Why isn't the Stormfather red?

[Necessary Eagle]

Didn't Tanavast coopt the already extant Stormfather 1.0 as the top Honor spren, transforming him into Stormdaddy 2.0? That sounds like Brandon's definition of corrupted Investiture to me.

(Also it's kind of hilarious that, with all the theorizing about the Unmade being preexisting spren that got Odium'd, the only Shards that we know for sure found powerful Adonalsium spren and remade them in their own image are Honor and Culti).

[Toaster Retribution]

I think Honor and the Stormfather already had a connection before that. All of Adonalsiums investiture was keyed to the Shards after the Shattering, so it wouldnt be unreasonable to assume that a lot of Stormdads investiture was keyed to Honor. 

[Karger]

29 minutes ago, Necessary Eagle said:

That sounds like Brandon's definition of corrupted Investiture to me

I am suspicious of the WoB.

16 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I think Honor and the Stormfather already had a connection before that. All of Adonalsiums investiture was keyed to the Shards after the Shattering, so it wouldnt be unreasonable to assume that a lot of Stormdads investiture was keyed to Honor. 

Agreed.

[Necessary Eagle]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

I am suspicious of the WoB.

Agreed.

What do you mean? I didn't link to a specific WoB yet (I can't copy links on my phone)

[Karger]

4 minutes ago, Necessary Eagle said:

What do you mean? I didn't link to a specific WoB yet (I can't copy links on my phone)

The one that says red = corrupted investiture.

[Necessary Eagle]

It's a real WoB. Again, can't link on my phone, but it's from November 2017, look up "red" and "investiture" .

[Steel Inquisitive]

Quote

FirstSelector

Does red in cosmere signify one Shard co-opting or corrupting another Shard's magic?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

@Karger not sure what wiggle room you see in there?

[bxcnch]

We only know that red is a result of a shard corrupting another shard's magic. The Stormfather might pre-date Honor, but he didn't belong to another shard. Besides, IIRC, there are WoBssuggesting that the Shard-Color-association is not really as important as we think. For example, Scadrians aren't red either, despite being a Ruin-Preservation-mix. 

[Steel Inquisitive]

5 hours ago, bxcnch said:

We only know that red is a result of a shard corrupting another shard's magic. The Stormfather might pre-date Honor, but he didn't belong to another shard. Besides, IIRC, there are WoBssuggesting that the Shard-Color-association is not really as important as we think. For example, Scadrians aren't red either, despite being a Ruin-Preservation-mix. 

Ruin and Preservation were working together when they made the Scadrians. Corrupting/co-opting investiture is when one investiture changes another investiture's nature or function. It's not just a mixing of different investitures.

[Karger]

On 9/6/2019 at 10:04 PM, Steel Inquisitive said:

not sure what wiggle room you see in there?

I thought that brandon might be saying that red signifies just Odium taking over.

[Elwynn]

On 9/7/2019 at 9:13 PM, Karger said:

I thought that brandon might be saying that red signifies just Odium taking over.

Maybe this will help, Karger.

SPOILERS FOR MISTBORN ERA 2 (just assume era 1 as well) AKA WAX AND WAYNE

Spoiler

We know from several wobs red=corrupting another shard's investiture.

Quote

Questioner

When Wax dies, he sees a red cloud haze. What is that?

Brandon Sanderson

That is the effects of another Shard trying to do something.

Questioner

Who is that?

Brandon Sanderson

Mmm, that part's a RAFO.

Oathbringer San Diego signing (Nov. 14, 2017)

 

The individual who visited Suit in jail is very likely an agent of Autonomy. Tying that to Odium is huge stretch. So it's not just Odium corruption things.

 

[Karger]

Spoiler

1 hour ago, Elwynn said:

The individual who visited Suit in jail is very likely an agent of Autonomy. Tying that to Odium is huge stretch. So it's not just Odium corruption things.

Spoiler

We do not yet know what happens to Odium it is possible that Autonomy found a bit of him floating around somewhere and "threw it" at Scadrial

My point is that we realy don't know much about how corruption works or what it means.

[Elwynn]

Just now, Karger said:

  Reveal hidden contents

  Reveal hidden contents

We do not yet know what happens to Odium it is possible that Autonomy found a bit of him floating around somewhere and "threw it" at Scadrial

My point is that we realy don't know much about how corruption works or what it means.

That wasn't your point though...and now you're just moving goalposts. No, we don't know the technical aspects of how a shard tweaks another's for their benefit. But we do have literal wobs stating that the color red is representative of this happening.

[Karger]

13 minutes ago, Elwynn said:

That wasn't your point though...and now you're just moving goalposts. No, we don't know the technical aspects of how a shard tweaks another's for their benefit. But we do have literal wobs stating that the color red is representative of this happening.

Red means that a shard is corrupting another shard.  I choose to believe that the a shard in question is actually Odium.  It is altogether possible that the red haze in the Mistborn case is a shard trying to do something else entirely that also manifests as red.

[twenty second of the sun]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

Red means that a shard is corrupting another shard.  I choose to believe that the a shard in question is actually Odium.  It is altogether possible that the red haze in the Mistborn case is a shard trying to do something else entirely that also manifests as red.

Sorry ,but that belief doesn't make sense in regards to the evidence at hand.

[Karger]

6 minutes ago, twenty second of the sun said:

Sorry ,but that belief doesn't make sense in regards to the evidence at hand.

What makes you say that?  Have we seen corruption that is not Odium derived?

[Inky]

Spoiler

Trell 

(Mistborn Spoilers)

[Quantus]

10 hours ago, Karger said:

What makes you say that?  Have we seen corruption that is not Odium derived?

Based on what we know of the timeline of when these concurrent stories happens, Trell cannot be Odium because Odium is trapped on Roshar during the time of Scadrial Era2.  Era 2 happens aroudn the time gap between SA 1-5 and SA 6-10, so unless the first half of SA ends with Odium Escaping Roshar and destroying it in the process, Trell's identity is pretty much limited to Automony, Endowment (long-shot), or a reconstituted chunk of Devotion, Dominion, or Ambition.  

[Pathfinder]

Just a side note, red is not the only color that can indicate "corruption" of investiture. So can black.

 

Brandon Sanderson

Anyway, Nightblood is named for the smoke he leaks, and he originally had a different name when he was created. Vasher himself dubbed the sword Nightblood after he had used it to kill the woman he loved. The blackness that leaks out is actually corrupted and consumed Breaths, the ones that Nightblood leeches off anyone who draws him.

Warbreaker Annotations (April 25, 2011)

[Necessary Eagle]

54 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Just a side note, red is not the only color that can indicate "corruption" of investiture. So can black.

 

Brandon Sanderson

Anyway, Nightblood is named for the smoke he leaks, and he originally had a different name when he was created. Vasher himself dubbed the sword Nightblood after he had used it to kill the woman he loved. The blackness that leaks out is actually corrupted and consumed Breaths, the ones that Nightblood leeches off anyone who draws him.

Warbreaker Annotations (April 25, 2011)

Nightblood isn't a shard, though. I think "corrupted" here probably means something a bit different from when Odium or Autonomy does it-- but who knows, I've certaInly been wrong before.

[Elwynn]

15 hours ago, Karger said:

Red means that a shard is corrupting another shard.  I choose to believe that the a shard in question is actually Odium.  It is altogether possible that the red haze in the Mistborn case is a shard trying to do something else entirely that also manifests as red.

Yeah, sorry but it's just willful ignorance to say, "That being representing the red mist at the end of BoM? Totally could be Odium."

 

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

Based on what we know of the timeline of when these concurrent stories happens, Trell cannot be Odium because Odium is trapped on Roshar during the time of Scadrial Era2.  Era 2 happens aroudn the time gap between SA 1-5 and SA 6-10, so unless the first half of SA ends with Odium Escaping Roshar and destroying it in the process, Trell's identity is pretty much limited to Automony, Endowment (long-shot), or a reconstituted chunk of Devotion, Dominion, or Ambition.  

I actually had this argument included in my reply but like you say, it's impossible to know if Odium gets free after book 5. I don't believe it for a second but I could see the argument being made that he's the big bad of the cosmere. Agreed though.

 

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Just a side note, red is not the only color that can indicate "corruption" of investiture. So can black.

 

Brandon Sanderson

Anyway, Nightblood is named for the smoke he leaks, and he originally had a different name when he was created. Vasher himself dubbed the sword Nightblood after he had used it to kill the woman he loved. The blackness that leaks out is actually corrupted and consumed Breaths, the ones that Nightblood leeches off anyone who draws him.

Warbreaker Annotations (April 25, 2011)

@Necessary Eagle pointed out that it's wob'd to be Shard specific, but you're right that this is a form of corrupted investiture that I didn't remember.

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

Based on what we know of the timeline of when these concurrent stories happens, Trell cannot be Odium because Odium is trapped on Roshar during the time of Scadrial Era2.  Era 2 happens aroudn the time gap between SA 1-5 and SA 6-10, so unless the first half of SA ends with Odium Escaping Roshar and destroying it in the process, Trell's identity is pretty much limited to Automony, Endowment (long-shot), or a reconstituted chunk of Devotion, Dominion, or Ambition.  

7 minutes ago, Elwynn said:

Yeah, sorry but it's just willful ignorance to say, "That being representing the red mist at the end of BoM? Totally could be Odium."

This is speculation.  Perhaps a piece of Odium is torn off and gets away.  Perhaps Odium is weakened to the point where he can't challenge Cultivation and goes after someone else when he escapes.  Perhaps Odium does escape but only manages it by promising to do no injury to anyone on Roshar.  We realy have no idea.  Also it could totally be Odium or at least Odium derived. 

3 hours ago, Inky said:

(Mistborn Spoilers)

Spoiler

We have no idea what or who Trell is

 

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

The blackness that leaks out is actually corrupted and consumed Breaths, the ones that Nightblood leeches off anyone who draws him.

Am I wrong or are we agreeing on something that is not fairly obvious?

 

[Pathfinder]

49 minutes ago, Necessary Eagle said:

Nightblood isn't a shard, though. I think "corrupted" here probably means something a bit different from when Odium or Autonomy does it-- but who knows, I've certaInly been wrong before.

 

18 minutes ago, Elwynn said:

 

@Necessary Eagle pointed out that it's wob'd to be Shard specific, but you're right that this is a form of corrupted investiture that I didn't remember.

 

10 minutes ago, Karger said:

 

Am I wrong or are we agreeing on something that is not fairly obvious?

 

So responding to all three (Necessary Eagle, Elwynn, and Karger) with WoB below:

 

Blightsong

How does corrupted investiture work, like Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, Nightblood. Again, this is a definition of what somebody feels is a corruption. For instance, there are spren that people would feel are corrupted. But that's corruption where the mixing of different Shards has changed things, and I think a lot of times when people say corruption, what they're meaning is the mixing of Shards' powers.

Blightsong

So is there a mixing of Shards' powers happening with Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

*smirks* RAFO. That's the natural question, I'm glad you asked it.

Blightsong

Ok, uhhh, so something similar is happening with Gavilar's sphere, right?

Brandon Sanderson

*contemplative silence* RAFO.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

[Karger]

8 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So responding to all three (Necessary Eagle, Elwynn, and Karger) with WoB below:

I am going to say that this demonstrates the validity of my opinion.  Since we have no(limited) intelligence we can speculate pretty heavily.

[Elwynn]

24 minutes ago, Karger said:

This is speculation.  Perhaps a piece of Odium is torn off and gets away.  Perhaps Odium is weakened to the point where he can't challenge Cultivation and goes after someone else when he escapes.  Perhaps Odium does escape but only manages it by promising to do no injury to anyone on Roshar.  We realy have no idea.  Also it could totally be Odium or at least Odium derived. 

What you're responding to is not speculation. What you're doing is speculation. Rampant speculation. 

You're skeptical of a literal, straight answered wob because of...this? You want to dismiss wobs because it's ever so slightly possible(and in no way logically consistent) that a torn off piece of Odium's power, severely weakened, can co-opt another full Shard's investiture and then attack and pressure Harmony (2 shards!) all within 15 years? This is...out there.

 

13 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

 

 

So responding to all three (Necessary Eagle, Elwynn, and Karger) with WoB below:

Spoiler

Blightsong

How does corrupted investiture work, like Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, Nightblood. Again, this is a definition of what somebody feels is a corruption. For instance, there are spren that people would feel are corrupted. But that's corruption where the mixing of different Shards has changed things, and I think a lot of times when people say corruption, what they're meaning is the mixing of Shards' powers.

Blightsong

So is there a mixing of Shards' powers happening with Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

*smirks* RAFO. That's the natural question, I'm glad you asked it.

Blightsong

Ok, uhhh, so something similar is happening with Gavilar's sphere, right?

Brandon Sanderson

*contemplative silence* RAFO.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

I'm really not sure what this is supposed to respond to. This is about Ruin's investiture being involved in Nightblood's creation...I agreed that it's obviously a form of corrupted investiture when Nightblood consumes (does his thiing)...not sure what else this wob is supposed to 'answer' to the three of us. Nightblood's creation is almost wholly unknown so saying Ruin or Endowment co-opted/corrupted another's investiture is unsupported at least. Or did you mean something else?

 

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Elwynn