Robinski - 190924 - TCC Chapter 0B (11) - 3313 words (L)

[Robinski]

Hello,

 

Well, I'm STILL way behind responding to comments, so sorry about that. I thought things would improve last week, but...

 

Any and all comments very much appreciated on this tenth submission.

 

Chapter recap:

 

01 - In small town in British Columbia, Q and M close out the Not-All-That-Curious Case of the Stolen Art;

02 - Q and M decide on what to do next, all the options seem to have some issue or other. Q's ex-father calls;

03 - After some political machinations, we meet EM (the administrator) and TT (the scientist) who at Gen Ex Trick in Yellowknife, NWT;

04 - T is coerced by M into releasing the MTs. They are meant to kill her, but it does not go to plan for M. Now he has a problem

05 - Back with Q and M, they speak to R before going to meet him at the airport, but the plane crashes in 'unexpected' circumstances;

06 - Q and M are questioned at the sheriff's office then taken to the hospital to see R who they manage to speak to briefly before M appears and kills R;

07 - Q and M are in the frame for R's murder. M decides they should run. Car chase thru small town. They collect 80, 'borrow' N's plane and run;

08 - E discovers T's disappearance, is suspended by DM then goes to see the YK sheriff. He takes her to a kill site, but it's only animals, not T;

09 - After some chat about the past and Mor, Q dumps N's plane on the tarmac, QME are recovered by EMS and taken to hospital, where they escape;

10 - E runs the gauntlet of the press then releases the Vuls. Q and M progress to YK. Q gets a mystery call. K is on Q's trail and intends to make him pay

 

Cheers, Robinski

[Mandamon]

I think this chapter was shaky, for a couple reasons. First, I was about to note that I was starting to skim at the beginning. Q&M are once again going somewhere, but not getting there yet. Then, things started to pick up, and the deer made me think they were going to get into a tangle with the MTs, which would be awesome. But it was just a bear, that attacks for no reason I can see (Q&M didn't approach or threaten). While the section is tense, it reads as a sort of "gotcha" bait and switch from the real scary monsters. Again, I'm not sure what this chapter does to further the story. At this point we have all the pieces in play and need to start seeing interaction between Q&M and the party up in YK. Having another chapter of traveling feels like stretching things out for no reason.
Sorry to be such a downer. I thought it was very well written and there were some very cool moments, just not as useful in this location in the story.

Notes while reading:
pg 4: "Androids were suckers for politeness,"
--that's a cool workaround. I like the message/explanation as well.

pg 5: "you have much to learn about boxer shorts."
--lol

pg 6: "wildlife, you moron"
--ooooo...I have a bad feeling about this.
--Also, why would Q get out of the car at this point? They just stopped for deer crossing the road.

pg 7: "A massive, dark brown shadow..."
--I was not really expecting a threat from a bear, or rather I am expecting something else as well...

pg 9: “Close call, eh!”
--Hmm...So I sort of have a problem with this whole section, as tense as it was. I was fully expecting a MT to come out of the woods, but more than that, why did the bear attack? They were a ways off, from what I can tell, and the bear was, I assume, hunting deer with her cubs. Why would she divert from that to threaten humans? I'll admit I'm not a bear expert, but I would think the bear would know something of the road and know humans use it.

pg 9: "There’s much worse running around in the woods up there, I hear."
--Yeah, still disgruntled by this. I was expecting Q&M to get a glimpse of the monsters.

pg 10: "Priceless Princess?!"
--that's awesome.

pg 11: "The queer clotheshorse"
--great appellation.

pg 13: I'm not sure what the introspection from DM does for the chapter. Again, we pretty much know all of this already. We get a little bit of his history, but nothing we couldn't interpolate. T.O.M. is sort of becoming an empty threat because he keeps being threatening, but nothing so far has happened to Q&M by his making. Their troubles with the police were all pretty much by their own hand.

[industrialistDragon]

Pretty much everything @Mandamon said is the same for me, including where I started to skim. I'm not sure I buy that things are getting out of hand from Mor's perspective. It's seemed like so far everything's gone just about the way he wanted it, with the exception of T (maybe) still being alive (maybe). 

[shatteredsmooth]

For some reason I can't find the thread for Chapter 10, so I'm just going to put my comments for both chapters here. 

Something about the voice seemed a little off in both. E's voice felt rushed. Her whole part of the chapter seemed a little rushed. I also felt like the gaps between here and when we last read from her POV were big. I kept feeling like I was missing information about her standing with the sheriff and her finding out M over exaggerated his authority to suspend her. 

"But that was not going to happen. She could retrieve this." Retrieve what? 

Q saying M was griping about being on the move right before M gripes with very similar wording to what Q used felt a little repetitive. 

The strange message raises a lot of questions and makes me think that there is someone else playing that we haven't met. I'm almost wondering if this is the  person or thing that is in the mystery room T and E had been near in one chapter. Granted, it's been a while since I read that so I could be remembering it wrong. 

I did like getting the little snippet from K's point of view. It made me curious to see what his involvement will look like in the end. 

Regarding Chapter 11, I was thinking the same thing as @Mandamon and @industrialistDragon. Q & M are very passive. They are driving, around, sleeping, and reacting to things. I am guessing the unusual animal behavior is because of the MTs, but even with that, it still just seemed a little random, like an unnecessary obstacle that is keeping them from getting to the good stuff. 

I was also trying and failing to figure out how the history lesson played into the plot and why it was important. 

M's POV was interesting. Talking about wanting "out" seemed a little out of nowhere though it definitely added some depth to his character. However, I'm having a hard time with how he seems to think everything is going wrong. He says it is, but the narrative seems to be showing things going more or less in his favor. 

Even though these chapters stumbled a little, I still invested in the story and am looking forward to reading more. 

[kais]

As I go

I don't have a lot of detailed comments, but I'm left wondering what the arc and purpose was of this chapter. Q and M are still traveling and got attacked by a bear, not a loose GMO critter. The Mor internal dialogue doesn't appear to move the narrative forward and I'm still unclear as to his connection with Q. It looks like everyone else is in agreement on this so I won't belabor it. The writing was strong, but the momentum lacking.

 

As I go

- winding up her middle finger with a tiny imaginary crank handle. <-- BAHAHA

- pg 5: You have a lot to learn about that too <-- this is super patronizing so I'm surprised M didn't react

- pg 7: the 'huge bear' is the GMO creature, right? I'm a bit confused through here. There were deer, and some bear cubs, then a big bear?

- pg 9: oh, so it was the mother. That's a bit disappointing. I thought for sure they were about to meet one of the GMOs

- pg 10 on, you have italics for spoken sentences... oh wait, I see it's for subvocalization 

 

[Robinski]

Hey Mandamon, many thanks for reading.

On 25/09/2019 at 4:45 PM, Mandamon said:

First, I was about to note that I was starting to skim at the beginning. Q&M are once again going somewhere, but not getting there yet.

Yeah, it's always been the issue with this chapter. I'll sum up at the end.

On 25/09/2019 at 4:45 PM, Mandamon said:

Then, things started to pick up, and the deer made me think they were going to get into a tangle with the MTs, which would be awesome. But it was just a bear, that attacks for no reason I can see (Q&M didn't approach or threaten). While the section is tense, it reads as a sort of "gotcha" bait and switch from the real scary monsters.

Okay. Geographically speaking, they are a long way from YK. It's the issue with using a real setting and real tech, I suppose. Mor is on a train, which is much faster. In the original outline, Q and M were going to be on the train with Mor in a kind Hitchcock-ian standoff, but I though there was more chance for them to get into scrapes on the road. Each time I edit this chapter it gets shorter, and it's shorter again. As to the bait-and-switch, for one thing they are just too far away to encounter an MT, for another, I feel like I've read--or certainly watched--such set ups many, many times. That wasn't the intention, but it was the intention put them in contact with real nature first.

I read out on bear attacks fo the purpose of this scene. They are 15m away from the bear, Actually, I'll cut that to 10m, but still, that feels close enough for me that the bear would want to make a point. Again, I'll come back to the overarching issue with the chapter at the end.

On 25/09/2019 at 4:45 PM, Mandamon said:

Again, I'm not sure what this chapter does to further the story. At this point we have all the pieces in play and need to start seeing interaction between Q&M and the party up in YK. Having another chapter of traveling feels like stretching things out for no reason.
Sorry to be such a downer. I thought it was very well written and there were some very cool moments, just not as useful in this location in the story.

And this is my problem to a large extent, I think. Wanting to be true to the geography of the place (having picked the setting), wanting to show them getting in scrapes on the road (which I thought I could do by having E knee deep in the problem itself). So, stretching things out--I don't disagree that it does, but there is a reason, not that that's much consolation.

Please, do not feel any guilt at calling these things. Honesty is paramount, and it's the strength of this group. I won't say its uplifting (  ), but it's heartwarming to know that I can count of this group for such constructive honesty  "A wonderfully brutal writing group..."

Overall - yes, I suspect I'm going to get similar comments from the others. I haven't read them yet, but I recognise the veracity in what you say. I'll look again at the Mor scene, I was showing his motivation, but there's a sense of it elsewhere, and this bit is really just background colour in terms of how E-C and Gen fit into society. I think I'm close to the point where I could combine this chapter and the next one by cutting Mor, and another 500 / 750 words.

Many thanks, Mandamon. Invaluable comments, as ever, and no punches pulled. Respect.

[Robinski]

On 25/09/2019 at 11:31 PM, industrialistDragon said:

Pretty much everything @Mandamon said is the same for me, including where I started to skim. I'm not sure I buy that things are getting out of hand from Mor's perspective. It's seemed like so far everything's gone just about the way he wanted it, with the exception of T (maybe) still being alive (maybe). 

Hey, ID, thank you so much for reading, very much appreciated.

Yeah, see above, I guess, for my response. You guys have consistently told me there was an issue here and I've cut and cut and cut each time I go through it. Still, the issue does not go away. I do want to create the feeling of them being on the road, and I think that can work, but it's difficult when there is no direct interaction with the plot.

In relation to Mor, I'm tending towards just cutting his scene entirely, but considering the MTs were supposed to kill T and the rest would play out from there, he's had a lot of additional aggravation. I could hang a lantern on that, perhaps, if I keep his scene, which is unlikely.

Thanks again for reading. Always helpful  

[Robinski]

Hey, many thanks for reading, SSmooth. Always glad to have your comments. Possible that fact that it's Chapter 0 A is not helping you find it!! (Apologies for my affectations.)  

Chapter 10

On 27/09/2019 at 2:33 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

Something about the voice seemed a little off in both. E's voice felt rushed. Her whole part of the chapter seemed a little rushed. I also felt like the gaps between here and when we last read from her POV were big. I kept feeling like I was missing information about her standing with the sheriff and her finding out M over exaggerated his authority to suspend her. 

"But that was not going to happen. She could retrieve this." Retrieve what?

Right. I think I've tidied up E's chapter (10) a fair bit, but I thank you for calling it out. I think it's better / more consistent, and I think that will aid the continuity of her POV, but we'll see the test in a complete alpha read, which will be the next step when I get through subbing here, which will be about January/February, I think (  ), without actually calculating.

On 27/09/2019 at 2:33 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

Q saying M was griping about being on the move right before M gripes with very similar wording to what Q used felt a little repetitive.

It's a gag that probably only works in the setting of dramatic performance, and is entirely reliant on timing, which it's pretty much impossible to guarantee on the page. So, maybe I'll cut it, although I think yours is on the only gripe about it, so far. If I ever have an editor (hah!), for this (HAH!), I'll let them call it.

On 27/09/2019 at 2:33 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

The strange message raises a lot of questions and makes me think that there is someone else playing that we haven't met.

Good!  

On 27/09/2019 at 2:33 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

I'm almost wondering if this is the  person or thing that is in the mystery room T and E had been near in one chapter. Granted, it's been a while since I read that so I could be remembering it wrong. 

 

On 27/09/2019 at 2:33 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

I did like getting the little snippet from K's point of view. It made me curious to see what his involvement will look like in the end.

  I'm absolutely delighted, as this is pretty much exactly what that scene is there to do. It's a little bit shorter than it was before, but I'll certainly leave it in.

Chapter 11 

On 27/09/2019 at 2:33 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

Q & M are very passive. They are driving, around, sleeping, and reacting to things. I am guessing the unusual animal behavior is because of the MTs, but even with that, it still just seemed a little random, like an unnecessary obstacle that is keeping them from getting to the good stuff.

Yeah, see my response to Mandamon. But, yeah, I need to ponder this in a quiet room. I feel that I can't 'jump' them straight to YK. Well, I could, but I would lose the development of the situation in YK. There's no real difference in feel between Crest and YK, so that would become an issue. On the plus side, I continue to cut, cut, cut from these travel chapters, so this middle section will continue to get shorter and shorter.

On 27/09/2019 at 2:33 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

I was also trying and failing to figure out how the history lesson played into the plot and why it was important.

None at all. It's colour and it can go at some point, but it is now basically two paragraphs.

On 27/09/2019 at 2:33 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

M's POV was interesting. Talking about wanting "out" seemed a little out of nowhere though it definitely added some depth to his character. However, I'm having a hard time with how he seems to think everything is going wrong. He says it is, but the narrative seems to be showing things going more or less in his favor.

Well, okay. As noted above. T was supposed to die at the jaws of the MT, so he has travelled thousands of miles and killed two people and that was never a part of the plan. He's in control, but the plan is not going as envisaged. I might have to clarify that in his POV, but I'm glad that it added something for you. It does seem that maybe there is a split decision on his POV here.

On 27/09/2019 at 2:33 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

Even though these chapters stumbled a little, I still invested in the story and am looking forward to reading more.

That's great. As I say, there's more cutting to come, which will sharpen things up more, I'm just not sure I can lose them completely. Or I'm not ready to yet.

Thanks so much for reading. Really appreciate the comments. Very helpful.  

[Robinski]

Hey kais, many thanks for reading. Much appreciated.

On 30/09/2019 at 3:36 AM, kais said:

I don't have a lot of detailed comments, but I'm left wondering what the arc and purpose was of this chapter. Q and M are still traveling and got attacked by a bear, not a loose GMO critter.

Yeah, see responses above. I'm going to have a long, hard think about it, but there is more cutting to come.

On 30/09/2019 at 3:36 AM, kais said:

The Mor internal dialogue doesn't appear to move the narrative forward and I'm still unclear as to his connection with Q.

Hmm, that's a bit different. I thought I'd tagged that by now, maybe it's in the revisions I've made editing, but I thought it was clear that worked together, and M's role in taking Q's son away from his then wife.

On 30/09/2019 at 3:36 AM, kais said:

It looks like everyone else is in agreement on this so I won't belabor it. The writing was strong, but the momentum lacking.

I mean, I think this pretty much sums up the whole middle section, and the major difficult I have presently in my writing. (Not that I've got everything else cracked, but I think it's the plotting that is my greatest weakness.) I think part of the issue is that I like slow scenes, I like quiet sequels with personal interaction and no plot, so I tend to write them, include them, at the expense of plot and momentum. As I say above, I'm going to have a long, hard think about it here, but more cutting will happen.

On 30/09/2019 at 3:36 AM, kais said:

- pg 5: You have a lot to learn about that too <-- this is super patronizing so I'm surprised M didn't react

Check. I've ramped up her reaction a bit.

On 30/09/2019 at 3:36 AM, kais said:

- pg 7: the 'huge bear' is the GMO creature, right? I'm a bit confused through here. There were deer, and some bear cubs, then a big bear?

- pg 9: oh, so it was the mother. That's a bit disappointing. I thought for sure they were about to meet one of the GMOs

As noted in response to Mandamon above they are too far away still from YK for it to be an MT. Also, I'm pretty sure I see this sort of thing in just about every second monster film I see, but, I will be having a heart-to-heart with myself over this chapter.

On 30/09/2019 at 3:36 AM, kais said:

- pg 10 on, you have italics for spoken sentences... oh wait, I see it's for subvocalization

I've tagged this upfront now.

Really appreciate that comments, thank you. Invaluable, as ever.  

[Mandamon]

5 hours ago, Robinski said:

I suppose. Mor is on a train, which is much faster. In the original outline, Q and M were going to be on the train with Mor in a kind Hitchcock-ian standoff,

I like this premise a lot better!

[Robinski]

5 hours ago, Mandamon said:

I like this premise a lot better!

Gosh darn it!

Coincidently, Mrs. Robinski and I watched North by Northwest last night, which is probably still my favourite Hitchcock, and involves a train. The issues between Hitchcock and certain of his female leads have come under scrutiny, of course, but I don't think anyone can deny the chap made some great films, many involving trains. You'll be pleased to hear, @kais, that I cringed at the gender politics in various places. Ooft, 60 years ago and it shows now.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Robinski

[kais]

On 10/8/2019 at 10:47 AM, Robinski said:

You'll be pleased to hear, @kais, that I cringed at the gender politics in various places.

My work here is clearly done.

[Silk]

Overall, I don't have a lot to say about this chapter that I haven't already said about earlier chapters. Still enjoying the character dynamics, still feel like this chapter was a lot of traveling and/or reflecting that didn't do a whole lot to actually move the plot forward. The bit with the bear was a nicely tense bit, pacing and action-wise, but since it seems to be a pretty clear case of "wrong place at the wrong time," it feels a bit artificial, like it's just there to throw yet another roadblock at Q and M by getting rid of their vehicle.

Similarly the conversation between the Old Man and Mor doesn't quite pack the punch it needs. I think @Mandamon has hit it on the head with his comment that it doesn't actually tell us anything we don't already know. It's nice to get to know a little more of Mor's motivations, but other than that, he doesn't reveal anything to us or take any actual action to move things along.

As I read:

Love the "Eight-ball" nickname.

"I didn't know you cared." "F*ing wildlife, you moron!" I snickered at this bit.

The bit with the bears is fun and all, but I'm not entirely sure why Q and M got out of the car to begin with...

Q declines the ride from the nice trucker, leaving me wondering what on earth he plans on doing to get, well, anywhere civilized?

I don't know exactly what it is, but something about the clothing scene I find very effective. I was cringing in sympathy the entire time I read it. That said, they're going to have a hell of a time being taken seriously (or just not attracting attention) dressed like that...

On 9/25/2019 at 8:45 AM, Mandamon said:

I was fully expecting a MT to come out of the woods, but more than that, why did the bear attack?

I was also fully expecting them to be MTs. I have less of a problem with the bear attacking, though; they're notoriously protective of their cubs, grizzlies (I assume from the size and location that this is a grizzly and not a brown or black bear) perhaps especially so. Getting attacked by MTs, though, could be a fun wrinkle. I don't remember if Q and M are actually aware of the release of the MTs yet? (If so, they sure don't seem to pick up on the trucker's comment about something worse in the woods.)

On 9/25/2019 at 3:31 PM, industrialistDragon said:

I'm not sure I buy that things are getting out of hand from Mor's perspective.

This is a good point, too. Also, does he not know where T is? Mor mentions R's wife sticking her nose in where it doesn't belong, which implies Mor knows T is with her, but if so, shouldn't both T and R's wife be easy targets?

On 10/8/2019 at 0:14 AM, Robinski said:

None at all. It's colour and it can go at some point, but it is now basically two paragraphs.

I figured this was local colour, and didn't have a problem with it.

On 10/8/2019 at 0:41 AM, Robinski said:

but I thought it was clear that worked together, and M's role in taking Q's son away from his then wife.

For an alternate point of view--yes, I think this was discussed in a previous chapter, and also through some of Q's reflections.

Okay, seeing the discussion in the thread about story structure, I want to throw out some ideas. As a quick note, I see your comments about trimming back some of the individual chapters, and I suspect that that will help, but not entirely fix the problem. So, some thoughts:

On 10/7/2019 at 11:49 PM, Robinski said:

In the original outline, Q and M were going to be on the train with Mor in a kind Hitchcock-ian standoff,

This sounds fun, although the concept feels to me more like an exciting chapter or two than something that can be sustained long-term (hard to say that with real confidence without seeing it on the page, of course, but that’s my initial thought).

My very first thought was, why can’t we have a single travel scene, and then Q and M arriving in YT at the appropriate moment? But, with a lot happening in the E/Mor storyline, this could also be pretty structurally awkward. I’m going to assume for the rest of this post that the structure of the E/Mor storyline can’t be adjusted substantially (although it may be worthwhile to leave that option on the table, too!) and throw out some suggestions for Q and M.

The way I see it, the Q and M storyline has two problems: the size of the landscape they’re traveling through (Canada’s really big, yo), and the fact that they are currently isolated from the entire rest of the story. We can’t do much about the first problem if you want to stay relatively true to the landscape you’ve chosen—fair enough—so what can we do to alleviate the second one?

• They’ve already got one call from a mystery caller, which in my recollection doesn’t reveal much except that the mystery caller is there, and supposedly on their side. What if the caller revealed more information, deliberately or inadvertently, that neither the characters nor the reader is already aware of? Could Q and M “work” this information somehow?

• What if the mystery caller called again?

• What if Q, M, and the android were able to “crack” mystery of who called while they were traveling?

• Q calls Gen to talk to E, and gets an answering machine. What if he got E herself, instead? Or, depending on where Mor is at – what if he got Mor?

• The android’s been forcibly cut off from the Internet. What if the crew found a way to crack this—what opportunities would that give them? What dangers might it pose (them being easier to track, etc)? You already seem to be setting something along these lines up with M’s “Hey, how’d you do that?” comment in this chapter.

• No Internet, but Q can make calls. Does he have any favours he could call in, friends/contacts/etc who might be able to help protect T and R’s wife in the interim? Might this impose some sort of cost on Q or cause some sort of complication down the line?

• I’m not convinced this one’s actually a good idea, but I’ll throw it out anyway for the sake of argument. We know K is chasing them; what if he catches up? What if he’s learned something in the meantime that could move the story forward? Doesn’t have to be K either, necessarily, since other police would be out and about and could happen across them.

I’ll be honest, even playing around with some of these might not entirely fix the problem, but I do think you might be able to find some opportunities for Q and M to be involved with the other storyline more often than they are. With the current structure, I think the key is to find those opportunities for the different plot lines to intersect and affect one another.

The other major question here, and it’s related, is how can we turn the landscape from a slog that Q and M (and the readers) have to travel through to get to their real destination, to a genuine obstacle? I think this is what you were driving at with the bear attack, but what we’re missing from this scene is consequences. Obviously Q and M could have died, but how does that affect the narrative overall? We don’t really know, because aside from the encounter with Mor, they really haven’t had much chance to interact with the plot. But, with the right setup, the great distance Q and M have to travel could become a great race-against-the-clock scenario, for example. Where are there opportunities to turn the landscape from something working against your story into something that works for it? Where can you turn it into something that works to increase the tension rather than deflate it?

I feel like I’m starting to ramble so I’m going to bring my comments to an inelegant close. Hopefully that is at least somewhat helpful.

And oh yeah, LBLs – since I’m working off a consolidated document for these few submissions I’ve been doing LBLs with track changes to save a bit of time. I’ll send the whole doc your way when I’m done with it.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Silk

[Robinski]

Hey Silk, really glad to have your comments. I think yours may be the longest post on this thread, which did surprise me a little when you said you didn't have much to say   Seriously though, thank you.

18 hours ago, Silk said:

The bit with the bear was a nicely tense bit, pacing and action-wise, but since it seems to be a pretty clear case of "wrong place at the wrong time," it feels a bit artificial, like it's just there to throw yet another roadblock at Q and M by getting rid of their vehicle.

Yeah, eh, ah, um. I'm keeping it in the draft for now, but I hear you on these things. It might go, but later. And they are townies, but then 80 should have said something, before they got out, I guess.

18 hours ago, Silk said:

It's nice to get to know a little more of Mor's motivations, but other than that, he doesn't reveal anything to us or take any actual action to move things along.

Noted. I undertand. Will review.

18 hours ago, Silk said:

Q declines the ride from the nice trucker, leaving me wondering what on earth he plans on doing to get, well, anywhere civilized?

Eh? No ride was offered. Just the sandwich.

18 hours ago, Silk said:

I don't know exactly what it is, but something about the clothing scene I find very effective. I was cringing in sympathy the entire time I read it. That said, they're going to have a hell of a time being taken seriously (or just not attracting attention) dressed like that...

Awesome! It's always interesting what resonates with different readers. I'm very pleased. It'll work really well on-screen when N-tfl-x pick it up  

18 hours ago, Silk said:

On 25/09/2019 at 4:45 PM, Mandamon said:

I was fully expecting a MT to come out of the woods, but more than that, why did the bear attack?

I was also fully expecting them to be MTs. I have less of a problem with the bear attacking, though; they're notoriously protective of their cubs, grizzlies (I assume from the size and location that this is a grizzly and not a brown or black bear) perhaps especially so. Getting attacked by MTs, though, could be a fun wrinkle. I don't remember if Q and M are actually aware of the release of the MTs yet? (If so, they sure don't seem to pick up on the trucker's comment about something worse in the woods.)

The snag is the that the MTs are 2000km away. I agree it would be a good scene, but they just aren't going to travel that distance (in that direction). Having said this, I could fake the reader out, but maybe they'd just get p/o'd with me in a different way. Glad the attack itself was sort of convincing (notwithstanding the, getting out the car), I did some research!

19 hours ago, Silk said:

This is a good point, too. Also, does he not know where T is? Mor mentions R's wife sticking her nose in where it doesn't belong, which implies Mor knows T is with her, but if so, shouldn't both T and R's wife be easy targets?

He doesn't know and the reference to R's wife there is a total error. Well spotted. Fixed!

19 hours ago, Silk said:

On 08/10/2019 at 8:14 AM, Robinski said:

None at all. It's colour and it can go at some point, but it is now basically two paragraphs.

I figured this was local colour, and didn't have a problem with it.

That's good. You nice folks have made me cut and cut that scene, and it's properly tight now, to the point I feel I can defend it, in this edit it least.

19 hours ago, Silk said:

Okay, seeing the discussion in the thread about story structure, I want to throw out some ideas. As a quick note, I see your comments about trimming back some of the individual chapters, and I suspect that that will help, but not entirely fix the problem.

Agree.

19 hours ago, Silk said:

This sounds fun, although the concept feels to me more like an exciting chapter or two than something that can be sustained long-term (hard to say that with real confidence without seeing it on the page, of course, but that’s my initial thought).

Tend to agree. Trains are fast in these days, so it would not be sustained for many chapters, as you say. Unless a bear attacked the train, of course  

19 hours ago, Silk said:

I’m going to assume for the rest of this post that the structure of the E/Mor storyline can’t be adjusted substantially (although it may be worthwhile to leave that option on the table, too!) and throw out some suggestions for Q and M.

Okay, I'm with you so far...

On 28/10/2019 at 0:44 AM, Silk said:

so what can we do to alleviate the second one?

Ah-ha. Firstly, thank you for considering this in such depth, I really appreciate it  

Secondly, I think maybe you've now read the next a bit further, you will know that some of your suggestions do start to happen, to some extent. I won't give too much away, because we're not quite there yet, but 4 out of 7 points do happen . So, to some extent perhaps it's fair to say it comes back to the slog through the landscape, which is a fair point.

I do like the idea of M/C revealing more. Q calling someone to protect TT and MR may be an option, the problem is that no one knows where they are, BUT that is something that I should insert, I think. Having them more actively looking for them while travelling north, which would be better then at present. There are good points and have certainly generated some changes that I will make in the next draft. Thanks!

On 28/10/2019 at 0:44 AM, Silk said:

Where are there opportunities to turn the landscape from something working against your story into something that works for it? Where can you turn it into something that works to increase the tension rather than deflate it?

You're right. What is missing is M actively searching for MR. It might mean inserting more M scene, snippets, but to have him closing on MR and TT would be possible, and therefore to put time pressure on QME. This is a good point. I'll almost certainly do this, though it will be next draft, I think.

On 28/10/2019 at 0:44 AM, Silk said:

And oh yeah, LBLs – since I’m working off a consolidated document for these few submissions I’ve been doing LBLs with track changes to save a bit of time. I’ll send the whole doc your way when I’m done with it.

Aw, cool. Above and beyond! Thank you so much.

Great comments here, Silk, many thanks  

[Silk]

5 hours ago, Robinski said:

which did surprise me a little when you said you didn't have much to say  

Yeah, um, sorry about that. Rule number 1: Never believe Silk when she says she has nothing to say. She's lying, if only to herself.

5 hours ago, Robinski said:

And they are townies

It wasn't that it was a dumb idea so much as they didn't seem to have a reason to get out of the car to begin with. But I mean, if Q was just rattled by almost hitting the deer or something, that's an easy fix.

6 hours ago, Robinski said:

Eh? No ride was offered.

Never mind, the trucker offered them a ride to Revelstoke, which I suppose is in the wrong direction...

6 hours ago, Robinski said:

It'll work really well on-screen when N-tfl-x pick it up

6 hours ago, Robinski said:

Unless a bear attacked the train, of course

I'm not advocating this scene for this story, necessarily, but I would 100% read this.

6 hours ago, Robinski said:

Having them more actively looking for them while travelling north, which would be better then at present.

Yeah, this will help, possibly quite a bit. And I wonder if there is an opportunity to make some of those things that do happen, happen sooner? It's not so much about the individual things happening or not, those were just suggestions that seem plausible from my perspective, it's more about giving Q and M more changes to engage with the storyline, and do so actively.

[Robinski]

3 hours ago, Silk said:

She's lying

 

3 hours ago, Silk said:

Q was just rattled by almost hitting the deer or something, that's an easy fix.

And that was the intent. I guess it doesn't come across by osmosis.

3 hours ago, Silk said:

9 hours ago, Robinski said:

Eh? No ride was offered.

Never mind, the trucker offered them a ride to Revelstoke, which I suppose is in the wrong direction...

Crud. I managed to miss that it when I flicked back over it  As you say, not going their way.

3 hours ago, Silk said:

9 hours ago, Robinski said:

Unless a bear attacked the train, of course

I'm not advocating this scene for this story, necessarily, but I would 100% read this.

Well, I am 110% writing the story when he goes to Europe to do the library thing, and that will have trains out the wazoo, I think. I'm in touch with my inner Sheldon.

3 hours ago, Silk said:

more changes to engage with the storyline, and do so actively.

Yeah