Oltux72

What happens between book III and book IV?

73 posts in this topic

10 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

They have soulcasters. Enough of them to dispose of feces. And Kaladin noticed that the metal is not steel. And Shallan's jewelery shows that they can make alumium.

Well, if it can be soulcast that's a different story. Come to think it, why didn't Hoid tell Jasnah about the useful properties of aluminum?

 

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Post signs in the major cities. Some Skybreakers will want to talk to Dalinar. They are Knights Radiant. There must be a faction that wants to stand with the other knights. Some must be sworn to the law codes of nations in the coalition and want to defend Roshar's human population while considering themselves bound by human law.

I don't think it'll be as cut and dry as signs, but yes,I wouldn't be surprised to see some Skybreakers wanting to stand with other Radiants. Szeth would be very helpful consolidating support there. He's a rookie, but he's famous, and Nale was very partial to him as well. Makes me wonder f that's why he brought in Szeth.

 

10 hours ago, Karger said:

Her husband was the most successful at gemhunting and it is not like Dalinar could just take those away from her. 

How much of that money can she use immediately anyway, that wasn't stored in holdings in Alethkar. Not tom mention, I'd be shocked if she wasn't forced to pay some serious fines due to Amaram.

 

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She also has whatever portion of her army who were not at Theylen field, her title, her political skill, a grievance against the Kholins, a relationship with the Ruthars...

I wonder how many of her army would be willing to stick with a group of proven traitors though? Her political skill has diminshed value currently, and Ruthar has probably dropped her like a hot potato.

 

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Mraize has Shallan(or seems to think he does) what use can he make of Ialia?

If he found a use for Shalan, he could find something for Ialai to do.

 

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Considering that he is a god I don't think that it takes him much time to tempt stupid people to the dark side.

Yeah, but for him Ialai isn't very useful I think.

 

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I am guessing they have spies in the Ardentia, with the stormwardens, and with various nobles.  They can probably get whatever Urithiru intelligence that they absolutely need.

This is true, but Ialai, however grudgingly and for however short a period of time, was hooked into the very top of Urithiru and the coalition. Info from that high up is not easy to come by.

 

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That raises another point. Even if Shallan hasn't talked, Amaram's connections to shady organizations will be investigated. Are the Sons of Honor on the run?

Great question. Depending on what they heard from Amaram, they might be either biding their time or in a state of collapse. Investigating them would take a lot of time and energy seeing as their only lead is dead though.

Maybe Jasnah will use more of her underworld connections for that?

Edited by Mage of Lirigon
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7 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

How much of that money can she use immediately anyway, that wasn't stored in holdings in Alethkar. Not tom mention, I'd be shocked if she wasn't forced to pay some serious fines due to Amaram.

She is still a highprince's wife.  Dalinar will have some serious trouble corralling her.

7 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

I wonder how many of her army would be willing to stick with a group of proven traitors though? Her political skill has diminshed value currently, and Ruthar has probably dropped her like a hot potato.

Well that army is loyal to Sadeas.  What they did could be presented as heroism with the right spin.  Ruthar is pretty stupid and the Kohlins will never trust him.

7 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

If he found a use for Shalan, he could find something for Ialai to do.

If he can trust her(which he can't).

7 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Yeah, but for him Ialai isn't very useful I think.

Getting a few hundred humans on his side could be extraordinarily useful for shock value alone.

7 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

This is true, but Ialai, however grudgingly and for however short a period of time, was hooked into the very top of Urithiru and the coalition. Info from that high up is not easy to come by.

Shallan is still hooked into the top.

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3 hours ago, Karger said:

She is still a highprince's wife.  Dalinar will have some serious trouble corralling her.

Nor would the other highprinces stand for that. At the very least it would take an official inquiry and so on.

3 hours ago, Karger said:

Well that army is loyal to Sadeas.  What they did could be presented as heroism with the right spin.  Ruthar is pretty stupid and the Kohlins will never trust him.

Either they were victims of the Thrill or not.

 

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21 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Nor would the other highprinces stand for that. At the very least it would take an official inquiry and so on.

Either they were victims of the Thrill or not.

 

The Sadeas army actively attacked their allies. The acting highprince led them. He was offered to come over, but he refused. Ialai chose Amaram to lead her princedom. She is responsible for any actions he takes in that office. The ruler of Alethkar (Jasnah) is within rights to seize all lands, assets, and titles for that. To me that is why Ialai fled Urithiru in disgrace. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

The Sadeas army actively attacked their allies. The acting highprince led them. He was offered to come over, but he refused. Ialai chose Amaram to lead her princedom. She is responsible for any actions he takes in that office. The ruler of Alethkar (Jasnah) is within rights to seize all lands, assets, and titles for that. To me that is why Ialai fled Urithiru in disgrace. 

That raises the question.  Where is she now?  There are not that many safe places that would welcome the disgraced wife of a former highprince.

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28 minutes ago, Karger said:

That raises the question.  Where is she now?  There are not that many safe places that would welcome the disgraced wife of a former highprince.

Well my personal view on the matter colors my answer, so let me preface my response that I totally accept and acknowledge others theorize that there would be ramifications. As for myself I do not think it matters. Ialai's time has come and gone. The purpose of the character for the narrative no longer needed, and the character's story itself has ended (in my opinion). So where is she now? Not Urithiru. What will she do? Try to survive during the end of the world like anyone else. To me Ialai is not needed now that Taravangian, Odium, the Fused, and Moash have come more to the fore. But again, totally get and appreciate that others think something does have to happen with Ialai. 

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6 hours ago, Karger said:

She is still a highprince's wife.  Dalinar will have some serious trouble corralling her.If he can trust her(which he can't).

Like Pathfinder said, she committed open treason. I don't think he'll have much trouble getting at least a fine from her.

 

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Well that army is loyal to Sadeas.   

The army is loyal to Sadeas money. Now that House Sadeas is attainted, how many will stick around for that when they could get work elsewhere?

 

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What they did could be presented as heroism with the right spin.

This isn't like when they abandoned Dalinar's army. There's no heroic way out of this. The most they can do is tell the truth, but since no one liked them anyways, no one will care.

 

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Ruthar is pretty stupid and the Kohlins will never trust him.

Stupid enough to stick with House Sadeas.

 

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Shallan is still hooked into the top.

I was talking about the Sons of Honour, not the Ghostbloods.

 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

That raises the question.  Where is she now?  There are not that many safe places that would welcome the disgraced wife of a former highprince.

Azir most likely. Plenty of places to go, where she'll be relatively unknown.

 

38 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Well my personal view on the matter colors my answer, so let me preface my response that I totally accept and acknowledge others theorize that there would be ramifications. As for myself I do not think it matters. Ialai's time has come and gone. The purpose of the character for the narrative no longer needed, and the character's story itself has ended (in my opinion). So where is she now? Not Urithiru. What will she do? Try to survive during the end of the world like anyone else. To me Ialai is not needed now that Taravangian, Odium, the Fused, and Moash have come more to the fore. But again, totally get and appreciate that others think something does have to happen with Ialai. 

I think Ialai is done too, but if she were to return, secret societies are the best bet for her

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35 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Like Pathfinder said, she committed open treason. I don't think he'll have much trouble getting at least a fine from her.

She did not do anything.  Her army lost control due to the influence of an Unmade.  I am not sure that even in a county with an actual legal system you could prove culpability.

37 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

The army is loyal to Sadeas money. Now that House Sadeas is attainted, how many will stick around for that when they could get work elsewhere?

This assumes that Ialia is out of money and that their military oaths which are taken to the highprince not the king will let them leave.

38 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

This isn't like when they abandoned Dalinar's army. There's no heroic way out of this. The most they can do is tell the truth, but since no one liked them anyways, no one will care.

Have you herd the tale of the brave Armaram who dared to challenge the hypocritical Dalinar who is leading the Alethi nation to disaster and was willing to sacrifice the lives of thousands of soldiers because they have sworn fealty to a political opponent?

39 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Stupid enough to stick with House Sadeas.

Maybe if Ialia can promise him something he wants or let him think he is in charge.

40 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

I was talking about the Sons of Honour, not the Ghostbloods.

I already gave my reasons as to why I doubt that The Sons of Honor will not take her.

41 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Azir most likely. Plenty of places to go, where she'll be relatively unknown.

I doubt Azir will want her around.  She is a known troublemaker who even those Alethi barbarians could not deal with.

42 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

I think Ialai is done too, but if she were to return, secret societies are the best bet for her

But will any of them take her?

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

But again, totally get and appreciate that others think something does have to happen with Ialai. 

Brandon generally does not just let characters walk out of the story.

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21 minutes ago, Karger said:

She did not do anything.  Her army lost control due to the influence of an Unmade.  I am not sure that even in a county with an actual legal system you could prove culpability.

At the end of the day, her army attacked fellow Alethi and an allied nation. She is in charge, so the buck stops with her. They might not be culpable legally, but some recompense will have to be given.

 

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This assumes that Ialia is out of money and that their military oaths which are taken to the highprince not the king will let them leave.

Even assuming she can still pay them, the stink of treachery is still very high. I don't think any of them signed slave contracts that force them to stick around, and the Almighty knows that for the nobility, alliances are shifting sand.

 

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Have you herd the tale of the brave Armaram who dared to challenge the hypocritical Dalinar who is leading the Alethi nation to disaster and was willing to sacrifice the lives of thousands of soldiers because they have sworn fealty to a political opponent?

LOL!

No one on Roshar would believe that tripe, not after Amaram publicly invaded a allied country that was already broken down by the Everstorm, especially after all the bad press House Sadeas already had, both in Alethkar and in Theylen City.

 

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Maybe if Ialia can promise him something he wants or let him think he is in charge.

Ruthar's dumb, but not that dumb. House Sadeas is sinking, he's not going to go down with them. 

 

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I already gave my reasons as to why I doubt that The Sons of Honor will not take her.

And I was giving my reasons why they could hold their noses and work with her anyway. Shallan has nothing to do with it.

 

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But will any of them take her?

Brandon generally does not just let characters walk out of the story.

Don't think there are many other ways for her to remain relevant though...

Edited by Mage of Lirigon
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26 minutes ago, Karger said:

She did not do anything.  Her army lost control due to the influence of an Unmade.  I am not sure that even in a county with an actual legal system you could prove culpability.

It is called chain of causation. If I loan you my keys to my car, and then you while driving get a speeding ticket, I am the one that has to pay the ticket and is held liable. I in good conscious, trusted you with my vehicle. A reasonable individual would only entrust their vehicle with someone who would not abuse the law. Thus if the law is broken while you use my car, I am held liable because I gave you the keys and the ability to break the law. That is the law on the books. Ialai chose Amaram to lead the princedom. He would not have been calling the shots had she not selected him. The actions he takes breaking Alethi law, she is held liable for. She in good conscious entrusted her princedom to him. She should have vetted him better. Thus if Amaram takes actions in the capacity as Sadeas, Ialai is liable. 

26 minutes ago, Karger said:

This assumes that Ialia is out of money and that their military oaths which are taken to the highprince not the king will let them leave.

As I said, given what happened, Jasnah is perfectly within rights to seize all assets. 

26 minutes ago, Karger said:

Have you herd the tale of the brave Armaram who dared to challenge the hypocritical Dalinar who is leading the Alethi nation to disaster and was willing to sacrifice the lives of thousands of soldiers because they have sworn fealty to a political opponent?

Except the other countries rulers also witnessed the entire Sadeas army rise up, and attack their own people. A Sadeas soldier literally stated in view of two rulers how Highprince Amaram would love to get his hands on them, before Navani used her painrial to knock him out. 

26 minutes ago, Karger said:

Brandon generally does not just let characters walk out of the story.

That is a false equivalency. You are entitled to your opinion that more might happen with her, but my opinion that there won't does not mean she "just walked out of the story". Her entire princedom was disgraced and she fled. She didn't do any walking. 

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15 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

At the end of the day, her army attacked fellow Alethi and an allied nation. She is in charge, so the buck stops with her. They might not be culpable legally, but some recompense will have to be given.

True to an extant but she could argue that Dalinar was the one who moved her army to Theylen city and he was in charge due to his responsibility as highprince of war so the buck could stop with him

The soldiers due sign contracts(or swear oaths) that make it illegal for them to leave.  This is why desertion is a capital crime.  Also given their reputations it is going to be hard for them to get quality work almost anywhere else.

19 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

No one on Roshar would believe that tripe, not after Amaram publicly invaded a allied country that was already broken down by the Everstorm, especially after all the bad press House Sadeas already had, both in Alethkar and in Theylen City.

But the Sadeas soldiers might believe it if the alternative is to believe that they are a sadistic group of thugs who were led by terrible leaders.

20 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Ruthar's dumb, but not that dumb. House Sadeas is sinking, he's not going to go down with them. 

His alternative is to fall in line.  I also find myself doubting that Ruthar is not that dumb.  I know two things are limitless.  My irritation and human stupidity.

22 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

And I was giving my reasons why they could hold their noses and work with her anyway. Shallan has nothing to do with it.

True but my given reasons have nothing to do with Shallan either.  They are farther back the thread.

23 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Don't think there are many other ways for her to remain relevant though...

She could develop radiant powers and become a totally wild element.  She could win several victories against the fused and regain some standing that way.  She could learn some important information about one of our POVs(the diagram's existence, or Shallan's ghostly activities).

13 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

That is a false equivalency. You are entitled to your opinion that more might happen with her, but my opinion that there won't does not mean she "just walked out of the story". Her entire princedom was disgraced and she fled. She didn't do any walking. 

My point is that Brandon usually kills people or gives them something to do.  No inbetweens.

15 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Except the other countries rulers also witnessed the entire Sadeas army rise up, and attack their own people. A Sadeas soldier literally stated in view of two rulers how Highprince Amaram would love to get his hands on them, before Navani used her painrial to knock him out. 

That is clearly Dalinar's propaganda speaking!  Ialia's story does not have to be particularly good.  It just has to be good enough that people predisposed to believe it will.

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

As I said, given what happened, Jasnah is perfectly within rights to seize all assets. 

And like I said the Alethi don't have anything resembling a fully functional legal system for disciplining people in Iaiai's position.  Amaram publicly admitted what he did to Kaladin and as a highprince no one could touch him.

20 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

It is called chain of causation

See above comments on the Alethi legal system.

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7 minutes ago, Karger said:

True to an extant but she could argue that Dalinar was the one who moved her army to Theylen city and he was in charge due to his responsibility as highprince of war so the buck could stop with him

Dalinar was not the one that was the reason the Sadeas soldiers switched sides. Chain of Causation deals with the "but for" test. Sadeas's soldiers being at the Thaylen city was not the reason why they attacked their allies. Amaram was. Who placed Amaram in that role? Ialai. Sadeas's soldiers would not have switched sides is not for Amaram. Amaram would not have been in command if not for Ialai. 

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

The soldiers due sign contracts(or swear oaths) that make it illegal for them to leave.  This is why desertion is a capital crime.  Also given their reputations it is going to be hard for them to get quality work almost anywhere else.

The soldiers spoke in a lucid manner to Navani, and the other rulers. That soldier was excited over the idea of turning them over to Amaram. Nothing in that scene portrays a soldier struggling against orders given. 

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

But the Sadeas soldiers might believe it if the alternative is to believe that they are a sadistic group of thugs who were led by terrible leaders.

The bridge crews and how they were treated by Sadeas's soldiers say to me they are for the most part a sadistic group of thugs led by terrible leaders. 

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

My point is that Brandon usually kills people or gives them something to do.  No inbetweens.

And again that is a false equivalency. You personally view Ialai as needing more. That does not mean it has to be so cut and dry. Personally I think how Ialai went out is perfectly in line with Sanderson. Plenty of other characters have gone off without dying or having to do something. Again, you are perfectly entitled to think more will happen with Ialai, but that does not mean that is the only result. 

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

That is clearly Dalinar's propaganda speaking!  Ialia's story does not have to be particularly good.  It just has to be good enough that people predisposed to believe it will.

Except for as I said, other rulers personally experienced it. No propaganda required. 

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

And like I said the Alethi don't have anything resembling a fully functional legal system for disciplining people in Iaiai's position.  Amaram publicly admitted what he did to Kaladin and as a highprince no one could touch him.

The Alethi system deals with might makes right. Ialai has no might. The Kholins have all the might. And they do have laws that are used to "rationalize" actions. If a lord falls out of favor, the king or queen can seize their lands and title, imprison them, and gift such lands and title to another. It happened all the time on our planet. Ialai is head of a princedom that for all intents and purposes had an insurrection. It was stopped, and the leaders were punished. 

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

See above comments on the Alethi legal system.

I have and responded. 

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2 minutes ago, Karger said:

True to an extant but she could argue that Dalinar was the one who moved her army to Theylen city and he was in charge due to his responsibility as highprince of war so the buck could stop with him

Each highprince is responsible for their own army; Dalinar can move them around as Highprince of War, but he's not responsible for them.

 

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The soldiers due sign contracts(or swear oaths) that make it illegal for them to leave.

They aren't slaves. At worst, they sign a contract to forces them to stay for a while, not forever, and it's not like Ialai is in a position to stop them from leaving anyway.

 

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  Also given their reputations it is going to be hard for them to get quality work almost anywhere else.

Normally true, but everywhere is in desperate need of fighting men right now.

 

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His alternative is to fall in line.

His alternative is to continue on, not really on Dalinar's side but following orders for the good of Alethkar. He doesn't like Dalinar, but he'll do that if it works out well for him. 

 

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I also find myself doubting that Ruthar is not that dumb.  I know two things are limitless.  My irritation and human stupidity.

Human stupidity is limitless, but it isn't constant. Even a moron is not going do something that's clearly bad for him, for no benefit or reason and for people he doesn't like and who doesn't like him.

 

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True but my given reasons have nothing to do with Shallan either.  They are farther back the thread.

And I rebutted those with the idea they would recruit her for her intel, to which your response was Shallan has intel too, which doesn't apply to the Sons of Honour.

 

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She could develop radiant powers and become a totally wild element.  She could win several victories against the fused and regain some standing that way.  She could learn some important information about one of our POVs(the diagram's existence, or Shallan's ghostly activities).

Only Radiant she could become is a Dustbringer, and I highly doubt she'd go out and start fighting Voidbringers. She could join the Diagram too, I guess.

 

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That is clearly Dalinar's propaganda speaking!  Ialia's story does not have to be particularly good.  It just has to be good enough that people predisposed to believe it will.

The only people that would believe whatever spin she could put on it are the people who would already believe her regardless, so it changes nothing.

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And like I said the Alethi don't have anything resembling a fully functional legal system for disciplining people in Iaiai's position.  Amaram publicly admitted what he did to Kaladin and as a highprince no one could touch him.

See above comments on the Alethi legal system.

 

It's one thing for a highprince to admit he stole from and framed a darkeyed slave. it's another for him to publicly attack not only another highprince, but an allied nation, in front of other allied nations. No way they get away with that totally unscathed.

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28 minutes ago, Karger said:

 Amaram publicly admitted what he did to Kaladin and as a highprince no one could touch him.

Also to add, regarding chain of causation, this does not matter. There was a case (the one I referenced regarding the ticket), where the driver was recorded running the red light. You clearly see it was not the owner of the car. The owner of the car made a big deal about how he was out of the country and there was no way he could have been driving the vehicle. The judge calmly asked, does the owner agree that the car in the video is his? The owner replied yes. The license plate matches the owners? Owner replies yes. The drive is the owner's employee? The owner replied yes. The employee drove the car with the owner's knowledge and permission? Owner again said yes. But again said he wasn't the one that drove the car so shouldn't be liable. The judge said exactly what I just said to you. The driver had the owner's permission to use the car. Doesn't matter whether the driver admits to doing it or not. The driver could not have committed the crime that resulted in that specific ticket, if it was not for the owner of the car allowing him to drive the car. That is what chain of causation is. Does not matter if the perpetrator claims ownership of the crime. If the crime could not have occurred, had the actions of another individual not taken place, then that other individual is held liable. 

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26 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Dalinar was not the one that was the reason the Sadeas soldiers switched sides. Chain of Causation deals with the "but for" test. Sadeas's soldiers being at the Thaylen city was not the reason why they attacked their allies. Amaram was. Who placed Amaram in that role? Ialai. Sadeas's soldiers would not have switched sides is not for Amaram. Amaram would not have been in command if not for Ialai. 

23 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Each highprince is responsible for their own army; Dalinar can move them around as Highprince of War, but he's not responsible for them.

I am speaking the way Ialia would so I don't care about this.  My only point is that she can make semi plausible explanations as to why this is Dalinar's fault and if the Kohlins have enough enemies it will take.

27 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The soldiers spoke in a lucid manner to Navani, and the other rulers. That soldier was excited over the idea of turning them over to Amaram. Nothing in that scene portrays a soldier struggling against orders given. 

24 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

They aren't slaves. At worst, they sign a contract to forces them to stay for a while, not forever, and it's not like Ialai is in a position to stop them from leaving anyway.

Keeping armies from deserting is an art that I believe the Alethi must be extremely good at by now.  Also Pathfinder my point was that the soldiers can be stopped from leaving not that their actions indicate they were under duress.

27 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Normally true, but everywhere is in desperate need of fighting men right now.

Fighting men you can't trust(especially foreign fighting men) are never desirable to anyone with sense.

32 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The bridge crews and how they were treated by Sadeas's soldiers say to me they are for the most part a sadistic group of thugs led by terrible leaders. 

And if you are one of those people would you want to admit it?

30 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

His alternative is to continue on, not really on Dalinar's side but following orders for the good of Alethkar. He doesn't like Dalinar, but he'll do that if it works out well for him. 

Jasnah(I believe correctly) pegged him as having far more ambition then good sense.  He does not seem like the type who would easily fall in line.

34 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Again, you are perfectly entitled to think more will happen with Ialai, but that does not mean that is the only result. 

I am stating my opinion and doing my best to explain it.  Pointing out that I am doing so does not make it invalid anymore then me saying"I think Brandon generally does this" makes it a certainty.

33 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Human stupidity is limitless, but it isn't constant. Even a moron is not going do something that's clearly bad for him, for no benefit or reason and for people he doesn't like and who doesn't like him.

What intelligent moves has Ruthar made, ever?

37 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Except for as I said, other rulers personally experienced it. No propaganda required. 

Again.  I am speaking as Ialia.  Her statements are likely for her amry's consumption not yours or any other ruler. (Try reading some propaganda from North Korea sometime it will seem equally ludicrous to you).

36 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Only Radiant she could become is a Dustbringer, and I highly doubt she'd go out and start fighting Voidbringers. She could join the Diagram too, I guess.

I can dream OK.  Also since we have no POVs from her that I can remember we have an incomplete what type of person she realy is.

41 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The Alethi system deals with might makes right. Ialai has no might. The Kholins have all the might. And they do have laws that are used to "rationalize" actions. If a lord falls out of favor, the king or queen can seize their lands and title, imprison them, and gift such lands and title to another

Doing so tends to put the powerful nobles out of sorts.  Jasnah may decide doing so is dangerous.

42 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

The only people that would believe whatever spin she could put on it are the people who would already believe her regardless, so it changes nothing.

This may be enough to keep control of her army and possibly secure another highprince's support.

43 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

It's one thing for a highprince to admit he stole from and framed a darkeyed slave. it's another for him to publicly attack not only another highprince, but an allied nation, in front of other allied nations. No way they get away with that totally unscathed.

Not unscathed but how much damage they can weather is an interesting question.

 

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9 minutes ago, Karger said:

I am speaking the way Ialia would so I don't care about this.  My only point is that she can make semi plausible explanations as to why this is Dalinar's fault and if the Kohlins have enough enemies it will take.

Except, in my opinion she has no resources to inspire confidence in allies, and given the sheer number of witnesses, anything she says other than the truth will readily be apparent as lies. As Mage mentioned, anyone who would actually believe her to work with her, wouldn't care to begin with. They would be working with her because they think they could gain an advantage from doing so. Not because they actually believed in her "cause". And I do not believe she has any resources to offer to be of advantage to anyone. 

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

 Also Pathfinder my point was that the soldiers can be stopped from leaving not that their actions indicate they were under duress.

The sadeas princedom's army was primarily kept in Thaylenah for repairing. What happened at Thalenah is bigger than the Tower. Dalinar had a good chunk of his troops patroling and keeping the peace when the Tower happened, so although his army was devastated, he still had troops. Sadeas's princedom was doing no such thing. So I disagree that there is this great army still hanging around under the sadeas banner. 

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

And if you are one of those people would you want to admit it?

Considering they were the ones that did it.

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

I am stating my opinion and doing my best to explain it.  Pointing out that I am doing so does not make it invalid anymore then me saying"I think Brandon generally does this" makes it a certainty.

To clarify:

Opinion: I think more will come of Ialai. I think she will do this or that

vs

Brandon generally writes a certain way, so Ialai would have something happen.

 

One takes the narrative, the other implies that the author acts in a certain way, and in order for the author to act in a certain way to be true, then a certain narrative must occur. To clarify, there are people who theorize certain things will happen with Adolin. That is great and well. But there are also people who say the story would be lacking if those things they theorize didn't happen. That implies that disagreement with those theories, or other theories are lacking when they are just as possible. So feel free to have your opinion based on the book, but in my opinion, Ialai leaving the narrative where she did at the end of oathbringer does not equate with her just walking out of the narrative. What happened to her was plenty in my mind. 

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

Again.  I am speaking as Ialia.  Her statements are likely for her amry's consumption not yours or any other ruler. (Try reading some propaganda from North Korea sometime it will seem equally ludicrous to you).

An army that is either dead, fled with Odium, or captured after having just attacked their own allies. North Korea at the moment is still quite solvent and the leader still has an iron grip over his country unfortunately. That is not Ialai. 

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

Doing so tends to put the powerful nobles out of sorts.  Jasnah may decide doing so is dangerous.

It was already discussed over the course of the novels. Elhokar couldn't touch Sadeas because of the weight he carried. He had allies, the resources, and the army to back it up. Ialai has lost all of that. The other nobles would be committing "suicide" allying with her against Jasnah and they know it. That's why they all were so surprised/scared when Jasnah was named queen. 

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

This may be enough to keep control of her army and possibly secure another highprince's support.

What it comes down to is we disagree on the resources Ialai has access to. I don't believe she has the means to attract support. I wish you luck with your theory!

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15 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The sadeas princedom's army was primarily kept in Thaylenah for repairing. What happened at Thalenah is bigger than the Tower. Dalinar had a good chunk of his troops patroling and keeping the peace when the Tower happened, so although his army was devastated, he still had troops. Sadeas's princedom was doing no such thing. So I disagree that there is this great army still hanging around under the sadeas banner. 

Mobility through Oathgates is limited.  Additionally they wanted to keep control of Narak, the war camps, Urithiru, and they have even more soldiers in Jah Kavad.  I believe that there are going to be a good couple thousand troops Ialia can call on somewhere.

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Considering they were the ones that did it.

Admitting that you are in the wrong is extraordinarily difficult and requires more self awareness then I think Sadeas's troops have

18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Ialai leaving the narrative where she did at the end of oathbringer does not equate with her just walking out of the narrative. What happened to her was plenty in my mind. 

And that is completely fine.

19 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

An army that is either dead, fled with Odium, or captured after having just attacked their own allies. North Korea at the moment is still quite solvent and the leader still has an iron grip over his country unfortunately. That is not Ialai. 

We shall see.  Also many people in North Korrea are starving.

20 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

What it comes down to is we disagree on the resources Ialai has access to. I don't believe she has the means to attract support. I wish you luck with your theory!

The same to you.

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16 hours ago, Karger said:

Mobility through Oathgates is limited.  Additionally they wanted to keep control of Narak, the war camps, Urithiru, and they have even more soldiers in Jah Kavad.  I believe that there are going to be a good couple thousand troops Ialia can call on somewhere.

Mobility? Could you elaborate? Because the oathgate is large enough to transport Dalinar's entire army, as well as the other armies that accompanied him to the shattered plains. So I do not see how that would limit the number of Sadeas soldiers in Thaylenah. Sadeas pulled up roots and left the Shattered plains. Only one or two highprinces remained. Dalinar was trying to keep a military force at Narak which composed his own forces. Not Sadeas's men. Sadeas soldiers were sent to Thaylenah to keep them out of Urthiru and prevent them from getting into fights with the Kholin soldiers. If a large portion of the force was still at Urthiru, that would defeat the purpose of sending them to Thaylenah. The point was to get the Sadeas soldiers out from under foot, prevent fighting between soldiers of different houses, and repair Thaylenah restoring good will with their allies. Sadeas no longer had a presence on the shattered plains, so that is out. Alethkar is an occupied country, so that is out. And they weren't at Urithiru because that would defeat the whole point in sending them to Thaylenah. So for myself, Ialai's entire main force was at Theylenah, and were either killed, fled with Odium's forces, or were apprehended after the battle. So to me, the Sadeas princedom is broken. Which is why Ialai fled Urithiru in disgrace. To me, based on how the Alethi structure works of might (military) makes right, Ialai wouldn't have had to go anywhere if she actually had a large enough force backing her for her to be a threat. Dalinar held back with Sadeas repeatedly because he knew if he and Sadeas went to war, it would tear the kingdom apart because they each had the largest armies. When Dalinar lost a large portion of his soldiers at the Tower, again he had to eat crow, because he did not have the military might to back him, and to me he would have had far more soldiers at that point, than Ialai does, because he did not field his entire army at the tower. It is commented in the book how a third to a half of his troops are used to police the warcamps, patrol the outer reaches of the shattered plains for bandits, and also staff Elhokar's personal guard. Add to that, he bought the bridgemen from Sadeas, and he was still straining from lack of soldiers. Ialai does not have any of this. So to me, her army is broken, her land is lost, and her soldiers are traitors to the crown and the coalition. That seems to me to be a metaphorical death. To me, not every villain has to physically die for their story to end.

 

edit: could you quote where they have a presence in Jah Keved? Amaram kept complaining about how his troops were not allowed there. How that was where the battle would take place, and he and his men deserve to be part of the glory. Dalinar said it was important for them to do good work in Thaylenah. Amaram accused Dalinar of pushing off his best general and men out of fear like Sadeas did. So I do not recall it being stated there was a Sadeas soldier presence in Jah Keved as of the time of the battle of Theylenah 

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Admitting that you are in the wrong is extraordinarily difficult and requires more self awareness then I think Sadeas's troops have

And for myself they do not have to admit anything. They are either dead, joined up with Odium, or in prison for attacking and killing their own allies. 

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And that is completely fine.

Thank you

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We shall see.  Also many people in North Korrea are starving.

But that does not change that the ruler still has a very powerful military complex still in control. If his army fell apart to the extent of Ialai (in my opinion), then the people could rise up in rebellion with aid from South Korea. But as long as the north korean military has an iron hold over every aspect of its populace's life, things are going to remain the same. 

Quote

The same to you.

Thanks!

Edited by Pathfinder
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56 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Mobility? Could you elaborate? Because the oathgate is large enough to transport Dalinar's entire army, as well as the other armies that accompanied him to the shattered plains. So I do not see how that would limit the number of Sadeas soldiers in Thaylenah

It takes time to assemble them, stormlight to transport them, and a Radiant to move them.  They are not going to want to move any troops through the Oathgates more then absolutely necessary.

57 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Dalinar was trying to keep a military force at Narak which composed his own forces. Not Sadeas's men. Sadeas soldiers were sent to Thaylenah to keep them out of Urthiru and prevent them from getting into fights with the Kholin soldiers. If a large portion of the force was still at Urthiru, that would defeat the purpose of sending them to Thaylenah

Not realy.  Reducing the number of problem causers would work just as well and I think Ialia would have resisted not having some people in reserve.

58 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Alethkar is an occupied country,

Mostly.  Some of the Alethi (and I believe Ruthar's son Reilis) are back there with troops trying to hang onto what is left of the kingdom.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

So to me, the Sadeas princedom is broken. Which is why Ialai fled Urithiru in disgrace. To me, based on how the Alethi structure works of might (military) makes right, Ialai wouldn't have had to go anywhere if she actually had a large enough force backing her for her to be a threat

She could still be a problem without being enough of a threat to decide that sticking around is a good idea.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

And for myself they do not have to admit anything. They are either dead, joined up with Odium, or in prison for attacking and killing their own allies. 

I disagree.  Ialia would insist on retaining at minimum a skeleton army back in her section of the tower.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

But that does not change that the ruler still has a very powerful military complex still in control. If his army fell apart to the extent of Ialai (in my opinion), then the people could rise up in rebellion with aid from South Korea. But as long as the north korean military has an iron hold over every aspect of its populace's life, things are going to remain the same. 

You cannot retain control of a nation through force and threat of force.  People are going to believe what they are told if they have been hit over the head with enough propaganda for enough of their lives.

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31 minutes ago, Karger said:

It takes time to assemble them, stormlight to transport them, and a Radiant to move them.  They are not going to want to move any troops through the Oathgates more then absolutely necessary.

Jasnah and Dalinar from what they said seemed to have thought moving Sadeas's forces to prevent problems at Urithiru as absolutely necessary. 

Quote

Not realy.  Reducing the number of problem causers would work just as well and I think Ialia would have resisted not having some people in reserve.

Quote below showing Amaram's army is camped at Thaylenah, so they are present for extended occupation.

 

Oathbringer page 1035

"We shored up positions where the wall was weakened" Amaram continued gesturing. "It's not high by Kholinar standards, but is an impressive fortification nonetheless. We cleared out the buildings right inside to provide a staging and resource dumps, and my army is camped there."

 

Quote below showing that it is Kholin troops in Jah Keved, while Amaram's are in Theylenah. 

 

Oathbringer page 1036

"The city looks far better" Dalinar said "Your men did well"

"Then maybe our penance can be over" Amaram said. he said it straight, though angerspren - a pool of boiling blood - spread from beneath his right foot. 

"Your work here was important, soldier. You didn't only rebuild a city; you built the trust of the Thaylen people."

"Of course." Amaram added, more softly "And I do see the tactical importance of knowing the enemy fortifications."

You fool. "The Thaylens are not our enemies."

"I misspoke" Amaram said. "Yet I cannot ignore that the Kholin troops have been deployed to the border between out kingdom and Jah Keved. Your men get to liberate our homeland, while mine spend their day digging in rocks."

Quote

Mostly.  Some of the Alethi (and I believe Ruthar's son Reilis) are back there with troops trying to hang onto what is left of the kingdom.

Oathbringer page 584

By spanreed reports, the Voidbringers were slowly moving northward, and had captured much of Alethkar. Relis Ruthar had tried to gather the remaining Alethi forces in the country, but had been pushed back towards Herdaz, suffering at the hands of the fused

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She could still be a problem without being enough of a threat to decide that sticking around is a good idea.

I disagree, but I respect your opinion, and wish you luck with your theory!

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I disagree.  Ialia would insist on retaining at minimum a skeleton army back in her section of the tower.

From what I have read, yes she has a skeleton group of people (carpenters, personal guard, camp followers, etc), but the army of soldiers were with Amaram. I keep coming back to the Tower. How empty the Kholin warcamp was, and devastated by the losses, and yet Dalinar still had the troops he left at the warcamp, and patrolled the area for bandits to draw upon, not to mention the influx of bridgemen. Ialai does not have that. So in my opinion, she has no army to speak of. But to each their own. 

Quote

You cannot retain control of a nation through force and threat of force.  People are going to believe what they are told if they have been hit over the head with enough propaganda for enough of their lives.

North Korea seems to show you can. People who travel to there, and get locked up, and tortured, can't expect help from their country of origin for fear of starting a war. People are terrified of rising up, because the military will come in, arrest you, and you will never be seen again. People try to flee through China, and South Korea to the point that there is a constant military presence at the boarders, patrolling to apprehend anyone escaping. Without his military, the ruler of North Korea wouldn't last a day. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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I expect dozens of new Radiants, though a lot of them under the 3rd Ideal, and over a hundred squires, mostly the Windrunner ones, of course. In fact, we don't currently know when the other Orders can get squires - it very well could be only after their 4th Ideal, as is the case with the Skybreakers. IMHO, the 1 year skip is mainly for them to become somewhat skilled with their surges without it feeling too cheap. Jasnah will have trained Shallan and maybe others in Soulcasting. 

The new Radiants will be mainly from the Orders that we know have been already trying to bond previously  - the Lightweavers, the Edgedancers, the Truthwatchers, and now also the Windrunners, though I expect that most of those last will come from around Kaladin and Dalinar. OTOH, I also really fancy Vivenna/Azure as one of them, with Captain Notum as her spren. There is a WoB that we'll see more Dustbringers in book 4 and it is a popular theory that the escape artist Herdazian general is one. 

The Skybreakers and particularly Nale would have to spend the year in some kind of limbo so as not to deliver the final blow to Dalinar's faction and kill Our Heroes at the behest of the Fused during that period. Not sure how Sanderson will play it - "reconciling their oaths" would take that long? Sounds contrived to me, but YMMV. But I also don't see their Order splitting off-screen and book 5 is the Skybreaker book, so they'd have to be kept in the holding pattern somehow.

The other Nahel spren will hold back, I feel, and will need to be convinced by one of the main characters formally approaching them in Shadesmar during book 4 or 5. Maya's revival should play into it.

I expect massive religious turmoil in all Vorin countries, reformation movements, schisms and so on. Some might have begun to see Dalinar as a religious figure, others as the servant of the Enemy sent to deceive and test them. 

The camps at the Shattered Plains will be flooded with refugees from southern Alethkar and Jasnah will come up with means to sustain and organize them. Hopefully, also to reform the Alethi society, at least somewhat.

There will be some important work done in fabrial science. 

Fight for Cultivation's Perpendicularly will happen in Rock's novella during that year? I always pegged it for book 4, but this will work too.

Ialai might have been able to escape Urithiru with her gem stores, if she moved quickly, while all the Kholins were dealing with the fallout of Thaylenah. It is true that she lost her army and her lands, but she still has her intelligence and assassin network, which could give her some clout if she kept her money. IMHO, she'd try to turn Highprinces Vamah and Thanadal as well as the ardentia and devout Vorins against the Kholins. 

Shallan will get a little niece or nephew via Balat and his betrothed, whom he either married on the road or after arriving at Urithiru.

Edited by Isilel
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Perfect Gems are more than just certain proportions. There is something special about them

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I think that Shallan and Adolin will have had their first kid already. 

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