Woozy

Recreance question

13 posts in this topic

So I think I understand the reasoning behind wanting to abolish the knights radiant. The reasons being that Honor was crazy, and saying they would destroy roshar, they lobotomized the parshmen, then found out humanity were the original voidbringers. 

However, is there any reason why the knights radiant wouldn't try to make a deal with their spren to stop forming bonds with humans? 

If they could not break there bonds without killing their spren why not make a pact saying. "After we die, you stay in shadesmar, do not bond with anymore humans."

The reason I bring this up is that they are bonded and have deep relationship with their spren. I feel like the spren would potentially understand that surge bonding is dangerous, especially with Honor raving about it. Wouldn't the knights radiant would have a hard time talking about potentially killing their spren without trying to negotiate with them at all?

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This is honestly why I don't think it was the Radiants idea, but the spren.

I find it odd that none of the spren now are aware of the reasons for the recreance. Just that humans betrayed their spren... But we know that a spren can end the bond if they wish. 

Quote

Extesian

Simple, harmless, totally non-contro one. Can a spren unilaterally sever a Nahel bond (i.e. where the Radiant doesn't agree and hasn't technically, according to spren and Radiant, broken an oath)?

Brandon Sanderson

Yup, no controversy here at all.

This is possible. But I'm not going to go into the mechanics.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 22, 2018)

The spren were at the very least complicit. You can't plan a coordinated effort like we see in the recreance, and have the spren not be aware of it. 

Add in that after the fact the radiants just... Walk away, despondent, and seemingly downtrodden... It does not seem like a choice they wanted to make. 

But what happens if, after the domino like cascade of historical and current atrocities and your god raving that you will end your world, your best friend then drops this on you. The being that you have an extremely intimate bond with. One who in many ways is literally a part of you, tells you that this has to end, and they know a way to ensure that it does... 

I've said it before, but I don't believe many of the Radiants survived long after the Recreance. How could you live with yourself? Even if you thought it was the right thing to do. 

Edited by Calderis
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So I'll caveat this by saying that I think there are flaws with the explanation that we've been given for the Recreance.  I don't know if it's because some information we have just isn't accurate (Honor's visions, for instance) or if Brandon thought he was doing a better job than he actually did, but the Recreance just doesn't work as it's posited now.

With regard to your specific objection however, there are possible explanations.  One possibility is that the spren simply cannot make such an oath.  We know from Oathbringer that the Stormfather couldn't stop the storm from blowing even if he wanted to.  Spren are bound to do certain things as part of their nature, and it's possible that one of those things that Radiant spren need to do is seek out Radiants to bond.  Admittedly it doesn't seem like this is the case, as there appear to be plenty of Radiant spren in Shadesmar who aren't actively seeking a bond, but perhaps they're only better at delaying the inevitable.

Another possibility is that even if the Radiants made a pact with their spren, there were other unbound spren who would not have been party to such a pact and (especially if they hadn't heard Honor's raving) mightn't have agreed with it.  And even if you could get every single spren alive at the time to agree, there's no guarantee that the children of those spren, born thousands of years later, would feel the same obligation.

Of course, it's not like the Recreance fixes these problems, either.  It didn't wipe out all the Radiant spren, didn't account for future spren births, and just generally seems like an idiotic reaction to Honor's rantings.  At best, it kicks the problem several centuries down the road, at the cost of not even being able to explain to future Radiants the danger that they're in.  But there is no rational way to explain the Recreance, unless you find "mind control by Odium" to be a reasonable explanation.

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7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

This is honestly why I don't think it was the Radiants idea, but the spren.

I find it odd that none of the spren now are aware of the reasons for the recreance. Just that humans betrayed their spren... But we know that a spren can end the bond if they wish. 

The spren were at the very least complicit. You can't plan a coordinated effort like we see in the recreance, and have the spren not be aware of it. 

Add in that after the fact the radiants just... Walk away, despondent, and seemingly downtrodden... It does not seem like a choice they wanted to make. 

But what happens if, after the domino like cascade of historical and current atrocities and your god raving that you will end your world, your best friend then drops this on you. The being that you have an extremely intimate bond with. One who in many ways is literally a part of you, tells you that this has to end, and they know a way to ensure that it does... 

I've said it before, but I don't believe many of the Radiants survived long after the Recreance. How could you live with yourself? Even if you thought it was the right thing to do. 

Thus my theory

 

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3 hours ago, Woozy said:

So I think I understand the reasoning behind wanting to abolish the knights radiant. The reasons being that Honor was crazy, and saying they would destroy roshar, they lobotomized the parshmen, then found out humanity were the original voidbringers. 

However, is there any reason why the knights radiant wouldn't try to make a deal with their spren to stop forming bonds with humans? 

If they could not break there bonds without killing their spren why not make a pact saying. "After we die, you stay in shadesmar, do not bond with anymore humans."

The reason I bring this up is that they are bonded and have deep relationship with their spren. I feel like the spren would potentially understand that surge bonding is dangerous, especially with Honor raving about it. Wouldn't the knights radiant would have a hard time talking about potentially killing their spren without trying to negotiate with them at all?

one more reason for their decision about recreance which is often neglected is that the Radiants at the time genuinely believed that the desolations had ended. That Odium and Fused had been defeated. They only saw the parsh of the time as the remaining threat. so once they entrapped BAM and lobotomised all the parsh, not only would they feel extremely guilty about it and scared of their own powers but they also thought that the humanity was safe. There was no longer a need for the humans to have so much dangerous powers. it was a sacrifice as they saw it to save the world from destruction.

Also i think that their spren have to be in on it. i can not imagine that Radiants killed their spren without telling them about it. May be it is as Kaladin said that once a KR and his spren perceives that they broke their oaths, then their spren is begining to die anyway. And dropping the shards was a mere formality or they actively decided that this is way to stop it forever. 

i feel that a Pact as you suggest would not work because:

a. future spren generations may not abide by it 

b. also i question how much will these spren remember? suppose kaladin and syl make this pact aand they break their bond without killing her, she goes back to Shadesmaar. how much will she remember after going back? will she forget and then go back to physical realm and try to bond someone else years later? 

    what if she does not go back to shadesmar? what if she breaks the bond and remains in the Physical realm? she will definitely forget that she is not supposed to form a new nahel bond. 

So, i think they(KR & their Spren) broke their oaths and broke it in a way that

a.  these spren will remain trapped in the Physical Realm in a way that they can not form new bonds. they agreed probably to be killed by their KRs in a way. their KRs i     agree will not have survived much longer after that. 

b. other spren remaining in shadesmar and all the future generations of spren will stay away from humanity and will not even think of forming these bonds again.

it almost worked too. For nearly two thousand years, there were no radiants and there may not have been any Radiants ever, if it were not for the fact that Desolation is coming again. Today spren are bonding accepting the risk that they will die but today this risk and the danger that these surges pose is worth it. 

Ofcourse, there is always a chance that there might be a few deviant spren who will still try to bond humans and there may be some who gain surgebinding,

well then it is not like there is a crazy Knights Radiants Order working like a secret organisation picking these few ones up and killing them as and when they appear.

 

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9 hours ago, The traveller said:

it almost worked too. For nearly two thousand years, there were no radiants and there may not have been any Radiants ever, if it were not for the fact that Desolation is coming again. Today spren are bonding accepting the risk that they will die but today this risk and the danger that these surges pose is worth it. 

Ofcourse, there is always a chance that there might be a few deviant spren who will still try to bond humans and there may be some who gain surgebinding,

well then it is not like there is a crazy Knights Radiants Order working like a secret organisation picking these few ones up and killing them as and when they appear.

 

Could the Skybreakers have been told to remain by the spren? 

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1 minute ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

Could the Skybreakers have been told to remain by the spren? 

By their spren, yes. 

Relevant WoB. (Spoilered for length, the. Quote of the relevant portion) 

Spoiler

Questioner

It was mentioned that there are 16 gods in your Cosmere.

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on your definition of god.

Questioner

Shards. Are the ten orders of the Knight Radiants related to specific gods? Because Honor, child of Honor-Kaladin

Brandon Sanderson

So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book.

Questioner

I was wondering how much-

Brandon Sanderson

But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place.

Questioner

The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard.

Brandon Sanderson

That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.

Questioner

Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)
Quote

Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.

 

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3 hours ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

Could the Skybreakers have been told to remain by the spren? 

Yes I think that likely. In fact if spren were really in on it then it makes sense that they left one order to do the dirty work. 

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I agree with the theory that the spren were in on it. But I think there was much more to the recreance than even the radiants or spren knew about. 

I am under the impression that part of the way Odium killed Honour was by tricking him into performing non - honourable acts. Then revealing them to honour, effectively weakening him. This then lead to Honour becoming crazy, which lead to a series of events that the radiants started to question. Which culminated in the reveal that the humans were invaders to Roshar, which became the straw that broke the camel's back causing the recreance. 

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37 minutes ago, Vindo said:

I am under the impression that part of the way Odium killed Honour was by tricking him into performing non - honourable acts. Then revealing them to honour, effectively weakening him.

I don't think it works that way.   Also shards exist mostly in the spirit world where time is a bit of a wishy washy concept at best.

39 minutes ago, Vindo said:

This then lead to Honour becoming crazy, which lead to a series of events that the radiants started to question. Which culminated in the reveal that the humans were invaders to Roshar, which became the straw that broke the camel's back causing the recreance. 

Honor's death caused his craziness not the other way around(if I am interpreting the Stormfather correctly). 

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3 hours ago, Vindo said:

 

I am under the impression that part of the way Odium killed Honour was by tricking him into performing non - honourable acts. Then revealing them to honour, effectively weakening him. This then lead to Honour becoming crazy, which lead to a series of events that the radiants started to question. Which culminated in the reveal that the humans were invaders to Roshar, which became the straw that broke the camel's back causing the recreance. 

I don’t think it works that way. If odium can just taunt a shard into dying, then that would super easy for him. I don’t think honor could do anything against his intent at the point. 

I do wonder though if broken oaths by heralds could have weakened him somehow.. and then recreance, even more broken oaths, was the final nail on the coffin so to speak. 

 

3 hours ago, Vindo said:

I agree with the theory that the spren were in on it. But I think there was much more to the recreance than even the radiants or spren knew about. 

The only thing that can be more to the story that I can think of, is if Nale the supercrazy dude was actually right. If having Radiants somehow really weakened the oathpact and caused desolations to be more frequent. 

But I highly highly doubt that. And there are wobs that says that nale is just crazy

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On 9/24/2019 at 11:40 PM, Calderis said:

This is honestly why I don't think it was the Radiants idea, but the spren.

I find it odd that none of the spren now are aware of the reasons for the recreance. Just that humans betrayed their spren... But we know that a spren can end the bond if they wish. 

The spren were at the very least complicit. You can't plan a coordinated effort like we see in the recreance, and have the spren not be aware of it. 

Add in that after the fact the radiants just... Walk away, despondent, and seemingly downtrodden... It does not seem like a choice they wanted to make. 

But what happens if, after the domino like cascade of historical and current atrocities and your god raving that you will end your world, your best friend then drops this on you. The being that you have an extremely intimate bond with. One who in many ways is literally a part of you, tells you that this has to end, and they know a way to ensure that it does... 

That is interesting. If that is true and the spren had input it makes me wonder why the windrunners and stonewards spren would want to be "disposed of" out in one big group where dalinar saw them in his vision. 

I always assumed the other orders left their spren(Shard blades) in hidden locations, Although I could be wrong about that, do you think the stonewards and windrunners spren wanted their "corpses" to be used by other humans?

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2 minutes ago, Woozy said:

That is interesting. If that is true and the spren had input it makes me wonder why the windrunners and stonewards spren would want to be "disposed of" out in one big group where dalinar saw them in his vision. 

I always assumed the other orders left their spren(Shard blades) in hidden locations, Although I could be wrong about that, do you think the stonewards and windrunners spren wanted their "corpses" to be used by other humans?

To make a statement. They didn't necessarily want ordinary people to use their Shardblades, but they knew that if the Windrunners and the Stonewards, which are very battle-oriented, protect-everybody-at-all-costs orders. Their betrayal would mean that everybody hates the Radiants, which did happen. But it could also have the subtle implication that disbanding the Radiants would protect everybody else, which might've been true.

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