The Traveller

thoughts on voidbinding

50 posts in this topic

"Unless maybe Brandon is playing with words (we've seen those things, but we haven't seen them doing magic)."

is this something that brandon said? 

well if so, then there is one instance that comes to mind where this is possible.

During the battle of Thaylen City, the Amaram's army appears to have bonded with Voidspren. it was said also by i think one of the fused that

lord, have you learnt to bond voidspren with humans? to which odium replies that it was always possible but it requires a specific mindset and environment to achieve..

i think, what those soldiers were doing were forming the equivalent of Nahel Bond with voidspren. they probably were capable of voidbinding. but we never saw it onscreen

because they were very newly formed and knew not how to.. 

moreover, the moment dalinar trapped thrill, the environment + mindset changed and they may be kind of lost their bond to the voidspren and are left crying. i think some were 

even heard crying that why have you abandoned me so!! 

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3 hours ago, The traveller said:

During the battle of Thaylen City, the Amaram's army appears to have bonded with Voidspren. it was said also by i think one of the fused that

lord, have you learnt to bond voidspren with humans? to which odium replies that it was always possible but it requires a specific mindset and environment to achieve..

The army seems to have bonded Yelig-nar aka the thrill.  This does not necessarily mean that they can voidbind(especially considering that we don't realy know what Voidbinding is).

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15 hours ago, Karger said:

The army seems to have bonded Yelig-nar aka the thrill.  This does not necessarily mean that they can voidbind(especially considering that we don't realy know what Voidbinding is).

Nergaoul is the thrill, Yelig-nar is the one Amaram bonded to. 

19 hours ago, The traveller said:

think, what those soldiers were doing were forming the equivalent of Nahel Bond with voidspren.

I don't think that the Sadeas army had something like a Nahel bond. I think it was like what the singers do. Without a gemheart, bonding with a spren is only as permanent as the emotional state that draws them... And the thrill held them in the correct emotional state. 

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“Deep within his helm, something started glowing red. The dark spren flew toward the men, finding welcoming bodies and willing flesh. The red mist made them lust, made their minds open. And the spren, then, bonded to the men, slipping into those open souls. “Master, you have learned to inhabit humans?” Turash said to Subservience. “Spren have always been able to bond with them, Turash,” Odium said. “It merely requires the right mindset and the right environment.””

And later ash looks at sadeas men and thinks 

“eyes glowing with the light of corrupted Investiture. Odium has learned to possess men. A dark, dangerous day. He’d always been able to tempt them to fight for him, but sending spren to bond with them? Terrible.”

 

this makes me think that they were bonding some voidspren and not red mist 

and it was a new bond something similar to bagel bond and not like singers 

 

 

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20 hours ago, Calderis said:

Nergaoul is the thrill, Yelig-nar is the one Amaram bonded to. 

Sorry missed the name.

 

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6 hours ago, The traveller said:

this makes me think that they were bonding some voidspren and not red mist 

and it was a new bond something similar to bagel bond and not like singers 

How is that different than Stormform? The mindset fails when the Thrill is captured, and the men regain their minds. 

Humans aren't capable of the physical changes that singers are, and they don't have a gemheart to hold the spren indefinitely... But they draw the spren through proper mindset in the same way. 

If it were like a Nahel bond, the spren wouldn't need to be internal. It wouldn't be taking over the person, and it wouldn't suddenly end because of a change in mood. 

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2 hours ago, Calderis said:

How is that different than Stormform? The mindset fails when the Thrill is captured, and the men regain their minds. 

Stormform or any other singer forms seems to me fairly parmanent. Until the next storm that is. Stormform requires a particular mindset yes but so do all singer forms while capturing the spren but stormform did not fail later even though eshonai struggled against it. 

and mindset is essential no matter what bond is being formed I guess due to the congnitive nature of spren. Even the oaths that KRs sweat is basically adopting the right kind of mindset 

 

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

 

Humans aren't capable of the physical changes that singers are, and they don't have a gemheart to hold the spren indefinitely... But they draw the spren through proper mindset in the same way. 

If it were like a Nahel bond, the spren wouldn't need to be internal. It wouldn't be taking over the person, and it wouldn't suddenly end because of a change in mood. 

 

I do not recall any physical changes in the soldiers only amaram. The only thing is red eyes but that could be a function of thrill and not the bond. 

Spren were seen around them but were they seen swallowing them ? I do not recall.

And this is not a nahel bond this could be something similar I.e. voidbond. It may be similar but need not work in exact manner as nahel bond!

the opening of soul and allowing voidspren to enter parts discribed in the text sound an awful lot like nahel bond to me. 

Singer forms if required opening of souls every single time they take on a spren ??? Does not make sense to me 

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On 9/20/2019 at 3:23 PM, The traveller said:

"Unless maybe Brandon is playing with words (we've seen those things, but we haven't seen them doing magic)."

is this something that brandon said? 

well if so, then there is one instance that comes to mind where this is possible.

During the battle of Thaylen City, the Amaram's army appears to have bonded with Voidspren. it was said also by i think one of the fused that

lord, have you learnt to bond voidspren with humans? to which odium replies that it was always possible but it requires a specific mindset and environment to achieve..

i think, what those soldiers were doing were forming the equivalent of Nahel Bond with voidspren. they probably were capable of voidbinding. but we never saw it onscreen

because they were very newly formed and knew not how to.. 

moreover, the moment dalinar trapped thrill, the environment + mindset changed and they may be kind of lost their bond to the voidspren and are left crying. i think some were 

even heard crying that why have you abandoned me so!! 

Sorry to say I disagree @The traveller. There are lesser Voidspren and Voidbinding capable Voidspren. Everyone at Thaylen City were using Stormlight to power their Surges instead of Voidlight... also I'm not to sure that Voidbinding is the manipulation of the Surges in the same manner as in Surgebinding. I would not consider what the Fused or the Regals were doing Voidbinding nor the Singers' Stormform and Amaram's army was under the Thrill of Nergaoul, which ended when Dalinar captured it.

Argent has a thread on this, I think called Three Magics of Roshar. He explains Odium's 'void' and "give me your pain" too.

I believe we've only seen the effects of lesser Voidspren. Ulim and that Voidspren Kaladin met leading the former Parshmen were definitely bond capable Voidspren though, but we haven't seen them bond someone yet.

 

Amaram's physical characteristics were definitely changed by the Unmade: it gave him red eyes and he started to sprout crystals... same as Queen Aesudan before him when she swallowed Yelig-Nar's gem.

Edited by Honorless
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2 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I would not consider what the Fused or the Regals were doing Voidbinding.

Me neither. 

But I think amaram’s army though might be.. 

On 9/20/2019 at 3:23 PM, The traveller said:

it was said also by i think one of the fused that

lord, have you learnt to bond voidspren with humans? to which odium replies that it was always possible but it requires a specific mindset and environment to achieve..

It is this mainly that made me think so.. 

mans there is something that shallash said too..

On 9/22/2019 at 0:40 AM, The traveller said:

And later ash looks at sadeas men and thinks 

“eyes glowing with the light of corrupted Investiture. Odium has learned to possess men. A dark, dangerous day. He’d always been able to tempt them to fight for him, but sending spren to bond with them? Terrible.”

This one...

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I think this is a new type of bond Odium came up with that is closer to a Nahel bond than the "live inside the gemheart" method the Singers use.

Humans don't have the anatomy to do what the singers do with the gemheart bond. That's why Amaram had to swallow a gemstone to bond with Yelig-nar. We didn't see all his men swallowing a gemstone previous to their eyes glowing. 

I agree with  @Honorless , this relies on the "give me your pain" mechanic instead of swearing a progression of oaths

Keeping ones word is an important aspect of Honor, as interpreted by Tanavast anyways. Growth / Progress is very important to Cultivation. KR don't swear all the oath's at once they swear one and prove they can keep it for a while then another and another etc. 

I'm not clear on whether they bonded the Thrill or whether the Thrill facilitated their bonding to voidspren by filling them up with glorious, wondrous PASSION. Filling them up to their breaking point with it. Overwhelming them to make it more likely that they will give their pain away.

"Passion, son. Glorious, wondrous passion. Emotion. It's what defines men - though ironically you are poor vessels for it. It fill you up and breaks you, unless you find someone on to share the burden" - Odium to Dalinar in OB Ch. 57

It seems like the Thrill was doing to them what it did to Dalinar when Odium tried to convert him. They all sag forward demoralized for a bit before their eyes glow, similar to how Dalinar collapses forward before his big comeback. 

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There are a lot of different Bonds we've seen of various levels.  The Nahel Bond, the Gemheart Form-bond, the bond between man and shard (blade or plate), the Honrblade Bond, the Oathpact (ie why the other heralds felt Vyre's attack), etc.  In the case of the Thrill at Thaylen Fields, we saw that happen on the Shadesmar side, where Nergaoul disappeared from shadesmar ("drawn by the enemy along ancient paths" according to the Oathgate spren) and then we saw the flames of the soldiers turning red.  This is definately a Bond, a Connection, but I dont think it has much in common with the Nahel Bond, relatively speaking.  It's too temporary, seems one-directional, and appears to require a lot more physical proximity than a Spiritual Realm Bond like the Nahel Bond.  

 

 

1 hour ago, The traveller said:

Me neither. 

But I think amaram’s army though might be.. 

It is this mainly that made me think so.. 

mans there is something that shallash said too..

This one...

Im sorry, I cant seem to parse out this post.  You were posting quotes of yourself but I cant figure out the point you were trying to make with them?

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33 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

agree with  @Honorless , this relies on the "give me your pain" mechanic instead of swearing a progression of oaths

 

Yes but it goes with what I am saying too. I don’t think voidbinding will be granted through oaths, that is honors thing, odium requires a particular emotional state, which thrill was facilitating. 

@Quantus those are quotes from OB which makes me think that amarams army was probably given voidbinding

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46 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Yes but it goes with what I am saying too. I don’t think voidbinding will be granted through oaths, that is honors thing, odium requires a particular emotional state, which thrill was facilitating. 

@Quantus those are quotes from OB which makes me think that amarams army was probably given voidbinding

Ah, gotcha, thanks. I think those are solid evidence that they were being affected by some kind of Corrupted Investiture (which Odium's mostly qualifies as), but since none of them actually performed any Surge-like actions, I really dont think we can call it Voidbinding.  I mean, the actual effect on them was less than the base effects of holding Stormlight, and seemed a lot closer to simply being affected by a very strong Rioter.  

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7 minutes ago, Quantus said:

but since none of them actually performed any Surge-like actions

Yes read somewhere that Brandon said we have seen voidbinders on page but they have not done any voidbinding... 

I cannot find this quote though, I looked. 

It could mean Renarin but I think he is something different entirely, 

so I propose that this army could be the ones. 

I like the idea of comparing thrill to a rioter.. does he not do rioting only? He is like a very strong rioter as his influence can be spread over vast geographical area and he riots people emotions, make them enjoy killing, he Creates mob frenzy 

Edited by The traveller
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1 hour ago, The traveller said:

Yes read somewhere that Brandon said we have seen voidbinders on page but they have not done any voidbinding... 

I cannot find this quote though, I looked. 

It could mean Renarin but I think he is something different entirely, 

so I propose that this army could be the ones. 

I like the idea of comparing thrill to a rioter.. does he not do rioting only? He is like a very strong rioter as his influence can be spread over vast geographical area and he riots people emotions, make them enjoy killing, he Creates mob frenzy 

I agree, I think Nergaoul is performing the same general AOE effect that Rioters have.  I would say he doesnt seem capable of inspiring the full spectrum of emotions that a Rioter can, but being one of the three Mindless Unmade might mean he simply doesnt have enough agency and/or subtly to consciously change the tone of his effect. On a similar note, the Heart of the Revel seems to me to be the other side of the Neragaoul coin, being a Soother equivalent.  Heart of the Revel drags down their emotions on a similar scope, but it's more antagonistic to the target than Soothing typically is.  

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5 hours ago, Quantus said:

On a similar note, the Heart of the Revel seems to me to be the other side of the Neragaoul coin, being a Soother equivalent.  Heart of the Revel drags down their emotions on a similar scope, but it's more antagonistic to the target than Soothing typically is

Yes totally. I was about to mention that but then forgot to do it. :D

it seems that effect wise they are more far reach geographically and their intensity is also much more but they have very limited range of emotions that they can affect. They are tweaking very specific emotions..

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1 minute ago, The traveller said:

it seems that effect wise they are more far reach geographically and their intensity is also much more but they have very limited range of emotions that they can affect. They are tweaking very specific emotions..

On the other hand they seem to be much more powerful then soothing.  People don't notice it as easily it is more insidious and it can effect people in shardplate(they should be shielded).

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33 minutes ago, Karger said:

On the other hand they seem to be much more powerful then soothing.  People don't notice it as easily it is more insidious and it can effect people in shardplate(they should be shielded).

Yes I said thrill is more powerful in terms of the intensity of his affect but the range of emotions he can tweak is limited 

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On 9/21/2019 at 9:33 PM, The traveller said:

Stormform or any other singer forms seems to me fairly parmanent. Until the next storm that is. Stormform requires a particular mindset yes but so do all singer forms while capturing the spren but stormform did not fail later even though eshonai struggled against it. 

and mindset is essential no matter what bond is being formed I guess due to the congnitive nature of spren. Even the oaths that KRs sweat is basically adopting the right kind of mindset

 

On 9/21/2019 at 9:33 PM, The traveller said:

I do not recall any physical changes in the soldiers only amaram. The only thing is red eyes but that could be a function of thrill and not the bond

Your breaking my point in half, and making it mean something different than what I tried to say. 

Singers draw a spren into their gemheart, which integrates it more fully into their self and traps it, creating both permanence of the bond and the form changes. 

Humans draw it in, have no gemheart to trap the spren, experience no physical changes, and lose the bond as soon as the mindset shifts. 

I think that the fact that the voidspren/Fused with Amaram’s army actually entered into their bodies to take control, and fled when the Thrill was captured, means that this is far far closer to what the singers do than the Nahel bond. If humans had gemhearts, I don't think the Thrill would have been needed, or that it would have ended when the Thrill was caught. 

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11 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I think that the fact that the voidspren/Fused with Amaram’s army actually entered into their bodies to take control, and fled when the Thrill was captured, means that this is far far closer to what the singers do than the Nahel bond. If humans had gemhearts, I don't think the Thrill would have been needed, or that it would have ended when the Thrill was caught.

ok that is possible too, i get your point.

But amaram and aesudan, i thought do something more similar to Singers and they actually swallow the gemheart, Aesudan even said that she had found a way to work around the gemheart issue, i think. 

and since there was no swallowing of gemhearts by A's army, i thought it is something different and may be closer to Nahel bond version for voidbinding...  

Edited by The traveller
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I, for one, don't think Voidbinding requires a bond to begin with. That seems like Honor's thing, considering his already established love of bonds. Why would Odium's magic system have the same method of entry as Honor's?

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24 minutes ago, Inky said:

Why would Odium's magic system have the same method of entry as Honor's?

Roshar magics just seem to work that way.

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Just now, Karger said:

Roshar magics just seem to work that way.

What magic have we seen besides Surgebinding and Fabrials?

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1 minute ago, Inky said:

What magic have we seen besides Surgebinding and Fabrials?

Lift is an intro to Cultivation's magic system.  We have seen singer bonds.  All of these seem to require a bond of some kind.

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