Stormlight Book 4 - Readings

[+Child of Hodor]

@Karger I think you are onto something with Gavilar. I suspect he was the one who had his daughter committed as a child more so than Navani. Whatever her symptoms were really caused by he saw her as a "hysterical female" and locked her away.  I don't have a strong text basis for thinking that, but it seems like something he would do. 

He also had no time for Navani, little interest in her as a life partner at least for the majority of their marriage. Most of his life he had no interest in the "female" art of scholarship and that was his wife's whole passion. Dalinar has little interest either, but he indulges her and tries to pay attention. He see her value even if the details of her work bores him. 

We've been in both Navani and Jasnah's head when thinking about or interacting with Gavilar. There is no fear or sign of trauma from violence, but there is a distance and a resentment.  

I do think we should, as we do with Dalinar, separate Gavilar for most of his life versus Gavilar the last year(s). He was keeping a LOT of secrets even from his secret society friends, his male relatives and male friends. He didn't tell his son anything and he didn't tell Amaram nearly everything. 

He grew close to Jasnah towards the end and seemed like he wanted to tell her more of what he was up to, but decided against it. 

It's interesting that in his last moments he chose to send the message about the KR to Dalinar. He didn't trust in Dalinar for very good reasons, but in the end he thought there was still hope for Dalinar, which is touching. 

[Karger]

The latest newsletter just released chapter one's rough draft.

[What's a Seawolf?]

18 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

The latest newsletter just released chapter one's rough draft.

For anyone with gmail, gmail clips overly long messages so you might not see the whole chapter at first.  I didn't realize this, and thought the chapter ended rather abruptly.  Hit 'view entire message' at the bottom if your chapter was cut short.

[Karger]

7 minutes ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

For anyone with gmail, gmail clips overly long messages so you might not see the whole chapter at first.  I didn't realize this, and thought the chapter ended rather abruptly.  Hit 'view entire message' at the bottom if your chapter was cut short.

Well that made a difference!

[rjl]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Well that made a difference!

Indeed though it leaves me wondering:

Spoiler

1. Why didn't Kaladin bring a disguise/illusion or something? (Surely Shallan could have wrapped him)
2. How did they know Kaladin was coming? Did they see him flying or was there a spy?

 

[Karger]

39 minutes ago, rjl said:

1. Why didn't Kaladin bring a disguise/illusion or something? (Surely Shallan could have wrapped him)

We don't know how long it would take him to get there, if Shallan is doing something more important or if the fused do not have any way of detecting them.  Also we don't know the mission parameters.  Perhaps Kaladin intends to fight this fused in a controlled setting for some reason?

42 minutes ago, rjl said:

2. How did they know Kaladin was coming? Did they see him flying or was there a spy?

Maybe they have a spanread that they can use stashed somewhere outside town or maybe they have a spot to leave written messages that Kaladin knows to check.  This is not a big problem.

[Zea mays]

Gotta say this: Lirin needs to appreciate his son for who he is now.

[Karger]

OK lets do this.  I can think of a number ways this latest preview can work out.  They are tied to the 7 ways this sequence could have happened.

The fused know.

1.  The fused have fully uncovered Kaladin's mission.  Either through a mole, future sight, or simply knowledge of Kaladin+enemy movements.  In this scenario assuming a competent military commander Kaladin is being played.  He will shortly find himself surrounded by a much greater number of fused.  Alternatively Odium is trying to give Kaladin life experiences that will make it harder for him to swear the next ideals or possibly even break his current oaths so instead what we will get is a large scale civilian causality or something similar.

2. The fused have some idea that Kaladin is in the area(they had a sighting maybe) and because they are unsure of his mission are actually just reacting to his movements.  In this case Kaladin is probably making the right move.  If he can kill the fused and evacuate his people he wins,  He might have been able to avoid fighting but the result would have meant being trapped in an area that is coming under heavy scrutiny.

The fused are catching on.

3. The fused know about Kaladin but one of them slipped up and got spotted by him.  In this case Kaladin is at something of a disadvantage but he might have enough time to put together a decent counter plan(if so I hope there are more steps to it then what he has so far).

4. Kaladin and the fused both know about each other and both know they know about each other (they both saw each other while flying in a clear sky for example).  In this case neither the fused nor Kaladin actually knows anything about the other's mission directly but are both working hard to stay ahead of each other.  In this case Kaladin is almost certainly at a disadvantage as the fused have more resources in the area(unless Kaladin brought a lot more people then I find believable).

5. Kaladin spotted one of the fused spying on him but did not react.  He spent the rest of his time coming up with countermeasures.  I hope he brought some backup.

Kaladin is playing the fused

6. Kaladin for whatever reason wants to kill this fused and is luring it into an ambush or expects to be ambushed himself here.  I personally doubt this one as it is too close to civilians and others Kaladin cares about.  Also why this particular fused?

None of the above.

7. Kaladin is well aware of what the fused are doing and was just trying to avoid them while completing his mission.  He failed.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Ookla the Prolific

[quadbox]

4 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

7. Kaladin is ell aware of what the fused are doing and was just trying to avoid them while completing his mission.  He failed.

 

I dont think he's failed yet.  If I interpreted the queue of refugees right, he's probably only about ten metres from the general, and all he's gotta do is grab him and escape, afterall.  Assuming he's got a reasonably large number of infused gemstones on him, I wouldnt bet against him.  Also, we're assuming here that he's on his own, he might well have some of bridge four, or even teft, lopen, drehey or skar with him.  Assuming his mission is just a grab and run, I reckon he's in with a fair chance of frustrating the fused again. Especially as it doesnt seem like they know the mission.

Hell it might also be that kaladin's deliberately being the distraction so the others and/or squires can do the extraction

[rjl]

5 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Maybe they have a spanread that they can use stashed somewhere outside town or maybe they have a spot to leave written messages that Kaladin knows to check.  This is not a big problem.

I meant how did the fused know, not how did Lirin know.

[Karger]

35 minutes ago, quadbox said:

I dont think he's failed yet.  If I interpreted the queue of refugees right, he's probably only about ten metres from the general, and all he's gotta do is grab him and escape, afterall.  Assuming he's got a reasonably large number of infused gemstones on him, I wouldnt bet against him.  Also, we're assuming here that he's on his own, he might well have some of bridge four, or even teft, lopen, drehey or skar with him.  Assuming his mission is just a grab and run, I reckon he's in with a fair chance of frustrating the fused again. Especially as it doesnt seem like they know the mission.

In that case this would be one of the possibilities 4, 5 or 6(I eddied 6 to make it more comprehensive).  I also meant that he failed to avoid discovery not that he would be unable to complete his mission(sorry if that is confusing).  I agree with you on point 2.  Kaladin should bring some squires with him.  They won't slow him down much and they won't be much use anywhere else particularly the low ranked ones like Lyn who don't have special skills(as far as we know).

30 minutes ago, rjl said:

I meant how did the fused know, not how did Lirin know.

They could use some kind of future sight(Odium is rather well known for it), they could be using a mole(T comes to mind but I would imagine that Odium's forces have a netweork of traitorous humans by now), they could have spotted Kaladin flying(all/most skybreakers work for Odium and there are not many Windrunners also Kaladin is quite prominent I imagine that the fused have a quite a bit of information on him) or depending on the method they might be intercepting their messages. 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Ookla the Prolific

[Isilel]

13 hours ago, rjl said:

1. Why didn't Kaladin bring a disguise/illusion or something? (Surely Shallan could have wrapped him)

 

Maybe her illusions don't last long enough for him to get to Heartstone, even when anchored to a gem filled with stormlight? In any case, this goes against Kaladin and Shallan being in the same PoV group for RoW as some people thought that they would be. I'd have expected for there to be a few more Lightweavers around  than just Shallan and Hoid  after a whole year, though. I mean, the Cryptics were obvously game to bond. And it does seem odd that Kaladin isn't accompanied and disguised by one of them when engaging in undercover missions, as he is quite memorable.

 

13 hours ago, rjl said:

2. How did they know Kaladin was coming? Did they see him flying or was there a spy?

 

My immediate knee-jerk reaction was that Roshone ratted him out, but this doesn't seem likely as the parshwoman in charge of the town was unaware and he wouldn't have been able to contact a Fused directly. Also, if an insider betrayed their operation, Lirin, Hessina and Laral would have been taken in custody immediately after the Fused arrived.

So, in the end I guess that, annoyingly, the Radiants at Urithiru still haven't figured out that intelligent spren can spy on them while they are discussing plans, and that this is Malata's and Mr. T's work. If somebody just saw a Windrunner flying, they wouldn't have known that it was Kal, as there are bound to be more of them now than just him. There already were Teft and Lopen at the end of OB.

 

8 hours ago, quadbox said:

 

I dont think he's failed yet.  If I interpreted the queue of refugees right, he's probably only about ten metres from the general, and all he's gotta do is grab him and escape, afterall.

 

Except that if he does that, then the residents of Heartstone, the refugees and certainly everybody involved in the refugee relief/concealing and abetting people wanted by the new regime are going to bear the brunt of said regime's wrath. Not to mention that if anybody tells the Fused that Kal is Lirin's and Hessina's son... well. Kaladin is in a terrible situation here and I am not sure how he could salvage it. Even if he killed the Fused and their entourage, he can't get all the humans out before retaliation descends on the town.

He and they don't know that, but even the parshmen/singers present are in danger, judging by what happened to poor Sah and his group.

[Pathfinder]

On 11/28/2019 at 4:56 AM, Isilel said:

Maybe her illusions don't last long enough for him to get to Heartstone, even when anchored to a gem filled with stormlight? In any case, this goes against Kaladin and Shallan being in the same PoV group for RoW as some people thought that they would be. I'd have expected for there to be a few more Lightweavers around  than just Shallan and Hoid  after a whole year, though. I mean, the Cryptics were obvously game to bond. And it does seem odd that Kaladin isn't accompanied and disguised by one of them when engaging in undercover missions, as he is quite memorable.

The readings still match up to me with Kaladin and Shallan working together. In the reading where Kaladin reveals himself to Lirin, he would have to look like himself, otherwise how would Lirin recognize him? So going without the illusion briefly, or lowering it to make contact makes sense to me. Second, in the most recent reading, Lirin is surprised that they are looking for Kaladin. Earlier he mentions they have a way of disguising the Mink and co. I think that means of disguise is Shallan, and that Lirin is surprised that they are tracking Kaladin. Something might have happened elsewhere that gave him away. Like for instance when Kaladin traveled with the parsh, and then fled when they reached the town/city. Someone might have gotten in danger, and he charged in to save them, blowing his cover. Whole host of possibilities. So I am still going to cling to my theory that Kaladin and Shallan are out in the field together. But to each their own. 

[FollowYourMuse]

On Nale working with the Fused or taking the side of Odium,  this is not surprising, The heralds have spent more time on Braze over the past millennium than on Roshar. Every single desolation started because one of the heralds broke, were persuaded. (Except Taln)  so I do not find it at all wrong to assume that Ishak and Nale would have switched sides long before, even Ishak having Nale removing new surgebinders,  is in the long run to the benefit of Odium and his plans. 

[Isilel]

So, let's talk about the latest reading: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/412/#e13628

Quite a few intriguing tidbits here. The biggest, of course, being the confirmation that Lift is part of Cultivation's 3(?)-prongued effort to prepare certain people as her tools. The other 2 being Dalinar and Mr T. We also finally learned Lift's wish - which was essentially to always remain herself. That means that along with all the other stuff, she is immune to the Unmade influence. No wonder that she was able to dive into Thrill-covered areas that even the Fused were afraid to enter during the Battle of Thaylenah! So, what's her "curse"?

The other significant revelation, IMHO, is that:

 

Quote

" Cultivation created her to be apart, to be separate from mankind, unconnected. She wanted to create a daughter whose shape and personality would not be influenced by the perceptions of humans. This makes the Nightwatcher less, well, human than a spren like myself."

And yet, the Nightwatcher is a Bondsmith spren, who bonded to humans in the past. But it also could be a hint that she is ultimately intended to bond with a non-human, though the singers PoVs have not been different enough from human ones, for my liking.

Also, Rock is apparently no longer at Urithiru, with his daughter taking over the Lift-abetting duties, so maybe an expedition to the Horneater Peaks will play a major role in RoW, after all?

 

Wyndle is back to his chair-obssession, it seems, and he is making shows for "the others". Who are they? Is he communicating with the other cultivationspren in Shadesmar or does he mean the other bonded Radiant spren? The whole inconsistency of bonded Nahel spren partly existing in the Cognitive Realm unless they are summoned as a blade, yet being able to hide from each other, the singers and Lift, who should be capable of seeing into the Cognitive even better than the singers, really bugs me. I hope that the logic and the limitations of how this all works will get explained in RoW.

Finally, the flute. "An old flute that Wyndle said _looked strange to him_." Is it a hint that the flute is indeed

Spoiler

TLR's? Given that everything on Scadrial is made from Ruin and Preservation alone, it would  look very strange to a spren. The other worlds that we have seen so far pre-date the Shattering and would have some Honor and Cultivation investiture in their make-up, though less than Roshar.

 

[equinox]

6 hours ago, Isilel said:

Who are they?

I was thinking about the same question. I don't think Pattern et al. would be that interested in chairs. 

I think Brandon confirmed that the flute is Hoid's. The one Kaladin lost in Sadeas' camp after the tower incident. 

And one more thing: Are we absolutely sure the nightwatcher is a bondsmith spren. I know, it's common "knowledge". But is there 100% confirmation either textwise or through Wob? 

[+Q10fanatic]

First, is this canon? Or, will it be canon?

Second, my heart just broke for Lift. I was not expecting that revelation at the end. So sweet but so tragic.

Third, is the wrap a sign of body dysmorphia? I'm interpreting that as a makeshift binder.

[Gilphon]

It's canon-ish. Like a reading from a book that he hasn't finished editing yet can't be 100% canon, but there are most likely only going to minor differences between what we just read and the canon version of the scene

And I think she's trying to conceal all signs of puberty happening with that. What with her general antipathy towards growing up and everything.

Also- I don't blame Cultivation for not interpreting what Lift asked for as 'I want immortality'. The wording really makes it sound more like 'I want to be an incorruptible beacon of hope to those around me'.

And it feels significant to me that the Nightwatcher was created by Cultivation. I had kind of been assuming that the Bondsmith spren existed pre-Shattering and were then co-opted by Honor and Cultivation, but apparently that's not the case.

1 hour ago, equinox said:

And one more thing: Are we absolutely sure the nightwatcher is a bondsmith spren. I know, it's common "knowledge". But is there 100% confirmation either textwise or through Wob? 

There isn't 100% confirmation, but there are some pretty heavy text wise implications. Like the Stormfather tacitly agreeing that the Nightwatcher is 'like him', calling the Nightwatcher his sibling, and referring to the other two Bondsmith Spren as his siblings. It's tough to think of another explanation, y'know?

[+Harrycrapper]

It must have been really tricky for Cultivation to grant Lift's request to never change. It would be like asking Ruin to preserve you. 

[Pathfinder]

9 hours ago, Isilel said:

So, let's talk about the latest reading: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/412/#e13628

Quite a few intriguing tidbits here. The biggest, of course, being the confirmation that Lift is part of Cultivation's 3(?)-prongued effort to prepare certain people as her tools. The other 2 being Dalinar and Mr T. We also finally learned Lift's wish - which was essentially to always remain herself. That means that along with all the other stuff, she is immune to the Unmade influence. No wonder that she was able to dive into Thrill-covered areas that even the Fused were afraid to enter during the Battle of Thaylenah! So, what's her "curse"?

Maybe that her body grows and matures, but she does not?

9 hours ago, Isilel said:

The other significant revelation, IMHO, is that:

 

And yet, the Nightwatcher is a Bondsmith spren, who bonded to humans in the past. But it also could be a hint that she is ultimately intended to bond with a non-human, though the singers PoVs have not been different enough from human ones, for my liking.

But Cultivation also has the Nightwatcher grant boons and curses to understand humanity better. Perhaps she made her separate so the Nightwatcher would not be especially influenced by any one person? 

9 hours ago, Isilel said:

Also, Rock is apparently no longer at Urithiru, with his daughter taking over the Lift-abetting duties, so maybe an expedition to the Horneater Peaks will play a major role in RoW, after all?

Not sure that necessarily means Rock is no longer around. 

9 hours ago, Isilel said:

Wyndle is back to his chair-obssession, it seems, and he is making shows for "the others". Who are they? Is he communicating with the other cultivationspren in Shadesmar or does he mean the other bonded Radiant spren? The whole inconsistency of bonded Nahel spren partly existing in the Cognitive Realm unless they are summoned as a blade, yet being able to hide from each other, the singers and Lift, who should be capable of seeing into the Cognitive even better than the singers, really bugs me. I hope that the logic and the limitations of how this all works will get explained in RoW.

I think this may be a sign that radiant recruitment has definitely increased in the pass year. At least to me. 

 

What I think is also interesting about this is we now know at least 3 viewpoints that most did not expect to come up. Navani, Jasnah, and Lift. I do not feel this excerpt is an interlude. We do know Jasnah and Navani won't get many viewpoints, but they definitely will have some. This makes me think the characters that will have greater prominence in the back five are slowly being expanded as we get to the end of the front five to better set them up. 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Maybe that her body grows and matures, but she does not?

I think Cultivation gave her the closest understanding to not changing.  I think Lift will always grow and change(basically she is immortal).  Your theory is interesting but I don't think it works.  Lift has sworn several ideals indicating that she herself has changed.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

But Cultivation also has the Nightwatcher grant boons and curses to understand humanity better. Perhaps she made her separate so the Nightwatcher would not be especially influenced by any one person? 

Maybe Cultivation is striving for objectivity.  Essentially someone to measure herself and her behavior against.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Not sure that necessarily means Rock is no longer around. 

Something else could be going on but it does seem like the obvious implication.  King Overlooked Stone FTW!

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

I think this may be a sign that radiant recruitment has definitely increased in the pass year. At least to me. 

Maybe.  Or maybe some of the existing spren are into Chair manifestations. 

Quote

Stormfather: This chair truly maintains its purpose through the years!  It is almost like an oath!

Syl: OOOOh  A throne for my human.  Human women like this kind of thing and Kaladin needs to get himself one.

Patern:  Hm.  This pile of wood becomes a chair through human belief and yet objectively it is just an oddly shaped plank. 

Wyndle: NOOOOO! Spark what are you doing?  Spark:  ...I just wanted to see what was inside.

Glys.  This chair will be sat in.

Szeth's spren.  This is an excellent perch do dispense Justice from!

but yeah they probably have at least a couple more radiants at the tower(and brandon says we will be seeing at least one more dustrbringer).

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

I do not feel this excerpt is an interlude

Brandon said it was Lift's interlude if I remember correctly.

Edited March 6, 2020 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

I think Cultivation gave her the closest understanding to not changing.  I think Lift will always grow and change(basically she is immortal).  Your theory is interesting but I don't think it works.  Lift has sworn several ideals indicating that she herself has changed.

Maybe Cultivation is striving for objectivity.  Essentially someone to measure herself and her behavior against.

Something else could be going on but it does seem like the obvious implication.  King Overlooked Stone FTW!

Maybe.  Or maybe some of the existing spren are into Chair manifestations. 

but yeah they probably have at least a couple more radiants at the tower(and brandon says we will be seeing at least one more dustrbringer).

Brandon said it was Lift's interlude if I remember correctly.

I disagree. But to each their own. 

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

I disagree. But to each their own. 

With everything?  Can you at least explain your rational?

[Pathfinder]

14 minutes ago, Karger said:

With everything?  Can you at least explain your rational?

Nope. I wrote my thoughts. You wrote yours. I disagree. Good luck with your theory. To each their own. 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Nope. I wrote my thoughts. You wrote yours. I disagree. Good luck with your theory. To each their own. 

About a third of what I said are not even theories so I am not sure this makes sense but OK.

Edited March 6, 2020 by Karger