Eshonai vs. Venli Flashbacks?

[Karger]

7 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Seeing as these are earlier books and some people have complained that flashbacks are boring (a fact that Brandon has discussed) although I liked flashbacks but upon rereads I tend to skip over flashbacks, after oathbringer it seems that Brandon is likely to aim for Dalinar style flashbacks 

How?  Dalinar's flashbacks realy only mattered in so far as they effected Dalinar.  Venli clearly remembers her past(I think) so I don't see how having her flashbacks will enhance the plot itself.

[Aon Tia]

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

Venli clearly remembers her past(I think) so I don't see how having her flashbacks will enhance the plot itself.

She remembers it I am sure but her past is unknown to us.

how she met ulim? How did ulim escape? Had she anything to do with Gavilar? Etcetra etcetra. I can think of a few interesting revelations happening there. Which might explain and help us better understand the past events and might make readers like Venli too. Which a lot of readers do not. 

[Jaywalk]

10 hours ago, Karger said:

Venli clearly remembers her past(I think) so I don't see how having her flashbacks will enhance the plot itself.

Kaladin and Shallan both remembered their pasts.

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Jaywalk said:

Kaladin and Shallan both remembered their pasts.

And neither of their flashbacks enhanced the plot itself.  They only enhanced our understanding of the characters which in tern effected the plot.  If we can understand a character some other way then flashbacks are redundant.

12 hours ago, The traveller said:

She remembers it I am sure but her past is unknown to us.

how she met ulim? How did ulim escape? Had she anything to do with Gavilar? Etcetra etcetra. I can think of a few interesting revelations happening there. Which might explain and help us better understand the past events and might make readers like Venli too. Which a lot of readers do not. 

The events her sister relates as well as statements she makes in the future could easily explain this kind of stuff to us.

Edited September 22, 2019 by Karger

[Jaywalk]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

And neither of their flashbacks enhanced the plot itself.  They only enhanced our understanding of the characters which in tern effected the plot.  If we can understand a character some other way then flashbacks are redundant.

I’d have to disagree. Kaladin’s gave us a connection to Amaram before he was introduced into the story, and Shallan’s affected the plot just because of the element of mystery—and her Shardblade.

I don’t see how understanding the characters better is a bad thing.

[Karger]

6 minutes ago, Jaywalk said:

I’d have to disagree. Kaladin’s gave us a connection to Amaram before he was introduced into the story, and Shallan’s affected the plot just because of the element of mystery—and her Shardblade.

But even without flashbacks Kaladin's I hate Amaram statements and Adolin's this guy is too good to be true as well as Jasnah's assessment told us everything we needed to know about him.

As to Shallan.  The Shardblade was personal to her and only realy effected her.  Also it only worked as a sort of plot element because it was a mystery. 

8 minutes ago, Jaywalk said:

I don’t see how understanding the characters better is a bad thing.

It is nothing of the sort.  I just see no reason why some people think an author of Brandon's caliber can't find another way to help us understand a character other then a flashback.

[Aon Tia]

10 hours ago, Karger said:

It is nothing of the sort.  I just see no reason why some people think an author of Brandon's caliber can't find another way to help us understand a character other then a flashback.

brandon is more than capable. he can probably ditch both of them and write flashbacks from Rlain's pov and still make us understand venli as a character. for all we know Venli and Rlain were probably besties, or arch enemies!! the point is that brandon had kind of promised us eshonai flashbacks but if he feels that they might not work or may come out as more of a fluff then i understand that. and i will be more than happy to read flashbacks from Venli's pov. in fact, to me personally it makes sense. 

may be brandon is trying to do something new that it need not be the main characters flashbacks every book. i am sure he can make that work too. but Venli's book Venli's flashbacks. it makes sense. it works too. 

 

 

[Karger]

9 hours ago, The traveller said:

he can probably ditch both of them and write flashbacks from Rlain's pov and still make us understand venli as a character. for all we know Venli and Rlain were probably besties, or arch enemies!!

I would actually prefer that.

[Aon Tia]

11 hours ago, Karger said:

I would actually prefer that.

Yup I am beginning to think so too. Thank you 

[Vindo]

I'd like Rlain as well, but isnt each flash back meant to be for a specific order. Which I'm hoping for Rlain to become a windrunner, as he is an important member of Bridge 4. Yes I know you don't have to be a windrunner to be a member of Bridge 4. 

[Aon Tia]

4 hours ago, Vindo said:

I'd like Rlain as well, but isnt each flash back meant to be for a specific order. Which I'm hoping for Rlain to become a windrunner, as he is an important member of Bridge 4. Yes I know you don't have to be a windrunner to be a member of Bridge 4. 

i think main character of each book has to be of a particular Order i.e. Venli here. Not for Flashbacks. If that were true then Eshonai is even more impossible because she is neither. She may have attracted Timbre but never even reached the first oath stage. She is not a Willshaper either.

 

I do want Rlain to be a Windrunner. i want him to touch the sky with his fellow brothers.

 

[SongStorm]

I come here to inform Brandon has decided (and finished !)

https://twitter.com/BrandSanderson/status/1177129181609463809

 

 

[Aon Tia]

good decision and he is finished writing them too awesome!!

[Pagerunner]

Glad the flashback sequence is done. I'm hoping that one of these scenes winds up as the "something" that Brandon will read at the Skyward 2 release.

[Ciridae]

I feel like this is the best solution, I’m happy we’re getting both. He says its 30k, thats about as long as Edgedancer, right? Does anybody know how long the other flashback sequences were?

[SongStorm]

2 hours ago, Ciridae said:

I feel like this is the best solution, I’m happy we’re getting both. He says its 30k, thats about as long as Edgedancer, right? Does anybody know how long the other flashback sequences were?

Kaladin's around 39 K

Shallan's 22 K

Dalinar 45 K

[Use the Falchion]

1 hour ago, SongStorm said:

Kaladin's around 39 K

Shallan's 22 K

Dalinar 45 K

That's awesome then! I'm sure it might feel weird to people on a first readthrough because the POVs are split. Like the flashbacks are both too short and too long at the same time. But they'll meld better on subsequent readthroughs. Either way that's a solid length for the flashbacks and I'm excited. 

On 9/26/2019 at 6:14 AM, Pagerunner said:

Glad the flashback sequence is done. I'm hoping that one of these scenes winds up as the "something" that Brandon will read at the Skyward 2 release.

Ohh good idea! 

[+Oltux72]

How would you introduce the process of changing forms of a Singer other than by flashbacks? The Fused are taking it for granted. But how are the supposed to understand Forms of Power unless we see how they were discovered?

[Honorless]

I voted for Eshonai primarily because I really liked her

But I genuinely believe that having her as the flashback character would add more to the story. At this point, our understanding of Singer/Listener/Parshendi (what are we supposed to call them now? first one is dated, second one refers to a split-off group that survived the False Desolation with their minds intact and the last is an exonym. None encapsulate the whole newly freed group of people) culture is still lacking. We do know that humans (both Ashynites and Iriali, and possibly the Dysian and Siah Aimians too, while the rest of the races like the Natan, Unkalaki, Herdazian are just descendants of these other groups' mixing) were refugees on Roshar. Then they slowly conquered it. We haven't really had the perspective of the Listeners on the sorrow, memories and sheer scale of history of the original native people of Roshar who are slowly losing their entire world. We will eventually get the sorrow of losing one's world for humanity, I think, since the Heralds are set to be flashback characters in the back five plus there is the Silence Divine.

We saw what their society was like at the brink of extinction but not how they were before Alethi contact. We do really need Eshonai to tell her story rather than Venli because she is a much more empathetic character. I remember reading the chapter in Oathbringer where Dalinar tries to negotiate with Venli, and feeling frustrated that with how she was acting before being horrified at the fact that I'm basically asking her to forgive generations of war where her entire race was systematically wiped out by the people they had provided succor to, their spren and even their gods chose to side with the interlopers.

Oh, we know, yes but there is still a disconnect between knowing and understanding, and I think Eshonai will be better, narratively, to bridge that gap. Eshonai's curiosity would be a good foil to Venli's bitterness, I think, as per Brandon Sanderson's original plans.

While I agree that Venli would have interesting stories to tell, with her researching on the Forms of Power, meeting Ulim the Voidspren and knowingly bringing the True Desolation, tricking her sister and sabotaging peace attempts but these things can easily be told from her perspective as she thinks back to them. It will add to an interesting story, sure, but not an especially enriching one. What really made the Stormlight Archives special to me was the moral complexity of the situation, expanded upon in each of the books, not the magical technicalities (though those are pretty awesome too, especially since they are literally bound to the former). Venli, I feel, is really only good as a flashback character for the magical side of things. She wouldn't be bad for building up the story of the Listener people but she would end up furthering her own story more than her people's. That's where Eshonai's empathy would be more enjoyable for me.

The questions that Venli can answer can still be answered by her, in the present. Eshonai, however, is gone and we can only get that part of the story from the flashbacks.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Honorless

[Duke of Lizards]

I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere (some update from Brandon) that the flashbacks are from BOTH Eshonai AND Venli.  This was very recent, but I cannot remember where I saw it.  I'll try to find it.  

[Aon Tia]

21 minutes ago, Duke of Lizards said:

I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere (some update from Brandon) that the flashbacks are from BOTH Eshonai AND Venli.  This was very recent, but I cannot remember where I saw it.  I'll try to find it.  

Brandon tweeted confirming that both the flashbacks are going to be there. 

which i think is the best possible solution!

[Honorless]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

thank you! thank you! thank you! 

[Aon Tia]

13 minutes ago, Honorless said:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

thank you! thank you! thank you! 

you are my friend welcome