Popular Post +Extesian Posted August 8, 2019 Popular Post Report Share Posted August 8, 2019 (edited) An often forgotten use of Awakening is to forget. The Shardcast discussed this on the Five Scholars episode but the confusion inspired me to post my theory on this. Quote As they reached the mansions, Vasher paused on the street, setting the girl down. “Child,” he said. “I’m going to say some words to you. I want you to repeat them. Repeat them, and mean them.” The girl regarded him absently, nodding slightly. He glanced at Vivenna. “Back away.” She opened her mouth to object, but thought better of it. She stepped back out of earshot. Fortunately, Vasher was near a lit streetlamp, so she could see him well. He spoke to the little girl, and she spoke back to him. After opening the cage, Vivenna had taken the Breath back from the thread. She hadn’t stowed it somewhere else. And, with the extra awareness she had, she thought she saw something. The girl’s BioChromatic aura—the normal one that all people had—flickered just slightly. It was faint. Yet with the First Heightening, Vivenna could have sworn she saw it. ... She doesn’t remember, Vivenna realized. Doesn’t remember where she’s been … probably doesn’t remember anything of the entire experience. Quote “That man saw and did terrible things,” Denth said. “I’ve tried, Vasher. I’ve tried going back. But the darkness … it’s inside. I can’t escape it. My laughter has an edge to it. I can’t forget.” “I can make you,” Vasher said. “I know the Commands.” Denth froze. “I promise,” Vasher said. “I will take it all from you, if you wish.” The commonly assumed answer is a type of self awakening that creates a copied portion of the soul with Breath, that overlays on the real soul (like Forgery) and effectively excludes that memory. Well at least that was my previous theory and I think others. Go with it if you will. But as always I like the out-of-the-box ideas. We know that Awakening is unusual in that it can be powered by any investiture. (Relevant part in italics) Quote Ilkhan2016 Breath and Stormlight are both forms of Investiture. AFAIK you can power any of the magic systems from any form of Investiture. Zahel is on Roshar, I believe, primarily due to how easy Investiture (Stormlight) is to come across. AFAIK the form of Investiture doesn't change anything about the abilities. For example, Szeth was sucked out of Stormlight when he drew Nightblood; and Azure used Stormlight to Awaken in Shadesmar. /u/mistborn is that right? Brandon Sanderson A lot of this depends on the Investiture and the magic in question. Azure was legit using Breaths, for example--ones she'd brought with her. But Szeth was able to feed Stormlight to Nightblood, much as Vasher uses Stormlight to keep himself alive. To Awaken with Stormlight, the easiest thing to do would be to first change Stormlight into Breaths--something that Azure doesn't know how to do. (Admittedly, Hoid doesn't either, so it's not like it's a simple thing to achieve.) You could also theoretically use some magical (or mechanical) means to power your Awakening with a different form of Investiture. Extesian This is very interesting. Is it possible then in the Cosmere for the 'intent' (spin or however described) of Investiture to be changed? And I mean within reasonable limits (not the powers of six shards or any of that). Can a Shard effectively grow in power in a place (e.g. toward an avatar) through another Shard's Investiture being changed (not just corrupted)? Or is it just making one type ('intent' - you should canonize a word for this :D) of Investiture mimic the properties of another? Brandon Sanderson Most of the ways of accomplishing what you're talking about would involve either 1) fooling/overwriting your spiritual makeup somehow. (This is what Hemalurgy does, for example.) 2) Refining the power somehow into a more pure form. But there are a lot of variables. The way magic from Nalthis works, for example, the system is just looking for any available Investiture to power itself--and so basically anything will do, regardless of the source. This includes consuming your own soul, in some cases... You'll see terminology coming along eventually that facilitates talking about all of this. I'm not yet decided on some of it. Celestial_Blu3 How many Breaths does [Azure] have by her final appearance in OB? Brandon Sanderson That's a RAFO, I'm afraid. General Reddit 2019 (April 25, 2019) We also know this from Vasher keeping his Divine Breath secured with Stormlight. You may already see where I'm going. It will use any investiture, including your own soul. So I propose that the Command to forget is simply a Command that makes the awakening draw on the investiture that makes up that part of the spiritweb that contains that memory, as fuel. What the Awakening achieves is irrelevant. What's relevant is that you no longer have that memory because the investiture that comprised it is eaten. Kind of like...you guessed it...hemalurgy. Well Quote Steeldancer Given a situation where they have perfect knowledge of Hemalurgy--everything is known. Is it possible they could use a Shard-scalpel and spike to carefully... Brandon Sanderson To excise without killing somebody? The real damage is to the soul... Steeldancer I'm imagining taking out toxic sort of things. Brandon Sanderson You've seen Vasher do something similar, so it's not off books that that's possible. Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018) And in case you wonder how memories could be investiture, a Keeper does just that, converts memories into investiture to put into a metalmind. TLDR Awakening can feed on any investiture so the command to awaken, like excising part of the spiritweb like hemalurgy does, is a command that fuels itself with the investiture that the part of the spiritweb that stores that memory is made from. Footnote If memories are cognitive not spritual, my backup argument is that even if they're cognitive the cognitive aspect is for now made of investiture so it would be that instead of using the investiture in the spirit web as fuel you use the investiture that comprises that part of the cognitive aspect that forms the memory. Either way you're removing the memory by removing the investiture Edited August 9, 2019 by Extesian Footnote 21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted August 8, 2019 Report Share Posted August 8, 2019 We agree. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted August 8, 2019 Report Share Posted August 8, 2019 Basically yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted August 9, 2019 Report Share Posted August 9, 2019 I'm down for this theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted August 9, 2019 Report Share Posted August 9, 2019 Quote “That man saw and did terrible things,” Denth said. “I’ve tried, Vasher. I’ve tried going back. But the darkness … it’s inside. I can’t escape it. My laughter has an edge to it. I can’t forget.” “I can make you,” Vasher said. “I know the Commands.” Denth froze. “I promise,” Vasher said. “I will take it all from you, if you wish.” I just have to go offtopic to remark how similar this situation is to dalinar. and now i weep for what denth could have been 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian Posted August 10, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2019 (edited) 22 hours ago, king of nowhere said: I just have to go offtopic to remark how similar this situation is to dalinar. and now i weep for what denth could have been He really could've. It was a fascinating form of honor and telling of his original character that he simply didn't think he deserved it. Now we only need Vasher to teach Ash, heal her guilt Though does make me wonder why vasher, who killed his wife to stop knowledge of awakened sapient blades getting out only to (already or soon) find out Vivenna has one that isn't a Nightmare, doesn't remove his memory of killing her. Maybe because he would have to remove all memory of her and doesnt want to. Edited August 10, 2019 by Extesian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rushu42 Posted August 10, 2019 Report Share Posted August 10, 2019 On 8/8/2019 at 7:00 PM, Extesian said: An often forgotten use of Awakening is to forget. The Shardcast discussed this on the Five Scholars episode but the confusion inspired me to post my theory on this. The commonly assumed answer is a type of self awakening that creates a copied portion of the soul with Breath, that overlays on the real soul (like Forgery) and effectively excludes that memory. Well at least that was my previous theory and I think others. Go with it if you will. But as always I like the out-of-the-box ideas. We know that Awakening is unusual in that it can be powered by any investiture. (Relevant part in italics) We also know this from Vasher keeping his Divine Breath secured with Stormlight. You may already see where I'm going. It will use any investiture, including your own soul. So I propose that the Command to forget is simply a Command that makes the awakening draw on the investiture that makes up that part of the spiritweb that contains that memory, as fuel. What the Awakening achieves is irrelevant. What's relevant is that you no longer have that memory because the investiture that comprised it is eaten. Kind of like...you guessed it...hemalurgy. Well And in case you wonder how memories could be investiture, a Keeper does just that, converts memories into investiture to put into a metalmind. TLDR Awakening can feed on any investiture so the command to awaken, like excising part of the spiritweb like hemalurgy does, is a command that fuels itself with the investiture that the part of the spiritweb that stores that memory is made from. Footnote If memories are cognitive not spritual, my backup argument is that even if they're cognitive the cognitive aspect is for now made of investiture so it would be that instead of using the investiture in the spirit web as fuel you use the investiture that comprises that part of the cognitive aspect that forms the memory. Either way you're removing the memory by removing the investiture I think that this is a great theory. It's reinforced by the fact that the Command required to excise a bit of someone's spiritweb in such a way must be incredibly complex. The quote with Denth implies that he himself doesn't know them, which would make sense if taken with this theory. In fact, I think it's quite possible that Vasher is either one of the best or the very best Awakener in the Cosmere, which could mean that he's the only one who knows the Commands. It also makes me wonder if that's similar to how Cultivation removed Dalinar's memories...but that's a bit of a stretch. Anyway, I love this idea! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted August 12, 2019 Report Share Posted August 12, 2019 Seems reasonable. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auger Posted August 27, 2019 Report Share Posted August 27, 2019 (edited) I wonder if doing this actually damages the spirit web. Edited August 27, 2019 by Auger pressed enter too fast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted November 22, 2019 Report Share Posted November 22, 2019 That sounds like a very dangerous Command... But can Endowment's system really be utilized without giving Breath? Seems strange... it did consume colour though. I wonder if Vasher asking permission might've been Realmatically significant here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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