Stormlight Book 4 - Readings

[Vindo]

Maybe it will role back around to Galivar having noble intentions. Maybe he already knew about the breaking of the oathpact and was trying to arrange for the forming of a new oathpact. 

[Karger]

14 hours ago, Isilel said:

*Scratch that. Re-reading the passage it does seem that he is talking about taking the voidspren from Braize. But if the black spheres are the result of such spren-napping, why is it not "enough"? They are on Roshar, aren't they? Did Gavilar want to take them to the worlds outside of his star system?

Perhaps he wants to banish them to a harmless shardworld where they can do no damage because spren are realy hard to kill.

[Pagerunner]

The relevant WoB from the following Q&A has been transcribed:

Quote

Questioner

Would a Seeker burning Bronze be able to tell what Order of Knight Radiant <a person is? Or atleast if they're holding Stormlight?>

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but they'd have to be actively using it, right? So you could hear somebody - for instance - lashing, but if you just saw somebody who'd drawn in Stormlight, you probably wouldn't be able to tell until they use that Stormlight, which it was. You'd be able to probably hear that they have the Stormlight.

Questioner

<>

Brandon Sanderson

No they're not. You'd be able to do that. In fact there are other things in the Cosmere that are kind of the same sort of "radar detection" here and there, that you can read in the same way. Bronze is just the one of the best... way to do it - being a Seeker is really handy for these reasons.

Being able to go off planet with your Allomancy also is a pretty big advantage. It's really hard, for instance, to get a Surgebinder off of Roshar, because of the connection stuff that's happening. In fact you may have heard in a prologue just recently someone complaining about that.

Footnote: The prologue Brandon talk's about can be found here.
DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)

There's another one that hasn't been transcribed yet, but the audio is up for it (about Szeth trying to assassinate Prof from Steelheart), where Brandon tosses out a throwaway line saying Gavilar had plenty of time to get ready for Szeth's attack. Which doesn't fit with the 'established' narrative, where the Parshendi decided to kill him that night because of his conversation with Eshonai. Which... I guess we already knew that Gavilar was aware an attack on his life was imminent, since he thought Szeth had been sent by the Ghostbloods. But it's not like he got ready for Szeth personally. (Although, Nale did seem to be aware of Szeth, since his companion was talking about him. So he could have warned Gavilar. [Boy, oh boy, the rabbit hole goes deeper and deeper.])

[dvoraen]

So would anyone like to place wagers on Navani seeing Gavilar "make" the black sphere right after this part that was read?  It seems pretty clear to me that he had his "found" Unmade by that point, but it didn't seem like the feast was in full swing yet at the time of this reading.

Edited September 3, 2019 by dvoraen

[Pagerunner]

3 minutes ago, dvoraen said:

So would anyone like to place wagers on Navani seeing Gavilar "make" the black sphere right after this part that was read?  It seems pretty clear to me that he had his "found" Unmade by that point, but it didn't seem like the feast was in full swing yet at the time of this reading.

I'll take that wager. I think she catches him talking about making them, but I don't think she sees him in the act. I'd bet black spheres, whatever they are, come from Braize.

[Gilphon]

So a few things snapped into place for me when I read the transcript, and then this thread. 

I now feel fairly certain that the Black Sphere Gavilar gave Eshonai had Ulim inside. Like, he'd been handling those things a bit too casually for them to be Unmade, and they didn't seem to be the perfect gems you'd need to keep one of those imprisoned anyway. And we know that Ulim somehow managed to get off Braize years before the other Voidspren did, because he'd apparently been working Venli over for quite a while. 

And now we know that Gavilar was taking things off of Braize, but was treating it mostly as proof of concept, so he likely wasn't grabbing anything he consider to be too important. Like, maybe, one or two of the native spren. And I can't but think that Eshonai would've given the sphere to Venli for research purposes after receiving it. 

[Karger]

17 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

I now feel fairly certain that the Black Sphere Gavilar gave Eshonai had Ulim inside. Like, he'd been handling those things a bit too casually for them to be Unmade, and they didn't seem to be the perfect gems you'd need to keep one of those imprisoned anyway. And we know that Ulim somehow managed to get off Braize years before the other Voidspren did, because he'd apparently been working Venli over for quite a while. 

This was my assumption after reading Oathbringer.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Karger

[dvoraen]

1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

I'll take that wager. I think she catches him talking about making them, but I don't think she sees him in the act. I'd bet black spheres, whatever they are, come from Braize.

Actually, tell you what.  I'll double-down on it and wager that we'll see him turn a Stormlight sphere into a black/Voidlight sphere.

[What's a Seawolf?]

On 8/31/2019 at 9:12 PM, Wander89 said:

"Being able to bring them back and forth from Braize doesn't mean anything, Gavilar", one of them said. "It's too close to be a relevant distance".

"It was impossible just a few short years ago", said a deep, powerful voice, his. "This is proof. The connection is not severed but can be warped to allow for travel. Not yet, as far as you like, but we must start the journey somewhere". 

This seems to imply Gavilar is seeking ways to transport something beyond the Rosharian system.  (Braize not being as far as they'd like.)

If Gavilar was seeing the same visions as Dalinar, I think it's feasible his interpretation was 'Well we're royally screwed, let's get everyone off Roshar and away from Odium.'

What I can't figure out is if his interaction with Eshonai in OB supports that.  He flat out says he's trying to return the Parsh gods and he needs a threat to unite everyone.  Is it feasible his end goal, once united, was not to fight but flee?  Maybe somehow trapping the Parsh gods on Roshar in the process?

[Gilphon]

9 minutes ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

This seems to imply Gavilar is seeking ways to transport something beyond the Rosharian system.  (Braize not being as far as they'd like.)

If Gavilar was seeing the same visions as Dalinar, I think it's feasible his interpretation was 'Well we're royally screwed, let's get everyone off Roshar and away from Odium.'

What I can't figure out is if his interaction with Eshonai in OB supports that.  He flat out says he's trying to return the Parsh gods and he needs a threat to unite everyone.  Is it feasible his end goal, once united, was not to fight but flee?  Maybe somehow trapping the Parsh gods on Roshar in the process?

Hmm. This could explain why Nale was on-board. Like, for obvious reasons I can't imagine him being on-board with the 'bring back the Heralds' end goal of the Sons of Honor. But if Gavilar's plan was 'let's give the Parsh their planet back and find a new one for ourselves'? That's a possibility I could see him being willing to entertain. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Gilphon

[Subvisual Haze]

Wow, that was unexpected!  What in the world is Nale trying to accomplish? 

My eyes are drawn to [Rushar Kris] the reclusive elderly ardent, who is also a master fabrian and now has created a design to help Gavilar trap/bind voidspren. I think we have our first sighting of Herald Ishar!

[Stormlightning]

Man, all this stuff seems so contradictory.
Gavilar: "I'll bring back the Parsh gods. It will save your people. I'm being selfless." 
Eshonai: "Bad idea."
Amaram: "We're actually doing this to force the Heralds out of hiding." 
Nale: "Dude I'm right here."
Gavilar: "Actually, we're doing this because I nEeD UnItY and threats are effective."
Amaram: "Yeah, and it'll bring back Vorinism."
Gavilar: "That's not what I said. But it'll bring back the Radiants, so...sure." 
Nale: "Ishar is NOT okay with that. But he's also not okay with returning the Parsh gods, so...why am I here?"
Gavilar: "What do you suppose we do? Stormdaddy tells me we're doomed."
Kalak: "Can we run away? Did that once with our last planet and it worked out for millennia." 
Nale: "The Wheel of Time turns...wait, wrong series."
Gavilar: "Ohh, secrets I can exploit...how do we open a passage to another planet?"
[REDACTED]
Gavilar: "Look, I got this voidspren."
Nale: "I'm not sure why I'm okay with this. But we need to go deeper."
Amaram: "What's that got to do with HoNoR?"
Gavilar: "Glad we're all on the same page."
Szeth: "...did I miss a meeting?"

[Wyndlerunner]

All this is very juicy. I'm betting that Aesudan, if she wasn't already involved with the Sons of Honor, probably learned about Gavilar's plans on this night. I am so very intrigued by this. 

SA 4 hype!

[Karger]

First. Hahahahahahaha

5 minutes ago, Stormlightning said:

Gavilar: "I'll bring back the Parsh gods. It will save your people. I'm being selfless." 
Eshonai: "Bad idea."

Secondly my impression is this.

Gavilar(thoughts): The Parsh must want their gods back because that made them powerful.  Everyone wants power.  If I can get them to have their gods then their gods will make them go on the offensive against us and great the parsh the power to do so effectively.  Potentially this will do several things.

1. Get the Radiants back.  When the enemy comes I am going to need them(and would be realy nice to be one).

2. Make everyone in power suspicious of their Parshe servants.  When people you associate with your slaves develop superpowers it is noteworthy.

3. Keep my kingdom together and solidify my authority to the point where my empire can last for several generations(nothing does this better then dangerous enemies)

4. Restart research into the ancient threats of the desolation(the parshe, voidbinding, the unmade, and Odium).  We want to be prepared. 

In summary Gavilar's plan is to kick off the desolation early.  He wants to solidify his power and prevent the conflict from starting on his enemie's terms.  However doing so will be tricky.

12 minutes ago, Stormlightning said:

Amaram: "We're actually doing this to force the Heralds out of hiding." 

Gavilar would clearly need errand boys(and girls) to secretly prep his country(and other countries) for the desolation that he is going to kick off.  Amaram and the Sons of Honor fit the bill nicely.  Their religious nature, and self righteousness makes them easy to manipulate and many of them are military officials or scholars.  Perfect for what he wants.

18 minutes ago, Stormlightning said:

Nale: "Dude I'm right here."

This is where things get tricky.  Gavilars research and actions is going to make waves even if he is careful and it strikes me that some of the more aware Heralds(like Nale) are likely to notice his activities.  They would certainly investigate him and the results could be any of the following.

1. Gavilar knows, suspects or figures out the divine identities of the people he is interviewing.  He adopts his Son of Honor persona to gain information from them and let them continue thinking they duped him.

2. Gavilar knows, suspects or figures out the divine identities of the people he is interviewing.  He tells them the truth and they don't like it.  As a result they pretend to agree with his goals and latter allow(or possibly aid in) his assassination.

3. Gavilar does not know the identities of the Heralds and instead is trying to go global with his goals.  As a result they pretend to agree with his goals and latter allow(or possibly aid in) his assassination.

4. Gavilar knows, suspects or figures out the divine identities of the people he is interviewing.  He tells them the truth and they all agree to secretly work on a project together.  This is interrupted by his assassination and Nale has to start hunting down all of Gavilar's agents who no longer know what they are doing.

28 minutes ago, Stormlightning said:

Kalak: "Can we run away? Did that once with our last planet and it worked out for millennia." 

Gavilar.  This could be necessary and I find this interesting.  Continue. 

I think everything else can be explained by what I said.

On 9/1/2019 at 4:17 PM, ginger_reckoning said:

To me, this seems like he wanted the artifabrian to make a fabrial out of the black sphere...which, since it probably holds an unmade, would be pretty scary. 

Or really useful.  Thrill on command for example.

[Subvisual Haze]

In the Oathbringer prologue, Gavilar specifically mentions to Eshonai restoring her people's Gods (spren) and a great storm (Everstorm).

Integrate that with Gavilar now mentioning warping a Connection to move something to and from Braize, with the end goal being to move something beyond Braize.

Combined I think Gavilar was planning to use the Everstorm (which currently largely seems to transport Odiumspren from Braize to Roshar, and occasionally sentient minds to talk with Odium) as a mass teleportation device to move an exodus of humans out of the Roshar system?

Taravangian sees himself as continuing Gavilar's work, so I think it makes sense that Gavilar's goals match fairly closely with Taravangian: do anything possible to ensure that at least some humans survive this mess.  They both seem to have decided that Odium winning this war is inevitable, so they might as well try to evacuate humanity before the coming storm.  Some of the Heralds may feel the same way, they just want to find a way to run away and hide.

Amaram and the rest of the Sons of Honor seem like useful idiots that Gavilar lied to about the true intentions.

[+Child of Hodor]

Quote

 

"Being able to bring them back and forth from Braize doesn't mean anything, Gavilar", one of them said. "It's too close to be a relevant distance".

"It was impossible just a few short years ago", said a deep, powerful voice, his. "This is proof. The connection is not severed but can be warped to allow for travel. Not yet, as far as you like, but we must start the journey somewhere". 

 

It seems like they used the Heralds Connection to Braize (what makes them go back automatically when they die) to transport something from and back to Braize as a test for larger plans. Likely, getting out of the Roshar system.

Happy to learn Gavilar's plan was not as dumb as it seemed after OB (bring back Voidbringers to bring back Heralds) He knew the Heralds were still around and was actively working with them. 

EDIT: Kalak and Nale knew Szeth was coming for Gavilar, "my lord's own blade" and they didn't help him . It's one thing if they just happened to get an invite and bailed when they saw trouble coming, but they were actively working with Gavilar and they left him to die. 

I know, they've abandoned mankind for 4,500 years which is a much bigger betrayal and they are all crazy. But, Nale could have easily stopped Szeth and he didn't bother. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Child of Hodor

[Subvisual Haze]

The only way I can make sense of Nale is that he follows Ishi with cult-like devotion and Ishi gives him terrible advice.

[dvoraen]

One thing I really want to comment that I'm seeing in this thread is that there's a very big assumption being made that the two to whom Gavilar is speaking are Nale and Kalak.  Sure, they were given as "Ambassadors from the West" per Jasnah's prologue, but was it ever explicitly said that they were the only people described as "Ambassadors from the West"?  To my recollection, that's not the case, and there were multiple foreign dignitaries in Kholinar that day, including Taravangian.

Edited September 5, 2019 by dvoraen

[Isilel]

Quote

to get a Surgebinder off of Roshar, because of the connection stuff that's happening. In fact you may have heard in a prologue just recently someone complaining about that.

This WoB is so very odd! Why would Gavilar be so interested in getting a Surgebinder off Roshar?! He himself was a proto-Bondsmith, but he didn't even progress as far along the path to Radiancy as his son eventually did, since he wasn't infusing stormlight in his death scene. And it was dark, so there was no way for Szeth or even Jasnah looking from above to miss it, if Gavilar started to glow.

Also, Aesudan claimed in chapter 84 of OB that:

Quote

“Have you seen my Radiants?” Aesudan asked. She grinned. “The Queen’s Guard? I’ve done what your father could not. Oh, he found one of the ancient spren, but he could never discover how to bond it."

So, as far as she knew - and she seemed to have been involved in whatever Gavilar was doing to some degree, he never found any other budding Radiants. Nor did he or his associates notice Jasnah becoming one, despite her shadow doing funky things for a few months before Ivory confronted her on that fateful night.

I don't see Gavilar planning another exodus of humans, because it isn't like uninhabited worlds with perpendicularities to enter them and everything humans need to live on them are a dime a dozen. Not to mention that unlike the flight from Ashyn, they'd have to go far out-system even if this perfect place exists, which is not likely. Nor would they have needed to bring bonded Radiant spren off Roshar for this, not to mention that they didn't have any at the time. So, what was he trying to accomplish with this?

Not starting a False(?) Desolation, because you'd think that bringing spren from Braize and releasing Bo-Ado-Mishram would be enough for that. And I do think that starting one was on his agenda too - not to return the Heralds or to achieve the triumph of Vorinism, but so that Rosharans would become aware of their danger and be very motivated to prepare for the Final Desolation that Honor's visions told him was coming. A vaccination, of sorts.

Could Gavilar have been thinking about shipping the Unmade, other than BAM, out of Rosharan system, to tilt the odds in humans' favor during the Final Desolation? Or, after his seeming failure to find/create any Radiants, did he conclude that 2 millenia ago not every old Radiant committed Recreance, that some of them may have gone off-world and taken their spren with them? That these spren would be more amenable to bonding again? And his experiments with voidspren-napping from Braize are "proof" of this having been possible?  But then, you'd think that if Gavilar had agents visiting Braize(!), he'd have had them approach various Nahel spren peoples directly and would have learned that the Truthwatcher spren, Cryptics and Cultivationspren at least were open to the idea of bonding. And that Nale and his merry followers kept killing any human who dared to try.

The Heralds role in all of this - I am quite certain that Nale _didn't_ truly team up with Gavilar. This goes against everything he believed in prior to the climax of  "Edgedancer".  But Kalak might have. IIRC, Sanderson said somewhere that the Heralds could subconsciously sense that the Desolation was coming, even those in deep denial. And from what we have seen of Kalak he'd want to run away if he possibly could - which this research would have helped him with, because Heralds have the same problems with leaving Rosharan system that the spren do. But, if this was the case then, IMHO, Nale became interested in Gavilar's doings and bullied Kalak into bringing him into it and then convinced him that Gavilar was wrong and needed to die. That is, if the 2 Heralds were the ones having the conversation with Gavilar that Navani eavesdropped on in this prologue. 

In WoR prologue, from Jasnah's PoV, Kalak said:

Quote

“I don’t like this. What we’ve done was wrong. That creature carries my lord’s own Blade. We shouldn’t have let him keep it. He—”

which very strongly suggests to me that the Heralds had something to do with Szeth and the king's assassination.

There is also this interesting detail:

 

Quote

Her brother had invited these two to the celebration along with every other ranking foreign dignitary in Kholinar.

As far as Jasnah knew, it wasn't Gavilar himself, but _Ehlokar_ who invited the Heralds to the feast. And as somebody who was running security checks of all the people invited, she should know. They were also shown chatting with him when Szeth left the feasting hall to begin his murdering in WoK prologue. So, there is a good reason to doubt that they are the people that Gavilar is talking with in this reading. Particularly since from Eshonai's prologue in OB we also learned that Gavilar felt that somebody was watching him. Which very likely was Nale's highspren. Nale didn't really need to get close to Gavilar to find out what he was doing - he or another full Skybreaker just needed to be in the vicinity and have their spren run the surveillance, like Malata does in OB.

[+Child of Hodor]

9 hours ago, dvoraen said:

One thing I really want to comment that I'm seeing in this thread is that there's a very big assumption being made that the two to whom Gavilar is speaking are Nale and Kalak.  Sure, they were given as "Ambassadors from the West" per Jasnah's prologue, but was it ever explicitly said that they were the only people described as "Ambassadors from the West"?  To my recollection, that's not the case, and there were multiple foreign dignitaries in Kholinar that day, including Taravangian.

I think it has to be two male heralds and Nale & Kalak were joined at the hip during the feast. They know all about Braize and a Connection to it that can be manipulated.

When Jasnah sees the two of them in the hallway there is no one else around and she says "ambassadors from the West". There were only two of them both male and now Navani uses the exact same phrase for two men who know about Braize and how to get there. 

Szeth also sees the two of them talking to Elhokar "Elhokar, the king's son and heir, sat at the high table, ruling the feast in his father's absence. He was in conversation with two men, a dark-skinned Azish man who had an odd patch of pale looking skin on his cheek and a thinner, Alethi-looking man who kept glancing over his shoulder. " WoK prologue

Gavilar knew who they really were, "ambassadors from the West" was a cover story any other ambassadors Gavilar would talk about Braize with would also be a Herald. Ishar is the only one not accounted for, he could be one of them. I wouldn't be surprised if all 9 heralds on Roshar were in the palace at some point that day/night. 

[Stormlightning]

14 hours ago, dvoraen said:

One thing I really want to comment that I'm seeing in this thread is that there's a very big assumption being made that the two to whom Gavilar is speaking are Nale and Kalak.  Sure, they were given as "Ambassadors from the West" per Jasnah's prologue, but was it ever explicitly said that they were the only people described as "Ambassadors from the West"?  To my recollection, that's not the case, and there were multiple foreign dignitaries in Kholinar that day, including Taravangian.

I'm actually really tempted to agree with you to some extent; the more I try to fathom how Nale is involved in Gavilar's plans the more it just doesn't make sense. Although, this same night is when Gavilar tells Taravangian about his visions. Maybe he decided to tell Nale about them, too. True to his MO, Nale goes for the nuke.

But anyway, if it's not Nale and Kalak, my first assumption is that Brandon doesn't remember how direct his use of "ambassadors from the West" was and Peter/Karen will likely point this out so he changes it to something that doesn't scream "those two guys from every other prologue" at us. Or he is intentionally going for the red herring.

Throughout the rest of this reading, Navani thought quite a bit about Gavilar's new shady friends, and all the other references seemed like it was talking pretty concretely about the Sons of Honor. I've done some digging, and it seems like Gavilar's change in personality was really recent. Like, no more than a year prior to his death, but probably even less. I can't believe he could have this much information from a year of research(especially considering how long Jasnah's been researching to have so little comparatively), so I'm really starting to wonder about Restares and the Sons of Honor. Even though the book says that Gavilar isn't their founder/leader, I've always kinda thought of him that way, and therefore thought of the Sons of Honor as a fairly young organization. But now I'm thinking they might be really really old, perhaps old enough that their name came from out of the shift humans made from Odium to Honor.

I have more to say on this topic but I gotta run, and also, I need to do a bit more research. More thoughts to come.

[Karger]

17 hours ago, Isilel said:

ich very likely was Nale's highspren. Nale didn't really need to get close to Gavilar to find out what he was doing - he or another full Skybreaker just needed to be in the vicinity and have their spren run the surveillance, like Malata does in OB.

Can highspren go invisible?  I mean Wyndle says yes but I would not put it past Gavilar to figure out some way of detecting them.  Also all Gavilar has to do to stop this is making spying on the king illegal(I bet it already is actaully). 

[dvoraen]

@Stormlightning @Child of Hodor The problem that I have with the two being Nale and Kalak boils down to one question:

Why would Nale permit this?

I don't understand what his motive for this experiment would be when he's been actively pursuing individuals that, in his words, could tamper with and/or weaken the seal keeping the Fused and Voidspren locked up on Braize.  Typically that's been due to removing budding Surgebinders, but the conversation is explicitly talking about bringing something from Braize, which is pretty blatantly against Nale's stated goal of keeping matters as they are.

Edited September 6, 2019 by dvoraen

[What's a Seawolf?]

18 hours ago, Stormlightning said:

I can't believe he could have this much information from a year of research(especially considering how long Jasnah's been researching to have so little comparatively), so I'm really starting to wonder about Restares and the Sons of Honor

I'd never thought of it this way, but now that you mention it, that is odd.  By all accounts, Jasnah is the master researcher and scholar we all know her to be, so what source of knowledge did Gavilar and and the Sons of Honor have that she did not know about?  Unless it came from a Herald for some unknown purpose?  Maybe Nale found out Gavilar was receiving visions from Honor and at first went 'woah, we can still talk to that dude?'

 

11 hours ago, dvoraen said:

I don't understand what his motive for this experiment would be when he's been actively pursuing individuals that, in his words, could tamper with and/or weaken the seal keeping the Fused and Voidspren locked up on Braize.  Typically that's been due to removing budding Surgebinders, but the conversation is explicitly talking about bringing something from Braize, which is pretty blatantly against Nale's stated goal of keeping matters as they are.

This is a good point.  Maybe Nale wasn't certain of Gavilar's intentions until right at that moment, and with Gavilar being King, Nale might not have been able to pin him down on breaking a law.  Hence he lets Szeth do his thing.  (In this scenario, it wouldn't matter if Nale was ultimately responsible for sending Szeth or not.)

[+Q10fanatic]

I don't see how Nale could be involved with Szeth's assassination on Gavilar. That seems to be clearly against the law, and we haven't seen Nale break the law at any point (regardless of whatever "Become the Law" actually means).