Confused about Kelsier and Ruin

[The Night Watcher]

So I keep hearing people say Kelsier is a cognitive shadow. I am mildly familiar with this term; I've heard it in reference to Hoid and Vivenna. But if he isn't totally dead, then what was that conversation with Spook about in HoA? The wiki says that it was Ruin playing as Kelsier, which makes sense because he was so insistent about revenge, but I never actually heard that from a person who's read the books. Can someone give clarity?

[Ethan_sedai]

Have you read Mistborn Secret History?

[The Night Watcher]

2 minutes ago, Ethan_Sedai said:

Have you read Mistborn Secret History?

I have not. *Intrigued whisper* tell me more.

[Ethan_sedai]

I suggest that you read mistborn era 2 first, and then read Secret History. However, you can read Secret History first if you want.

You can find Secret History in Arcanum Unbounded, and that should help answer most of your questions.

[The Night Watcher]

Oh boy. More Mistborn? With secret in the title? You don't know how happy you've made me.

[+Invocation]

Just now, The Night Watcher said:

Oh boy. More Mistborn? With secret in the title? You don't know how happy you've made me.

You think you're happy now? Wait until you read it. Secret History is great, but also you should really read Era 2 first, if you haven't already. It'll be even better.

[Karger]

32 minutes ago, Invocation said:

You think you're happy now? Wait until you read it. Secret History is great, but also you should really read Era 2 first, if you haven't already. It'll be even better.

Why read era 2 first?

[+Invocation]

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

Why read era 2 first?

The payoff. You know what I'm talking about.

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Invocation said:

The payoff. You know what I'm talking about.

It works either way realy.  Also without reading Secret History it does not make a lot of sense.  Also also a careful reading of Shadows of Self will spoil that ending anyway.

[+Invocation]

Just now, Karger said:

It works either way realy.  Also without reading Secret History it does not make a lot of sense.  Also also a careful reading of Shadows of Self will spoil that ending anyway.

The point of it is to not have made a lot of sense. It's to make you be shocked. And yes, potentially a close reading would. 

Still worth it for the payoff. I'd have read Era 2 first if BoM had released in time.

[The Night Watcher]

You make a compelling case. I never read the second series because I have a thing against the gunpowder era, but if it'll have that much of an impact...

[Karger]

17 minutes ago, The Night Watcher said:

You make a compelling case. I never read the second series because I have a thing against the gunpowder era, but if it'll have that much of an impact...

The gunpowder era can be a bit jarring but it is done quite well.  It makes sense that fantasy worlds advance culturally and technologically.  To enjoy it you have to let go of some assumptions about what fantasy "should" be.  I think that alone makes the experience worthwhile.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Karger

[Weltall]

Yeah, and if you plan on reading the later Mistborn Eras as they're written you're going to want to know about the intermediate step too, since I can only imagine how jarring a transition from Era 1 to the 1980's aesthetic we're supposed to get in Era 3 would be...

Karger pretty much nailed it. Reading a couple of other books in between HoA and Alloy of Law can help a lot with the transition. It actually works really well, you just need to manage your expectations.

[Kaladin-Stormblessed]

3 hours ago, The Night Watcher said:

You make a compelling case. I never read the second series because I have a thing against the gunpowder era, but if it'll have that much of an impact...

I use to be the same. I have always preferred the medieval era fantasy books more to the modern era fantasy books. However I do recommend Mistborn Era 2. It gives you this nostalgic feel and also you get to see how many of your favourite characters from era 1 were remembered. I am sure that you will find that pretty interesting.

As for reading Secret History before/after Era 2. I do believe that for a better payoff, Era 2 should be read first and then Secret History. However if you are looking for better understanding, it is better to read Secret History first, followed by Era 2

[YmTheCobbler]

13 hours ago, The Night Watcher said:

You make a compelling case. I never read the second series because I have a thing against the gunpowder era, but if it'll have that much of an impact...

BROOOOOOOOSKIIIIIII. YOU HAVE TO READ THE SECOND SERIES!

[YmTheCobbler]

9 hours ago, Kaladin-Stormblessed said:

I use to be the same. I have always preferred the medieval era fantasy books more to the modern era fantasy books. However I do recommend Mistborn Era 2. It gives you this nostalgic feel and also you get to see how many of your favourite characters from era 1 were remembered. I am sure that you will find that pretty interesting.

As for reading Secret History before/after Era 2. I do believe that for a better payoff, Era 2 should be read first and then Secret History. However if you are looking for better understanding, it is better to read Secret History first, followed by Era 2

I have similar thoughts. I prefer to read medieval fantasy books, but after reading Era 1 I just had to see how the rest of everything played out. Plus it is brandon sanderson, so it has to be good.

[Rushu42]

@YmTheCobbler, try to avoid double posting if you can. The mods don't like it.

10 hours ago, Kaladin-Stormblessed said:

I use to be the same. I have always preferred the medieval era fantasy books more to the modern era fantasy books. However I do recommend Mistborn Era 2. It gives you this nostalgic feel and also you get to see how many of your favourite characters from era 1 were remembered. I am sure that you will find that pretty interesting.

As for reading Secret History before/after Era 2. I do believe that for a better payoff, Era 2 should be read first and then Secret History. However if you are looking for better understanding, it is better to read Secret History first, followed by Era 2

I had hesitations as well when I heard that Era 2 had guns and electricity. However, I'd say that it's a really nice continuation of the first Era, and is a cool glimpse of how fantasy worlds evolve. 

I read Secret History before Era 2, and I think that was the right choice. Obviously it's up to you, but there's some stuff in Era 2 that makes more sense if you've read Secret History. Everyone's reading preference is different, though, 

[+robardin]

15 hours ago, The Night Watcher said:

So I keep hearing people say Kelsier is a cognitive shadow. I am mildly familiar with this term; I've heard it in reference to Hoid and Vivenna. But if he isn't totally dead, then what was that conversation with Spook about in HoA? The wiki says that it was Ruin playing as Kelsier, which makes sense because he was so insistent about revenge, but I never actually heard that from a person who's read the books. Can someone give clarity?

The shortest answer possible, that is based solely on the material in Hero of Ages (and its annotations from Brandon, which you can read for free on his website), is that for the most part, what Spook interacted with in Urteau was Ruin posing as Kelsier in order to manipulate Spook. All except for the small voice Spook hears after he removed the hemalurgic spike for pewter, without which Ruin could not appear to him, and where it's evident that wherever/whatever the Shadow of Kelsier is, it can hear Spook's inner dialog - and in that moment, respond to it.

Kelsier had left a note mentioning everyone else in his hand-picked crew, but not him. Poor, useless Spook, who didn't fit in... I named you, Spook. You were my friend. Isn't that enough?

That's something Ruin would never, could never say to him.

And of course, Sazed's note to Spook at the end, noting that in addition to healing Spook from his burns and the damage he'd done to his body by constantly flaring tin, he'd made him Mistborn - at Kelsier's request, as a kind of "parting gift from him". So obviously, Kelsier was around to request something of Sazed vis-a-vis Spook, after his Double Ascension. Which also implies he was around somewhere, somehow, after the Lord Ruler killed him in the Square of the Survivor.

As others have noted, the further answers are found in Mistborn: Secret History. It shouldn't be a spoiler to tell you that that novella is from Kelsier's POV, covering the events between his death and Sazed's double Ascension, and a little extra.

I would concur that reading the Era 2 books (as published so far - Alloy of Law, Shadows of Self, and The Bands of Mourning) before "Secret History" would yield the best payoff, as reading works in published order typically would. (Though if I recall correctly, "Secret History" was actually released at the exact same time as "Bands of Mourning".) Otherwise you'll get an end scene reveal in "The Bands of Mourning" that won't be a surprise; you'll trade the "OMG NOW I GET IT!!" reaction for a milder, "Ha ha, now he [the POV character] gets it!".

[Spoilered comment for The Bands of Mourning:]

Spoiler

Which surprise ending might already be spoiled by this whole discussion, other threads in the Mistborn forum, or the Coppermind Wikia that the OP may have seen that equate Kelsier with the Sovereign. Oh well.

 

[The Night Watcher]

Woah. Was not expecting so many people to agree with my preference for medieval ages. Most of my friends prefer more modern era literature, but I've always found that it dulls the splendor a bit. I mean, I just can't imagine allomancy being nearly so cool when people can out-drive you on your pewter-drag or use a gun instead of a coinshot. 

[Kaladin-Stormblessed]

9 hours ago, The Night Watcher said:

Woah. Was not expecting so many people to agree with my preference for medieval ages. Most of my friends prefer more modern era literature, but I've always found that it dulls the splendor a bit. I mean, I just can't imagine allomancy being nearly so cool when people can out-drive you on your pewter-drag or use a gun instead of a coinshot. 

The books are set in pre-industrial/industrial-ish age. So I would say give the books a try, a lot of your concerns are addressed in the Brandon Sanderson's style of writing the story. I can assure you that you will not be disappointed. And the only non spoiler-ish manner in which I can tell you more is by saying that there are still a whole bunch of new things regarding the Mistborn world that you will be missing out on if you don't read the books

[Scion of the Mists]

10 hours ago, The Night Watcher said:

Woah. Was not expecting so many people to agree with my preference for medieval ages. Most of my friends prefer more modern era literature, but I've always found that it dulls the splendor a bit. I mean, I just can't imagine allomancy being nearly so cool when people can out-drive you on your pewter-drag or use a gun instead of a coinshot. 

The default setting for fantasy is medieval-ish era, so that's probably why people feel that way.  

However, wild west Mistborn is actually really awesome.  Imagine what happens if you are both a Coinshot and a gunslinger.  And there's metal everywhere to Push off of.  Plus, Era 2 explores a number of new metals.  

[not an Evil Librarian]

On 8/27/2019 at 7:46 AM, Scion of the Mists said:

The default setting for fantasy is medieval-ish era, so that's probably why people feel that way.  

However, wild west Mistborn is actually really awesome.  Imagine what happens if you are both a Coinshot and a gunslinger.  And there's metal everywhere to Push off of.  Plus, Era 2 explores a number of new metals.  

I agree. Scadrian magic systems (specifically allowmancy) work better in this setting.

[Hoidwillsaveus]

I'm right with the rest of them on this one I hated gunpowder fantasy until I read era 2

[Karger]

On 8/26/2019 at 10:57 PM, The Night Watcher said:

Woah. Was not expecting so many people to agree with my preference for medieval ages. Most of my friends prefer more modern era literature, but I've always found that it dulls the splendor a bit. I mean, I just can't imagine allomancy being nearly so cool when people can out-drive you on your pewter-drag or use a gun instead of a coinshot. 

Medieval is generally preferred by inferior writers who prefer to put magic in to do things that tec can already do.  There is also an expectation drive that I previously mentioned.

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 8/26/2019 at 11:48 AM, robardin said:

The shortest answer possible, that is based solely on the material in Hero of Ages (and its annotations from Brandon, which you can read for free on his website), is that for the most part, what Spook interacted with in Urteau was Ruin posing as Kelsier in order to manipulate Spook. All except for the small voice Spook hears after he removed the hemalurgic spike for pewter, without which Ruin could not appear to him, and where it's evident that wherever/whatever the Shadow of Kelsier is, it can hear Spook's inner dialog - and in that moment, respond to it.

Kelsier had left a note mentioning everyone else in his hand-picked crew, but not him. Poor, useless Spook, who didn't fit in... I named you, Spook. You were my friend. Isn't that enough?

That's something Ruin would never, could never say to him.

And of course, Sazed's note to Spook at the end, noting that in addition to healing Spook from his burns and the damage he'd done to his body by constantly flaring tin, he'd made him Mistborn - at Kelsier's request, as a kind of "parting gift from him". So obviously, Kelsier was around to request something of Sazed vis-a-vis Spook, after his Double Ascension. Which also implies he was around somewhere, somehow, after the Lord Ruler killed him in the Square of the Survivor.

As others have noted, the further answers are found in Mistborn: Secret History. It shouldn't be a spoiler to tell you that that novella is from Kelsier's POV, covering the events between his death and Sazed's double Ascension, and a little extra.

I would concur that reading the Era 2 books (as published so far - Alloy of Law, Shadows of Self, and The Bands of Mourning) before "Secret History" would yield the best payoff, as reading works in published order typically would. (Though if I recall correctly, "Secret History" was actually released at the exact same time as "Bands of Mourning".) Otherwise you'll get an end scene reveal in "The Bands of Mourning" that won't be a surprise; you'll trade the "OMG NOW I GET IT!!" reaction for a milder, "Ha ha, now he [the POV character] gets it!".

[Spoilered comment for The Bands of Mourning:]

  Hide contents

Which surprise ending might already be spoiled by this whole discussion, other threads in the Mistborn forum, or the Coppermind Wikia that the OP may have seen that equate Kelsier with the Sovereign. Oh well.

 

My pay off came about halfway through BoM. I knew it couldn’t be the person the characters thought it was, so it was a matter of figuring out who it could be. When I knew, I threw down my kindle and jumped around shrieking my head off.