: Found it!

Way of Kings Page 984

"And I want space to train" kaladin said "Full right of requisition from the quartermasters. I get to set my men's schedule, and we appoint out own sergeants and squad leaders. We don't answer to any lighteyes but yourself, your sons, and the king"

Dalinar raised an eyebrow "That last one is a little.... irregular"

"You want me to guard you and your family?" Kaladin said. "Against the other highprinces and their assassins, who might infiltrate your army and your officers? Well, I can't be in a position where any lighteyes in the camp can order me around, now can I?"

"You have a point" Dalinar said "You realize, however, that in doing this, I would essentially be giving you the same authority as a light eyes of the fourth dahn. You'd be in charge of a thousand former bridgemen. A full battalion"

"yes"

"Very well. Consider yourself appointed to the rank of captain - that's as high as I dare appoint a darkeyes. If I named you battalionlord, it would cause a whole mess of problems. I'll let it be known, however, that you're outside the chain of command. You don't order around lighteyes of lesser rank than you, and lighteyes of higher rank have no authority over you. 

 

Words of Radiance page 56

Dalinar made me a captain" kaladin said "The highest rank he said he dared commission a dark eyes"

 

Words of Radiance page 62

"A darkeyed captain! Who would have thought it possible? You'll be the only one in the army. The only one eve, so far as I know!"

 

Words of Radiance page 91

"Soldier" Kaladin said with a nod to one of them, a lighteyes of low rank. Militarily, Kaladin outranked a man like this - but not socially,. Again, he wasn't certain how all of this was supposed to work. 

 

Quote

The legend/tradition that Adolin quoted is probably not absolute.  It says that any lighteyed warrior could do this, but I don't believe that a lighteyed warrior who has a low social status and no prior relationship with the King would be granted a boon.  I also think that a darkeyed warrior could have been allowed a boon, if that warrior was viewed very highly by the king and enough of the highlords.  So, while Kaladin did get in trouble, I think that a low ranking lighteyes would have gotten in similar trouble.  I think that "high ranking" darkeyes would have gotten in less trouble than Kaladin did for pulling the same stunt.

This portion is entirely your own conjecture, which you are totally entitled to, but personally my reading differs. I think the wording is pretty explicit, but as there is nothing further that can be pointed to to conclusively say how it would have gone otherwise, I say to each their own. Not to be dismissive, but there would be no point arguing this portion because it is purely subject to each of our personal readings. 

 

 

edit 2: looks like I confused the terms. Dahn is for lighteyes, Nahn is for darkeyes, but the rest stands lol

Edited October 31, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Tglassy]

Looking at the original post, because the rest is like reading a book, I don't understand why "obeying the king" would be grounds to lose respect for Kaladin.  The law is the law.  Laws can be unjust.  Kings can be bad.  They're still the king, and the law is still the law.  

 

Y'all bring up protests and talk about how no change has ever happened without violence.  To which I answer: Rome.  Rome persecuted the Christians from their inception until the Roman Emperor married one and let her raise the next Emperor as a Christian.  The Christians never once violently protested against Rome.  They couldn't.  If they'd tried, they'd have died.  Roman soldiers were the best in the world, and they were very good at killing.  And yet all of a sudden, Rome is a Christian Empire.  All without violence.  Yeah, the Crusades happened, but they were much, much later.  The initial change was peaceful.  Change can happen from within, peacefully.  

 

But regardless, authority is there for a reason.  Saying "Kaladin should have said screw you, i'll kill who I want" is like saying John Wilkes Booth or Lee Harvey Oswald were justified in their assassination of their respective Presidents.  You can dislike an authority figure, but that does not give you the right to kill them because you "believe it's the right thing to do."  It was not Kaladin's place to do what he did.  And the King, in this society, has the authority to execute any person he wishes, for any reason he wishes.  And Slander is a crime, even in America.  If a Newspaper reports something as true about a person and it turns out to be false, and they didn't do their research correctly, then they can be held liable.  As far as anyone knew, Amaram was an upstanding man.  While it sucks that evil men get into high positions by carefully cultivating a false aura of honor and dignity, it is what happens, and you cannot simply murder them because you can't think of a legal way to get at them.  

 

Because if you could, then every President would be assassinated the moment they took office by someone who believed they posed a threat to the people, whether they actually do or not.  Every boss of every company would have been murdered due to some perceived slight.  There would be no law, no order.  Anarchy is not a good thing.  Anarchy is being afraid that the people down the street won't like the color of your eye, so they'll drag you out in the street and murder you because they believe your eye color is a bad omen, and then get away with it cause there isn't anyone to stop them or punish them.  Law and Order protect the average citizen from the other average citizens.  It protects the minority from the majority.  The individual from the mob.  Yes, evil people can use the law to get their way, and if they are careful can get away with tremendous crimes, but that is not a criticism against the law.  That is a criticism against the human condition.  Will you only make exceptions for the really evil people?  But then who decides who the really evil people are?  What if someone decides that you're a really evil person?  Should they make an exception for you?  Or do you get rights to protect you from such mob tactics?  

 

If Kaladin had sucked in Stormlight and fought, Dalinar could not have defended him, as a General cannot have a soldier who refuses to submit to his authority, the same way Elend had to execute that soldier for hitting an officer.  Kaladin would have died.  The Bridgemen would have been disbanded, executed or sent back to their Bridge Runs, and later, Szeth would have killed Dalinar, Shallan would have been eaten by a Chasm Fiend (can't remember if that happened before or after, actually), and Odium would have won hand over fist before Oathbringer even started.  All because Kaladin would have been too blinded by hatred to realize that he was overstepping his authority.  And he was overstepping his authority.  

 

And if Dalinar had looked down at Kaladin when Kaladin made his ill advised pronouncement and said "You know, I trust this boy with everything.  I believe him. Amaram must be a traitor.  Ehlokar, you need to have Amaram executed at the behest of a child soldier that none of you met more than a month ago"...

 

...

 

I just can't really go on from there.  The fact that he even made a test to see if Amaram was what Kaladin said he was speaks volumes.  You can't just accuse people of something without proof, and expect to get your way!  Even if you know it in your heart that you are right!  

[Eluvianii]

20 hours ago, Vissy said:

Yelling at peoples' faces is literally the most efficient way to get changes done, though. Nothing would have happened and Dalinar would never have doubted Amaram as early as he did without Kaladin doing something. He made a mistake jailing Kaladin, and I think that's something he owes him for. That Adolin chose to spend days in prison with Kaladin in protest says it all really. 

It would have happened if Kaladin had been willing to trust Dalinar (by that point he hadn't told Dalinar about his experience with Amaram, right? I can't really remember), but he was so stubborn that all the proof in the world wouldn't convince him that a lighteyes could be completely trustworthy. Also, if anything I think Kaladin owes Dalinar for throwing him into prison, he literally saved his life by doing so. Adolin was against it and he was right too but he tends to not see the bigger picture. Letting Kaladin go would mean a big punch to Dalinar's reputation, which would give the other highlords yet another reason to band against him. Dalinar knows how to play and that's about the only reason he's been as succesful as he's been so far, actions like letting Kaladin go unpunished could have us without a bondsmith already. Politics are a thing, and in cases like this, ignoring them would be suicide.

Going back to Kaladin, I think he was right (obviously) in wanting to do something about Amaram but was wrong in his motives. Amaram was clearly doing bad things under the table and Kaladin was probably the only person who knew, but he didn't want to stop him because he was a bad person and that was the right thing, he wanted revenge. He was so blinded by that, he ignored all the holes in his plan and went for it thinking of that revenge as just and honorable.

The result was a good while on prison and the start of a broken bond, which I think says it all.

Thinking about it, he jumped into the duel because it was the honorable thing to do and no one else would do it, and yet, in the end he tried to take advantage of it, not that he didn't deserve something but it's like he forgot why he jumped into the fight in the first place.

[Gilphon]

He had told Dalinar about Amaram by that point. Dalinar said 'yeah, so, I can't really act on any of that without proof' and Kaladin interpreted that as brushing him off. Of course with the benefit of hindsight we can say that Kaladin was wrong to interpret it that way, and that Dalinar took his accusations completely seriously, but Kaladin's whole deal in WoR is that he can't convince himself to trust the Kholins and can't look past his grudge against Amaram, so when we reach the intersection of those things we get him wasting a golden opportunity to get legally get rid of Sadeas and getting himself thrown in prison for reasons that turned out to be totally unnecessary. 

Edited November 1, 2019 by Gilphon

[Aon Tia]

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

If Kaladin had sucked in Stormlight and fought, Dalinar could not have defended him, as a General cannot have a soldier who refuses to submit to his authority, the same way Elend had to execute that soldier for hitting an officer.  Kaladin would have died.  The Bridgemen would have been disbanded, executed or sent back to their Bridge Runs, and later, Szeth would have killed Dalinar, Shallan would have been eaten by a Chasm Fiend (can't remember if that happened before or after, actually), and Odium would have won hand over fist before Oathbringer even started.  All because Kaladin would have been too blinded by hatred to realize that he was overstepping his authority.  And he was overstepping his authority.  

Agreed. We should remember that Kaladin was a soldier for many years, before he became a slave and ended up in bridge 4. He understands command structure. He also knows the dire consequences of flouting authority so openly. And he is responsible for his bridgemen too. He can not throw it all away in a single moment of righteous anger.

2 hours ago, Eluvianii said:

he was so stubborn that all the proof in the world wouldn't convince him that a lighteyes could be completely trustworthy

I can understand the difficulty he had in trusting Dalinar. Yes, Dalinar gave up his shardblade to keep his word to Kaladin but that single gesture is not enough to wipe away all the years of betrayal that kaladin has faced by lighteyes. Amaram has, at this point, the same reputation as Dalinar and Kaladin had trusted the man too. Amaram had been good for him for years too. 

2 hours ago, Eluvianii said:

Going back to Kaladin, I think he was right (obviously) in wanting to do something about Amaram but was wrong in his motives. Amaram was clearly doing bad things under the table and Kaladin was probably the only person who knew, but he didn't want to stop him because he was a bad person and that was the right thing, he wanted revenge. He was so blinded by that, he ignored all the holes in his plan and went for it thinking of that revenge as just and honorable

This i agree with totally. In fact, i never thought of it like that. Yes Kaladins motives are not to warn Dalinar of a possible betrayal from amaram but of simply seeking revenge.