Dancer

Leaching and Nicrobursting

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After reading up on how Chromium and Nicrosil work I have come to realize just how OP a Mistborn is. Chromium leaching is quite devastating to anyone using kinetic Investiture but it burns fast. Nicrosil can be used to augment peoples powers but can also be used in a similar manner to Chromium by rapidly depleting an enemies power. If you were a Mistborn and you Leached and Nicrobust someone at the same time I don't think anyone even a KR holding a lot of Stormlight will be able to hold on to their power.      

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There are ways around this.  Leaching and Nircrobursting both require physical contact(just try getting a hold on a KR).  Also individuals with enough investiture can resist this to a degree by just having enough that they can keep going when the metal runs out.

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I haven’t read up on those metals too much, so give me a little leeway for my ignorance. But if chromium and nicrosil only target kinetic investiture wouldn’t investiture stores still be safe? In that case, a knight radiant might not be completely depleted so long as he had some charged gems on him. On the flip side, can these metals target breaths in the same way?

Edited by Kramerfarve
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44 minutes ago, Kramerfarve said:

I haven’t read up on those metals too much, so give me a little leeway for my ignorance. But if chromium and nicrosil only target kinetic investiture wouldn’t investiture stores still be safe? In that case, a knight radiant might not be completely depleted so long as he had some charged gems on him. On the flip side, can these metals target breaths in the same way?

Based on how KR are able to rather quickly and easily draw stormlight from gemstones, I'd guess that stormlight in gemstones doesn't have a lot of "momentum" (for lack of a better word) and could probably be affected by leaching.

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18 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

Based on how KR are able to rather quickly and easily draw stormlight from gemstones, I'd guess that stormlight in gemstones doesn't have a lot of "momentum" (for lack of a better word) and could probably be affected by leaching.

Won't matter if you can't touch them.

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9 minutes ago, Karger said:

Won't matter if you can't touch them.

Okay, so that means it'll be hardest to do so to Windrunners, Edgedancers, and Skybreakers. Maybe even Lightweavers, depending on their illusion veracity. What about the rest? 

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As of era 2 a Mistborn would likely just try to shoot them from a distance (probably with either Aluminium or Ettmetal rounds). If the NR thinks of getting in close to avoid theses projectiles then he/she can Leach Nicroburst them. Brandon has said that Chromium can also stop a Shardblade from being summoned. I don't know if it will un-summon an already summoned Shardblade but if it can then you can also take a NR most trusted weapon.  

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1 hour ago, Invocation said:

Okay, so that means it'll be hardest to do so to Windrunners, Edgedancers, and Skybreakers. Maybe even Lightweavers, depending on their illusion veracity. What about the rest? 

We don't realy know about transportation but if it can't help our Elsecallers and WIllshapers then it does not deserve its name.  Stonewards can earthbend so I doubt touching them is possible.  Dustbringers are as hard to hit as Edgedancers(same surge remember) and neither Bondsmiths nor Truthwatchers are combat heavy orders(I also think Bondsmiths might be able to just overwhelm your metal supply due to their overabundance of investiture).

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21 minutes ago, Karger said:

We don't realy know about transportation but if it can't help our Elsecallers and WIllshapers then it does not deserve its name.  Stonewards can earthbend so I doubt touching them is possible.  Dustbringers are as hard to hit as Edgedancers(same surge remember) and neither Bondsmiths nor Truthwatchers are combat heavy orders(I also think Bondsmiths might be able to just overwhelm your metal supply due to their overabundance of investiture).

I think you're forgetting how mobile a Mistborn is... With a good supply of metal they would be able to keep up with most orders. Windrunners and Skybreakers would still be a problem.

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14 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

I think you're forgetting how mobile a Mistborn is... With a good supply of metal they would be able to keep up with most orders. Windrunners and Skybreakers would still be a problem.

We currently have no Mistborn.  Even if we did that Mistborn would probably not want to go mano a mano with shardwielders.  Also I think your underestimating what Radiants can do if they want to avoid combat.  Edgedancers and Dustbringers can move faster(no whiplash).  Elsecallers, Lightweavers, Willshapers, and stonewards can put up obstructions or just leave.  Windrunners and Skybreakers can fly.

 

PS how do you find of WoBs number?  Am currently editing a page on the coppermind.

Edited by Karger
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5 minutes ago, Karger said:

We currently have no Mistborn.  Even if we did that Mistborn would probably not want to go mano a mano with shardwielders.  Also I think your underestimating what Radiants can do if they want to avoid combat.  Edgedancers and Dustbringers can move faster(no whiplash).  Elsecallers, Lightweavers, Willshapers, and stonewards can put up obstructions or just leave.  Windrunners and Skybreakers can fly.

Not sure what bolded part has to do with anything as this entire conversation is about a hypothetical Mistborn using his powers against others.

Edgedancers and Dustbringers are fast so long as they're going in a straight line (which would make them really easy targets.)  Mistborn can turn way better and I think a Mistborn would still be faster. The knights are basically ice-skating which isn't nearly as fast as flying Imo.

Lightweavers would be hard to find but that's about it. Once they're found it's over, though I agree a skilled Lightweaver would be hard/impossible to find. Unless bronze can detect lightweaving.

Elsecallers could always vanish into the cognitive realm. You would have to take them by surprise to have a chance.

Willshapers/Stonewards we have barely seen so I don't think either of us have much to argue with!

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5 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

Edgedancers and Dustbringers are fast so long as they're going in a straight line (which would make them really easy targets.)  Mistborn can turn way better and I think a Mistborn would still be faster. The knights are basically ice-skating which isn't nearly as fast as flying Imo.

That is not exactly true.  They can control abrasion or friction so they can render part of themselves sticky and turn quite quickly(also even figure skaters can change directions more rapidly then you seem to believe). 

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1 hour ago, Karger said:

That is not exactly true.  They can control abrasion or friction so they can render part of themselves sticky and turn quite quickly(also even figure skaters can change directions more rapidly then you seem to believe). 

Lol. I for one have not watched much figure skating; I was mostly thinking about my attempts at turning with rollerblades. So it's possible they would be equals in that regard. However Mistborn wouldn't have any terrane restrictions. The knights would have to watch for uneven ground and other tripping hazards, while the Mistborn would be soaring above.

I'm going to take your silence on my other points as agreement.

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6 hours ago, Karger said:

Won't matter if you can't touch them.

Wax got Leeched at a distance on a train in The Bands of Mourning, it was the first use of the "Allomantic grenade" cube that we saw. If a Leecher could drain a KR of Stormlight in the same way that the Larkin did that Nale used to drain Lift, it would stand to reason a similarly charged cube would do the same.

And what about Nicrobursting? Nuisance nicrobursting (unexpected and unwelcome) sounds like something with great potential, not only in-world, but also from the POV of a real life reader (i.e., I think it'd be hilarious). Zap a Coinshot just as he/she is taking off and watch them fly off with a bang, with no steel left in them! Or a Windrunner who suddenly performs an octuple Lashing!

Best. Metalborn. Prank. Ever!

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33 minutes ago, robardin said:

Wax got Leeched at a distance on a train in The Bands of Mourning, it was the first use of the "Allomantic grenade" cube that we saw. If a Leecher could drain a KR of Stormlight in the same way that the Larkin did that Nale used to drain Lift, it would stand to reason a similarly charged cube would do the same.

We are talking about a mistborn v radiant mach up.  If we want to go this wrought it would technically only be fair to give the radiant some fabrail tec.  Even if we don't higher level radiants have armor that will insulate them from the effect.

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I think everyone is forgetting that the primary job of a Mistborn is assassination. If the Mistborn jot the job to kill a KR and the KR somehow knew there was an assassination attempt on them they would probably be treated as a normal human. Meaning that the KR we see when they fight against normal humans usually just glow up and fight at close quarters using their powers directly on their target or using their Shardblades. If this happens then the Mistborn will get close enough to leach Nicroburst them rendering them powerless (so long as there are no gems around).

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On 8/31/2019 at 6:43 AM, Karger said:

We are talking about a mistborn v radiant mach up.  If we want to go this wrought it would technically only be fair to give the radiant some fabrail tec.  Even if we don't higher level radiants have armor that will insulate them from the effect.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a Mistborn vs Radiant match up. This is a discussion on how leaching and Nicrobursting would work on anyone using kinetic Investiture. Which brings up a thought would Chromium and Nicrosil work on a Feruchemist who is either tapping or storing a metalmind. 

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6 hours ago, Dancer said:

It doesn't necessarily have to be a Mistborn vs Radiant match up. This is a discussion on how leaching and Nicrobursting would work on anyone using kinetic Investiture. Which brings up a thought would Chromium and Nicrosil work on a Feruchemist who is either tapping or storing a metalmind. 

Depends on the powers that feruchemist has.  If they have full then my money is on the feruchemist with steel.

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On 9/2/2019 at 5:06 AM, Dancer said:

It doesn't necessarily have to be a Mistborn vs Radiant match up. This is a discussion on how leaching and Nicrobursting would work on anyone using kinetic Investiture. Which brings up a thought would Chromium and Nicrosil work on a Feruchemist who is either tapping or storing a metalmind. 

We saw Wayne throw up a speed bubble around himself and Wax, but excluding Bleeder, to cancel out her tapping a steelmind for speed. She totally wasn't expecting it.

Of course, Wayne's bubble is stationary, and it doesn't help in a direct, close-up fight with a Steelrunner, who'd be inside the bubble instead of outside. But Marasi's cadmium bubble would work on an unsuspecting Steelrunner to enable outside help to see the speed canceled out (as long as they don't have to fire projectiles through the bubble).

If a Steelrunner knows an allomantic time bubble is in play, though, they could tap at a higher multiplier to a level further than the Allomancer can flare, given enough speed in the steelmind.

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Just use emotional allomancey. Its hard to run fast when your frozen with fear or your in one of Kaladins crippling depressive states. I would assume the influx of emotion that strong will have the same effect as when Vasher gave Denth 50 breaths at one just before he killed him. Brandon even said that this is one of the ways to get around someone using Atium if you don't have any. 

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On 8/30/2019 at 3:10 PM, Steel Inquisitive said:

I'm going to take your silence on my other points as agreement.

Oh no you don't

On 8/30/2019 at 0:17 PM, Steel Inquisitive said:

Lightweavers would be hard to find but that's about it. Once they're found it's over, though I agree a skilled Lightweaver would be hard/impossible to find. Unless bronze can detect lightweaving.

Lightweavers may have a way into the CR.  We don't know.  Even if they do not they are still shardbearers so that is going to be a problem even for a Mistborn.  Also duplicate and attack from all directions at the same time!

On 8/30/2019 at 0:17 PM, Steel Inquisitive said:

Willshapers/Stonewards we have barely seen so I don't think either of us have much to argue with!

Shrugs.  We saw a stoneward use cohesion(it was totally cohesion) in SA 3.  They can retreat into a palace and kill mistborn from afar with earthbending.

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12 minutes ago, Karger said:

Oh no you don't

Took you long enough!:P

13 minutes ago, Karger said:

Lightweavers may have a way into the CR.  We don't know.  Even if they do not they are still shardbearers so that is going to be a problem even for a Mistborn.  Also duplicate and attack from all directions at the same time!

I seriously doubt Lightweavers can do anything besides look into the CR. A mistborn just has to get close enough to touch, so shardbearers wouldn't be too much of a problem(Just watch out for the pointy end!). I feel like leaching would make the illusions pretty worthless.

17 minutes ago, Karger said:

Shrugs.  We saw a stoneward use cohesion(it was totally cohesion) in SA 3.  They can retreat into a palace and kill mistborn from afar with earthbending.

  From the little clip we saw it would seem like their power requires close contact with the stone that they wish to manipulate. Also if they could kill from afar, the one in the vision would have done so to the fused.

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On the broad question of whether Leeching works on Stormlight in gems, the fact that a larkin can suck the Investiture out of gems (and people) suggests that A-Chromium would work similarly, since the two function on similar principles. You'd still need to get a Leecher close enough to touch the target of course, or throw one of the allomantic grenades but that's a whole other kettle of cremlings. Likewise a larkin can steal Investiture from Shardplate with effort so Leeching probably would work on it as well, hypothetically. Practically-speaking you'd get punched or Shardbladed into the Beyond before you could hold on long enough to actually drain that Investiture.

On 9/2/2019 at 8:38 AM, Karger said:

Depends on the powers that feruchemist has.  If they have full then my money is on the feruchemist with steel.

Yeah, a Steelrunner with sufficient speed reserves is pretty hard to get anywhere near unless you catch them completely by surprise or you've got the environment working in your favor and they don't have anywhere to run... though even then they could probably just run into you and bowl you over before you could Leech them, if they're willing to accept the likelihood of injury to themselves from the impact.

But I think @Dancer's question wasn't the plausibility of Leeching/Nicrobursting any given type of feruchemist but whether the effect would work on a feruchemist at all. WoB says they can affect metalminds, it would just take longer because of Investiture interference. Doesn't even have to be kinetic, it seems. That limitation is more something that A-Bronze has to worry about.

On 9/3/2019 at 1:50 PM, Dancer said:

Just use emotional allomancey. Its hard to run fast when your frozen with fear or your in one of Kaladins crippling depressive states.

This would work, as long as the person doesn't have some way to resist the effect. Shardplate might provide resistance since you'd get Investiture interference, moreso if it's Radiant Plate I assume. We do know that 'dead' Shardplate doesn't protect against the Thrill so it's up in the air just how much protection the Plate would provide, but I imagine it would be at least something.

Hmmm, we know there are fabrials that can affect emotions, I wonder if you could make one that grants resistance to Soothing or Rioting similar to the kandra Blessing of Stability?

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1 hour ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

Took you long enough!:P

I apologizes I must have missed your post.

1 hour ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

I seriously doubt Lightweavers can do anything besides look into the CR

I believe that we have a WoB that states otherwise.  Either way Mistborn can be soulcast themselves.  Also if you convert all of the metal in the area into smoke and then retreat?  Or soulcast a couple barricades to keep them out.  Or pretend your soulcastsing but make most of your defenses illusions so that they loose line of sight.   Lightweavers are in many ways the most dangerous of the Radiants.

1 hour ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

mistborn just has to get close enough to touch, so shardbearers wouldn't be too much of a problem(

Snorts.  Those are 6 foot blades we are talking about.  Also powered body armor.  Also we don't know how easy or hard it is to vanish a radiant blade.

1 hour ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

I feel like leaching would make the illusions pretty worthless.

You feel incorrectly.  If 6 people are attacking you then one can get behind you.  If they can get behind you then they can stab you with their 6 foot blades that you have no defense against.  If you try and touch all of them illusions you will have to expose yourself to attacks from multiple sides.

1 hour ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

the little clip we saw it would seem like their power requires close contact with the stone that they wish to manipulate

So make a fortification and practice archery, wait in a cave and just wait for them to run out of metals, have your spren tell you when they fall asleep and then walk over and kill them.  Otherwise they have to go on the offensive against a guy who they can't current;y see and has a giant blade and the ability to crush them between rocks.

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11 hours ago, Karger said:

So make a fortification and practice archery, wait in a cave and just wait for them to run out of metals, have your spren tell you when they fall asleep and then walk over and kill them.  Otherwise they have to go on the offensive against a guy who they can't current;y see and has a giant blade and the ability to crush them between rocks.

A Mistborn can just use steelsight to find them hiding behind there stone or use bronze. The problem of attacking them still stands though. I would assume that burning Aluminium would protect you from Soulcasting. Soulcasting is using Investiture to change you spiritweb right. Aluminium purges unwanted Investiture from you spiritweb so it should protect you if you know what you are doing. Anyway this thread has morphed from the whether anyone would be able to hold on to their investiture when their being simultaneously leached and Nicroburst to a Mistborn vs anyone thread.  

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