Fresh Take on Medallions

[Halyo_Alex]

So, I was eating lunch, thinking about Realmatic stuff. Then I had an epiphany about F-Nicrosil. It, "Stores Investiture". This is very vague, obviously. Technically everything in the cosmere is "made of" investiture, or could be converted to it with mass-energy-investiture equivalence.

Then it hit me like an Awakened Sword.
The spiritweb is also Investiture. So you could store a part of your soul inside F-Nicrosil.

Or... A part of someone else's soul? What if you tried to store the fragment of Spiritweb contained inside a hemalurgic spike that you had "equipped" (for want of a better term) at the time? If you stored your Identity in aluminum completely, could you make an unkeyed Nicrosilmind with a hemalurgic charge stored within?

This, i propose, is how a Medallion works:
Step 1: Obtain Aluminum and Nicrosil feruchemy, however you see fit. (probably hemalurgically.)
Step 2: Spike someone's feruchemical power out of them, spike yourself with it.
Step 3: blank your Identity with Aluminum, store the bit of Spiritweb inside the Nicrosil.

Step 4: Profit?

Now of course this has a few bumps in it, such as "how does anyone even tap the Nicrosil to begin with?" But with the way this is set up, there is an Identityless piece of spiritweb inside of Nicrosil. I believe it was said in BoM that the medallions work because everyone has the slightest bit of Feruchemy inside them... I'd love to have the exact quote, of course. With that in mind, it might be that the piece of spiritweb is reaching out towards the natural smidgen of feruchemy inside the user's spiritweb, trying to bind to it like it used to be with the actual Hemalurgic spike. A bit of a rough hypothesis, I know.

Assuming Nicrosil works most like Copper in that there is a discreet, well defined "thing" being stored/withdrawn, rather than a "flow" of "attribute" like strength, this would be more possible.

Edit: found the WoB that confirms Nicrosil is Copper-like in Feruchemy. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316/#e11247

 

Ask about any other flaws with this setup, I'm happy to continue theorycrafting with you all!

Edited October 3, 2019 by Halyo_Alex
Found a WoB with supporting evidence.

[Nari_Lutra]

hmmmmmm


also, BAD HALYO, STAHP BREAKING THINGS

[Calderis]

Very similar to my idea. I'll take your independent arrival at this conclusion as support 

Have an upvote. 

 

[Halyo_Alex]

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Very similar to my idea. I'll take your independent arrival at this conclusion as support 

Have an upvote. 

 

Interesting! yeah, having skimmed through that real quick, I can see how similar it is. I do like the idea that Hemalurgy would be critical to making something so powerful, as a balancing consequence to the portability and versatility a Medallion allows for. Instead of needing to find iron ferrings who are good at manning an airship, just have iron medallions that anyone good at manning an airship can use.

You're sacrificing a metalborn's life to grant their power portability and freedom. ...Huh. Kinda poetic, actually. and if their fragment of spiritweb is inside the F-Nicrosil, then they're sort of... pseudo-immortal, in a tiny way. A tiny bit of you would survive. ...Huh. Survive. That's funny.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Halyo_Alex

[Calderis]

8 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Interesting! yeah, having skimmed through that real quick, I can see how similar it is. I do like the idea that Hemalurgy would be critical to making something so powerful, as a balancing consequence to the portability and versatility a Medallion allows for. Instead of needing to find iron ferrings who are good at manning an airship, just have iron medallions that anyone good at manning an airship can use.

You're sacrificing a metalborn's life to grant their power portability and freedom. ...Huh. Kinda poetic, actually. and if their fragment of spiritweb is inside the F-Nicrosil, then they're sort of... pseudo-immortal, in a tiny way. A tiny bit of you would survive. ...Huh. Survive. That's funny.

Agreed. There's also this idea I've seen that somehow Hemalurgy is going to "die" and be replaced by the medallions... But Khriss says Hemalurgy is the Metallic art with the largest implications for the Cosmere as a whole. 

Brandon also says the future tech if Scadrial is about the interactions of the Metallic Arts, not just allomancy and Feruchemy. And when you start getting into the realy complex stuff, Hemalurgy is able to steal things that neither allomancy or Feruchemy have any access to. 

This WoB (Spoilered for length) 

Spoiler

Questioner

In reading about Adonalsium and Odium, I get the sense that it's more related to lerasium and atium than it is to, like, Preservation or Ruin. Because, sometimes it seems like we're identifying... Odium and Adonalsium as beings instead of, like, the body of--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, it is a little confusing by design. The question is, like, telling the difference between the Vessel who is holding the power, the intent of that power, and the physical manifestations of that power as Investiture or as whatever, these things are confusing. And I did this on purpose. I like that blurring between them. One of the things I did when I was designing the magic for the cosmere, was-- you guys know this very easily from looking at the books, I love the ideas of quantum theory, string theory, all this stuff. And even, just looking at quantum mechanics as we understand them right now. And the further you get into the details, the more the rules that you built, everything you understand upon, become blurry. And we live in this world where certain scientific principles, like-- I was sitting at a writing group, talking to my friend who's a mathematician, and I'm like, "I really like math 'cause it is objective. One plus one equals two." And he's like, "Well, the further you get in math, the less that actually is true, and the more 'One plus one equals two' is a philosophical statement, not an actual objective truth." And we talked about the nature of, the further you dig into things--

So, I tried to build the cosmere magic-- For instance, how the Bands of Mourning work. We are getting away from Step 1, which is, "Metals push or pull." We can get that. Into Step 2, where we are building complex machines out of the interactions between the magic. And we will then get to Step 3, where it's like, we can explain the principles, but you need to be a computer engineer to understand exactly how the computer is working. And I wanted to be able to build to get to that point. With the philosophy of, "What is the power, what is the individual, what is the intent," and things like that, we're kind of going that direction, in a philosophical direction. What does it mean? What are the answers?

Humans like things to be divided and put in boxes, but in nature, these boxes are usually arbitrary, of our distinction. So, I like that aspect of our interaction with the real world. So, the answer to your question is, this is not a question for me, this is a question for philosophers. Where does the intent stop, and the being begin? And what does it mean to have a body? Is the body of the original person that has taken up the Shard, the Vessel, when that drops out when they die, is that their real body? Or is that just the power pushing out something that it absorbed and recreating it, and dropping a copy of it? What is that? What's going on there? What's it mean? How much can a Vessel influence their intent? This is all a question for philosophers, that I'm going to explore in the books, but it's not the sort of thing that you're like--

Does one plus one equal two? The answer is, one plus one equals two according to this proof that we believe explains the universe, but is a little fuzzier than you think it is.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

Says that just using the magics as we've seen them in Era 1 was "step one."

The storming Bands of Mourning are "step two." 

"Step three" is going to be complicated enough that we can explain the general idea but your going to need a Metallic Arts Engineering degree to actually understand how things work. 

There is no way in my mind that Hemalurgy isn't a part of that. 

[Karger]

My one problem with this theory is the scarcity of Metalborn in the south.  If this is in fact true the number of people who you can metalurgize(that is a word now!) is quite limited.  They are also considered divine hemalurgizing them might provoke a negative reaction. 

Edited September 25, 2019 by Karger

[Calderis]

Just now, Karger said:

My one problem with this theory is the scarcity of Metalborn in the south.  If this is in fact true the number of people who you can (that is a word now!) is quite limited.  They are also considered divine hemalurgizing them might provoke a negative reaction. 

I think it's the opposite actually.

One, I think compounding spikes is a necessity to make up for the scarcity. 

And Two, I think part of the reason they are held in such awe and respect is because everyone knows that at some point they are expected to give up their own life to make the way of life of the Southerners possible. 

Without the heat medallions, the Southerners die. They literally live or die based on the sacrifice of the few. I'd be reverent too. 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

And Two, I think part of the reason they are held in such awe and respect is because everyone knows that at some point they are expected to give up their own life to make the way of life of the Southerners possible. 

They could be held in aw and respect just because they make life possible.  No giving up of life required.

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

They could be held in aw and respect just because they make life possible.  No giving up of life required.

And as I've said many times before, if the medallions are not based in Hemalurgy, I would very much like an explanation for what the "Excisors" are, when Brandon has use the term "excise" for Hemalurgic theft. 

Hemalurgy isn't going away. 

[Karger]

Just now, Calderis said:

And as I've said many times before, if the medallions are not based in Hemalurgy, I would very much like an explanation for what the "Excisors" are, when Brandon has use the term "excise" for Hemalurgic theft. 

Hemalurgy isn't going away. 

I was offering an alternative explanation for a phenomena.  I did not say that hemalurgy is going away.  Also Excisors could just be identity and investiture storing metalminds.

[HSuperLee]

This could definitely add to the drama of the culture clash that will inevitably happen in the last book, with pretty much all of hemalurgy being associated with the Inquisitors and evil in Northern Scadrial. I'm sure there would be a whole, "Your technology relies on killing people!" "People who willingly give up their lives to protect their people." "Do they even have a choice!?" exchange. In other words I'm saying I can totally see it. Especially as I've seen multiple threads on this forum trying to find ethical processes for Hemalurgy.

 

Also, because it is somewhat relevant and I haven't said it in a while, I'm just going to remind everyone of my belief that in Era 4 Fullborn will be the Cosmere equivalent of Kryptonians.

[Quantus]

14 hours ago, Calderis said:

I think it's the opposite actually.

One, I think compounding spikes is a necessity to make up for the scarcity. 

And Two, I think part of the reason they are held in such awe and respect is because everyone knows that at some point they are expected to give up their own life to make the way of life of the Southerners possible. 

Without the heat medallions, the Southerners die. They literally live or die based on the sacrifice of the few. I'd be reverent too. 

You know, Sazed made some "change" that allowed Koloss to breed true...  What If: the change he made wass broader than just kolos, what the change was that any piece of spiritweb that was spiked in becomes integrated enough to breed true in their offspring.  Meaning any person that gets an ability spiked into them could start a brand new misting/ferring bloodline.  This could go a long way to solving the long-term issue scadrial is likely to have with the metallic arts bloodlines diluting out. 

 

[Isilel]

On 25.9.2019 at 2:56 PM, Quantus said:

 What If: the change he made wass broader than just kolos, what the change was that any piece of spiritweb that was spiked in becomes integrated enough to breed true in their offspring.

 

The problem here is that Sazed is opposed to hemalurgy even as of the 2nd Era, so why would he have done this? Also, the WoBs on whether spike-conferred Metallic Arts can be inherited are contradictory, with the newer ones leaning towards "no". And, of course, Sanderson always stresses in the WoBs how evil spiking somebody is and how it has bad consequences for the spikee's soul, which I personally find rather frustrating, because I don't see why with medallion or ettmetall-mediated healing spiking can't become something akin to donating a kidney or even the bone marrow. I.e. not something to be done casually, but still very worthwhile. Both to preserve and spread Metallic Arts and to allow the birth of new kandra.

 

On 25.9.2019 at 2:56 PM, Quantus said:

  Meaning any person that gets an ability spiked into them could start a brand new misting/ferring bloodline.  This could go a long way to solving the long-term issue scadrial is likely to have with the metallic arts bloodlines diluting out.

 

Frankly, I am somewhat perplexed why, when Harmony was remaking the surviving northeners anyway, he didn't make most of them into Ferrings. I mean, I see why making everybody an allomancer would have been frought, because it would have further unbalanced the Preservation-Ruin equation, but Feruchemy  is neutral and it would have been very fitting for the Scadrians, created exclusively by these two Shards, to have it innately. And while Full Feruchemy is over-powerful and could have inhibited technological development, having just one power apiece not only wouldn't have had this effect, but likely would have jump-started the very line of inquiry that Harmony wanted them to follow. After all, the southeners also didn't arrive at their Metallic Arts magitech organically - Kelsier, who was a demigod at this point, just handed it's basic principles over to them.

As to Allomancy, Sanderson could have just written that for people who have genes for both it and Feruchemy, Allomancy is normally dominant and supresses Feruchemy. Except for the rare flukes who become the Twinborn. Oh, well...

[Halyo_Alex]

6 hours ago, Isilel said:

 

As to Allomancy, Sanderson could have just written that for people who have genes for both it and Feruchemy, Allomancy is normally dominant and supresses Feruchemy. Except for the rare flukes who become the Twinborn. Oh, well...

Actually Brandon has said that the allomancy and Feruchemy genes inhibit each other, making it close to impossible for a natural born fullborn, and super unlikely for a mistborn with 1 ferring power, or a feruchemist with one misting power.

[Karger]

On 9/24/2019 at 5:36 PM, Halyo_Alex said:

This, i propose, is how a Medallion works:
Step 1: Obtain Aluminum and Nicrosil feruchemy, however you see fit. (probably hemalurgically.)
Step 2: Spike someone's feruchemical power out of them, spike yourself with it.
Step 3: blank your Identity with Aluminum, store the bit of Spiritweb inside

How does one reverse engineer this possess?  Remember TLR experimented for a thousand years with hemalurgy and did not figure out any combinations but the three he ascended with.  Allik mentions that they reverse engineered the ones the sovereign gave them to figure out the manner of creation.

[Halyo_Alex]

17 hours ago, Karger said:

How does one reverse engineer this possess?  Remember TLR experimented for a thousand years with hemalurgy and did not figure out any combinations but the three he ascended with.  Allik mentions that they reverse engineered the ones the sovereign gave them to figure out the manner of creation.

TLR didn't know about the existence of Nicrosil or Chromium, IIRC. Or at least, he didn't study their effects or find them useful. Really the only Enhancement/Spiritual metals he seemed to be broadly aware of was Aluminum and Duralumin. Don't you think he would have given Inquisitors Chromium and Nicrosil for allomancy if he could?

[Calderis]

45 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

TLR didn't know about the existence of Nicrosil or Chromium, IIRC. Or at least, he didn't study their effects or find them useful. Really the only Enhancement/Spiritual metals he seemed to be broadly aware of was Aluminum and Duralumin. Don't you think he would have given Inquisitors Chromium and Nicrosil for allomancy if he could?

We don't know that he didn't know about them, we just know he didn't bother to share them in the storage caches, probably because the people of TFE didn't have the technology to make the metals even if they did know about them. 

There are a good number of people who think that he made himself some Nicrosil and that how he achieved his ridiculous strength in allomancy that allowed him to south thousands of people continually even through copper clouds.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Halyo_Alex said:

TLR didn't know about the existence of Nicrosil or Chromium, IIRC. Or at least, he didn't study their effects or find them useful. Really the only Enhancement/Spiritual metals he seemed to be broadly aware of was Aluminum and Duralumin. Don't you think he would have given Inquisitors Chromium and Nicrosil for allomancy if he could?

Maybe?  I don't see how this is relevant.  My point is that hemalurgy is by no means intuitive.  To get anywhere without you either need spirit acquired knowledge or many many many years with a large group of test subjects that the southerners do not have.