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Rosharan Forging


Kramerfarve

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This post should probably be moved to the general Cosmere discussion if we're directly discussing two magic systems.

The main problem is that forging working in the spiritual realm. Lightweaving (thus far (<- important disclaimer)) is purely physical, and progression is merely using investiture to open a conduit to the spiritual through the cognitive. I don't think there's any obvious way to reverse progression and implant something into the spiritual realm. Now, I do think it's possible that the idealistic drawing are accessing the spiritual realm, and drawing someone's spirit, as the spiritual realm has been described by both Brandon and the Platonic ideas he draws from as the realm where ideals exist. But I would not say that lets lightweaving change anything. It's merely observation.

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8 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

The main problem is that forging working in the spiritual realm. Lightweaving (thus far (<- important disclaimer)) is purely physical

But it’s not 

Questioner

How are Shallan's Lightweavings related to the screams that Szeth hears?

Brandon Sanderson

In that they are slightly attached to the Spiritual Realm. 

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I’d say the main problem is twofold. One Shallan doesn’t do it on purpose (yet) it just happens. Two progression raises them to their spiritual ideal not what Shallan sees as their spiritual ideal. 

Overall I think it has potential but we probably won’t see it for a long time and we wouldn’t get as extreme as effects as actual Forgery.

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I think forcing a chance on someone is beyond what Progression can do. Cosmere healing works on the principle of Spiritual Ideal + Personal Perception. Someone else's perception shouldn't have a significant impact on that.

In addition, Forging someone else is insanely difficult, such that Shai didn't even think she could do it in the 100 days provided. And even then, it was Forging Ashravan to someone extremely close to who he actually was. Changing that in a significant way would have been harder.

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51 minutes ago, Karger said:

I agree with @RShara.  What you are proposing is transforming someone at a fundamental level contrary to their will.  I person has to on a fundamental level want to change before progression can realy help them.

But then what if they do? What if they want their body to change that way, based on the Spiritual Filtered Through the Cognitive of themselves? Like an identity (not Identity) thing. If someone identifies as male, and they want to be male, could it change them to that with proper planning and agreement?

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7 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

But then what if they do? What if they want their body to change that way, based on the Spiritual Filtered Through the Cognitive of themselves? Like an identity (not Identity) thing. If someone identifies as male, and they want to be male, could it change them to that with proper planning and agreement?

Healing doesn't change you based on what you want but on what you are. Or what you believe you are, down to the last molecule of your being.  If they truly see themselves as of a different gender, then yes, they could heal into that gender. But someone else healing them, thinking they are male, wouldn't change them into a male.

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7 minutes ago, RShara said:

Healing doesn't change you based on what you want but on what you are. Or what you believe you are, down to the last molecule of your being.  If they truly see themselves as of a different gender, then yes, they could heal into that gender. But someone else healing them, thinking they are male, wouldn't change them into a male.

Exactly

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My idea is that Shallan's portraits of others are somewhat equivalent to Jasnah's traditional soul-casting. Both drawing on the surge of Transformation, but one is Physical while the other is Spiritual. For that theory to be correct, I think Shallan would need to be using stormlight at some point in her process. So, Progression wouldn't really be needed because Transformation is the useful Surge.

 

Here is a relevant WOB from a thread I started a couple months ago. 

WoB below

Questioner

My first question is about Shallan and whether what she does with her drawings and the deserters in Words of Radiance, kind of changing them, is at all similar to what Shai does in The Emperor's Soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Umm, that's a good question. There are similarities, but only so much that The Emperor's Soul is cosmere and is relying on the same foundation of magic. But good question. Are you getting at me saying you've seen somebody do it before?

Questioner

I talked to Alice.

Brandon Sanderson

So you have seen what she does before, but that is not what I was pointing at. It's someth-- No one is going to expect it.

Footnote: This is a follow-up to this exchange.
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Edited by Q10fanatic
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On 9/3/2019 at 1:14 PM, Karger said:

I agree with @RShara.  What you are proposing is transforming someone at a fundamental level contrary to their will.  I person has to on a fundamental level want to change before progression can realy help them.

On the other hand, Soulcasting should theoretically be 100% capable of this. It would simply require a far, FAR more detailed mental construct to encapsulate all the tiny changes it would take (similar to the pages and pages of diagrams that go into that one perfect Seal). 

Personally I think that is more or less what Shallan is doing with those Drawings that have been able to Nudge a person's self-image.  That being said, Im not sure if it's a Soulcasting effect that could override a person's self-Image, or if it's something else (a resonance) that operates more on the level of Emotional Allomancy that can influence thoughts and emotions but in a voluntary way (WOB compared Soothers/Rioters to the way music can influence but not dictate your emotions)

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On 9/4/2019 at 5:28 PM, HSuperLee said:

I'm standing by my theory that Shallan isn't transforming them, but merely showing them a picture of their spiritual self, which is to say their idealized form.

Im not opposed to that, either, and I definitely think there is an element of Choice involved; Shallan doesnt just change them on her own, she show's them something that lets them Change themselves.  

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On 9/3/2019 at 8:17 PM, RShara said:

Healing doesn't change you based on what you want but on what you are. Or what you believe you are, down to the last molecule of your being.  If they truly see themselves as of a different gender, then yes, they could heal into that gender. But someone else healing them, thinking they are male, wouldn't change them into a male.

That begs the question what would happen if you healed somebody high on magic mushrooms or LSD.

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46 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That begs the question what would happen if you healed somebody high on magic mushrooms or LSD.

The Investiture would purge the impurities and toxins out of the body leaving the person sober and with a good perception of what they should be.  

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