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Moral Miscalculations of Mr. Sanderson in Oathbringer


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Guest Parallax
On 9/30/2019 at 10:57 AM, Pathfinder said:

As I have responded to the thought experiment you posited below, I have a thought experiment for you. Have you read my post earlier in this thread? If we knew for a fact (not saying we do, as written, it is a thought experiment) that the screaming voices ending and Evi saying she forgives Dalinar is her and the people of Rathalas actually genuinely forgiving Dalinar, would that constitute as the PoV you are requesting? That the very people wronged are accepting Dalinar's request for forgiveness, and they are the ones giving him redemption?

Not to sound nitpicky, but the devil is in the details. How/Why did Dalinar beat Evi to death? Now I am never saying it is acceptable to beat your spouse. I am saying, was he still overwhelmed with the Thrill after the battle that, didn't see her, and struck out like when he killed some of his own soldiers in battle? Or are you saying he comes back from battle, and Evi argues with him about killing people, and he turns to her enraged by her disobedience and beats her to death? Because if it is the second, that does not fit with the character (to me) that we were presented with, regardless at what point we meet him. Even when he first married her and disliked her, he never laid a hand on her. Even when they argued there was never the slightest hint of him striking her. When younger Dalinar gloried in battle. In the contest. There is no battle in beating a helpless wife. There is no contest. So even at his worst, the Dalinar we know, I could not see voluntarily laying hands on Evi. Now if you are saying in this thought experiment, we are going to disregard the character, and arbitrarily state occurrences to find a line that people feel is too far, that is a different matter. But in your other post you stated:

"Line-drawing questions are difficult and in some cases any answer will be arbitrary (e.g. how many grains of sand do you need for a heap?). "

So if this thought experiment were to see how people would react to Dalinar if he beat his wife, despite that not being in character for Dalinar, then I do not see the point. 

Well there are no real world equivalents for Radiants either lol. You do not have to root for Dalinar either. No one is twisting your arm making you do so. If your reading of the novel resulted in you feeling Dalinar did too much for you to forgive him, that is your right and prerogative. But I do not see the author, nor anyone here saying you have to root for him. Just like Kaladin takes actions. Some people like him, some people dislike her. That doesn't mean the author is forcing people to root for Kaladin. Same thing with Shallan, Jasnah, Renarin, Navani, and etc. It is a story. You are entitled to take from it, and feel however you wish from it. Like Hoid's may monologues. Art is what the audience experiences. 

1. Regarding your thought experiment, I would find it very strange. Evi forgiving Dalinar makes sense: she loves him and Dalinar did not kill her intentionally. Neither of those things are true for people of Rathalas, so what is the logic of forgiving Dalinar from their perspective?

2. The point is not whether you think it fits with Dalinar's character. If Dalinar had beaten Evi to death in an argument and then burned down the city most readers would judge Dalinar much more harshly but we have gone from "burned thousands of people to death and unintentionally killed my wife" to "burned thousands of people to death and killed my wife" when you look at it objectively it hardly even registers. The experiment was meant to underscore how Dalinar benefits from the lack of any PoVs from inside Rathalas.

3. You have to root for the main protagonist if you can't you should stop reading. What saves the situation in Stormlight Archive is that you have a ton of options. 

On 9/30/2019 at 11:30 AM, The traveller said:

I am at a loss here in understanding the logic behind this thought experiment. It is not in line with Dalinars character. Where in the story did it give you the impression that he ever laid a hand on evi? He may not be in love with her, at times he may feel that she tests his patience but that does not mean that he ever hit her. It is a work of fiction yes, but there is fiction and then there is fiction. 

See the second paragraph of my response to Pathfinder in which I explain the purpose of the thought experiment. 

On 9/30/2019 at 11:43 AM, agrabes said:

2) I don't necessarily feel different about his overall character arc if Dalinar knowingly and intentionally kills Evi, but I do feel differently about how the in world characters should feel about him.  I think if he had actually done that, his arc would have to be different though.  The point of his arc was that his lust for battle had gotten out of control and that Rathalas was the point where the negative consequences got so extreme that he realized he had to radically change his life.  Killing his wife isn't really related to that.

3) You don't exactly "have" to root for historical figures in the same way that you don't "have" to root for Dalinar.  It's just that people hold up certain historical figures as great people - Julius Caesar,  Napoleon Bonaparte, many leaders on the side of the Allies in WW2, the list goes on.  But, you could argue that all of these people have committed crimes equal to or even greater than Dalinar's.  The point I'm making is (right or wrong) people are generally willing to forgive some types war crimes if there were extreme circumstances and they don't have a close relationship to the victims of those war crimes.  In terms of Honor's perpendicularity I think we should also remember that Honor does not really represent "Honor" in the way we think of Honor.  It actually represents the concept of following orders, following the law and other rules, doing what you  think is right, meeting societal expectations and things like that.  You can commit atrocities while still doing all of those things.  The Skybreakers show us that directly in world.  So in terms of Dalinar's actions aligning with the Honor shard's intent, they were probably not as far off from that as you might think.

1. For the purpose of the thought experiments see the second paragraph of my response to Pathfinder. However you also bring up an issue that has not been addressed, what happens if people find out what Dalinar did in Rathalas? As it stands very few people know of the extent of his crimes. Imagine if Kaladin found out ...

2. I am not arguing about Honor's intent. Oathbringer was Dalinar's redemption arc and he had to be forgiven so he could say the Third Ideal and summon Honor's perpendicularity. What I am objecting to is Dalinar's redemption arc itself, given what we have read in the books I don't see what Dalinar has done to redeem himself in regards to burning a city full of people. 

On 10/1/2019 at 4:33 AM, wallyrocket said:

From my personal point of view, everyone is redeemable from their actions.  This makes it easier for me to be on Dalinar's side.  It may seem contrary, but I also believe that no one deserves redemption; that would not satisfy the demands of justice.  However, I believe that mercy can be extended to those bound by justice and they can be forgiven and receive redemption, not because they deserve it, but because someone with authority is willing to offer it.  

I have done some things in my life that I am deeply ashamed of.  I've tried to fix what I could and learned and moved on to be a better person.  I've also had some horrible things done to me that still affect me to this day.  I try no to let those people and their actions rule my life and I have tried to forgive them (still working on it).  This is all an internal action that I must do.  But if I have hope for the redemption that I need, I surely need to be willing to offer it to others as well.

A bit of rambling on my beliefs, but it is because of this that I don't find it hard to follow Dalinar's arc and call him one of the "good guys" in the end.  It wasn't for his drinking and feeling sorry for himself.  It wasn't becasue he went and forgot it all and started doing good things.  It was becasue he remembered it all, accepted what he had done as a vile action, and is trying to do better now.

I was inspired by the story of Eva Kor, a holocost survivor.

There are tiers to this issue: (1) irredeemable, (2) redeemable given proper effort and attitude, (3) Not just redeemable but once forgiven will lead the forces of good. If you are in the second and third categories my question is what has Dalinar done to earn his redemption? You say you tried to fix what you could, Dalinar hasn't told his children what really happened to their mother, and so far as we know none of Knight Radiants know of the extent of the slaughter in Rathalas. 

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Okay... I think I understand the complaint know. I took me a little while.

Is this it?: Dalinar's arc felt like a redemption arc, but when you think about it, he hasn't really done anything to improve himself in relation specifically to his crimes at Ralthalas.   Correct me if I'm wrong.

From this perspective, I agree that this wasn't really much of a redemption arc, but that seems to be intentional. The whole purpose in Cultivation taking Dalinar's memories was so he wouldn't need to deal with them until he had developed enough to not let the memories cripple him like they had before. This way, Dalinar could change and progress in ways that let him deal with Odium in Thaylenah. He hasn't done anything to "redeem" himself of his actions, but that is understandable because he just got the memories back.

Oathbringer was about Dalinar progressing as a person, while not necessarily being "redeemed."  The end of Oathbringer is really the start of his redemption arc. He has finally come to accept that what he did was his fault.

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8 hours ago, Parallax said:

 As it stands very few people know of the extent of his crimes. Imagine if Kaladin found out ...

2. I am not arguing about Honor's intent. Oathbringer was Dalinar's redemption arc and he had to be forgiven so he could say the Third Ideal and summon Honor's perpendicularity. What I am objecting to is Dalinar's redemption arc itself, given what we have read in the books I don't see what Dalinar has done to redeem himself in regards to burning a city full of people. 

There are tiers to this issue: (1) irredeemable, (2) redeemable given proper effort and attitude, (3) Not just redeemable but once forgiven will lead the forces of good. If you are in the second and third categories my question is what has Dalinar done to earn his redemption? You say you tried to fix what you could, Dalinar hasn't told his children what really happened to their mother, and so far as we know none of Knight Radiants know of the extent of the slaughter in Rathalas. 

As it stands, Dalinar is not only planning to tell just the KRs of what he did, at the end of the book, he has written a whole book "Oathbringer" to tell the entire world what he has done in Rathalas.

with regard to forgiveness for Dalinar, i think it is not so much as Evi or the people of Rathalas who forgave him at the end of OB, but he i think, also, forgave himself. I think, what he does in Thalen City, in trying to protect it alone, even when no one stood with him, he felt for the first time, in a long long time, that i can forgive myself. 

He can not change the past, but he is confessing to the entire world, in the book that he wrote about the darkest moments of his life. His sons will know how their mother died, Kaladin will know what Dalinar did, bridge 4 will learn what dalinar had done. His allies will learn too. In fact, i dont think that this topic is fully finished in the books either, the fallout of his book is yet to happen. I think he is yet to earn the forgiveness of his sons. 

But still, also note, Hypothetical situations aside, as it stands in the book, Evi's death was a tragic accident. He did not intentionally kill his wife. So, do not be too surprised when he earns their forgiveness easily.

Forgiveness of Kaladin and bridge 4, i am more worried about. And it might be possible that their relationship is a little awkward in the next book.

Also,

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@ Parallax: The point is not whether you think it fits with Dalinar's character. If Dalinar had beaten Evi to death in an argument and then burned down the city most readers would judge Dalinar much more harshly but we have gone from "burned thousands of people to death and unintentionally killed my wife" to "burned thousands of people to death and killed my wife" when you look at it objectively it hardly even registers. The experiment was meant to underscore how Dalinar benefits from the lack of any PoVs from inside Rathalas.

   Evi is a victim of Rathalas too, she may not have any povs but i think her death is still impactful enough. Other pov that could have been possible is the rebel brightlord but also note that he was not exactly innocent in all of this. We may have empathised with him even less if his pov were provided. He was as much under the influence of Thrill at the time as Dalinar, and his actions were equally destructive and abhorrent. He threw away peace that Dalinar offered him, fed him wrong information, tried to ambush him and kill him, when Evi came to him begging him to surrender, she warned him the destruction that will follow, he instead put her in jail, did not evacuate his city even his family, etc. I think that in fact brandon could have put his pov in the book and that would have only served the readers to dislike him and forgive dalinar more easily. It would just serve to remind the readers that Dalinar was not the only one responsible but he was the only one who felt guilty about it, who was haunted about it. You think Sadeas lost even a single night's sleep over Rathalas? 

As far as adding the pov of some innocent victim from Rathalas people once in the book:

i dont think would have added any extra weight to the narrative. Brandon could have just said everyone died and thats it. But, he is mentioning their cries for help, cries full of terror and pain, over and over again in the book, which i think is sufficient to represent the brutality that is Rathalas Massacre. 

I dont think that readers are finding it easy to forgive Dalinar because the terror of Rathalas is not represented properly. I disagree.

I feel that Dalinar has earned the forgiveness and the love of the readers because of his actions now, the kind of person that he has become, the kind who wants to unify humanity, wants peace, who gave up his shards to save slaves, who could face a God of Hatred alone with a book in his hand and who refuse to let go of his pain and guilt. Who voes to not fall, and if he falls, who vows to rise each time and do better.

I can forgive him and so I think will his sons and Kaladin, eventually.

 

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11 hours ago, Parallax said:

 

1. For the purpose of the thought experiments see the second paragraph of my response to Pathfinder. However you also bring up an issue that has not been addressed, what happens if people find out what Dalinar did in Rathalas? As it stands very few people know of the extent of his crimes. Imagine if Kaladin found out ...

2. I am not arguing about Honor's intent. Oathbringer was Dalinar's redemption arc and he had to be forgiven so he could say the Third Ideal and summon Honor's perpendicularity. What I am objecting to is Dalinar's redemption arc itself, given what we have read in the books I don't see what Dalinar has done to redeem himself in regards to burning a city full of people. 

 

I do agree with you that the reason we don't feel as horrified by Dalinar's actions is because we don't get a perspective from someone with ties to Rathalas.  However, I am also arguing that this reaction is (right or wrong) normal and common throughout history.  Unless the crime is extremely reprehensible (i.e. concentration camps, torture, etc), people forgive or just simply don't process and mentally engage with war crimes unless they are personally impacted.

I think, as others have pointed out, most people do know the extent of Dalinar's crimes.  The only thing they don't know is that Evi was caught up in Dalinar's fires rather than being killed by the people of Rathalas beforehand.  There was a polite veneer put over what he did for the official records, but anyone who knew anything understood that he really just burned down the city in a fury.  That's why people react to him the way they do, especially the foreigners.  

In terms of the last point, what I'm trying to say is in your previous post you seemed to be implying that Dalinar should not be able to summon Honor's perpendicularity because he is too dishonorable and/or his moral character is not in alignment with Honor or the morals of the Bondsmith order.  I disagree.  It sounds like I may have misunderstood and you are now saying he shouldn't be able to summon the perpendicularity because he hasn't satisfactorily completed a redemption arc?  I don't think that follows - whether or not he's completed redemption is unrelated to his ability to summon the perpendicularity.  That is only related to whether or not he has said the correct number of ideals and aligned himself with the Bondsmith order and the Honor shard.

I would also say that maybe rather than a redemption arc, I would call it a reformation arc.  He has reformed himself to be a better person who would not burn down a city again.  His redemption will start only now - now that he has become a better person he will seek to right the wrongs of the past, etc.

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On 10/3/2019 at 10:39 PM, Parallax said:

1. Regarding your thought experiment, I would find it very strange. Evi forgiving Dalinar makes sense: she loves him and Dalinar did not kill her intentionally. Neither of those things are true for people of Rathalas, so what is the logic of forgiving Dalinar from their perspective?

You can totally find it strange the idea the people of Rathalas forgiving Dalinar. However based on this thought experiment, we are going off of a few very real, very verified facts. First we know for a fact that the spiritual self remains in the spiritual realm for a very very long time (WoB back that up). Second we know for a fact that to Dalinar, he heard Evi and the people of the Rift screaming in his head. And finally we know for a fact that the screaming ended when the voice in his head that sounded like Evi forgave him. So the thought experiment is taking those three facts, and extending it to if we knew for a fact that those voices were in fact the spiritual self of Evi and the people of Rathalas, and Evi forgiving Dalinar silenced not only her own voice, but also the people of Rathalas, then it would be logical by extension to believe that the people of Rathalas also forgave Dalinar. Otherwise he would still be hearing them scream. So in this thought experiment, if we knew for a fact that the people of Rathalas forgave Dalinar, would that count as the PoV you were asking for? Would that satisfy your requirements for redemption? You can feel free to disagree with their logic, but the thought experiment is not whether or not you agree with their logic, it is would their forgiveness constitute as their PoV for terms of redemption? The aggrieved party has accepted Dalinar's punishment. 

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2. The point is not whether you think it fits with Dalinar's character. If Dalinar had beaten Evi to death in an argument and then burned down the city most readers would judge Dalinar much more harshly but we have gone from "burned thousands of people to death and unintentionally killed my wife" to "burned thousands of people to death and killed my wife" when you look at it objectively it hardly even registers. The experiment was meant to underscore how Dalinar benefits from the lack of any PoVs from inside Rathalas.

But it does matter. It would not be logical otherwise. We could say how would you feel about Adolin beating women to death? Would that change how you feel about him? If the reason he never settled down, is he abused every woman he dated? That is completely out of character for Adolin, so how would such a thought experiment teach us anything? Dalinar beating Evi is completely out of character for him. So how would such a thought experiment teach us anything?

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3. You have to root for the main protagonist if you can't you should stop reading. What saves the situation in Stormlight Archive is that you have a ton of options. 

No I do not. You believe you do, but I disagree. 

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See the second paragraph of my response to Pathfinder in which I explain the purpose of the thought experiment. 

1. For the purpose of the thought experiments see the second paragraph of my response to Pathfinder. However you also bring up an issue that has not been addressed, what happens if people find out what Dalinar did in Rathalas? As it stands very few people know of the extent of his crimes. Imagine if Kaladin found out ...

See my earlier response

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2. I am not arguing about Honor's intent. Oathbringer was Dalinar's redemption arc and he had to be forgiven so he could say the Third Ideal and summon Honor's perpendicularity. What I am objecting to is Dalinar's redemption arc itself, given what we have read in the books I don't see what Dalinar has done to redeem himself in regards to burning a city full of people. 

See my earlier response

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17 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

You can totally find it strange the idea the people of Rathalas forgiving Dalinar. However based on this thought experiment, we are going off of a few very real, very verified facts. First we know for a fact that the spiritual self remains in the spiritual realm for a very very long time (WoB back that up). Second we know for a fact that to Dalinar, he heard Evi and the people of the Rift screaming in his head. And finally we know for a fact that the screaming ended when the voice in his head that sounded like Evi forgave him. So the thought experiment is taking those three facts, and extending it to if we knew for a fact that those voices were in fact the spiritual self of Evi and the people of Rathalas, and Evi forgiving Dalinar silenced not only her own voice, but also the people of Rathalas, then it would be logical by extension to believe that the people of Rathalas also forgave Dalinar. Otherwise he would still be hearing them scream. So in this thought experiment, if we knew for a fact that the people of Rathalas forgave Dalinar, would that count as the PoV you were asking for? Would that satisfy your requirements for redemption? You can feel free to disagree with their logic, but the thought experiment is not whether or not you agree with their logic, it is would their forgiveness constitute as their PoV for terms of redemption? The aggrieved party has accepted Dalinar's punishment. 

Sorry, to ask about a tangent, but can you point me to the WOB you are thinking of?  I was under the impression that it took Investiture to keep a cognitive shadow around for longer than a matter of minutes-to-hours

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I think he is not talking about cognitive shadow here. He is talking about the fading of spiritual aspect in the spiritual realm which takes time. That is true also because dalinar keeps hearing their screams

i also thought that the reason dalinar hears the screams is because of the thrill. Note that Szeth also hears the screams when he nears the red mist and then he gives the sphere to lift and says nope I can’t go in there. So I think it is thrill which is causing them to hear those screams. 

I think specifically when they have killed under the influence of thrill then it happens

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2 hours ago, Quantus said:

Sorry, to ask about a tangent, but can you point me to the WOB you are thinking of?  I was under the impression that it took Investiture to keep a cognitive shadow around for longer than a matter of minutes-to-hours

So took a whole lotta digging but I found it! The WoB is open to interpretation to a degree, which is why I said this is a thought experiment. We know there is some of "you" left in the spiritual realm after you die for a long time. Now whether that "you" is enough to provide forgiveness is an unknown, but for the purpose of the thought experiment, I was asking Parallax if we hypothetically knew for a fact it was, would that count as a PoV of the people of the Rift. Also as I typed my response to traveller below, I recalled another WoB that confirmed the screams are associated with the spiritual realm, which I feel ties in and supports the idea that it is Evi's and the people of the Rift's spiritual selves that are screaming at Dalinar. Again, it is not confirmed, and it is my own theory/personal view of it, but for the purpose of the thought experiment, I was asking to treat it as true/fact. 

 

Argent

Is death in the Cosmere a two-stage process? It seems to me like (under normal circumstances) the body dies first, sending the mind fully in the Cognitive Realm; the soul, presumably, remains in the Spiritual for the entire process. I am a little unclear on what happens after that though - what is it that passes into the Beyond, just the mind? Does the soul / spiritual aspect / Spiritweb just kind of... break down in the Spiritual Realm, turn into free iInvestiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. It's a two stage process, and most of what you said is correct. The odd thing is, though, that the Spiritweb doesn't completely break down (just like your body doesn't immediately break down.) Even after a long time, there's a record of that Spiritweb in the Spiritual Realm.

Oversleep

Wait wait wait. If there is a "corpse" of Spiritweb (so to speak) and actual, physical corpse is also there... Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy? Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy if you really know what you're doing and have some useful powers (manipulating Connection comes to mind)?

Could you patch the remnants of the Spiritweb and staple it to the body and end up with some zombie-zombie Lifeless? You'd still need to give it a mind but I figure Awakening is just doing that?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 5, 2017)

1 hour ago, The traveller said:

I think he is not talking about cognitive shadow here. He is talking about the fading of spiritual aspect in the spiritual realm which takes time. That is true also because dalinar keeps hearing their screams

Yep, thank you for explaining it wonderfully!

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i also thought that the reason dalinar hears the screams is because of the thrill. Note that Szeth also hears the screams when he nears the red mist and then he gives the sphere to lift and says nope I can’t go in there. So I think it is thrill which is causing them to hear those screams. 

We do know the screams are a cosmere wide effect, so it isn't strictly limited to the Thrill

 

Blightsong

Is anything magical going on with the screams Szeth hears?

Brandon Sanderson

Uhhh, Szeth's screams. Uhhm, I'm trying to decide how to answer this. It is not, see here's the thing. What we would call magical may not be considered magical in the Cosmere, but it depends on your definition of magic. Would Szeth if he were on our planet and have done those things would he hear those screams, probably not, but would someone else in the Cosmere who had gone through what he had gone through hear those screams, yes.

Blightsong

So it has to do with the spiritual realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yea, mhmm, yea.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

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@Pathfinder You are welcome 

ok got it, so it is more due to spiritual aspects lingering in that realm, 

but is it possible that when people die in violent death in great numbers like at rathalas, or by szeth in vedinar or like at manywar? 

May be such events leave more of an echo and haunt their perpetrators much more

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1 hour ago, The traveller said:

@Pathfinder You are welcome 

ok got it, so it is more due to spiritual aspects lingering in that realm, 

but is it possible that when people die in violent death in great numbers like at rathalas, or by szeth in vedinar or like at manywar? 

May be such events leave more of an echo and haunt their perpetrators much more

Could be. All that spiritual data hanging out in the spiritual realm at the same time. Though, then shouldn't everyone involved hear it as well? Like the soldiers that rolled the barrels in and set fire to it? We are led to believe Sadeas never heard screaming, even though he was just as responsible. Maybe you have to genuinely feel what you did was wrong to hear the screaming and gain a connection to the spiritual remains of the deceased? Not saying I disagree with you. Just throwing things out to think on. 

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When it comes to the screams, and Dalinar hearing Evi "forgive him"... 

Evi is gone. So are all of the victims of Rathalas. In all of the cases of the screams in the Cosmere, I believe that what's happened is that through whatever means, the person has been connected to the Spiritual aspects of those people they killed. The screams aren't actually those people... It's their Cognitive aspects interpretation of this people. 

I believe that when Dalinar heard "Evi" forgive him... It was himself reaching a point that he could forgive himself, and because of that his own interpretation of her forgave him. 

Without being able to do that, without being able to believe he is not the man he was, he can't be better. 

Szeth has the same issue. 

Elantris spoilers. 

Spoiler

Dilaf carried the screams of his dead wife with him right up to the point he died. 

Evi herself does not exist to forgive Dalinar. What he thinks of how she'd have perceived him is wrapped up in his Connection to her. 

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@Calderis I totally agree :)

in fact I made the same argument in an earlier post that I believe that evi’s Voice was basically dalinar’s sub-conscious telling him that he has earned forgiveness.

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with regard to forgiveness for Dalinar, i think it is not so much as Evi or the people of Rathalas who forgave him at the end of OB, but he i think, also, forgave himself. I think, what he does in Thalen City, in trying to protect it alone, even when no one stood with him, he felt for the first time, in a long long time, that i can forgive myself. 

 

For the first time in a long time when he actually remembered all the events, he has felt that he has earned forgiveness 

So I like that dalinar asked for forgiveness of cultivation and nightwatcher and for the longest time I thought that he got a different boon and bane but that of forgetting and then slowly remembering but

actually in the end he did get what he asked for. He got the forgiveness he asked for. 

I think it was very important that he should feel himself that he has grown enough that he can earn forgiveness. That if evi were there she would have forgiven me. 

Also it is interesting that it appears that nightwatcher/cultivation probably give the person the capacity to gain their boon 

and dalinar totally got it.

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8 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Could be. All that spiritual data hanging out in the spiritual realm at the same time. Though, then shouldn't everyone involved hear it as well? Like the soldiers that rolled the barrels in and set fire to it? We are led to believe Sadeas never heard screaming, even though he was just as responsible. Maybe you have to genuinely feel what you did was wrong to hear the screaming and gain a connection to the spiritual remains of the deceased? Not saying I disagree with you. Just throwing things out to think on. 

That is why I was of the opinion that spiritual aspects lingering may be one reason but the fact that only dalinar or szeth hears them has something to do with the fact that they both acted under the influence of thrill while killing them. 

I don’t think that sadeas was really that much affected by thrill in rathalas, he is not very passionate he is more cold and calculated actions type of guy and so is taravangian, I guess. May be that’s why he can not hear any screams of so many deaths he has caused in Vedenar etc

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13 hours ago, Calderis said:

When it comes to the screams, and Dalinar hearing Evi "forgive him"... 

Evi is gone. So are all of the victims of Rathalas. In all of the cases of the screams in the Cosmere, I believe that what's happened is that through whatever means, the person has been connected to the Spiritual aspects of those people they killed. The screams aren't actually those people... It's their Cognitive aspects interpretation of this people. 

I believe that when Dalinar heard "Evi" forgive him... It was himself reaching a point that he could forgive himself, and because of that his own interpretation of her forgave him. 

Without being able to do that, without being able to believe he is not the man he was, he can't be better. 

Szeth has the same issue. 

Elantris spoilers. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Dilaf carried the screams of his dead wife with him right up to the point he died. 

Evi herself does not exist to forgive Dalinar. What he thinks of how she'd have perceived him is wrapped up in his Connection to her. 

Totally respect your opinion/theory on the subject. But just to clarify, for the purpose of the thought experiment I was asking Parallax, we were treating it as if it was in fact Evi and the people of Rathalas. You are perfectly entitled to disagree with the theory, but that was not the purpose of the thought experiment. Wasn't debating whether or not it was Evi and the people of Rathalas. For the purpose of the thought experiment, it is Evi and the people of Rathalas. So treating it as actually them, and treating the silencing of their voices as forgiveness, would that constitute the PoV Parallax is looking for?

11 hours ago, The traveller said:

That is why I was of the opinion that spiritual aspects lingering may be one reason but the fact that only dalinar or szeth hears them has something to do with the fact that they both acted under the influence of thrill while killing them. 

I don’t think that sadeas was really that much affected by thrill in rathalas, he is not very passionate he is more cold and calculated actions type of guy and so is taravangian, I guess. May be that’s why he can not hear any screams of so many deaths he has caused in Vedenar etc

Sadeas does confirm in the books that he feels the Thrill. He is also very passionate about taking out Dalinar. There are a few PoVs of Sadeas where we see him think that way. Also considering it was the entire army that carried out the burning, I think it would be safe to say there had to be the occasional soldier consumed by the thrill that slaughtered whoever was in front of them. Or here's a thought, what about the civil war in Jah Keved? It was confirmed via Taravangian that the Thrill hung out there, and made the fighting carry on for days long after it would have made sense to stop. That the slaughter on all sides was massive. But I do not recall soldiers mentioning hearing screaming. So my theory at least is the person has to genuinely feel remorse about what they did, and have a connection to those that died to hear screaming from the spiritual aspect left over from their death. In response to the Elantris reference:

Spoiler

 

It could be said Dilaf deep down blames himself. He said 

 

"When she fell sick, I took her to Elantris" Dilaf mumbled, his legs pulled tightly against his chest "I knew it was pagan, I knew it was blasphemous, but even forty years as a Dakhor wasn't enough to keep me away .... not when I thought Elantris could save her. Elantris can heal, they said, while Dakhor cannot. And I took her. The changed her" He whispered. "They said the spell went wrong, but I know the truth. They knew me, and they hated me. Why, then, did they have to put their curse on Seala? Her skin turned black, her hair fell out, and she began to die. She screamed at night, yelling that the pain was eating her from the inside. Eventually she threw herself off the city wall. I found her at the bottom, still alive. Still alive, despite the fall. And I burned her. She never stopped screaming. 

 

So to me, deep down Dilaf blames himself. Had he not been weak, and forsaken his religion, she would not have suffered. Had he not been who he is, the Elantrian would not have punished her. In his mind his wife suffered for who and what he is. Now he ultimately directed that hatred towards Elantris, but the way he said that, made it clear to me, her screams are his personal punishment in his mind for his sacrilege and weakness resulting in her torment. 

 

 

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@Pathfinder yup that makes sense. You have to feel remorse explains both szeth and dalinar hearing the screams. 

You have to be close to them does not seem to apply on szeth though

i am not saying sadeas could not feel the thrill, I think everyone does but the extent to which effects someone varies, so sadeas is not that much ruled by the thrill like dalinar is

Edited by The traveller
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26 minutes ago, The traveller said:

@Pathfinder yup that makes sense. You have to feel remorse explains both szeth and dalinar hearing the screams. 

You have to be close to them does not seem to apply on szeth though

i am not saying sadeas could not feel the thrill, I think everyone does but the extent to which effects someone varies, so sadeas is not that much ruled by the thrill like dalinar is

Good point regarding Szeth, though I was meaning Connection with a capital C. True Szeth wasn't personally close with any of his victims, but it appears to me he formed a cosmeric connection. I also theorize that like strong emotions will allow you to communicate/be influenced by Shards (As we have seen with Odium, Ruin, and

Spoiler

Kelsier

), that strong emotions regarding people can result in forming a cosmeric Connection. So I do not think you have to know the person on a personal level to form a Connection to them. 

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On 10/3/2019 at 11:22 PM, ChickenLiberty said:

Is this it?: Dalinar's arc felt like a redemption arc, but when you think about it, he hasn't really done anything to improve himself in relation specifically to his crimes at Ralthalas.   Correct me if I'm wrong.

From this perspective, I agree that this wasn't really much of a redemption arc, but that seems to be intentional. The whole purpose in Cultivation taking Dalinar's memories was so he wouldn't need to deal with them until he had developed enough to not let the memories cripple him like they had before. This way, Dalinar could change and progress in ways that let him deal with Odium in Thaylenah. He hasn't done anything to "redeem" himself of his actions, but that is understandable because he just got the memories back.

Oathbringer was about Dalinar progressing as a person, while not necessarily being "redeemed."  The end of Oathbringer is really the start of his redemption arc. He has finally come to accept that what he did was his fault.

My position is stronger than that: given what Dalinar has done he is beyond redemption. But what you state is another, albeit weaker, complaint. Finally there is the issue that there is difference between a character redeeming themselves for something they have done in the past (say by an act of self-sacrifice) and not only redeeming themselves but then also becoming the leader of the forces of good. 

A big future redemption arc for Dalinar (if it actually happens) doesn't work. It is inconsistent with the whole episode in which the readers were worried about Dalinar killing a single 6-year old. Also a character usually goes through a redemption arc to become a hero not the other way around. 

On 10/4/2019 at 8:12 AM, The traveller said:

As it stands, Dalinar is not only planning to tell just the KRs of what he did, at the end of the book, he has written a whole book "Oathbringer" to tell the entire world what he has done in Rathalas.

with regard to forgiveness for Dalinar, i think it is not so much as Evi or the people of Rathalas who forgave him at the end of OB, but he i think, also, forgave himself. I think, what he does in Thalen City, in trying to protect it alone, even when no one stood with him, he felt for the first time, in a long long time, that i can forgive myself. 

He can not change the past, but he is confessing to the entire world, in the book that he wrote about the darkest moments of his life. His sons will know how their mother died, Kaladin will know what Dalinar did, bridge 4 will learn what dalinar had done. His allies will learn too. In fact, i dont think that this topic is fully finished in the books either, the fallout of his book is yet to happen. I think he is yet to earn the forgiveness of his sons. 

But still, also note, Hypothetical situations aside, as it stands in the book, Evi's death was a tragic accident. He did not intentionally kill his wife. So, do not be too surprised when he earns their forgiveness easily.

Forgiveness of Kaladin and bridge 4, i am more worried about. And it might be possible that their relationship is a little awkward in the next book.

Also, Evi is a victim of Rathalas too, she may not have any povs but i think her death is still impactful enough. Other pov that could have been possible is the rebel brightlord but also note that he was not exactly innocent in all of this. We may have empathised with him even less if his pov were provided. He was as much under the influence of Thrill at the time as Dalinar, and his actions were equally destructive and abhorrent. He threw away peace that Dalinar offered him, fed him wrong information, tried to ambush him and kill him, when Evi came to him begging him to surrender, she warned him the destruction that will follow, he instead put her in jail, did not evacuate his city even his family, etc. I think that in fact brandon could have put his pov in the book and that would have only served the readers to dislike him and forgive dalinar more easily. It would just serve to remind the readers that Dalinar was not the only one responsible but he was the only one who felt guilty about it, who was haunted about it. You think Sadeas lost even a single night's sleep over Rathalas? 

As far as adding the pov of some innocent victim from Rathalas people once in the book:

i dont think would have added any extra weight to the narrative. Brandon could have just said everyone died and thats it. But, he is mentioning their cries for help, cries full of terror and pain, over and over again in the book, which i think is sufficient to represent the brutality that is Rathalas Massacre. 

I dont think that readers are finding it easy to forgive Dalinar because the terror of Rathalas is not represented properly. I disagree.

I feel that Dalinar has earned the forgiveness and the love of the readers because of his actions now, the kind of person that he has become, the kind who wants to unify humanity, wants peace, who gave up his shards to save slaves, who could face a God of Hatred alone with a book in his hand and who refuse to let go of his pain and guilt. Who voes to not fall, and if he falls, who vows to rise each time and do better.

I can forgive him and so I think will his sons and Kaladin, eventually.

1. A public confession is not the same as redeeming yourself. 

2. Tanalan is not the only other possible PoV. You can have the PoV of a 11 year old girl trying to rescue her younger brothers from a burning building in the city, failing to do that and passing out from smoke inhalation.

3. You can't blame Tanalan either, He prepared a calculated trap for Dalinar (who is not a civilian) which he survived. Responding to the trap by slaughtering of tens of thousands of civilians is just monstrous. 

4. Here is an interesting hypothetical: Dalinar publishes Oathbringer, sometime later someone shows up in Urithiru, claims to be a survivor of Rathalas who has lost all of her family in the Rift. Thanks Dalinar for confessing to his heinous crime, gives him 10 days to put his affairs in order and then surrender himself so he can be slain by her (this could have been the same PoV character I mention in #2). Hard to see how anyone would take Dalinar's side. The reason we don't have the PoV I mention and the subsequent confrontation is author's choice and that has been my point all along. Brandon Sanderson really messed up the moral calculus here by effectively sweeping under the rug one of the most evil acts we have seen on screen in Stormlight.  

On 10/4/2019 at 10:31 AM, agrabes said:

In terms of the last point, what I'm trying to say is in your previous post you seemed to be implying that Dalinar should not be able to summon Honor's perpendicularity because he is too dishonorable and/or his moral character is not in alignment with Honor or the morals of the Bondsmith order.  I disagree.  It sounds like I may have misunderstood and you are now saying he shouldn't be able to summon the perpendicularity because he hasn't satisfactorily completed a redemption arc?  I don't think that follows - whether or not he's completed redemption is unrelated to his ability to summon the perpendicularity.  That is only related to whether or not he has said the correct number of ideals and aligned himself with the Bondsmith order and the Honor shard.

I would also say that maybe rather than a redemption arc, I would call it a reformation arc.  He has reformed himself to be a better person who would not burn down a city again.  His redemption will start only now - now that he has become a better person he will seek to right the wrongs of the past, etc.

The argument is not that Dalinar should not be able to summon Honor's perpendicularity because of some in-world mechanic. The point is doing so turns him into the hero of the story without resolving his most horrible crime! Also it is inconsistent with the whole period in which we are left to worry about whether or not he killed the 6-year old Tanalan. So as a reader I am supposed to care for a single child but the killing of tens of thousands of civilians should not bother me and I should cheer when Dalinar is summoning the perpendicularity. 

And the reformation idea holds little appeal to me. A war criminal has reformed himself not be a war criminal anymore, and that is enough for us not only to forgive him but also place him at the top of the people fighting Odium?

On 10/7/2019 at 2:30 PM, Pathfinder said:

You can totally find it strange the idea the people of Rathalas forgiving Dalinar. However based on this thought experiment, we are going off of a few very real, very verified facts. First we know for a fact that the spiritual self remains in the spiritual realm for a very very long time (WoB back that up). Second we know for a fact that to Dalinar, he heard Evi and the people of the Rift screaming in his head. And finally we know for a fact that the screaming ended when the voice in his head that sounded like Evi forgave him. So the thought experiment is taking those three facts, and extending it to if we knew for a fact that those voices were in fact the spiritual self of Evi and the people of Rathalas, and Evi forgiving Dalinar silenced not only her own voice, but also the people of Rathalas, then it would be logical by extension to believe that the people of Rathalas also forgave Dalinar. Otherwise he would still be hearing them scream. So in this thought experiment, if we knew for a fact that the people of Rathalas forgave Dalinar, would that count as the PoV you were asking for? Would that satisfy your requirements for redemption? You can feel free to disagree with their logic, but the thought experiment is not whether or not you agree with their logic, it is would their forgiveness constitute as their PoV for terms of redemption? The aggrieved party has accepted Dalinar's punishment. 

But it does matter. It would not be logical otherwise. We could say how would you feel about Adolin beating women to death? Would that change how you feel about him? If the reason he never settled down, is he abused every woman he dated? That is completely out of character for Adolin, so how would such a thought experiment teach us anything? Dalinar beating Evi is completely out of character for him. So how would such a thought experiment teach us anything?

If the people of the Rift had forgiven Dalinar through some mechanism that would help but then one is tempted to ask "Why are they forgiving him?" They have no reason whatsoever. Evi would have had good reasons, her death was accidental, she loved him, they had children.

The taught experiment meant to teach you the following: the reason you are discounting Dalinar's crime at the Rift is because you don't have any tangible connection (in the form of a PoV) to the victims.

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2 minutes ago, Parallax said:

Here is an interesting hypothetical: Dalinar publishes Oathbringer, sometime later someone shows up in Urithiru, claims to be a survivor of Rathalas who has lost all of her family in the Rift. Thanks Dalinar for confessing to his heinous crime, gives him 10 days to put his affairs in order and then surrender himself so he can be slain by her (this could have been the same PoV character I mention in #2). Hard to see how anyone would take Dalinar's side. The reason we don't have the PoV I mention and the subsequent confrontation is author's choice and that has been my point all along. Brandon Sanderson really messed up the moral calculus here by effectively sweeping under the rug one of the most evil acts we have seen on screen in Stormlight.  

Except again. That's not justice. Killing Dalinar accomplishes nothing. Revenge does not restore anything. 

Killing him would cause momentary gratification for the survivor and then they'd return to a place of suffering and lose a focus for their hatred. They'd be worse than they were before they killed him because they'd no longer have anyone to blame for why they still hurt. 

Vengence and justice are not the same thing, and Vengence is not "moral." it just continues a cycle of hate. 

The idea that punishment somehow "fixes" what's been done is inherently flawed.

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9 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Except again. That's not justice. Killing Dalinar accomplishes nothing. Revenge does not restore anything. 

Killing him would cause momentary gratification for the survivor and then they'd return to a place of suffering and lose a focus for their hatred. They'd be worse than they were before they killed him because they'd no longer have anyone to blame for why they still hurt. 

Vengence and justice are not the same thing, and Vengence is not "moral." it just continues a cycle of hate. 

The idea that punishment somehow "fixes" what's been done is inherently flawed.

1. By your logic we can't punish any wrongdoing.

2. I said nothing about punishment. I just gave a hypothetical scenario in which the readers would feel very differently about Dalinar and noted that the absence of such a perspective is a choice the author made. 

3. In the hypothetical you are talking about a woman who has lost everyone she loved and everything she had because of Dalinar. She thinks death is the just punishment for what Dalinar did (compare this with how Kaladin feels about Amaram and you will see that the hypothetical woman is in fact quite calm and collected). 

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27 minutes ago, Parallax said:

moral calculus

I'm interested to know what this term entails.

The use of these two words in the same term scares me.

Apart... sure. Together... 

Given forgiveness(x) = |crime(x)| + Intent(x)/√(societal views)

Find Dt forgiveness(Dalinar) 

Yikes.

Edited by ChickenLiberty
Fixed my moral calculus
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6 minutes ago, Parallax said:

By your logic we can't punish any wrongdoing.

False. Punishment should be used to teach. The focus should be to change future behavior not alter the past. 

6 minutes ago, Parallax said:

I said nothing about punishment. I just gave a hypothetical scenario in which the readers would feel very differently about Dalinar and noted that the absence of such a perspective is a choice the author made.

Sure some would. I wouldn't. The situation would not be changed. It would be just as complicated on Dalinar's end. The feelings on the part of the survivor would not change my feelings for him no matter how much I empathize with her. 

8 minutes ago, Parallax said:

In the hypothetical you are talking about a woman who has lost everyone she loved and everything she had because of Dalinar. She thinks death is the just punishment for what Dalinar did (compare this with how Kaladin feels about Amaram and you will see that the hypothetical woman is in fact quite calm and collected)

Regardless of her demeanor, she'd be no less wrong than Kaladin. 

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11 minutes ago, Parallax said:

Finally there is the issue that there is difference between a character redeeming themselves for something they have done in the past (say by an act of self-sacrifice) and not only redeeming themselves but then also becoming the leader of the forces of good. 

Dalinar is currently choosing to do good.  I can't really see why you are objecting to this.

12 minutes ago, Parallax said:

My position is stronger than that: given what Dalinar has done he is beyond redemption

Shrugs.  Then it does not matter what he does or does not do currently.  He is beyond redemption anyway so it would not matter weather he caved to Odium or not (from a moral perspective).

13 minutes ago, Parallax said:

A big future redemption arc for Dalinar (if it actually happens) doesn't work. It is inconsistent with the whole episode in which the readers were worried about Dalinar killing a single 6-year old. Also a character usually goes through a redemption arc to become a hero not the other way around. 

I do not understand this at all.  Sure we worried Dalinar killed a 6 year old.  He did not.  We were glad.  Annnd?  How does the fact that he previously was not an infanticide mean that he is now not currently redeemed.

16 minutes ago, Parallax said:

1. A public confession is not the same as redeeming yourself. 

Oathbringer is not intended as a confession.  He strait up says it is a warning and a lesson.  I was the monster I fear we all can be.  Dalinar is trying to educate people so that the Rift does not happen again.  In a way he is preventing something equivalent to the Rift. 

18 minutes ago, Parallax said:

2. Tanalan is not the only other possible PoV. You can have the PoV of a 11 year old girl trying to rescue her younger brothers from a burning building in the city, failing to do that and passing out from smoke inhalation.

That is depressing.  I also don't see what purpose it serves.  Sure Dalinar's actions were pretty evil but I don't see why making the experience worse is a good thing.

19 minutes ago, Parallax said:

3. You can't blame Tanalan either, He prepared a calculated trap for Dalinar (who is not a civilian) which he survived. Responding to the trap by slaughtering of tens of thousands of civilians is just monstrous. 

I can and do blame Tanalan.  Once Dalinar survived I was hoping that he would get his in a verry bad way.  The fact that Dalinar is a civilian is immaterial.  Some actions in warfare are unjustifiable.  Tanalan endangered his own people via rebelling.  He did not have to do so Gavilar offered him several deals.  He then refused a duel which would have settled things personally.  He then was offered several deals by Dalinar which he refused.  He then took advantage of the fact that the enemy general wanted to help him to set up and betray him.  This means that he is violating his word on several accounts.  He is betraying Dalinar personally.  He kills several battalions of people whose lives were entrusted to his honor and then he has the audacity to try and fight after he knows his plan has failed and has been warned that he can't win.  Even in our world his actions prior to Dalinar burning down the Rift would have earned him and his severe punishment.

28 minutes ago, Parallax said:

. 4. Here is an interesting hypothetical: Dalinar publishes Oathbringer, sometime later someone shows up in Urithiru, claims to be a survivor of Rathalas who has lost all of her family in the Rift. Thanks Dalinar for confessing to his heinous crime, gives him 10 days to put his affairs in order and then surrender himself so he can be slain by her (this could have been the same PoV character I mention in #2). Hard to see how anyone would take Dalinar's side. The reason we don't have the PoV I mention and the subsequent confrontation is author's choice and that has been my point all along. Brandon Sanderson really messed up the moral calculus here by effectively sweeping under the rug one of the most evil acts we have seen on screen in Stormlight.  

I am prepared to take Dalinar's side in this. R = rift survivor D=Dalinar J=Jasnah

R: in order

D: Kind of in the middle of something.  The world is ending.  You sure this can't wait.

R: You have confessed and deserve execution.

D: If I am not around to stop this we all die so maybe no?

R: But you deserve it!

J: Define deserve.  Dalinar is under no legal obligation.  If you are referring to moral obligation that is a matter of some debate and as most of humanity is not suicidal I think it best that Dalinar sticks around.  Besides.  What possible good will Dalinar's death do?

33 minutes ago, Parallax said:

The argument is not that Dalinar should not be able to summon Honor's perpendicularity because of some in-world mechanic. The point is doing so turns him into the hero of the story without resolving his most horrible crime!

His most horrible crime is in the past and cannot be resolved.  Dalinar chose to learn from his mistakes as apposed to refusing to look at them.  This makes him a hero.

38 minutes ago, Parallax said:

And the reformation idea holds little appeal to me. A war criminal has reformed himself not be a war criminal anymore, and that is enough for us not only to forgive him but also place him at the top of the people fighting Odium?

A war criminal who fully understands the costs of his actions and has resolved to do everything he can to stop anyone from ever doing so again.  Try watching Violet Evergarden.  Reformed killers can make extremely compelling protagonists.  If this does not appeal to you that is fine.  You do you.

42 minutes ago, Parallax said:

The taught experiment meant to teach you the following: the reason you are discounting Dalinar's crime at the Rift is because you don't have any tangible connection (in the form of a PoV) to the victims.

We have tangible connections to Sadeas and yet I still don't care about his brutal murder.  I'm with Shallan.

23 minutes ago, Parallax said:

1. By your logic we can't punish any wrongdoing.

Of course we can.  When punishment serves as a deterrent to further wrongdoing it serves a purpose.  Currently Dalinar would not commit such an action and he is doing his best to stop it happening in the future.

24 minutes ago, Parallax said:

2. I said nothing about punishment. I just gave a hypothetical scenario in which the readers would feel very differently about Dalinar and noted that the absence of such a perspective is a choice the author made. 

Not really.  I would think that the RIft survivor was being stupid.  Clearly no one is going to kill Dalinar.  Demanding it happen is ridiculous.

26 minutes ago, Parallax said:

3. In the hypothetical you are talking about a woman who has lost everyone she loved and everything she had because of Dalinar. She thinks death is the just punishment for what Dalinar did (compare this with how Kaladin feels about Amaram and you will see that the hypothetical woman is in fact quite calm and collected). 

Was Amaram currently and visibly saving the world?  I would like to remind you that Kaladin's justification was that killing Amaram was that he could not be trusted not to betray his own again.  Also Kaladin did not do so because he concluded it would be wrong.

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39 minutes ago, Parallax said:

1. A public confession is not the same as redeeming yourself. 

2. Tanalan is not the only other possible PoV. You can have the PoV of a 11 year old girl trying to rescue her younger brothers from a burning building in the city, failing to do that and passing out from smoke inhalation.

3. You can't blame Tanalan either, He prepared a calculated trap for Dalinar (who is not a civilian) which he survived. Responding to the trap by slaughtering of tens of thousands of civilians is just monstrous. 

4. Here is an interesting hypothetical: Dalinar publishes Oathbringer, sometime later someone shows up in Urithiru, claims to be a survivor of Rathalas who has lost all of her family in the Rift. Thanks Dalinar for confessing to his heinous crime, gives him 10 days to put his affairs in order and then surrender himself so he can be slain by her (this could have been the same PoV character I mention in #2). Hard to see how anyone would take Dalinar's side. The reason we don't have the PoV I mention and the subsequent confrontation is author's choice and that has been my point all along. Brandon Sanderson really messed up the moral calculus here by effectively sweeping under the rug one of the most evil acts we have seen on screen in Stormlight.  

1. I think we can all agree that there is no objective measure of self-redemption. Given that, many, if not most people find repentance to be the most important part of it. That's clearly present.

2. A scene from the perspective of a victim during the fire wouldn't have worked with the flashback format, since we were reading things as Dalinar was remembering them, and he wouldn't have anyone else's memories. And many people, including me, were disturbed by his actions, but those don't immediately disqualify him from changing. I'm curious what you think the line is between redeemable and irredeemable. I know that's a loaded question, and probably impossible to answer, but what's the worst possible thing that you would be willing to forgive him for having done instead of that, assuming everything else from the books was the same?

3. No arguments here, shifting the blame means nothing. The whole point is that it was his failt.

4. As people have already said, plenty of readers would be against executing Dalinar. I would be, for several reasons. That would be nothing but revenge, and it would be incredibly shortsighted to even attempt. Dalinar is the head of the good guys because he's the only one who can lead them. Sanderson didn't sweep anything under the rug, we've seen the feelings of other leaders and soldiers who were with him at the Rift, and we'll likely see reactions in the next book. But Dalinar is bonded to the Stormfather, knows how to run a war, and at this point basically exists to unify people. None of his allies in their right minds would want him removed, and definitely not executed. More importantly, he doesn't see himself as redeemed or completely absolved. Someone would, in your hypothetical, probably have to talk him out of submitting to the execution, because he would feel compelled to atone directly and that would cripple the war effort. The good guys don't have to be perfect, or even that good. They just have to be the people that are needed right now, doing the things that are needed. And I certainly wouldn't say Sanderson messed anything up by doing it this way. He's going to write his books however he wants. I don't think the parts I disagree with are mistakes.

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3 minutes ago, Ahriman said:

3. No arguments here, shifting the blame means nothing. The whole point is that it was his failt.

Dalinar certainly had plenty of fault.  This does not absolve Tanalan.  I fee bad for everyone else but I think he got what he deserved.

 

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1 minute ago, Karger said:

Dalinar certainly had plenty of fault.  This does not absolve Tanalan.  I fee bad for everyone else but I think he got what he deserved.

 

Nobody really gets absolution in this. I had no sympathy for him, but any culpability of his isn't important now. And given that Odium's whole thing is getting into people's heads by having them foist blame onto others, I just don't see a point in assigning blame. Especially with him being dead and all.

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