Stormlight Book 4 - Readings

[CosmicSieve]

11 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

I don't see how Nale could be involved with Szeth's assassination on Gavilar. That seems to be clearly against the law, and we haven't seen Nale break the law at any point (regardless of whatever "Become the Law" actually means).

Nale seems to care about local law when acting as a law agent in a specific place, but other times just sort of overlooks the laws of specific lands when convenient. For example, he recruits Szeth despite Szeth's multiple criminal acts across much of Roshar, including states that Nale has the authority of a law agent in. Also, the Skybreaker wannabes are absolved of past crimes when they say the first oath, indicating that some of them had committed crimes before joining. Nale's lawfulness is a bit chaotic. I agree that hiring an assassin seems against his MO, though. 

[galendo]

On 9/2/2019 at 7:26 PM, Gilphon said:

I now feel fairly certain that the Black Sphere Gavilar gave Eshonai had Ulim inside. Like, he'd been handling those things a bit too casually for them to be Unmade, and they didn't seem to be the perfect gems you'd need to keep one of those imprisoned anyway. And we know that Ulim somehow managed to get off Braize years before the other Voidspren did, because he'd apparently been working Venli over for quite a while. 

This explains Ulim's arrival nicely.  As further support, we also know from Eshonai's interlude that the Parshendi learned to trap spren in gemstones from the humans.  (Boy, Gavilar really messed things up there, didn't he?)

On 9/5/2019 at 2:22 AM, Isilel said:

I don't see Gavilar planning another exodus of humans, because it isn't like uninhabited worlds with perpendicularities to enter them and everything humans need to live on them are a dime a dozen. Not to mention that unlike the flight from Ashyn, they'd have to go far out-system even if this perfect place exists, which is not likely. Nor would they have needed to bring bonded Radiant spren off Roshar for this, not to mention that they didn't have any at the time. So, what was he trying to accomplish with this?

I think you're dismissing this possibility too easily.  The Rosharans only need one habitable world, and it doesn't really matter if it's already inhabited or not.  The Alethi are no strangers to taking what they want, and an invading army with scores or hundreds of Shardbearers would cut through, well, any defense that any planet could muster.  In fact, that could be exactly why he's so interested in moving spren between worlds -- because a Rosharan invasion without Shards is at a disadvantage wherever they go, but a Rosharan army with the hundreds of sets of Blade and Plate that Gavilar knows must exist from the Stormfather's visions is an entirely different matter.

In fact, at this point it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Gavilar interpreted Honor's cryptic "Unite them" to mean "Unite all the scattered sets of Blade and Plate that my Radiants left for you so that you can lead your people to glorious victory over a new world."  Both Honor's visions and the Stormfather's comments, if Gavilar is conversing with him, can easily imply that there's no way to save Roshar.  So if you can't save Roshar, well, better go conquer someone else.

[Isilel]

On 6.9.2019 at 0:07 AM, Stormlightning said:

Although, this same night is when Gavilar tells Taravangian about his visions. Maybe he decided to tell Nale about them, too. True to his MO, Nale goes for the nuke.

 

Actually, the way I see it, if Nale was involed in the regicide, he started to set things up for it somewhat earlier than that night. After all, Liss, whom I also very much suspect of being a Herald and having had an inkling about what was going to happen that night, said that she sold Szeth a couple of weeks previously. He remained for sale until a spren just happened to lead the Parshendi to him and somehow steered their questioning of him towards him revealing that he had a Honorblade. And yes, Parshendi knew that it was a Honorblade, as Eshonai's PoVs in WoR demonstrate.

But Nale also didn't need Gavilar to tell him anything - Sons of Honor likely were on his radar anyway and once he heard about the impending alliance with the Parshendi, he could have just kept in the same general vicinity as Gavilar and sent his spren to spy on him, like Malata did with Dalinar. As I mentioned in my previous post, Jasnah specifically pegged the 2 Heralds as Ehlokar's guests and not her father's. Yet in this prologue "the uncommon figures" were all invited by Gavilar himself.

 

On 6.9.2019 at 0:07 AM, Stormlightning said:

 I've done some digging, and it seems like Gavilar's change in personality was really recent. Like, no more than a year prior to his death, but probably even less. I can't believe he could have this much information from a year of research(especially considering how long Jasnah's been researching to have so little comparatively), so I'm really starting to wonder about Restares and the Sons of Honor.

There are continuity issues between what is stated in WoK and what we learn in OB. For instance, according to OB, Gavilar began to think and talk about codes and such a couple of decades before his death, not just a year or 2. And he wanted to confide something very important to Dalinar immediately  before the Second Rathalas, which was about 5 years before his death, IIRC. So, I can only assume that he was researching things for at least that long, only he used to hide it better, even from his family, but in the last couple of years he felt that time was growing short and threw caution to the winds. 

This still doesn't explain how he was able to learn so much so quickly, when Jasnah couldn't. Particularly since Jasnah's scene with her pen-pals showed that she, too, wasn't working alone. It doesn't seem likely to me that Sons of Honor, who pre-dated Gavilar, would have had all the pertinent cosmere knowledge, since it would have destroyed their organization's reason to exist. I can only conclude that Gavilar was also working with the Ghostbloods, or, possibly, but not very likely, other worldhoppers.

 

On 6.9.2019 at 4:28 AM, Karger said:

Can highspren go invisible?  I mean Wyndle says yes but I would not put it past Gavilar to figure out some way of detecting them.  Also all Gavilar has to do to stop this is making spying on the king illegal(I bet it already is actaully). 

 

Yes, they can. Szeth specifically mentions the 2 highspren showing themselves to him after his performance in the tagging game and then that even his own spren only rarely showed itself to him. Gavilar didn't find any other Radiants, nor could he pass laws that would make him look weak or insane in the eyes of his subjects. He was also unaware of Nale's crusade. Additionally, it didn't een occur to Our Heroes that Radiant spren can be used to spy on them. Honestly, I feel like Nahel spren should be able to detect each other and the voidspren and/or Elsecallers and Lightweavers should engage their Shadesmar-vision and sweep for spying spren when exchanging secret information for it to remain secret, but that's neither here nor there.

 

On 6.9.2019 at 8:19 PM, Q10fanatic said:

I don't see how Nale could be involved with Szeth's assassination on Gavilar. That seems to be clearly against the law, and we haven't seen Nale break the law at any point (regardless of whatever "Become the Law" actually means).

 

Nale is an expert at playing the "letter of the law" loopholes, as he wouldn't have been able to eliminate the budding Radiants without criminal backgrounds otherwise. He also knew in advance  that Parshendi would react with horror to Gavilar's real offer, because he was aware of their history. So, he only made sure that they had the tool capable of killing the king at the moment when the terrible revelation came and emotions ran high. Nothing he did was against the law. He didn't order the assassination himself.

 

On 7.9.2019 at 5:16 AM, galendo said:

This explains Ulim's arrival nicely.  As further support, we also know from Eshonai's interlude that the Parshendi learned to trap spren in gemstones from the humans.  (Boy, Gavilar really messed things up there, didn't he?)

 

Yes. Though, Ulim is red(dish) and not violet-black, IIRC. Somebody also noticed that Szeth hid the other sphere in rural Jah-Keved... and we know that a particular family of rural nobility seemed to have attracted the attentions of an Unmade, for some reason. So, the sphere confided by Gavilar to Szeth may have been hidden on Davar land, and either is the source of the influence or, perhaps, attracted one of the mindless Unmade?

 

On 7.9.2019 at 5:16 AM, galendo said:

I think you're dismissing this possibility too easily.  The Rosharans only need one habitable world, and it doesn't really matter if it's already inhabited or not.  The Alethi are no strangers to taking what they want, and an invading army with scores or hundreds of Shardbearers would cut through, well, any defense that any planet could muster. 

 

Not true. Firearms would make a fairly short work of shardplate, since it can be broken by strong impacts. And Awakening can get them entangled and immobilized for the kill on the battlefield, or get them when they sleep. Not to mention that the resident Shard would not be amused. So, they'd need a minor shardworld without a Shard, but still retaining a stable Perpendicularity, which is a tall order. And if most planets have "Earth-normal" gravity and oxygen-content, the Rosharans would be at a physical disadvantage.

[Stormlightning]

Quote

"It was impossible just a few short years ago", said a deep, powerful voice, his. "This is proof. The connection is not severed but can be warped to allow for travel. Not yet, as far as you like, but we must start the journey somewhere". 

I feel the need to talk about this line. 
I get the impression from Gavilar's phrasing that he had the KNOWLEDGE to do [insert whatever they did] years ago but just didn't have the means. As in, he seems to be saying that something in the nature of the portal they are using has changed. It used to be impossible...now it's letting us get to Braize. In the future, it'll let us get even farther.

Well, the only thing significant thing I can think of that changed around this time is that Gavilar started bonding the Stormfather, plus other spren forming bonds. Honor's been dead for a long time, Taln hasn't yet given in to torture...so that's all I've got. 

What do we have as options for portals? The one portal nearby we know of is the oathgate in Kholinar, but Shallan's interactions with the spren in Thaylen City indicate that they would not be the ones allowing travel, unless even at this time Sja-Anat were around to corrupt them. Which opens all its own box of worms, but is totally possible. 

However, we also know of another portal. Whatever agreement Honor made with the Heralds, it gave them some sort of ability to transfer between worlds, and trap Odium's cognitive shadow friends there, and who knows what else. Since we know that the oathpact isn't entirely shattered, it may be that something about how it works can be manipulated. And hey, we suddenly have Tanavast's sorta-cognitive-shadow around to do just that!

So, here's a fun theory: The two in this scene are Nale and Kalak, on errand from Ishar. Whether it's actually possible or not, Ishar believes that they can alter the oathpact by negotiating with Gavilar, the one who now speaks for Honor. He knows that the desolation is getting closer, and believes that when Taln breaks, the oathpact will be done with. In which case, everyone dies, so their only option is to get outside Odium's influence--leave the Rosharan system.

So there's a highly questionable tinfoil theory explaining why Nale would be okay with any of this, what method is being warped for travel, and why they even want to go beyond Braize. Ta-da!

[Chiberty]

They might not be talking about the connection being used as a portal. We know that spren have a Connection to their planet that normally stops them from leaving. This is likely referring to a Spren's connection to a planet (Roshar or Braize) being changed to allow them to leave--just through the Cognitive Realm like is normally done.

[Gilphon]

I took that line to mean that the techniques used to reach Braize had been developed in the past few years. Like it relies on some fabrinal that had been invented recently, or there are some engineering problems involved that Nale and Kelek incorrectly thought were unsolvable.

Like, the way Gavilar phrases it reminds of some rich tech mogul talking about new developments have changed everything, and now his company will take things ever further, if that makes sense.

[Isilel]

So, thanks to @AviH we have a bit  more of the prologue, revealing the identities of "ambassadors from the West":

and it looks like some of my guesses here have been confirmed:

 

On 5.9.2019 at 11:22 AM, Isilel said:

 

The Heralds role in all of this - I am quite certain that Nale _didn't_ truly team up with Gavilar. This goes against everything he believed in prior to the climax of  "Edgedancer".  But Kalak might have. IIRC, Sanderson said somewhere that the Heralds could subconsciously sense that the Desolation was coming, even those in deep denial. And from what we have seen of Kalak he'd want to run away if he possibly could - which this research would have helped him with, because Heralds have the same problems with leaving Rosharan system that the spren do. But, if this was the case then, IMHO, Nale became interested in Gavilar's doings and bullied Kalak into bringing him into it and then convinced him that Gavilar was wrong and needed to die.

I also take this:

Quote

 

Gavilar: "We can speak again after that."

"No," the Azish man said, voice sharp. "I doubt that we shall."

 

as confirmation that Nale was at the very least aware of the impending assassination. I only wonder why it took him so long to send somebody to take care of Amaram, after Gavilar name-dropped him here. After all, Amaram had been fighting in military skirmishes for years after Gavilar's death and before Helaran came for him and it is completely lawful to kill a person on the battlefield. Maybe it wasn't the first attempt and Amaram had been good enough to survive previous ones?

Also, an interesting insight into Gavilar's motivations re: keeping Navani out of it. He didn't think that she could handle it, heh. Well, Sanderson did describe her as "orthodox Vorin" in his WoBs, though I'd argue that her nonchalance in the face of the news that the Almighty was dead kinda belies this description. But why did he exclude Jasnah?

@Wander89:

Would it be possible to edit the title of this thread in something more generally referring to book 4 prologue readings? We can start a new thread, of course, but there is a lot of good discussion already here.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Isilel

[Wander89]

9 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Would it be possible to edit the title of this thread in something more generally referring to book 4 prologue readings? We can start a new thread, of course, but there is a lot of good discussion already here.

Great idea, I've amended the thread title now

[Isilel]

Thanks, @Wander89!

Anyway, it suddenly occurred to me that this meeting happened _before_ Gavilar's talk with Eshonai, but the Parshendi had already acquired Szeth. Which only strengthens my conviction that Nale was the one who arranged that particular shopping trip through his spren and was fully expecting both that Gavilar would approach the Parshendi with his offer and their reaction.

Kalak  only knows of Shalash's presence, hm... Which still doesn't preclude Liss from also being a Herald, though. After all, he doesn't seem to know that Jezrien is also around. Of course, Nale could have also just blackmailed her into selling Szeth. In Jasnah's prologue Liss did seem very aware that something big was going to happen before it did, however. So, my money is still on Herald Liss!

Eagle-eyed people on the stormlight reddit have also noticed that Gavilar being the one who somehow detected Navani, plus the "aura" that she so cavalierly dismisses as anything supernatural are indications of him having some Breath and I can only agree.

[+Child of Hodor]

On 9/5/2019 at 11:43 PM, dvoraen said:

@Stormlightning @Child of Hodor The problem that I have with the two being Nale and Kalak boils down to one question:

Why would Nale permit this?

I don't understand what his motive for this experiment would be when he's been actively pursuing individuals that, in his words, could tamper with and/or weaken the seal keeping the Fused and Voidspren locked up on Braize.  Typically that's been due to removing budding Surgebinders, but the conversation is explicitly talking about bringing something from Braize, which is pretty blatantly against Nale's stated goal of keeping matters as they are.

Because it's a means to an end. Escaping the Roshar system. His and the other 8 Heralds primary deal is not wanting to go back to Braize. It's defined and destroyed their lives over the 4,500. Nale is a cognitive shadow and has a harder time than a normal human of escaping a system. Otherwise he could have taken Cultivation's perpendicularity and gone to Sel or Nalthis, somewhere with no vessels or with vessels of a Shard that stands a better chance against Odium. 

On a long enough timeline Odium will get his forces back to Roshar, and since Nale is functionally immortal he's doomed to eventually fall back into Odium and the Fused clutches. He knows that and wants out. 

He wants to use Gavilar's idea to warp as far away from Odium as he can. He's willing to take a risk to do that.

The thing about Nale is he's a huge hypocrite. He goes on and on about having the proper forms from local authorities and following the law of the land he's in. Then he recruits Szeth who went into foreign lands and murdered the rulers of those lands in their homes. His justification is because Szeth held to his own separate code, but Szeth's oathstone is not the law of the lands he murdered all those people in. Then he gives Szeth Nightblood, an incredibly powerful sentient sword that follows it's own interpretation of what evil is, regardless of what laws it's victims have or have not broken. 

I'd argue the real reason he sided the Fused is that he doesn't want to be tortured again. Can't beat them join them. The "true rulers" thing is rationalization. The Fused, in their first lives, gave Shinovar to humans so he could go there and be justified in defending humanity from there, but he doesn't want to. 

[Karger]

8 hours ago, Isilel said:

Also, an interesting insight into Gavilar's motivations re: keeping Navani out of it. He didn't think that she could handle it, heh. Well, Sanderson did describe her as "orthodox Vorin" in his WoBs, though I'd argue that her nonchalance in the face of the news that the Almighty was dead kinda belies this description. But why did he exclude Jasnah?

I think this points to a flaw of Gavilar that has been hinted at but never explicitly shown yet.  He is a misogynist.  It is noteworthy that despite looking for Radiants and possibly being one himself that he can't ID his own daughter as one of them.  He also made sure that Jasnah and that said brother would be in the succession despite knowing that his heir would have an extremely difficult time and both his children's temperaments were clearly visible when they were children he still chose Elhokar. 

8 hours ago, Isilel said:

as confirmation that Nale was at the very least aware of the impending assassination.

We already knew that Nale knew about Szeth from Jasnah's prologue.

8 hours ago, Isilel said:

I only wonder why it took him so long to send somebody to take care of Amaram

The Heralds don't even care about Amaram enough to have him assassinated.  Yeah I said it Amaram.  They don't care about you at all.

8 hours ago, Isilel said:

After all, Amaram had been fighting in military skirmishes for years after Gavilar's death and before Helaran came for him and it is completely lawful to kill a person on the battlefield. Maybe it wasn't the first attempt and Amaram had been good enough to survive previous ones?

We still don't know that Nale actually sent Heleran.  Mraize says that he might have taken the mission upon himself.  I also am under the impression that Amaram had an inflated view of his own importance even within the organization.  He was useful but I don't see anyone with a brain trusting him to do anything more complicated then stand there looking regal and occasionally to lead troops.  He was likely just intended as a public face.

7 hours ago, Isilel said:

Eagle-eyed people on the stormlight reddit have also noticed that Gavilar being the one who somehow detected Navani, plus the "aura" that she so cavalierly dismisses as anything supernatural are indications of him having some Breath and I can only agree.

We know he is on the Bondsmith path and that he is a trained soldier.  Also when did he get Breath?  He can't have gone personally so who did he send?  Finally people would notice if he actually had the 5th heightening.  It is not exactly subtle.

5 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

His justification is because Szeth held to his own separate code, but Szeth's oathstone is not the law of the lands he murdered all those people in

Szeth was not sworn to the law of the kings he murdered only to his own lands.  Nale is probably sworn to the law generally not to any specific region's.

5 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Then he gives Szeth Nightblood, an incredibly powerful sentient sword that follows it's own interpretation of what evil is, regardless of what laws it's victims have or have not broken

Nightblood is capable of killing a Herald.  Permanently.  Nale suspects that Szeth may follow a different path then he does.

5 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

The Fused, in their first lives, gave Shinovar to humans so he could go there and be justified in defending humanity from there, but he doesn't want to. 

No.  Odium has won the lands by right of conquest.  Honor is dead and Cultivation is in hiding.  As such because a god is the ultimate authority he must answer to Odium as he is currently the preeminent law.

[Pathfinder]

36 minutes ago, Karger said:

No.  Odium has won the lands by right of conquest.  Honor is dead and Cultivation is in hiding.  As such because a god is the ultimate authority he must answer to Odium as he is currently the preeminent law.

Nale was quite explicit. It was because the Fused returned to claim their land that he sided with them. Not because of Odium. 

 

Oathbringer page 1104

"A god is dead. Another won the war by right of conquest. The original masters of this land have returned, as you so aptly made metaphor, with the keys to the house. Whose law should the Skybreakers follow? That of humans, of that of the real owners of this land?"

 

Oathbringer page 1114

"You must choose, Szeth - son - Neturo," Nin said. "The Skybreakers will swear to the Dawnsingers and their law. And you? Will you join us?"

 

Oathbringer page 1197

"You have determined that the parshmen are the true owners of this land, and that the Skybreakers should follow their laws"

Edited October 16, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

46 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

"You have determined that the parshmen are the true owners of this land, and that the Skybreakers should follow their laws"

Bit of leeway.  The Parsh are master of the land because Odium says so. 

[Pathfinder]

40 minutes ago, Karger said:

Bit of leeway.  The Parsh are master of the land because Odium says so. 

Eh, personally I disagree, but I can see why you would feel that way, so to each their own. 

[Karger]

7 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Eh, personally I disagree, but I can see why you would feel that way, so to each their own. 

Agreed.

[Isilel]

21 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

On a long enough timeline Odium will get his forces back to Roshar, and since Nale is functionally immortal he's doomed to eventually fall back into Odium and the Fused clutches. He knows that and wants out. 

 

Actually, the newest reading (from Tel Aviv) proves the opposite:

Quote

 

Gailar: "We can speak again after that."

"No," the Azish man said, voice sharp. "I doubt that we shall."

"There's more here, Nale!" The Alethi man said, but his friend towed him out the door, protesting "This is important! I want out! This is the only way!"

 

Neither Nale nor Kalak have been working with Gavilar - they were just learning about what he was doing concerning smuggling things from Braize in this scene. And while Kalak wants to know more and admits that he wants out, Nale cuts him off and broadly hints that Gavilar is not long for this world. That's not to say that Nale isn't a hypocrite, as he indeed is, just not about this.

 

21 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

I'd argue the real reason he sided the Fused is that he doesn't want to be tortured again. Can't beat them join them. The "true rulers" thing is rationalization. The Fused, in their first lives, gave Shinovar to humans so he could go there and be justified in defending humanity from there, but he doesn't want to. 

I don't know about that. Apparently, he needed Ishar's "guidance" to make this decision. Additionally, if he wanted to die for real, he had a perfect tool in his posession - Nightblood. In fact, it seems to me that he had been setting Szeth up to kill him eventually, but Nale could have also just suicided if his main goal was to escape more torture. Also, would the Heralds even be drawn back to Braize if they died after breaking the Oathpact? Is it feasible that none of them died in the 4.5 millenia, despite some of them, like Jezrien and Shalash, pursuing rather unsafe lifestyles?

 

15 hours ago, Karger said:

I think this points to a flaw of Gavilar that has been hinted at but never explicitly shown yet.  He is a misogynist.

There were 2 women in the gathering that Eshonai stumbled on in OB prologue. The old one could have been Adrotagia, but the younger was somebody else, presumably brought in by Gavilar. It may or may not have been Aesudan, who was also involved in some way. So why her and not the brilliant, heretical Jasnah, who wouldn't have been too shocked by any of Gavilar's revelations? I mean, apart from everything else Aesudan was likely just 19-20 at the time.

Also, I see no particular misogyny in Ehlokar being the heir - as far as we know there never were queens or ruling High Princesses in Alethkar and Jah Keved, and a conqueror's heir is always in a dangerous enough position that any sensible person would try to avoid the additional risk of them also being a wholly untraditional choice. OTOH, by the same logic it was customary for the Vorin women to be scholars and scientists - and Gavilar certainly was in need of those for his undertaking.

 

15 hours ago, Karger said:

 We still don't know that Nale actually sent Heleran.  Mraize says that he might have taken the mission upon himself. 

Helaran got the shards for a reason. It isn't like every Skybreaker acolyte is provided with them. And why would he have targeted Amaram on his own, specifically?

It suddenly occurs to me that poor Tien had extra bad luck to get conscripted in that particular army, because Skybreakers likely kept an eye on Amaram, at least through their agents, which led to his quick discovery.

 

15 hours ago, Karger said:

  He was useful but I don't see anyone with a brain trusting him to do anything more complicated then stand there looking regal and occasionally to lead troops.  He was likely just intended as a public face.

Not according to what we have seen from Shallan's and his own PoVs in WoR. He was tasked by the Sons of Honor with finding Urithiru and actually did some solid work in that direction, that later helped Shallan to accomplish it.

15 hours ago, Karger said:

We know he is on the Bondsmith path and that he is a trained soldier.  Also when did he get Breath?  He can't have gone personally so who did he send?  Finally people would notice if he actually had the 5th heightening.  It is not exactly subtle.

Yes? The Heralds are also "trained soldiers" and highly Invested, but they didn't notice Navani. Nale's highspren must have been doing something else somewhere else, instead of guarding them from eavesdroppers. As to who gave Gavilar Breaths - the same people who made those trips to Braize for him. The worldhoppers that he had been working with. Who I strongly suspect to have been Ghostbloods. Their interest in Sja-Anat at the end of OB would fit well with it.

And who is talking about the 5th Heightening? The 1st one gives you better health, an extra decade of life, increased life-sense and an aura so weak that it wouldn't be properly detected by a non-Nalthian, like in this very prologue!   

 

15 hours ago, Karger said:

No.  Odium has won the lands by right of conquest.  Honor is dead and Cultivation is in hiding.  As such because a god is the ultimate authority he must answer to Odium as he is currently the preeminent law.

This is Nale's view of things in OB after he received Ishar's "guidance".

However, it has recently occurred to me that Odium's agreement to the battle of champions "for the fate of Roshar" is the ultimate legal proof that he hasn't conquered  _yet_. And it may be the very reason why the one-year lull between books 3 and 4 with Nale and the Skybreakers seemingly passive during all this time is even possible.

Anyway, my current theory about Gavilar is that he was working with a number of different people and groups, none of which were privy to his plans in their entirety. At least some of them had to be worldhoppers and IMHO it is highly likely that they were Ghostbloods. Certainly, this would explain how Gavilar could have acquired so much Cosmere knowledge so quickly. He also knew the name of the Ghostblood leader in his assassination scene and judging by his words, he has done something that he knew Thaidakar didn't approve of.

The last few sentences raise the question of where the rest of Gavilar's spheres from this scene are now. We only know about the 2. Did Nale steal the rest? Is it why Gavilar was so desperate that "_they_ must not get it" during his death scene? Certainly, it would be out of character for Nale to leave such dangerous stuff just lying around - and in Edgedancer he didn't connect the voidspren to Gavilar, so he must have believed that he got them all?

There is also at least one unidentified person who was present in Gavilar's meeting with Taravangian that Eshonai blundered on - the other "soldier". We have good guesses as to who the 2 women are, but no confirmation.

What happened to all the other bit characters in this prologue, I wonder? I really hope that some of them pop up in the present narrative.

 

A couple of minor details:

Oh, and we really should have seen peak fashionista  Adolin here! The kingdom isn't at war - so why is he in uniform? This whole close connection to the tailor in Oathbringer and Adolin's general reputation as a clothershorse is one of the examples of "tell, don't show" plaguing SoA.

The mere sight of Dalinar makes Navani all hot and bothered, heh.

 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Neither Nale nor Kalak have been working with Gavilar - they were just learning about what he was doing concerning smuggling things from Braize in this scene

Then why reveal their identities?  I will not discount the probability that they are all trying to play each other but that does not mean that they are not working together.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

There were 2 women in the gathering that Eshonai stumbled on in OB prologue. The old one could have been Adrotagia, but the younger was somebody else, presumably brought in by Gavilar. It may or may not have been Aesudan, who was also involved in some way. So why her and not the brilliant, heretical Jasnah, who wouldn't have been too shocked by any of Gavilar's revelations? I mean, apart from everything else Aesudan was likely just 19-20 at the time.

I am going to take this as agreement.  Gavilar has some misogynistic tendencies.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Also, I see no particular misogyny in Ehlokar being the heir - as far as we know there never were queens or ruling High Princesses in Alethkar and Jah Keved, and a conqueror's heir is always in a dangerous enough position that any sensible person would try to avoid the additional risk of them also being a wholly untraditional choice.

Playing it safe during a crisis(and Gavilar's eventual death is a crisis) is generally not a good idea.  While perhaps Gavilar choosing not to make Jasnah his heir has some solid justification.  This does not mean that it was necessarily a good choice. 

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Helaran got the shards for a reason. It isn't like every Skybreaker acolyte is provided with them. And why would he have targeted Amaram on his own, specifically?

To prove himself.  Also the Skybreakers need to entrust their shards to someone and it can't be a Radiant.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

It suddenly occurs to me that poor Tien had extra bad luck to get conscripted in that particular army, because Skybreakers likely kept an eye on Amaram, at least through their agents, which led to his quick discovery.

  Possibly.  I personally think the ghoostbloods were more involved with that one.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Not according to what we have seen from Shallan's and his own PoVs in WoR. He was tasked by the Sons of Honor with finding Urithiru and actually did some solid work in that direction, that later helped Shallan to accomplish it.

He directed mapping of the shattered plains.  This is not that complicated and he may have been the only person with the necessary cover(high ranking general).

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Yes? The Heralds are also "trained soldiers" and highly Invested, but they didn't notice Navani.

Or did they?  Dun Dun Dun!

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

As to who gave Gavilar Breaths - the same people who made those trips to Braize for him

I do not think anyone is physically going to or from Braize other then the Voidspren.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

The worldhoppers that he had been working with. Who I strongly suspect to have been Ghostbloods. Their interest in Sja-Anat at the end of OB would fit well with it.

This line of reasoning is interesting.  Please go further.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

And who is talking about the 5th Heightening? The 1st one gives you better health, an extra decade of life, increased life-sense and an aura so weak that it wouldn't be properly detected by a non-Nalthian, like in this very prologue!   

Decent point.  It could also be Brandon trolling us again.

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

However, it has recently occurred to me that Odium's agreement to the battle of champions "for the fate of Roshar" is the ultimate legal proof that he hasn't conquered  _yet_. And it may be the very reason why the one-year lull between books 3 and 4 with Nale and the Skybreakers seemingly passive during all this time is even possible.

Hmmm.

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

The last few sentences raise the question of where the rest of Gavilar's spheres from this scene are now. We only know about the 2. Did Nale steal the rest? Is it why Gavilar was so desperate that "_they_ must not get it" during his death scene? Certainly, it would be out of character for Nale to leave such dangerous stuff just lying around - and in Edgedancer he didn't connect the voidspren to Gavilar, so he must have believed that he got them all?

Possible.  Not all Voidspren accounted for.  This is bad.

 

[agrabes]

On 10/16/2019 at 0:26 PM, Karger said:

I think this points to a flaw of Gavilar that has been hinted at but never explicitly shown yet.  He is a misogynist.  It is noteworthy that despite looking for Radiants and possibly being one himself that he can't ID his own daughter as one of them.  He also made sure that Jasnah and that said brother would be in the succession despite knowing that his heir would have an extremely difficult time and both his children's temperaments were clearly visible when they were children he still chose Elhokar. 

This is kind of a pet peeve of mine, but why do you choose to call Gavilar a misogynist rather than a sexist?  This probably isn't something about you in particular, since in popular culture over the last several years this has also been done.

A misogynist means a person who hates women.  This is the term you use for a wife beater or someone who lives their life consumed with hatred and conspiracy theories about women.  Gavilar doesn't seem to fit this description.

A sexist means a person who discriminates based on sex.  Gavilar does show some possible tendencies of this, such as choosing to pass on his inheritance through the male line and of seemingly underestimating Navani's intelligence.  Though I also think all of those things you mentioned are circumstantial.

He doesn't ID his daughter as a Radiant - we don't know for sure that he doesn't, we also don't know what level of interaction he has with his daughter.  It may be that he rarely sees either of his children due to his duties as king and therefore has no real chance to see this.  That would make him a neglectful father, but not a sexist or misogynist.

He chose Elhokar despite Jasnah being the better choice in terms of capability - This is likely a sexist choice based on societal biases and cultural norms (women were likely not easily accepted as political rulers, we see very few in Alethkar) though you could also take Isilel's argument and say he wanted to name her but felt he couldn't for political stability reasons.

His behavior toward Navani is not good - This could be sexism or even true misogyny, or it could be a personal grudge or dislike toward Navani as an individual.  We don't know enough about their relationship to say.

[Karger]

42 minutes ago, agrabes said:

This is kind of a pet peeve of mine, but why do you choose to call Gavilar a misogynist rather than a sexist?  This probably isn't something about you in particular, since in popular culture over the last several years this has also been done.

Probably because due to the way gender roles in Vorin lands works are almost every character including the female ones are sexist.  I was aiming for something stronger although I agree misogynist is overstating it.

43 minutes ago, agrabes said:

A misogynist means a person who hates women.  This is the term you use for a wife beater or someone who lives their life consumed with hatred and conspiracy theories about women.  Gavilar doesn't seem to fit this description.

Just a quick point Navani is clearly unhappy in her relationship despite trying her best to make it work.  She also claims in WoKs that Gavilar gave her ample reason to be unfaithful.  Make of this what you will.

45 minutes ago, agrabes said:

A sexist means a person who discriminates based on sex.  Gavilar does show some possible tendencies of this, such as choosing to pass on his inheritance through the male line and of seemingly underestimating Navani's intelligence.  Though I also think all of those things you mentioned are circumstantial.

Maybe.  Maybe not.  See above.

46 minutes ago, agrabes said:

He doesn't ID his daughter as a Radiant - we don't know for sure that he doesn't, we also don't know what level of interaction he has with his daughter.  It may be that he rarely sees either of his children due to his duties as king and therefore has no real chance to see this.  That would make him a neglectful father, but not a sexist or misogynist.

For someone concerned with legacy it would also make him a bad king.  Jasnah also mentions that this is the time when she truly felt connected to he father WoKs.  So even at one of the better moments in their relationship he still notices nothing.

47 minutes ago, agrabes said:

He chose Elhokar despite Jasnah being the better choice in terms of capability - This is likely a sexist choice based on societal biases and cultural norms (women were likely not easily accepted as political rulers, we see very few in Alethkar) though you could also take Isilel's argument and say he wanted to name her but felt he couldn't for political stability reasons.

Queen Fen is one of his neighbors so it is not impossible.  Considering his current project not involving either of his genius level intellect female family members was nuts especially considering that they are both experts in what he is interested in(fabrials and history).  Not including Elhokar and Dalinar makes sense but come on man.   You have the two people you need right there and they are related to you!

50 minutes ago, agrabes said:

His behavior toward Navani is not good - This could be sexism or even true misogyny, or it could be a personal grudge or dislike toward Navani as an individual.  We don't know enough about their relationship to say.

True.  This is just a vibe I am picking up.  It could be accurate or not.

[Gilphon]

I'd call him a misogynist. Look at the way he talks to Navani. More specifically, look at the way he calls her 'woman' as a dismissive insult. He's most of the way towards telling her to get back in the kitchen and make him a sandwich. 

[Stormlightning]

Sorry, I have no idea why my quotes look so ridiculous, and the site is being weird and won't let me edit the post. 

[Chaos]

It's because you're using Grammarly, which does not work with CKEdit, our editor. Please disable it on this site.

I do unfortunately have to remove the grammarly posts, as they rather horrifically break how quotes are done here for some reason...

[Gilphon]

So, a thought: Kalak's current goal is more or less the direct opposite of the goal of the Sons of Honor. Which further implies that Gavilar's motives had ceased to be aligned with theirs by this point. 

[MrGgreen]

Maybe Gavilar thought that *Unit Them* was meant for the Heralds, thus going to Braize as a rescue mission to retrieve Taln. If Taln was rescued, before he broke, then maybe they would have had time to prepare... (Gavilar's potential reasoning) Maybe Gavilar saw how the Heralds were in mental distress, present on Roshar but lacking purpose in their duty to prepare for the next desolation. Quick fix? Bring back Taln to try ending their guilt, and get them motivated? This could make sense in my mind, as in, Why would the Heralds discuss, with Gavilar, about going back to Braize, otherwise? Also, about the trapped *voidish?* spren, this could be another argument on Gavilar's part: "See guys, nothing to be afraid of, we can trap Odium's spren, if they were to chase us there.". Sorry if this idea was already brought up, I didn't have time to read through the entire post.

 

Edit: also maybe taking Odium's Perpendicularity, warping it to do their biding, using the trapped spren somehow, or other means?

Edited October 21, 2019 by MrGgreen

[goody153]

Ok this just made the murder party faaar more fascinating.

Love how each book the murder party gains more light and hidden depths cannot be seen in one perspective. Now it sounds like the murder of Gavilar isn't just a simple one-sided murder intention from the Parshendi.