ZenBossanova

Industrial Fabrial Revolution

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2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

The fabrial revolution I think would revolutionize Roshar. Gravitation fabrials alone would have huge ramifications. 

I personally am more existed for progression fabrails.  Infinite food and healing.

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On 8/6/2019 at 9:50 AM, Pathfinder said:

WoB says Scadrial should not have their level of knowledge of metallurgy at their time period, yet they do due to the dependence on metal.

It's a pretty huge difference in degree though. Era 1 Scadrian metallurgy is maybe a couple of decades ahead of their base technology. It looks much more primitive since they don't have gunpowder, but most of their basic infrastructure is early 19th centuryish, and their metallurgy is ... maybe 1840s era or thereabouts?

Synthetic gemstones on Roshar would be putting fairly high 19th century chemistry into an otherwise medieval technology. The level of understanding of chemistry needed would imply a ton of other technologies which we don't see.

On 8/6/2019 at 9:50 AM, Pathfinder said:

I posted earlier that via WoB, size of the gemheart is related to the size of the shelled beast. So in order to get the gemstones the size posited, you would need something the size of a chasmfiend

 

But you don't need gemstones that size for this purpose. From the pictures in Navani's notebook modern fabrials often have quite small gemstones.

On 8/6/2019 at 9:50 AM, Pathfinder said:

 Using Karger's logic as to why synthetic gemstones can't be a thing, if it was possible to breed chull-like beasts to produce larger and larger gemhearts, then why haven't they? They have everything they need already. Why isn't it a thing? Surely breeding chull like beasts for gemhearts the size of your head would be far more lucrative

 

Well - not really. If the gemheart size is related to animal size, then breeding for larger gemhearts means larger overall animals, which means more food and probably means longer maturation times. You would get larger gems, but fewer of them.

And you couldn't get to chasmfiend size just by selective breeding anyway, they need special spren bonds to survive at all at that size. Plus how do you control something that size?

On 8/6/2019 at 9:50 AM, Pathfinder said:

The larger the gemstone, the more stormlight it can use, the greater the effect of the fabrial. So the bigger fabrial machines and etc are going to need large gemstones.

Maybe, but there are fabrial machines that include multiple gemstones (like Navani's emotion bracelet). Does the size of individual gemstones matter, or is it just the total mass / Stormlight capacity of all the gemstones available?

(Individual gemstone size does matter for Soulcasting, which is why chasmfiends' emerald gemhearts are so valuable. But Soulcaster "fabrials" don't actually appear to work on the same principles as modern, artifabrian-made fabrials.)

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8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Synthetic gemstones on Roshar would be putting fairly high 19th century chemistry into an otherwise medieval technology. The level of understanding of chemistry needed would imply a ton of other technologies which we don't see.

I think you are focusing too much on Earth analogues. Roshar has antisceptic and washing hands, which was not a thing till the 19th century. Roshar has anesthesia (daze water which is clearly ether Way of Kings page 583) which wasn't introduced/used till the 19th century (yes ether was around for a long time, but it was not employed in surgery till then. Prior to its introduction, people were tied down, and given opium and the like, which did nothing to alleviate pain). Worldbuilding is when you put something into a world, and go "what if?". Roshar now has access to climate control (indoor heating), "electric" elevators, food production, and waste disposal that even we do not have access to. So I believe it is reductionist to say "they wouldn't have that because we didn't have that" when we see there are a whole lot of things they have that we don't even have today. It is disregarding a magic system that pervades the entire planet fueled by a natural resource that does not exist on our planet. It is disregarding the continual desolations that destroyed technology yet some information got carried over through the Heralds. Can it be argued that medicine was passed down because of its immediate importance? Sure! But if we are reasoning that the reason forging was not passed on in favor of soulcasting, then why not progression and medicine? Yet medicine persisted. We don't know what was passed down by the heralds. Now true that does not mean anything is possible, but based on what I have read and seen, I do not think it excludes the possibility of them developing in that direction. You disagree, and I respect that, but I still feel my arguments are valid. 

8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

But you don't need gemstones that size for this purpose. From the pictures in Navani's notebook modern fabrials often have quite small gemstones.

The way fabrials work is the type of gemstone determines the effect. The cut determines the stormlight efficacy, and the size determines the amount of stormlight it can hold and be used at a time. Also the bigger it is, the less likely to shatter. The fabrial in Navani's notebook was showing a fabrial with multiple types of gemstones to accomplish a number of tasks. If she wanted that fabrial to make lights based off of emotions that cause a spotlight into the sky, she will need larger gemstones. Adolin remarks on this on Way of Kings page 221. That the more "spectacular" fabrials need large gemstones to function. The less likely to shatter on page 224. I believe there are more clear quotes, but I have not the time to pull them up at the moment, so till I do, here is a reference from the wiki for now till I pull those up

https://stormlightarchive.fandom.com/wiki/Gemstone

8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Well - not really. If the gemheart size is related to animal size, then breeding for larger gemhearts means larger overall animals, which means more food and probably means longer maturation times. You would get larger gems, but fewer of them.

And given the size of a Chasmfiends gemheart is the size of a human head, and the size of a chasmfiend when compared to a human, I do not think breeding something that size is feasible. But that is my own opinion

8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

And you couldn't get to chasmfiend size just by selective breeding anyway, they need special spren bonds to survive at all at that size. Plus how do you control something that size?

Both arguments I have made, but have been told is not a problem. So I suggest you direct that towards Karger. 

8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Maybe, but there are fabrial machines that include multiple gemstones (like Navani's emotion bracelet). Does the size of individual gemstones matter, or is it just the total mass / Stormlight capacity of all the gemstones available?

Answered this earlier in this post. 

8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

(Individual gemstone size does matter for Soulcasting, which is why chasmfiends' emerald gemhearts are so valuable. But Soulcaster "fabrials" don't actually appear to work on the same principles as modern, artifabrian-made fabrials.)

The heating fabrial has a large gemstone. 

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10 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Both arguments I have made, but have been told is not a problem. So I suggest you direct that towards Karger. 

Did I ever suggest that you could make chasmfiend sized animals via selective breading?  I belive my proposition was breading chasmfiend themselves.

12 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The heating fabrial has a large gemstone. 

One of the most important things that happens as technology develops is the capacity to do more with less.  The first steam engine was technically made in ancient Greece but it was so inefficient that no one bothered to think about the implications and just kept using slaves.

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2 minutes ago, Karger said:

Did I ever suggest that you could make chasmfiend sized animals via selective breading?  I belive my proposition was breading chasmfiend themselves.

@cometaryorbit wrote:

"Plus how do you control something that size?"

Which is one of the arguments I had earlier in this thread, and you responded that you would not put them in captivity. You would "free range" them, using windrunners to keep track of them. Which I still do not personally see, but as cometaryorbit is the one that brought it up again, please continue that discussion with him or her as he or she is the one that brought it up again. 

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

One of the most important things that happens as technology develops is the capacity to do more with less.  The first steam engine was technically made in ancient Greece but it was so inefficient that no one bothered to think about the implications and just kept using slaves.

That has to do with the cut of the gemstones. The more perfect the cut, the less stormlight is lost, the more efficient the power usage. Size has to do with power storage and output. The larger the fabrial, or more power required to do something, the larger the gemstone required. 

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On 8/9/2019 at 9:54 AM, Pathfinder said:

@cometaryorbit wrote:

"Plus how do you control something that size?"Which is one of the arguments I had earlier in this thread, and you responded that you would not put them in captivity. You would "free range" them, using windrunners to keep track of them. Which I still do not personally see, but as cometaryorbit is the one that brought it up again, please continue that discussion with him or her as he or she is the one that brought it up again. 

Somewhat managed herding of animals that remain wild is... not completely impossible, Native Americans appear to have done something of the sort with bison, using fire to expand their habitat (good grazing land) and to corral them into ambushes/off cliffs etc. But chasmfiends are not at all well suited for it, they aren't likely to run away from anything and their habitat doesn't seem nearly as flammable as Earth grasslands. And they're not herd animals.

On 8/9/2019 at 9:33 AM, Pathfinder said:


I think you are focusing too much on Earth analogues. Roshar has antisceptic and washing hands, which was not a thing till the 19th century. Roshar has anesthesia (daze water which is clearly ether Way of Kings page 583) which wasn't introduced/used till the 19th century

They have those things, but there is no understanding of the principles behind them - rotspren being visible has allowed them to figure out what things prevent infection, which is really good for medicine, but it's a trial and error thing. They don't understand the principles so they can't do the kind of extrapolation from them that would be needed to figure out things like synthetic gemstones (or explosives, or artificial fertilizers ...)

 

On 8/9/2019 at 9:33 AM, Pathfinder said:

Roshar now has access to climate control (indoor heating), "electric" elevators, food production, and waste disposal that even we do not have access to. So I believe it is reductionist to say "they wouldn't have that because we didn't have that" when we see there are a whole lot of things they have that we don't even have today. It is disregarding a magic system that pervades the entire planet fueled by a natural resource that does not exist on our planet.

 

I don't think the current Rosharans understand how the Urithiru fabrial-technology works. Navani's floating platform from WOR is kind of similar to the Urithiru elevators, but it doesn't appear to be based on the same principles. The food production via Soulcasters is the rote use of ancient relics -- they have no understanding of the principles. Anyway these are magical principles that won't help with things like chemistry (and I'm pretty sure you can't Soulcast Polestones).

That's the thing about Roshar, it has a lot of very powerful things (Shardblades, Shardplate, Soulcaster fabrials) and advanced knowledge (antiseptics etc) in an otherwise very technologically limited society. Military technology is middle medieval at best (crossbows are rare, no gunpowder, "plate and mail" is the best sub-Shardplate armor technology rather than Renaissance full plate) but with vastly better logistics and communication due to Soulcasters and spanreeds.

But there isn't the level of deeper understanding of principles that would allow extrapolation. The artifabrians are having the beginning of a scientific revolution though. But this still seems limited to the 'magic tech' of fabrials and may not be expanding into botany, zoology, physics, chemistry etc.

 

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On 8/11/2019 at 5:00 AM, cometaryorbit said:

Somewhat managed herding of animals that remain wild is... not completely impossible, Native Americans appear to have done something of the sort with bison, using fire to expand their habitat (good grazing land) and to corral them into ambushes/off cliffs etc. But chasmfiends are not at all well suited for it, they aren't likely to run away from anything and their habitat doesn't seem nearly as flammable as Earth grasslands. And they're not herd animals.

So I tagged @Karger for you as this was Karger's argument, so I figured you would want to discuss this with Karger, and not me. 

On 8/11/2019 at 5:00 AM, cometaryorbit said:

They have those things, but there is no understanding of the principles behind them - rotspren being visible has allowed them to figure out what things prevent infection, which is really good for medicine, but it's a trial and error thing. They don't understand the principles so they can't do the kind of extrapolation from them that would be needed to figure out things like synthetic gemstones (or explosives, or artificial fertilizers ...)

Actually the reason for that knowledge was as Lirin said "the wisdom of the heralds". So my point is, if information can be passed down via the heralds, and be maintained through the desolations, then why not some bits on other sciences? Taravangian's hospitals are quite advanced. I do not think basing the level of scientific knowledge on medicine on a backwater village when we have Kharbranth as an example is entirely accurate. 

On 8/11/2019 at 5:00 AM, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think the current Rosharans understand how the Urithiru fabrial-technology works. Navani's floating platform from WOR is kind of similar to the Urithiru elevators, but it doesn't appear to be based on the same principles. The food production via Soulcasters is the rote use of ancient relics -- they have no understanding of the principles. Anyway these are magical principles that won't help with things like chemistry (and I'm pretty sure you can't Soulcast Polestones).

Urithiru fabrial technology uses surges. Surges they now have access to via the knights radiant reborn. Surge fabrials we have seen being used by the heralds, two of which they now have in their custody which Navani can question for insights in fabrial tech. Navani has already drawn up plans for flying ships using gravitation. Actually you can soulcast polestones, just they won't work in soulcasters. Synthetic gemstones on the other hand do. I was not stating that they would create the gemstones with the soulcasters directly. Karger equated that. I stated that through use of the surges of adhesion and division, they could attain the necessary pressure and heat that may be beyond their technology to produce. Thereby enabling them to create gemstones earlier than they would normally coupled with their scientific focus on gemstones due to that resource pervading literally every single level of their lives. Also, I am not saying tomorrow they will go "synthetic gemstones of course!". My point is I could see research going in that direction, and that the research would go faster than in our world due to the need and prevalence of gemstones in their world. 

On 8/11/2019 at 5:00 AM, cometaryorbit said:

That's the thing about Roshar, it has a lot of very powerful things (Shardblades, Shardplate, Soulcaster fabrials) and advanced knowledge (antiseptics etc) in an otherwise very technologically limited society. Military technology is middle medieval at best (crossbows are rare, no gunpowder, "plate and mail" is the best sub-Shardplate armor technology rather than Renaissance full plate) but with vastly better logistics and communication due to Soulcasters and spanreeds.

But there isn't the level of deeper understanding of principles that would allow extrapolation. The artifabrians are having the beginning of a scientific revolution though. But this still seems limited to the 'magic tech' of fabrials and may not be expanding into botany, zoology, physics, chemistry etc.

 

And for all the reasons I gave above, I disagree. I think it is very plausible that research could branch in the direction of synthetic gemstones, and yield results. 

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I think Sebarial will help bring an industrial revolution, through more mundane means. He has already started. WoR Ch. 40:

Quote

 

"Rounded roofs," Shallan said. 

"My engineers say they repel the winds better." Sabarial said proudly. "Also, building with rounded corners and sides."  ...

"Already, I've set up twelve manfactories-textiles, shoes, ceramics, several mills. I control the glassblowers as well."  ...

"The others hunt quick income from gemhearts but what will they spend their money on? My textile mills will soon produce uniforms at a much cheaper price than they can be shipped in for, and my farmers will provide food far more varied than what is supplied through Soulcasting."

 

He's been making incremental progress in engineering and the organizing of labor. He's had a slight setback with the relocation to Urithiru, but I'm sure he'll figure things out. I expect the ideas he and his people are working on combined with Navani's work will lead to a big leap in technology in the back 5. 

I'm not saying late 1800's or 1900's tech but out of the middle/dark ages. 

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On 8/12/2019 at 9:39 AM, Pathfinder said:

So I tagged @Karger for you as this was Karger's argument, so I figured you would want to discuss this with Karger, and not me. 

Actually the reason for that knowledge was as Lirin said "the wisdom of the heralds". So my point is, if information can be passed down via the heralds, and be maintained through the desolations, then why not some bits on other sciences? Taravangian's hospitals are quite advanced. I do not think basing the level of scientific knowledge on medicine on a backwater village when we have Kharbranth as an example is entirely accurate. 

Urithiru fabrial technology uses surges. Surges they now have access to via the knights radiant reborn. Surge fabrials we have seen being used by the heralds, two of which they now have in their custody which Navani can question for insights in fabrial tech. Navani has already drawn up plans for flying ships using gravitation. Actually you can soulcast polestones, just they won't work in soulcasters. Synthetic gemstones on the other hand do. I was not stating that they would create the gemstones with the soulcasters directly. Karger equated that. I stated that through use of the surges of adhesion and division, they could attain the necessary pressure and heat that may be beyond their technology to produce. Thereby enabling them to create gemstones earlier than they would normally coupled with their scientific focus on gemstones due to that resource pervading literally every single level of their lives. Also, I am not saying tomorrow they will go "synthetic gemstones of course!". My point is I could see research going in that direction, and that the research would go faster than in our world due to the need and prevalence of gemstones in their world. 

And for all the reasons I gave above, I disagree. I think it is very plausible that research could branch in the direction of synthetic gemstones, and yield results. 

After following this whole discussion, I feel like people just got way too dug in on points that don't really mean much in the long run.

IMO - you are right that we don't know for sure everything that's going on in the world of Roshar and because of that and the fact that this is a fantasy novel where anything can happen based on what Brandon Sanderson wants to happen, they could invent synthetic gemstones.  I wouldn't be hugely surprised if it happens sometime in the next 7 SA books.  Certain societies can be well ahead of the curve of the rest of the world - for example China vs. the West and Middle East after the fall of the Western Roman Empire until the 1400-1500s to the point that they may have technology that seems like magic to other people.  So it's possible that Roshar could develop artificial gemstones without going through the same gradual steps and progress that happened on Earth just like the Chinese invented gunpowder or the Romans invented concrete well in advance of the rest of the world.

That said, I also think Karger is right that based on what we have seen on screen and general knowledge of how people make discoveries in science, it doesn't make sense that they actually would make that discovery unless they are told how to do it through the Heralds or some other external knowledge source.  What we see in the world just seems to be way too deficient in the relevant areas of technology.  To my knowledge, there has been no evidence on screen that they know how to use chemical processes to create synthetic substances of any kind.  If they don't know that they can make a synthetic version of a naturally occurring substance, that makes an even larger barrier.  I also don't think we should be sure that the Heralds themselves know enough chemistry that they could tell the people how to make artificial gemstones.  They might know, or they might have a magical means of knowing, but based on what we know about the Heralds the individual people who became the Heralds haven't been shown to have technology at the same level as when artificial gemstones were invented on Earth.  Another point is that I think if artificial gemstones were to be invented it would be a significant enough plot point that Sanderson would have started laying down breadcrumbs that people are working on it or something similar.  Then again, maybe not.  It could be a secret of one of the other nations that hasn't been on screen yet but will be revealed later on when things get desperate.

*shrug* Anyway, my point is this is just something we can't know until we know.  It seems unlikely they will invent it in the front 5 through normal scientific discovery based on what we have seen on screen is all I can say.

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1 hour ago, agrabes said:

After following this whole discussion, I feel like people just got way too dug in on points that don't really mean much in the long run.

IMO - you are right that we don't know for sure everything that's going on in the world of Roshar and because of that and the fact that this is a fantasy novel where anything can happen based on what Brandon Sanderson wants to happen, they could invent synthetic gemstones.  I wouldn't be hugely surprised if it happens sometime in the next 7 SA books.  Certain societies can be well ahead of the curve of the rest of the world - for example China vs. the West and Middle East after the fall of the Western Roman Empire until the 1400-1500s to the point that they may have technology that seems like magic to other people.  So it's possible that Roshar could develop artificial gemstones without going through the same gradual steps and progress that happened on Earth just like the Chinese invented gunpowder or the Romans invented concrete well in advance of the rest of the world.

That said, I also think Karger is right that based on what we have seen on screen and general knowledge of how people make discoveries in science, it doesn't make sense that they actually would make that discovery unless they are told how to do it through the Heralds or some other external knowledge source.  What we see in the world just seems to be way too deficient in the relevant areas of technology.  To my knowledge, there has been no evidence on screen that they know how to use chemical processes to create synthetic substances of any kind.  If they don't know that they can make a synthetic version of a naturally occurring substance, that makes an even larger barrier.  I also don't think we should be sure that the Heralds themselves know enough chemistry that they could tell the people how to make artificial gemstones.  They might know, or they might have a magical means of knowing, but based on what we know about the Heralds the individual people who became the Heralds haven't been shown to have technology at the same level as when artificial gemstones were invented on Earth.  Another point is that I think if artificial gemstones were to be invented it would be a significant enough plot point that Sanderson would have started laying down breadcrumbs that people are working on it or something similar.  Then again, maybe not.  It could be a secret of one of the other nations that hasn't been on screen yet but will be revealed later on when things get desperate.

*shrug* Anyway, my point is this is just something we can't know until we know.  It seems unlikely they will invent it in the front 5 through normal scientific discovery based on what we have seen on screen is all I can say.

Yeah, I mentioned earlier this was all conjecture. Fabrial revolution, breeding chasmfiends, breeding shelled beasts with larger gemhearts, researching synthetic gemstones. All theoretical. I would rather not beat a dead horse and go over my arguments again, so I will leave it at agree to disagree. 

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56 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Yeah, I mentioned earlier this was all conjecture. Fabrial revolution, breeding chasmfiends, breeding shelled beasts with larger gemhearts, researching synthetic gemstones. All theoretical. I would rather not beat a dead horse and go over my arguments again, so I will leave it at agree to disagree. 

:D

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As a PhD chemist, my impression of Rosharian chemistry knowledge is that it is fairly primitive, and there are a lot of fundamental concepts they need to work out (ie chemical bonding) before they can even understand what a gemstone is, much less how to make one.

Once they get that far, however, I think overcoming the engineering challenges will be much easier for them than it was for us - given surges like division and adhesion, there will be no need to develop further technology once they have the concepts in hand.

As an aside and point of general interest, one of my coworkers in graduate school grew a ruby in lab and had it cut into a gemstone to put on the ring he used to propose to his girlfriend. His proposal went very well, as you might expect. On Roshar he would no doubt be incredibly wealthy.

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7 minutes ago, Calyx said:

As a PhD chemist, my impression of Rosharian chemistry knowledge is that it is fairly primitive, and there are a lot of fundamental concepts they need to work out (ie chemical bonding) before they can even understand what a gemstone is, much less how to make one.

THANK YOU.

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16 hours ago, Calyx said:

As a PhD chemist, my impression of Rosharian chemistry knowledge is that it is fairly primitive, and there are a lot of fundamental concepts they need to work out (ie chemical bonding) before they can even understand what a gemstone is, much less how to make one.

Once they get that far, however, I think overcoming the engineering challenges will be much easier for them than it was for us - given surges like division and adhesion, there will be no need to develop further technology once they have the concepts in hand.

As an aside and point of general interest, one of my coworkers in graduate school grew a ruby in lab and had it cut into a gemstone to put on the ring he used to propose to his girlfriend. His proposal went very well, as you might expect. On Roshar he would no doubt be incredibly wealthy.

Congrats on your PhD and congrats to your coworker (Not being sarcastic. Genuinely congratulating you).

As to the rest of your response, I already responded to these points. I could always copy paste if you would like, but assuming you did already read them, then repeating them would accomplish nothing. So agree to disagree. To each their own. 

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OK, just throwing this out there, Singers have a gemheart in their ribs/sternum. I assume gemshearts don't rot. Archaeologists need to dig up all those old battle sites from the many Desolations, find those gemhearts. 

I know they aren't real big, but they are big enough for a radiant spren AND a voidspren to hangout in together when Timbre imprisons Venli's envoy spren inside her gemheart. 

There are, presumably, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of them buried under the crem. 

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On 8/14/2019 at 8:24 AM, Pathfinder said:

Congrats on your PhD and congrats to your coworker (Not being sarcastic. Genuinely congratulating you).

As to the rest of your response, I already responded to these points. I could always copy paste if you would like, but assuming you did already read them, then repeating them would accomplish nothing. So agree to disagree. To each their own. 

Thanks for congratulations, and I have read the pages of argument. Agreeing to disagree is fine with me.

Knowing how gemstones are grown, however, I have difficulty imagining it being discovered by accident and even more difficulty imagining it being done on purpose from their (presumably) low knowledge base. Despite this stance, however, I agree that once they know that gemstones can be created (and roughly how, i.e. temperature/pressure) all bets are off - some of those surges will be fantastic at replacing the processes used in our world.

So I guess my point is that I don't think brute force experimentation will be enough. Directed experiments based on underlying principles will be needed. This suggests significant scientific advancement, which though not outside the realm of possibility given the economic importance of the research, will likely take decades at a minimum. It seems like scientific theory already exists - certainly the ardents are at a minimum studying fabrials in a scientific manner - but in my opinion building up a basic chemistry knowledge base would still take quite a while. Without outside knowledge, I don't see synthetic gemstones being created on Roshar anytime soon. With continued investment in science, we could likely see it within the next century.

I do agree with the other points underlying an industrial revolution, however - a lot of things are going to need to be accomplished without much of the traditional manpower, and fabrials are already enjoying significant research investment.

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On 8/14/2019 at 0:16 PM, Child of Hodor said:

OK, just throwing this out there, Singers have a gemheart in their ribs/sternum. I assume gemshearts don't rot. Archaeologists need to dig up all those old battle sites from the many Desolations, find those gemhearts. 

I know they aren't real big, but they are big enough for a radiant spren AND a voidspren to hangout in together when Timbre imprisons Venli's envoy spren inside her gemheart. 

There are, presumably, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of them buried under the crem. 

Many gemstones are likely under the crem.  Mining on Roshar is a bit difficult however as crem tends to fill everything as you dig.  Additionally the entire ground is made of stone.  No soft stuff.

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Although I enjoyed the often barbed comments between the two viewpoints I believe that the synthetic gemstones could happen, as in they have the physical ability not the scientific no how. I know that you have already responded with these points @Pathfinder but I'm just adding my opinion to the mix. Although I do think that this should've been in a different forum (synthetic gemstones or something). But on the point of fabrial revolution I think that it is not only going to happen but that it has already in the process with the increased production of new fabrials and "half-shards" as well as the ability to study the new-old fabrials from the knights radiant. I think that the already increase will now skyrocket. Of course there might be a slight set back in the case of an apocalypse or something...

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21 hours ago, Calyx said:

Thanks for congratulations, and I have read the pages of argument. Agreeing to disagree is fine with me.

No problemo. 

21 hours ago, Calyx said:

Knowing how gemstones are grown, however, I have difficulty imagining it being discovered by accident and even more difficulty imagining it being done on purpose from their (presumably) low knowledge base. Despite this stance, however, I agree that once they know that gemstones can be created (and roughly how, i.e. temperature/pressure) all bets are off - some of those surges will be fantastic at replacing the processes used in our world.

And I do not think we know enough to presume that their level of knowledge is low, or will always be as such with the inclusion of the heralds, Urithiru, and radiant surges.  

21 hours ago, Calyx said:

So I guess my point is that I don't think brute force experimentation will be enough. Directed experiments based on underlying principles will be needed. This suggests significant scientific advancement, which though not outside the realm of possibility given the economic importance of the research, will likely take decades at a minimum. It seems like scientific theory already exists - certainly the ardents are at a minimum studying fabrials in a scientific manner - but in my opinion building up a basic chemistry knowledge base would still take quite a while. Without outside knowledge, I don't see synthetic gemstones being created on Roshar anytime soon. With continued investment in science, we could likely see it within the next century.

I do not think we have enough information to presume the level of knowledge regarding chemistry to preclude the possibility. I wish you luck with your theory. Happy to agree to disagree

21 hours ago, Calyx said:

I do agree with the other points underlying an industrial revolution, however - a lot of things are going to need to be accomplished without much of the traditional manpower, and fabrials are already enjoying significant research investment.

Definitely looking forward to seeing the magitech developed as Roshar moves forward

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On 8/16/2019 at 8:19 AM, Pathfinder said:

And I do not think we know enough to presume that their level of knowledge is low, or will always be as such with the inclusion of the heralds, Urithiru, and radiant surges.  

This is a really good point, as they do have potential access to several sources of knowledge that could really push things forward. They may learn a lot as they study Urithiru, particularly if there are more useful gemstone libraries. The heralds, though seemingly pretty far gone, may be able to help. And we know that there are already people from off-world on Roshar. It seems like Scadrial, in particular, has pretty advanced metallurgy which from a chemical perspective is in the same field as gemstone growth - perhaps all it would take to kick that off on Roshar is one friendly and educated Scadrian. 

I'm still of the opinion that they wouldn't be able to do it in a short time frame on their own, but you have convinced me that it is possible.

Edited by Calyx
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On 8/19/2019 at 11:48 AM, Calyx said:

This is a really good point, as they do have potential access to several sources of knowledge that could really push things forward. They may learn a lot as they study Urithiru, particularly if there are more useful gemstone libraries. The heralds, though seemingly pretty far gone, may be able to help. And we know that there are already people from off-world on Roshar. It seems like Scadrial, in particular, has pretty advanced metallurgy which from a chemical perspective is in the same field as gemstone growth - perhaps all it would take to kick that off on Roshar is one friendly and educated Scadrian. 

I'm still of the opinion that they wouldn't be able to do it in a short time frame on their own, but you have convinced me that it is possible.

Totally respect that. Thank you for understanding!

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Has any one discussed the Chasm Fiend in the room or did I just miss it? Gem hearts grow inside of things on Roshar... There is clearly a an in universe alternative to creating gems the way we would. It seems to me that on Roshar gems are more similar to a pearl in that they grow through a more biological/investment means than chemical/geological one. 

 

Am I off base or missing some thing here?

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1 hour ago, Suffot said:

Has any one discussed the Chasm Fiend in the room or did I just miss it? Gem hearts grow inside of things on Roshar... There is clearly a an in universe alternative to creating gems the way we would. It seems to me that on Roshar gems are more similar to a pearl in that they grow through a more biological/investment means than chemical/geological one. 

 

Am I off base or missing some thing here?

So this all came up across the span of the thread. I'll sum them up quickly below

1. The gemstones mined from the ground are from deceased greatshells ages ago. That is how they can have mining of gemstones, but no plate tectonics. 

2. Gemhearts do grow in other shelled beasts, but for gemhearts of great size for larger fabrials, the great shelled beasts seem to be the prime source (some have theorized that it is possible to breed smaller shelled beasts to grow larger gemhearts. I personally disagree, but their argument is mentioned in further detail earlier in the thread)

3. Brandon has confirmed that the killing of great shells on the shattered plains will have a similar fallout as whaling did on earth. We already know of a great shell people think is extinct. The lanceryn of aimia. Though via WoB, we found out that Larkin is their early form. So at least two exist (Nale, and Rysn)

 

So the reason for the debate was thinking of a way to maintain large gemstone production without making the source (greatshells) extinct. Three possibilities that came up were:

1. breeding smaller shelled beasts to produce larger gemhearts over generations

2. breeding chasmfiends via free ranging

3.research and develop synthetic gemstones. 

 

Hopefully that clarified things. 

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On 8/21/2019 at 0:00 AM, Pathfinder said:

So the reason for the debate was thinking of a way to maintain large gemstone production without making the source (greatshells) extinct. Three possibilities that came up were:

1. breeding smaller shelled beasts to produce larger gemhearts over generations

2. breeding chasmfiends via free ranging

3.research and develop synthetic gemstones. 

 

Hopefully that clarified things. 

4. Imports

5. However Yelig-Nar makes gemstone grow on his (her?) hosts

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On 7/31/2019 at 6:23 AM, Karger said:

Fabrails are a bit to expensive for the average Jo shmo.  Remember they consume gemstones fairly quickly and those gemstones are extremely valuable to soulcasters.

The biggest lack of labor will be the parhsmen and it's mostly the wealthy that owned them so they will be the first to need/want new technology and most will have enough money to put towards the use of Fabrials.

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