The Set's Immortals

[Mushroom Catalog]

At the end of Bands of Mourning, Edwarn Ladrian gets blown up in a rather dramatic fashion. After finishing my re-read of it, I was thinking about the phrasing Brandon uses in that scene and decided that:

The Set's Faceless Immortals are NOT Kandra.

1) Why would a Kandra effectively commit suicide when there are far better ways to do it. I highly doubt Trell, who presumably controls them, would want to waste a Kandra to blow up this dude when there are far better ways to do it. Why not make a timer bomb? Or remote control, or remote detonation? They have electricity.

2) Spikes. Blowing themselves up would almost certainly cause them to lose the spikes. The way it is described, the Kandra would be blown to literal bits and lose its spikes. The spikes would then be lying among the bloody chunks of human flesh. Wax would figure it out, with Harmony's help, that they have Kandra.

3) The way Edwarn describes the Kandra. He says that it was wearing the stolen body from a beggar. Not - it had the body of a beggar, or it was wearing the shape of a beggar, but it was the stolen body of a beggar.

But if not a Kandra, what is it?

A cognitive shadow body snatcher. (Do I need spoilers?) With Oathbringer, 

Spoiler

we see the fused steal the bodies of the Parshendi, and their eyes glow red, like the body snatcher in BoM

This would explain the word stolen. It also explains the red eyes. (maybe. Just going with it being stolen body stuff)

The body snatcher would be willing to blow itself up. It has no spikes to lose. Its cognitive shadow will still be floating around, ready to steal another body. 

And the last part is the talk of other Realms. With cognitive shadows already floating around, why not make more? Kill Edwarn, who is no longer needed, and make him part of your body snatcher army.

[Calderis]

I agree on the method. Just not the culprits. 

Personally, I think it's (Elantris spoilers) 

Spoiler

The Svrakiss. My suspension started from this WoB. 

Quote

Questioner

Miles Hundredlives, is he possessed by a svrakiss from Elantris?

Brandon Sanderson

*long pause* That's a RAFO, you are onto something... I wouldn't say possessed, but influenced by something is definitely a possibility. You are not 100% on.

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014)

It would also explain why Brandon has said he. Eeds to write the Elantris sequels before Era three for "behind the scenes reason" 

 

[Elsecaller_17.5]

I don’t think you’ll find many people that argue they are Kandra, but that still leaves the question of what they are.

Stormlight

Spoiler

I think they’re the sleepless. 

I’d bet Edwarn thinks their Kandra though and that’s where the stolen body comment came from. Furthermore a Sleepless would be able to replicate the signature ability of a Kandra and change it’s form. Heck, we don’t know a lot about their physiology but they might even be able to survive a explosion if they leave enough hordelings behind.

 

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

I don’t think you’ll find many people that argue they are Kandra, but that still leaves the question of what they are.

Stormlight

  Reveal hidden contents

I think they’re the sleepless. 

I’d bet Edwarn thinks their Kandra though and that’s where the stolen body comment came from. Furthermore a Sleepless would be able to replicate the signature ability of a Kandra and change it’s form. Heck, we don’t know a lot about their physiology but they might even be able to survive a explosion if they leave enough hordelings behind.

 

Spoiler

The Sleepless have no need of the glowing red eyes. Thats specifically a product of co-opted Investiture. Possession. Hijacking. Corruption. 

A Sleepless could imitate a person without need if any of that. 

 

[Mushroom Catalog]

Would that mean that Trell is working with the Svrakiss? Because the Set is very heavily influenced by Trell, so I would think that it is mostly Trell doing the minion stuff. Are Svrakiss related to Trell?

[Calderis]

22 minutes ago, Mushroom Catalog said:

Would that mean that Trell is working with the Svrakiss? Because the Set is very heavily influenced by Trell, so I would think that it is mostly Trell doing the minion stuff. Are Svrakiss related to Trell?

Elantris and Stormlight spoilers. 

Spoiler

The Svrakiss were "the ancient enemies of Jaddeth" 

Quote

“Hate has weakened your ability to see, Arteth,” Hrathen said, hanging his breastplate on the wall beside his desk and smiling. He had just experienced a flash of brilliance; a portion of his plan suddenly fit into place. “You assume because Jaddeth did not give them powers, they did not have any.”
Dilaf’s face grew pale. “What you say is—”
“Not blasphemy, Arteth. Doctrine. There is another supernatural force besides our God.”
“The Svrakiss,” Dilaf said quietly.
“Yes.” Svrakiss. The souls of the dead men who hated Jaddeth, the opponents to all that was holy. According to Shu-Dereth, there was nothing more bitter than a soul who had had its chance and thrown it away.
“You think the Elantrians are Svrakiss?” Dilaf asked.
“It is accepted doctrine that the Svrakiss can control the bodies of the evil,” Hrathen said, unbuckling his greaves. “Is it so hard to believe that all this time they have been controlling bodies of the Elantrians, making them appear as gods to fool the simpleminded and unspiritual?”

Trell has been, through process of elimination, narrowed down to either bring Odium or Autonomy. 

Considering that Odium is bound up in Stormlight, and I expect that to remain true in one way or another, I lean heavily towards Autonomy. 

If it is Autonomy, that would have to mean that she helped Odium to take out Dominion and Devotion. 

Either way, hopefully we'll get clues in the Elantris sequels. 

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by Calderis

[+Harrycrapper]

Personally, I think they're Kandra made from mistwraiths with only the unknown metal spikes that Bleeder had. If Svrakiss are a real thing, they seem like cognitive entities that would be bound to Sel similar to how Spren are bound to Roshar. I don't think they care if they leave behind more spikes, they seem to be planning on killing all sentient life on Scadrial, they might not care about being subtle anymore.

[Zapata]

As for the quote about the stolen body, couldn't that just mean that the kandra or another Set member killed the beggar so the kandra could have the bones?

[+Invocation]

15 minutes ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

As for the quote about the stolen body, couldn't that just mean that the kandra or another Set member killed the beggar so the kandra could have the bones?

The red eye thing wouldn't be happening if that was the case, since it's just mimicry and no co opted Investiture. It's far more likely that the eyes are a result a stapling that feeds on and corrupts the natural Investiture of the host body.

[Zapata]

18 minutes ago, Invocation said:

The red eye thing wouldn't be happening if that was the case, since it's just mimicry and no co opted Investiture. It's far more likely that the eyes are a result a stapling that feeds on and corrupts the natural Investiture of the host body.

You may be right. As we saw with Bleeder, the new metal does not change the eyes. The body quote by itself could mean a murderous kandra, but it would have to be a really investiturally messed up kandra to have red eyes. Not just a new spike. So, it's likely that the Faceless Immortal is something else.

[Elsecaller_17.5]

17 hours ago, Calderis said:

  Reveal hidden contents

The Sleepless have no need of the glowing red eyes. Thats specifically a product of co-opted Investiture. Possession. Hijacking. Corruption. 

A Sleepless could imitate a person without need if any of that. 

 

Oh, that’s a good point.

[Zapata]

On 9/23/2019 at 4:12 PM, Calderis said:

  Hide contents

The Sleepless have no need of the glowing red eyes. Thats specifically a product of co-opted Investiture. Possession. Hijacking. Corruption. 

A Sleepless could imitate a person without need if any of that. 

 

I agree with this. Based on the red eyes, a kandra is actually more likely than a Sleepless, but still not very likely. Kandra are products of an Invested Art, and that magic completely changes them mentally.

Spoiler

on the other hand, Sleepless are organisms. They are bugs that share a hive mind. They don't need shardic investiture to live or think. So, there's nothing to corrupt.

Of course, either one might have the ability to make their eyes red on purpose, but what reason would the Faceless Immortal have to do that?

[+Oltux72]

On 9/23/2019 at 10:16 PM, Mushroom Catalog said:

Would that mean that Trell is working with the Svrakiss? Because the Set is very heavily influenced by Trell, so I would think that it is mostly Trell doing the minion stuff. Are Svrakiss related to Trell?

Are we really sure about Trell? (Elantris spoilers)

Spoiler

Era 2 is at least a thousand years after Elantris. Could the Skaze be reforming Dominion? Or at least a subset of it?

 

[Kalaksbreath]

 

 

 

 

 

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On 9/23/2019 at 4:02 PM, Invocation said:

The red eye thing wouldn't be happening if that was the case, since it's just mimicry and no co opted Investiture. It's far more likely that the eyes are a result a stapling that feeds on and corrupts the natural Investiture of the host body.

Bleader may not have had red eyes because she only had one spike and the red eyes are a result of corrupted hemalurgic spikes and one spike was not enough to get the red eyes.

[Calderis]

@Kalaksbreath two spikes would mean that Sazed could locate and take control of a Kandra. They wouldn't be a threat at all at that point. 

[Kalaksbreath]

Just now, Calderis said:

@Kalaksbreath two spikes would mean that Sazed could locate and take control of a Kandra. They wouldn't be a threat at all at that point. 

Or it could mean that Trell could take control of her because Sazed didn't know of the metal she was using and harmony couldn't affect the metal as much as a normal spike.

[Calderis]

32 minutes ago, Kalaksbreath said:

Or it could mean that Trell could take control of her because Sazed didn't know of the metal she was using and harmony couldn't affect the metal as much as a normal spike.

The spikes she was using were Trell's metal, and she still only used one. 

The "hole" in Hemalurgy isn't reliant in the metal, and isn't limited by Shard, or even to Shards. The spike breaks down the natural defenses the integrity of Spiritual provides. 

Quote

Chaos2651

Is there a rationale to how Hemalurgic powers are distributed? I tried to look for a system, but they seem rather randomly distributed. For example, the spike which steals Allomantic powers for a particular quadrant is not always in one particular spot.

Brandon Sanderson

That is correct, it's not always in one particular spot. None of them are. I used as my model on this magic system the concept of acupuncture and pressure points. Placing a Hemalurgic spike is a very delicate and specific art. Imagine there being a different overlay on a human body, like a new network of nerves, representing lines, points, and 'veins' of the soul's spiritual makeup.

What is happening with Hemalurgy, essentially, is that you're driving a spike through a specific point on a person's body and ripping off a piece of their soul. It sticks to the spike on the Spiritual Realm. Then, you place that spike on someone else in a specific place (not exactly the same place, but on the right spiritual pressure point) and 'hot wire' the spirit to give it Hemalurgy or Feruchemy. It's like you're fooling the spiritual DNA, creating a work-around. Or, in some cases, changing the spirit to look like something else, which has the immediate effect of distorting the body and transforming it into a new creature.

Hemalurgy is a very brutal way of making changes like this, though, so it often has monstrous effects. (Like with the koloss.) And in most cases, it leaves a kind of 'hole' in the spirit's natural defenses, which is how Ruin was able to touch the souls of Hemalurgists directly.

Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009)

Anyone with a means to reach into a person can manipulate that hole. The Kandra and full Koloss are vulnerable to Trell as much as Harmony. 

[+Harrycrapper]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

The spikes she was using were Trell's metal, and she still only used one. 

The "hole" in Hemalurgy isn't reliant in the metal, and isn't limited by Shard, or even to Shards. The spike breaks down the natural defenses the integrity of Spiritual provides. 

Anyone with a means to reach into a person can manipulate that hole. The Kandra and full Koloss are vulnerable to Trell as much as Harmony. 

This contradicts my earlier position, but if Trell really is an avatar of Autonomy, wouldn't controlling people in that fashion go against the Intent of Autonomy? I feel like Autonomy would have a difficult time overcoming that, similar to how Preservation couldn't control people with spikes because it went against the Intent of Preservation. Dominion would definitely be capable of doing that if I'm correct on the earlier points. 

[Calderis]

42 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

This contradicts my earlier position, but if Trell really is an avatar of Autonomy, wouldn't controlling people in that fashion go against the Intent of Autonomy? I feel like Autonomy would have a difficult time overcoming that, similar to how Preservation couldn't control people with spikes because it went against the Intent of Preservation. Dominion would definitely be capable of doing that if I'm correct on the earlier points. 

That's fair. I personally disagree with the common position on what "Autonomy" as an intent means, but if the common assumption is accurate it may be a problem. 

[Karger]

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

That's fair. I personally disagree with the common position on what "Autonomy" as an intent means, but if the common assumption is accurate it may be a problem. 

Brandon said is would be accurate to think of Autonomy is an opposite of Honor.  I think under this interpretation @Harrycrapper is correct.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Karger

[Calderis]

Just now, Karger said:

Brandon said is would be accurate to think of Autonomy is an opposite of Honor.  I think under this interpretation @Harrycrapper is correct.

He said you "could think of it that way" and that they would be "more likely to be opposed than some others." 

Quote

Nashan'Elin (paraphrased)

Could Honor and Autonomy be considered opposites, like, Autonomy freeing from Honor's oaths?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, you could definitely think of it that way. Those two are more likely to be opposed than some others.

Calamity Denver signing (Feb. 19, 2016)

Which tells us nothing concrete about the intent.