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shatteredsmooth

Junk Junction Sub 8(Ch. 11 part 2 and Ch. 12)_9162019_4274 word

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Hi All,
I had been planning to read over this one more time, but I had a long day at work, and my students used most of my ability read words and make sense of them.
 
This submission starts with the second part of Ch. 11, right where the other submission left off. 
 
I think I need help making 11.5 make sense and/or making the backstory make sense. 
 
I'm uncertain about the pacing / reactions in 12. Where should I slow down? Where do I need to show more reaction from my characters?
 
Any other feedback you have is welcome, but like usual, don't worry about correcting grammar. It's probably a little worse this time than usual. 
 
Thanks!
 
Sara
 
P.S. I will get caught up on submissions soon. I haven't quite worked out how to efficiently manage my time now that I'm back to my full teaching and tutoring schedule. 
 
Notes regarding earlier changes that affect these chapters:
 
 
The sword might be more of a dagger or dirk now
 
Alex "reads" by absorbing previous readers' memories from books. Or, in the case of a handwritten journal, the writers' memories. 
 
p. 5 There is talk of M's motives, which was set up when I revised the chapter that the kids found the journal in. 
 
p. 7 The ghost spray wasn't in the version you read. It's been in my head for a couple weeks. It's in the new version of 10 and in my notes to add to earlier chapters when I revise again.
 
Previously in Junk Junction:
Ch. 1-2: E's mom gets turned into a mannequin in an antique shop. A haunted doll helps E's and the shop dog escape the same fate. 
Ch. 3-4: E gathers supplies from Junk Junction and does research in a library. Then they venture out to find food and a psychic. They meet D, a 13-year-old psychic whose mom is missing. They think D's mom's disappears is related to E's mom and Mx.R getting turned into mannequins.  
Ch. 5-6: E & D do research in D's mom's office. D tells E more about the circumstances surrounding her mom's disappearance.  In the morning, the two kids return to the shop, only to find the mannequins gone and the phrase "come find me" spelled out with teacups. 
Ch. 7: E & D return to Junk Junction, only to find the mannequins missing along with an assortment of other items. They go to D's house, and find some of the missing items are there along with another message from M. 
Ch. 8-9: E & D get back to the office safe. A makes a mess throwing books around and finds an journal with some potentially useful information. E learns how to more clearly sense ghosts and their energy. The next morning, E, D, and A leave for the mill. On the way, they discover a river full of bones presumably stolen from their graves by M in an attempt to find A's bones. 
Chapter 10: The group gets to the mill. A disappears. The moms aren't there. E and D are ambushed by a group of mannequins that M is controlling like puppets. They defeat the mannequins and escape.
Ch. 11 part 1: The kids hideout in the woods. We learn that M isn't 100% evil and that A was absent from the fight because he was caught in a memory loop.
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Overall, I thought this was a bit scattered. Once they're in the house, the tension keeps up. However before that, I was uncertain as to how they found the house and what purpose the ghost served at the barn. 

I'm also not really on board with tagging an extremely poisonous plant as a way to get rid of ghosts. The fact that the ghost dog avoids it wouldn't really mean anything. If I recall correctly, poison ivy doesn't work as well on dogs and cats, so maybe its owner just avoided that patch and the ghost is used to it. In addition, you really should never burn poison ivy. Getting it in your lungs can be deadly and having that as a plot point in a mid-grade book seems...unwise.

I have some notes about A's backstory below. I thought it mostly made sense, but parts of it need to be planted earlier for it to have the full impact.

 

Notes while reading:
pg 1: "almost everywhere but the trail" "bear to lumber over the edge" "we weren’t on the trail"
--So they're on the trail, but not on the trail? And a bear is going to lumber over the edge of what?

pg 2: "I kept seeing a spectral fluffy tail"
--Is this G's tail? I'm not sure.

pg 2: "It may have been abandoned now, but I had been here before. "
--I'm not sure what this sentence is saying.

pg 3: "Books were dusty and probably collecting mold too on a brown shelf"
--there are books in an old barn in the middle of nowhere?

pg 3: "A was here for a time too, sitting on my shelves. "
--ok, that's...sort of convenient.

pg 4: "The house had last sold in the eighties"
--what house? Is this connected to the barn? I'm not sure I'm following.

pg 5: "I knew that M was a ghost of someone who wasn’t entirely human. I knew that by taking life from other people, she could come back to life or turn into something new."
--is she inhuman? I know she's got some sort of weird power now, but this makes me think you mean she wasn't human when she was alive. Also, do we actually know that she's trying to come back to life?

pg 5: "M’s son"
--this is new. I didn't know she had a son or that he was involved in all this.

pg 6: "It’s probably why she helped me, and later, why she hated me so much. Why she caused the fire that killed us and so many other people."
--A and B being together makes sense, but needs to be a lot earlier, when A talks about what happened with M. However, that doesn't explain why M hated him, or why she caused a fire.

pg 7: "Poison ivy repelled ghosts!"
--okkkaaay. I mean, it repels people too, to be honest.

pg 7: "The letters were tiny and the words big. "
--this sounds like the letters of the words are tiny, but somehow make words that are in large print. Maybe "the words long"

pg 8: "Dousing a ghost in poison ivy smoke banishes them from this world just like burning their bones would. Unfortunately, breathing it can make you a ghost.”
--I....hmmm. It's an interesting plot point, but I'm not sure talking about burning and smoking and incredibly dangerous plant is really good for a mid-grade book? I'm fairly sure poison ivy has never been considered magical for anything, so I guess a plus on inventive worldbuilding?

pg 9: "filled the plastic bags with poison ivy"
--with...gloves? I have many problems with voluntarily going into a field of poison ivy. I've tangled with it enough in my life that I never want to go near it.

pg 9: Maybe it's WRS, but do we know how they found this house? I can't remember.

pg 11: "but a wave of it blurred my vision"
--a wave of what?

pg 11: "A really was pulling his weight this time."
--indeed. Didn't he have some limit last time on how much he could do?
"He fell back into his doll,"
--ah. I guess he is tired.

pg 12: "grabbed the leash and pulled him back just before bearded jaws clamped onto the mouse."
--I mean, okay, but does it really matter here?

pg 12: "It rocked back and forth as its legs slowly came apart."
--like, fell apart? Is it still walking?

pg 13: "The wide, ornate carpeted staircase ran down into the foyer and did not go all the way down to the basement."
--I'm not sure what this has to do with the paragraphs around it.

pg 13: "I got disoriented in the fall and don’t remember which side of the house is in which direction.”
--can't they just look up? They should be able to see through the giant hole where they fell through.

pg 14: "She wants to turn us into mannequins"
--How? Not with paint cans.

pg 15: Good ending to lead us into the next chapter!
 

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11 hours ago, Mandamon said:

In addition, you really should never burn poison ivy. Getting it in your lungs can be deadly and having that as a plot point in a mid-grade book seems...unwise.

Fair enough. I'm not attached to that and it was something relatively new to the manuscript, so I will definitely take it out. 

I haven't finished reading the comments, but this is an important one. The poison ivy thing was this weird whim that I probably should've just ignored...I kept talking myself into keeping it for illogical reasons. I'm sorry. 

 

Thank you!

Edited by shatteredsmooth
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This is a lot choppier than the previous section and I am having a hard time figuring out what's happening. It feels like the information is all jumbled up and out of order. For instance, I expected E to talk about how they knew of the barn when they first mentioned it looked familiar, but that information doesn't come until almost half a page later. 
 
I am also very unclear on where the house comes from.
 
I feel like the info about M and her powers and her wanting to come back to life should be hinted at earlier. Right now it feels to me like it's coming from nowhere. It does a good job of giving the villain a reason to be kidnapping people, so I like it. It just needs a bit more support from earlier. 
 
I also have some issues with the use of poison ivy in the ghost repellent. It feels a little... hmm... direct? for metaphysical uses. For a ghost repellent in this world, I'd expect, like, plants and herbs associated with forgetting, or warding off bad dreams or bad memories, discouraging unwanted guests... or like... peaceful rest... sleep... I could even see plants with antiseptic properties... I can't really describe exactly why, but poison ivy doesn't seem to fit where it's being used to me. 
 
The last time I touched something that had touched poison ivy, I had to have multiple rounds of those steroids that make you go a little loopy. Z-packs? I can't imagine what would happen to me if I had to collect bags of the stuff! :ph34r:
 
It's odd that after all that attention, the bags of poison ivy just sort disappear from the story once they get into the house. If it was as powerful as all that, wouldn't just having the plants in their bags repel some of M's attacks? What about A? Would he be repelled from his doll for sharing a backpack with the stuff? Could, like, entire forests be cut off from ghosts if the ivy made a complete circuit around an area? I'm overthinking, I know, I know. :) 
 
The scenes in the house itself were good and spooky, but also slightly confusing in the way things are described and the order they happen. 
 
Also, as an aside, if you neglect your lawn long enough, most municipalities will mow it for you! It'll be stupidly, ridiculously expensive and you can get a citation or even a lien, be fined (on top of the bill), and other not-great things, but make it look bad enough for somebody to complain and the "city" can and will fix it. 
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Overall

I think we are at the stage where action needs to happen. In the second half of chapter 11 in particular I was just done with books and travel and talking. I'm ready for the meat, the action, the resolution. I've got more specific comments below. 

The house seems to come out of nowhere, and some of the blocking confused me. Things get moving once they are in the house, which I appreciate, but makes me wonder what the point of the back half of chapter 11 accomplished, other than the poison ivy thing? As @Mandamon mentioned, potentially not the best idea for a MG novel as well, especially with the burning. I could think of any number of other plants, especially trees, that you could concentrate extractives from if you wanted something science/fun/silly to get ghosts with! Sassafras, in particular, would be a fun one.

 

As I go

- pg 2: There was something stronger in the barn. I’m not sure how I knew, but I got the sense it was peaceful, almost content holding on to something but also a little bored. <-- I'm not sure what you're trying to convey with these lines but they seem contradictory and confusing to me

- pg 4: at this stage I feel like we should be heavy in movement/action/tension, but the narrative reads slow and plodding. Speeding up actual events, and getting rid of more worldbuilding (or integrating it into action events) would be helpful here

- pg 6: It’s probably why she helped me, and later, why she hated me so much. <-- confused. Still not sure why she turned from liking him to hating him. Also this is so much talking and at this stage in the book I want action and resolution. It is very hard not to skim. I feel like we just keep going over and over information, sometimes new, sometimes not, but we never get anywhere

- you have a number of tense changes on pg 7

- pg 8: so our MC makes the connection to poison ivy, then has to check it out in a book. It would speed things up and not kill tension as much if they just make the connection. Done. And then in the final battle they learn the ways it has to be used. So maybe they go in confused and then through trial and error figure out how to use it or something. Right now I have 'reference material fatigue'

- pg 9: why the itching of arms and legs? I thought they knew not to put the stuff on skin? Or is it just in the mind thing?

- pg 10: you've called the sword a sword and a dagger, between this chapter and the last (of this sub). Just FYI

- pg 12: LOL love the santa thing

- pg 12: it's a sword again here

- pg 14: . They didn’t fly at us. They could’ve killed us if they hit our heads hard enough.  <-- this seems plot convenient. She just evaporated a floor but now can't levitate some paint cans?

- I like the end line

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Um. Yeah. I REALLY like the poison ivy connection and I think taking it out would be a mistake. First of all we saw it before so when it came back it felt surprising yet inevitable. I've also never seen poison ivy being used in a supernatural story like this. I like that it gave a book they had found earlier meaning. The danger of burning it gave the narrative a direction I was excited to see explored--E willing to risk themself to save others.

Edited by hawkedup
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Comments :) 

Chapter 11 (part)

(page 1)

- "over the edge" - edge of what? the trail? It sounds to me like a vertical feature though

(page 2)

- "a little bit fast" - one word will suffice here very well, like 'skipping', or some such.

- Nice, spooky description of the road and the trees.

- The prose could stand some tidying up: and incomplete sentence here, and repeated word there. My offer of complete LBL read through stands!

(page 3)

- There are typos and some phrasing on this page that make the narrative feel jerky. Also, the old man pops up delivers his exposition and leaves, that was pretty clunky for me.

(page 4)

- "accidentally set her free" - this is good background, I like getting some explanation about how we got here.

- "The faded print on the spines was covered in too much dust to read from a distance" - Yeah, a good language pass would really tidy things up. Not a criticism, 'cause that will be a following step, but here - for example, there's a much clearer version to be had, 'The spines were too dusty to read the faded print.' That's the jot of editing :) 

(page 5)

- "a ghost of someone who wasn’t entirely human" - Huh? I don't follow. "girls at tea parties" - no, wait, it's okay; WRS. I remember now.

(page 7)

- The poison ivy 'reveal' is good, but I'm getting a lot of WRS around the references that E makes, which makes it harder to have the 'oh, yes' moment that comes with a satisfying reveal. I remember poison ivy being mentioned before, but I don't recall the specifics like that missing ingredient that provide the clues. Maybe it's WRS, or maybe in those early mentions it needs to be flagged just a touch more, or maybe there needs to be something in the previous chapter reminding us that these are small mysteries: 'if only they could figure out Mom's missing ingredient...' sort of thing.

(page 8)

- "can make you a ghost" - Erm, doesn't think just  mean kill you?

- Nice to end the chapter on a hopeful note, and cunning plan, and good, heart-wrenching thought about not being able to go home without Mom <chokes up>

- Good stuff in this part of the previous chapter, but needs work for reason above. I think it will flow smoother once the language is tidied up.

Chapter 12

(page 9)

- "town that hadn’t quite woken" - love that image. For me, this is how you describe a setting really effectively without a big paragraph about, last remnants or mist on the grass (maybe dew), nobody on the streets, maybe a cat wandering by, papers still lying on the stoop. I think you get all that from the five words. Nice job.

- more great descriptive work on the old house.

(page 11)

- "a wave of it blurred my vision" - I don't follow this.

- "Rivers might be there" - ooooh!

- "floor disappeared" - Waaaahh!

- "slowed to a half" - a half what?

- "pulling his weight this time" - I think this is too much. I think it's obvious, but then I'm an adult. I this is, what, Junior grade / YA? I  forget. Then maybe not.

(page 12)

- "D’s arm brushed mine" - unsure what I'm to take from this.

- "Santa Clause" - sorry, I said I wasn't doing typos, but this is an old favourite ;) 

(page 13)

- "I’m never going to look at Christmas the same again" - I agree we need a punchline here, but this is kind of wordy, and maybe a tad pedestrians and predictable.

(page 14)

- D's dialogue here is really exposition-y and heavily ghost-splaining. I think it needs to be more informal, clipped, casual, and urgent. E's back to here is better.

(page 15)

- "A big thing" - wouldn't E with their enticing experience, know what this is? (Not saying I do, but there must be a name for it, Swedish dresser or something)?

- I feel like there are too many things staring at them. The army of heads is good, but the nutcracker is kind of a good guy, isn't he? I thought army of doll heads would have more impact on its own.

Overall 

Good stuff. I feel like there is good tension and thread in this chapter, and that M feels a bit more cornered, like they have found her lair. The glimpse of the family worked well for me. Lots of drafting tidy-up required. I'd love to get my teeth into that some time (no pressure), but I enjoyed the pacing, the reveals (subject to comments), and the agency of the M/Cs. A was good and active. Stressing that maybe he ran out of puff would not do any harm. Well he be able to help again, or does he now need to rest for several hours?

Thanks for subbing. I'm looking forward to the next bit, but only in your own time :) 

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On 18/09/2019 at 9:53 PM, industrialistDragon said:

I also have some issues with the use of poison ivy in the ghost repellent. It feels a little... hmm... direct?

I like the poison ivy smoke, because it feels like you've used smoke already, and there's a bit of a theme there (a bit). But actually poison ivy itself, I tend to agree with Mandamon. I can see that ghosts might avoid the plants because maybe they give off some kind of chemical, but it can't actually do a ghost real harm unless it's burned and produces the 'deadly' smoke?

On 18/09/2019 at 9:53 PM, industrialistDragon said:

if I had to collect bags of the stuff!

Yeah, that made me pause. Maybe mention need something about them using gloves and throwing them away. They could have put the stuff in hessian sacks so they could set them alight to produce the smoke.

18 hours ago, kais said:

it's a sword again here

It could be a short sword, but yes, point about consistency #LBLedit

5 hours ago, hawkedup said:

when it came back it felt surprising yet inevitable

Yeah, I liked the reveal; the deduction was good with some strengthening.

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So, I was also kinda confused by the sudden appearance of the cabin and the way it tied to everyone seemed too convenient. This isn't to say I didn't like it, but we definitely need to know about it much earlier. 

I don't know why but I feel like your physical descriptions took a big step up in this submission. Up until now I've had a hard time figuring out the logistics of the action but I thought the scene(s) were set really well. It also helped my mind's eye during some of the less detailed moments (like the flashback roof stuff).

I'm glad A seems to be an active character finally.

Really like the poison ivy call back. I remember that sticking out to me when I read it and when E figures it out I literally went "Oooohhhhhh..." and I almost never express myself verbally while reading. I also like that the thing they will need to help fight M is something as dangerous as poison ivy.

I kept meaning to ask in previous critiques and only remembered this time because you name drop Stephen King (ph not v), but have you read the book IT? Not only do I get a Derry vibe from your story but there are some really fantastic bike riding scenes in that book.

Oops! Got busy at work. To be continued...

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13 hours ago, hawkedup said:

I kept meaning to ask in previous critiques and only remembered this time because you name drop Stephen King (ph not v), but have you read the book IT? Not only do I get a Derry vibe from your story but there are some really fantastic bike riding scenes in that book.

You know, I have not. The only Stephen King books I've read are the first three in The Dark Tower, and I didn't even finish the third one. And I very rarely don't finish books. That probably has something to do with my wrong spelling of his name. I just always used to see tons of his books in antique stores even though they aren't antiques. It seemed like people had a tendency to sell random used books in their booths, and there were always a few Stephen King titles. 

On 9/20/2019 at 5:28 AM, Robinski said:

I'm getting a lot of WRS around the references that E make

Part of this isn't WRS and just me  trying out ideas and referencing things you didn't read. And I think I'm starting to lose track of what is in various versions of each chapter.

On 9/19/2019 at 11:35 PM, hawkedup said:

Um. Yeah. I REALLY like the poison ivy connection and I think taking it out would be a mistake

I like it too, but @Mandamon and @kais have a good point about the danger of that in a kids book. Kids do stupid things with poison ivy. I remember being a kid and my mom told me about another kid who got it really bad he needed to go to the hospital because he got mad at his parents and rolled in it (there was more to that story, I think). Then my cousins would always get when we played in certain areas where it was prevalent, and I never did. I thought I was allergic, because I had definitely walked through it and felt it brush my legs, and I'd never got a rash. My cousins didn't believe you could be "not allergic" to it. I rubbed poison ivy leaves on my arms. Believe it or not, I did not have any reaction to it. However, if I am not mistaken, repeated exposure can cause someone who is not allergic to develop an allergy or sensitivity to it. Had I done something like that again, I might not have been so lucky.

Anyway, my point is that I think I was a kind of smart kid, but I was stupid enough to rub poison ivy on my arms. I would feel horrible if some kid read this and decided to burn poison ivy to chase off pretend ghosts. 

Plus, the initial set up for it had been accidental, and when @Robinski said something about Chekov's Poison Ivy, I decided I wanted to do something with it. So it's not even fully my original idea. I think if it was an adult novel, what you and Robinski said about it raising the stakes by putting the character in danger would be fine. But not in a kids book. 

What I'm thinking is keeping the poison ivy as something ghost tend to avoid or can't cross, but deleting any mention of burning  or picking it.  Then E could use it to corner M in their final show down.

On 9/19/2019 at 10:42 AM, kais said:

Sassafras, in particular, would be a fun one.

I may have to research this a little more. Earlier this summer I had been researching trees native to my area, trying to figure out what the local conservation commission might let me plant near the lake, and sassafras had been on a list of native trees I found somewhere on the internet, but then after researching it, I decided it wasn't what I wanted. I think some part of it, maybe the bark or roots, was toxic to dogs. I also don't think it was something I could've walked into a garden center and bought. But anyway, I remember it having some interesting properties. It might be worth researching for this. 

Thanks for the feedback! 

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3 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:

The only Stephen King books I've read are the first three in The Dark Tower, and I didn't even finish the third one.

That surprises me. I love the Dark Tower so much, especially book 3. (If you had said book 4 I would've understood because that is a flashback book and I skip it in my re-reads because it's so much weaker than the rest.) It's one of the only series I'd put on the same level as Brandon's work.

3 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:

I like it too, but @Mandamon and @kais have a good point about the danger of that in a kids book.

Young Reader books are literally full of kids doing dangerous things that they should never ever do in real life. Running away from home. Stealing cars. Riding makeshift rafts down the Mississippi. If the narrative makes the dangers clear and illustrates what happens if someone is careless, you actually might prevent a kid doing something stupid with poison ivy in real life. But that's just my two cents. It's your book and you of course should do what you feel comfortable with.

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15 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:

Plus, the initial set up for it had been accidental, and when @Robinski said something about Chekov's Poison Ivy, I decided I wanted to do something with it. So it's not even fully my original idea. I think if it was an adult novel, what you and Robinski said about it raising the stakes by putting the character in danger would be fine. But not in a kids book.

Oh, so it's my fault now? :lol:;)  Kidding, kidding!! I have a hard time remembering I'm critiquing a kids' book, I must admit. I like the level of threat, I think maybe it's just a case of drawing it into focus a bit more near the end? I like the word 'peril' rather than danger. I can see that danger might be problematic. I like the poison ivy, but I have basically no experience of it, so you guys will know best how plausible all this is.

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As I read:

"..a spectral fluffy tail on my peripheral vision." Um, is that the dog, or is there also a ghost dog now?

A later paragraph suggests that maybe it is a ghost dog. If so, E seems awfully unconcerned about the possibility of a strange ghost dog when it first comes up.

Bottom paragraph of p2: Should be Maine Coon. Just pointing it out because spellcheck won't catch it.

p10 I think the sword has just become a dagger.

A thought as I get towards the end of the chapter: we're told that M is stronger here, but the stuff that she's throwing at the protags don't indicate that at all. The stuff that's happening here is nicely creepy, but doesn't have the same "we're in over our heads" feeling that the previous action scene did. Especially with the comment about the rolling cans that could have killed the protags, but didn't, because M's energy is apparently flagging.

D's comment about M trying to trap them does help with the above comment somewhat, I think. It's not immediately obvious that that's what's going on from the descriptions. Might be worthwhile to hang a lantern on it a little earlier in the scene, just as far as the descriptions go.

This is a rather small-picture comment, but I think in later drafts it would be worth revisiting the final line, or couple of lines, of the chapter.The image that it ends on is nice, but the actual prose doesn't carry the weight that I feel it should for the end of a chapter, especially at this point of the book.

On 9/17/2019 at 7:59 AM, Mandamon said:

Once they're in the house, the tension keeps up. However before that, I was uncertain as to how they found the house and what purpose the ghost served at the barn. 

I wasn't sure how they found the house either.

On 9/17/2019 at 7:59 AM, Mandamon said:

--there are books in an old barn in the middle of nowhere?

I was also a bit surprised by the description of the barn being full of stuff.

On 9/21/2019 at 11:52 AM, shatteredsmooth said:

What I'm thinking is keeping the poison ivy as something ghost tend to avoid or can't cross, but deleting any mention of burning  or picking it. 

Purely as a narrative device, I think the smoke works best, but I don't want to minimize the comments around the dangers of it, especially in a middle-grade book. Presumably if you have a properly designed action scene that describes how dangerous it is, you could help mitigate that somewhat, but yeah, I don't know. I don't think it's quite the same as, say, having an MG protagonist steal a car, because there's already a general societal conviction that stealing cars is bad. On the other hand, I was today years old when I learned that it's potential fatal to inhale poison ivy.

I see the reactions were pretty mixed to the poison ivy as some kind of repellent, and I have a theory as to why: We don't, in general, have a good understanding yet of how ghosts really interact with the world. They seem to fade in and out of the world as they choose and are able to manipulate or interact with bits of it; what's stopping a ghost from just going insubstantial, or just flying two feet above the ivy, or whatever it is? Why does the plant have properties that are particularly effective against the ghosts, and why can't the ghosts just avoid it when it seems like they should often be able to?

Edited by Silk
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