ZenBossanova

Industrial Fabrial Revolution

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One of the prime reasons for the Industrial Revolution in England, was the shortage of labor. The Black Plague had eliminated enough people that they needed to automate things. 

On Roshar, they have just lost a lot of manual labor. They are ripe for their own industrial Fabrial Revolution. They have the technology and the understanding. 

Navani is going to be very busy. People are going to need fabrial washing machines, dishwashers, etc. 

Mundane things, for sure. But is going to turn the world inside out. 

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11 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

One of the prime reasons for the Industrial Revolution in England, was the shortage of labor. The Black Plague had eliminated enough people that they needed to automate things. 

On Roshar, they have just lost a lot of manual labor. They are ripe for their own industrial Fabrial Revolution. They have the technology and the understanding. 

Navani is going to be very busy. People are going to need fabrial washing machines, dishwashers, etc. 

Mundane things, for sure. But is going to turn the world inside out. 

Fabrails are a bit to expensive for the average Jo shmo.  Remember they consume gemstones fairly quickly and those gemstones are extremely valuable to soulcasters.

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4 hours ago, Karger said:

Fabrails are a bit to expensive for the average Jo shmo.  Remember they consume gemstones fairly quickly and those gemstones are extremely valuable to soulcasters.

Keep in mind how much things we take for granted, have come down in price over the last hundred to two hundred years. We are probably not at the personal washing machine point, but we could have businesses with their own machines. 

What Fabrials are going to be the most important for day-to-day life? Not all households had Parshmen. 

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10 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

Keep in mind how much things we take for granted, have come down in price over the last hundred to two hundred years. We are probably not at the personal washing machine point, but we could have businesses with their own machines. 

What Fabrials are going to be the most important for day-to-day life? Not all households had Parshmen. 

But all villages did.

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Once synthetic gemstones are developed, the cost of producing fabrials could be reduced. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Once synthetic gemstones are developed, the cost of producing fabrials could be reduced. 

That will take a while considering that Rosharans do not even have a valid periodic table yet.  I think batch harvesting Casmfiends will take less time but even that will take several decades.

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2 hours ago, Karger said:

That will take a while considering that Rosharans do not even have a valid periodic table yet.  I think batch harvesting Casmfiends will take less time but even that will take several decades.

Once the effects of chasmfiend hunting ends up like the whales on our world, research into producing synthetic gemstones might accelerate rather quickly. It already has happened to a degree with the lanceryns. Add chasmfiends to the list, and the potential limitation on gemstones of the size desired could lead into some scientific break throughs. I would liken it to what will happen with the discovery of aluminum through electrolysis. Huge game changers. Not saying it will happen overnight by any stretch. Just I could see it coming up, and I could see it developing quickly in ways that will shape the rest of roshar. 

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56 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Once the effects of chasmfiend hunting ends up like the whales on our world, research into producing synthetic gemstones might accelerate rather quickly. It already has happened to a degree with the lanceryns. Add chasmfiends to the list, and the potential limitation on gemstones of the size desired could lead into some scientific break throughs. I would liken it to what will happen with the discovery of aluminum through electrolysis. Huge game changers. Not saying it will happen overnight by any stretch. Just I could see it coming up, and I could see it developing quickly in ways that will shape the rest of roshar. 

I meant raising Chasmfiends specifically for gemhearts.  It will still be several hundred years for Rosharans to figure out the kind of synthesis you are talking about.  Remember they still belive everything is made of the 10 essences.

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15 hours ago, Karger said:

I meant raising Chasmfiends specifically for gemhearts.  It will still be several hundred years for Rosharans to figure out the kind of synthesis you are talking about.  Remember they still belive everything is made of the 10 essences.

We don't know if chasmfiends could be raised in captivity. Also remember they have a rudimentary understanding of molecules (axi) and quantum mechanics (the ardents observing and measuring spren). So they are not as backwards in knowledge as you think. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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31 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

We don't know if chasmfiends could be raised in captivity. Also remember they have a rudimentary understanding of molecules (axi) and quantum mechanics (the ardents observing and measuring spren). So they are not as backwards in knowledge as you think. 

Axi are an idea of theoretical smallest substances.  We on earth would likely say atom.  The concept of the atom was taught by Democritus over two thousand years ago.  While the uncertainty principle is interesting it is of no practical value in attempting to form synthetic gemstones.  The actual possess involved in creating them artificially means you must have the ability to produce high heat and pressure as well as an understanding of chemistry that they do not yet have.  I am not trying to say that Rosharan scientists are incompetent or backward.  They simply lack the knowledge and understanding as well as the ability to acquire it and do what you suggest.

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49 minutes ago, Karger said:

Axi are an idea of theoretical smallest substances.  We on earth would likely say atom.  The concept of the atom was taught by Democritus over two thousand years ago.  While the uncertainty principle is interesting it is of no practical value in attempting to form synthetic gemstones.  The actual possess involved in creating them artificially means you must have the ability to produce high heat and pressure as well as an understanding of chemistry that they do not yet have.  I am not trying to say that Rosharan scientists are incompetent or backward.  They simply lack the knowledge and understanding as well as the ability to acquire it and do what you suggest.

High heat like the surge of division? Pressure like the surge of well.....pressure? lol

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3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

High heat like the surge of division? Pressure like the surge of well.....pressure? lol

Adhesion.  They have the theoretical ability but they do not have the chemical background yet.  They need to know what they are doing before they can just apply heat and pressure.  Also I have no idea if Roshar produces things like potash or even coal.

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8 minutes ago, Karger said:

Adhesion.  They have the theoretical ability but they do not have the chemical background yet.  They need to know what they are doing before they can just apply heat and pressure.  Also I have no idea if Roshar produces things like potash or even coal.

Way of Kings page 87

"Well, let us move on to science, then" Jasnah said, tone displeased "What can you say about yourself there?"

"I have the reasonable foundation in the sciences you might expect of a young woman my age" Shallan said, more stiffly than she would have liked.

"Which means?"

"I can speak with skill about geography, geology, physics, and chemistry. I've made a particular study of biology and botany, as I was able to pursue them with a reasonable level of independence on my father's estate. But if you expect me to be able to solve Fabrisan's Conundrum with a wave of my hand, I suspect you shall be disappointed."

 

Brandon has said Scadial is further along in technological advancement regarding metallurgy than they should be at their period of time due to the importance of metals in allomancy and feruchemy. Personally I do not feel it would be farfetched to feel Rosharans would place a greater importance on finding additional ways of producing gemstones considering their entire infrastructure depends on it. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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Just now, Pathfinder said:

Brandon has said Scadial is further along in technological advancement regarding metallurgy than they should be at their period of time due to the importance of metals in allomancy and feruchemy. Personally I do not feel it would be farfetched to feel Rosharans would place a greater important on finding additional ways of producing gemstones considering their entire infrastructure depends on it. 

I imagine they would if they had any idea what gemstones were made of or how to produce them but they do not.  Metals can be produced by purifying metals humans figured that one out at the literal end of the stone age prior to recorded history.  They did not figure out the chemestry necessary to produce gemstones until after the discovery of conversion theory and stoichiometry (which the Rosharans do not have and are not even close to having from what we have seen) by Antoine Lavoisier(one of my personal science heroes).  I must add that in order to preform his experiments Lavoisier had to be one of the wealthiest men on the planet and be a virtual Einstein(and his work was not truly completed and likely would not have been if his wife had not been equally smart).  After that you would still need to discover a decent form of potash which I am not sure exists on Roshar and then this megagenius would have to find the Radiants with the interest and time to preform the experiments(their are about 3 dustbringers and less then a hundred windrunners available on Roshar at the moment and I imagine they are all going to be a bit busy).  In short I do not think this is going to happen for at least half a decade if not longer.  Breading Casmfiends sounds a bit easier to be honest.

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4 minutes ago, Karger said:

I imagine they would if they had any idea what gemstones were made of or how to produce them but they do not.  Metals can be produced by purifying metals humans figured that one out at the literal end of the stone age prior to recorded history.  They did not figure out the chemestry necessary to produce gemstones until after the discovery of conversion theory and stoichiometry (which the Rosharans do not have and are not even close to having from what we have seen) by Antoine Lavoisier(one of my personal science heroes).  I must add that in order to preform his experiments Lavoisier had to be one of the wealthiest men on the planet and be a virtual Einstein(and his work was not truly completed and likely would not have been if his wife had not been equally smart).  After that you would still need to discover a decent form of potash which I am not sure exists on Roshar and then this megagenius would have to find the Radiants with the interest and time to preform the experiments(their are about 3 dustbringers and less then a hundred windrunners available on Roshar at the moment and I imagine they are all going to be a bit busy).  In short I do not think this is going to happen for at least half a decade if not longer.  Breading Casmfiends sounds a bit easier to be honest.

Personally I disagree. Breeding creatures whose claw is the size of an entire person does not sound easier than using radiant surges coupled with fabrial science, and heralds who used such technological marvels for ages to provide a leg up. But to each their own. 

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17 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Breeding creatures whose claw is the size of an entire person

I do not think the young are that small and Casmfiends have demonstrated enough intelligence that I think they could be trained considering that plenty of Rosharan's have experience training animals and none have any experience in what you are talking about(maybe the Heralds do but considering Tezim the great's letter to Dalinar I am not optimistic about their usefulness). 

Hey Ishar how do you..

LIFT UP YOUR HEADS MEN OF THE EAST TO HEAR YOUR GOD'S PROCLAMATION!!

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31 minutes ago, Karger said:

I do not think the young are that small and Casmfiends have demonstrated enough intelligence that I think they could be trained considering that plenty of Rosharan's have experience training animals and none have any experience in what you are talking about(maybe the Heralds do but considering Tezim the great's letter to Dalinar I am not optimistic about their usefulness). 

Hey Ishar how do you..

LIFT UP YOUR HEADS MEN OF THE EAST TO HEAR YOUR GOD'S PROCLAMATION!!

The gemhearts are harvested when the chasmfiend goes into a chrysalis. That is the size of a chasmfiend when it goes into a chrysalis. They need to allow it to grow that big in order for the gemheart to get to the size they desire. So again, not sure how you are going to keep a creature that size in captivity. Not to mention keep multiple of them considering you are aiming to breed them. Elephants and whales do not do well in captivity on our world. How exactly are they supposed to do that to something twice, three, or even four times that size? So the quote from the book about all scholars having a basis in chemistry being required is not having any experience? The prior desolations mention the heralds teaching medicine, forging and etc. "The wisdom of the heralds". Taln came to himself when Dalinar united the realms. Navani and Jasnah are going to be asking Shallash all sorts of things. There is also Battar and Pailah. 

So to me developing technology to produce synthetic gemstones, on a world where gemstones are supremely important, makes more sense than trying to breed in captivity something this size:

 

 

stormlight___chasmfiend_by_inkthinker_d7sq5mx-pre.jpg

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I feel like Roshar is advancing in different directions than Earth has/is/did. In terms of energy, they're pretty much set. Transportation across large distances is simplified by the Oathgates.

WoB on synthetic gemstones

Quote

PhantomMonstrosity

Do synthetic gemstones work in fabrials too?

Brandon Sanderson

Synthetic gemstones should work.  It's a combination of color and chemical structure that's important. Just like metals from off Scadrial would work for an Allomancer, synthetic gemstones should work.

Steel Ministry report (Aug. 20, 2014)

But how long would it take them to create those? Here, the earliest synthetics were in the late 1800s and basically involved melting powders. There's a lot of different methods, but some of them require things that Roshar definitely does not have (vacuum chambers). We don't know how advanced their chemistry is. They could still be looking for gold from lead or the elixir of life. 

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53 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So again, not sure how you are going to keep a creature that size in captivity

Not exactly captivity.  Keeping it pend up is a no.  Instead train it when young by giving food for good behavior and find some way to inflict pain for bad behavior.

53 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

o the quote from the book about all scholars having a basis in chemistry being required is not having any experience?

As a person who has taken courses in Chemistry at the collage level.  I can say with confidence that I know more about the chemical nature of the world then any Rosharan.  I can also say that I have only the most rudimentary idea of how to make a synthetic gemstone. 

56 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The prior desolations mention the heralds teaching medicine, forging and etc

I seriously doubt this included chemistry.  Why would it?  Assuming you are not at a level where you can easily make gunpowder  (which Roshar does not have) I see no practical use for any type of chemical knowledge beyond some rudimentary techene.

Edited by Karger
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They may not have the understanding yet, it is within their technological abilities. https://www.gia.edu/gem-synthetic

But they do have one big advantage... Soulcasting. I doubt they can soulcast gems, or soulcasters would be money making devices. But they should be able to soulcast the ingredients. 

But their best bet would be trading with other worlds for cheap gems like quartz or smokestone (smokey quartz). At least, if they didn't have an army of Voidbringers guarding the Shard pool. 

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11 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

They may not have the understanding yet, it is within their technological abilities. https://www.gia.edu/gem-synthetic

As far as I am aware the Rosharans do not even know what Chromium is let alone how to extract it.  That means no rubies.  Because their are no volcanoes on Roshar they do not have a method of obtaining boric acid so no saphires thus making the Verneuil processe useless.  The only way to use the Czochralski process that Rosharan's might be able to pull off would require a dustbringer to be in constant attendance of the growing gemstones for over a year.  Flux growth requires Alkaline metals which the Rosharans will not be able to make until they create a powerful battery.  In summary I do not think that any of these methods are practical.

11 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

But their best bet would be trading with other worlds for cheap gems like quartz or smokestone (smokey quartz). At least, if they didn't have an army of Voidbringers guarding the Shard pool. 

This is a much better idea.  Smokestone is widely available on many worlds with volcanic activity.  Trading for it is a good idea and would likley bring down the Rosharan cost considerably but the dangers and expense of traveling shadesmar must be considered.  It would be kind of like a silk road.  The costs would drop but only so far.

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17 hours ago, BookishOcelot said:

I feel like Roshar is advancing in different directions than Earth has/is/did. In terms of energy, they're pretty much set. Transportation across large distances is simplified by the Oathgates.

WoB on synthetic gemstones

But how long would it take them to create those? Here, the earliest synthetics were in the late 1800s and basically involved melting powders. There's a lot of different methods, but some of them require things that Roshar definitely does not have (vacuum chambers). We don't know how advanced their chemistry is. They could still be looking for gold from lead or the elixir of life. 

As I mentioned earlier, Scadrial was pre-industrial yet they developed metallurgy that far exceeded what they should have had at that point. Why? Necessity is the mother of invention. Metals are hugely important on Scadrial. So what do people do? They focus on developing it. Nobles pay premier for the best metals, so it would behoove metallurgists to produce better quality, more efficiently. Mixing metals. Developing new alloys. Finding new ways. So too for Roshar. Gemstones power fabrials. Gemstones provide renewable illumination. Gemstones provide renewable power. Gemstones are money. They are jewelry. 

Again, as mentioned above, the surge pressure anyone? There is your vacuum. They wouldn't be looking for gold from lead, when with a soulcaster (that uses gemstones) can do exactly that. So once again necessity. 

17 hours ago, Karger said:

Not exactly captivity.  Keeping it pend up is a no.  Instead train it when young by giving food for good behavior and find some way to inflict pain for bad behavior.

And this is still somehow easier to do than researching and producing gemstones via chemistry and surges?

17 hours ago, Karger said:

As a person who has taken courses in Chemistry at the collage level.  I can say with confidence that I know more about the chemical nature of the world then any Rosharan.  I can also say that I have only the most rudimentary idea of how to make a synthetic gemstone. 

Do you have a reason to learn how to synthesize gemstones? Did you go to college with a focus on chemistry and geology because you wanted to learn more about gemstones? Again necessity. Gemstones means power and money. 

17 hours ago, Karger said:

I seriously doubt this included chemistry.  Why would it?  Assuming you are not at a level where you can easily make gunpowder  (which Roshar does not have) I see no practical use for any type of chemical knowledge beyond some rudimentary techene.

Gunpowder has no practical use on Roshar. The highstorms would ruin it. WoB support that. At this point I feel like I am a parrot. Gemstones are of huge import on Roshar. With the fabrial boom, research will explode in that direction. For instance we are experiencing a shortage in oil supply across the globe. What has occurred in response? Alternative fuel research. We have people looking into corn oil fuel, synthetic fuel, electricity and many more. So too will Roshar. 

11 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

They may not have the understanding yet, it is within their technological abilities. https://www.gia.edu/gem-synthetic

But they do have one big advantage... Soulcasting. I doubt they can soulcast gems, or soulcasters would be money making devices. But they should be able to soulcast the ingredients. 

But their best bet would be trading with other worlds for cheap gems like quartz or smokestone (smokey quartz). At least, if they didn't have an army of Voidbringers guarding the Shard pool. 

I whole heartily agree. Using the surges would accelerate their capabilities a hundred fold. 

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2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

And this is still somehow easier to do than researching and producing gemstones via chemistry and surges?

Because they actually know what they are doing and can easily follow a plan as apposed to taking shots in the dark and hoping that someday they get lucky. 

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Gunpowder has no practical use on Roshar. The highstorms would ruin it. WoB support that. At this point I feel like I am a parrot. Gemstones are of huge import on Roshar. With the fabrial boom, research will explode in that direction. For instance we are experiencing a shortage in oil supply across the globe. What has occurred in response? Alternative fuel research. We have people looking into corn oil fuel, synthetic fuel, electricity and many more. So too will Roshar. 

I think we are talking past each other.  Rosharans have no idea where to go.  Scadrains did.  It does not matter how much gas you put in the car if you do not have a map that tells you your direction you are not getting to your destination any time soon.  Necessity may make you more willing to put more gas in the car but it also makes you more willing to use an existing difficult rout as apposed to spending time wandering around hoping for a better one.

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6 minutes ago, Karger said:

Because they actually know what they are doing and can easily follow a plan as apposed to taking shots in the dark and hoping that someday they get lucky. 

They know where Chasmfiends lay their eggs? Because I distinctly remember it mentioned in the book that they do not. They know where the juveniles hang out? Because again I distinctly remember they do not. They know the migration patterns of the chasmfiends because again I distinctly remember they do not. They know what a chasmfiend has to do to prepare itself for chrysalis? Because once more I distinctly remember it mentioned in the book that they do not.

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

I think we are talking past each other.  Rosharans have no idea where to go.  Scadrains did.  It does not matter how much gas you put in the car if you do not have a map that tells you your direction you are not getting to your destination any time soon.  Necessity may make you more willing to put more gas in the car but it also makes you more willing to use an existing difficult rout as apposed to spending time wandering around hoping for a better one.

Yep, I agree we are talking past each other, because can you provide me the evidence that supports your claims? Where does it say Scadrians knew where to go while Rosharans won't? How does putting gas in the car result in people thinking of ways to produce biofuel from corn? Show me the road map between the two there, and why that would be beyond the Rosharans? By all means continue to use the existing route of wiping out the chasmfiends. Brandon has said he drew on whaling for inspiration for that. Did we find a way to breed whales for their oil? Nope. We found alternative means of producing or alternative sources of attaining it. So too for Roshar. But as you said, we are talking past each other, so not sure what would be gained from continuing this. 

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14 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

They know where Chasmfiends lay their eggs? Because I distinctly remember it mentioned in the book that they do not. They know where the juveniles hang out? Because again I distinctly remember they do not. They know the migration patterns of the chasmfiends because again I distinctly remember they do not. They know what a chasmfiend has to do to prepare itself for chrysalis? Because once more I distinctly remember it mentioned in the book that they do not.

This can be easily fixed by having some people follow one around for a while.  They know what they don't know and can figure out answers by Observation.  They know that Chasmfiends breed, that they mate, and that they can learn.

17 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Did we find a way to breed whales for their oil? Nope. We found alternative means of producing or alternative sources of attaining it. So too for Roshar. But as you said, we are talking past each other, so not sure what would be gained from continuing this. 

But we already new about electricity and the Lighbulb before whaling got to the point where the global population was reduced to the point where we needed it.  This is also a fallacy of analogy.  The reason whaling continued as long as it did was a failure of humans to organize and produce the necessary amounts of electricity to power lightbulbs on a wide scale.  It was an issue of finance, politics and resource management not science.  The necessary technology to make a lightbulb existed in the 18th century.  Whaling peaked in the mid 19th.

20 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Where does it say Scadrians knew where to go while Rosharans won't?

All you have to do to make metal is heat a specific kind of rock.  This requires no education or imagination or even knowledge of the natural sciences. If you put a kind of rock in a pan over the fire it melts and purifies.  The earliest humans figured this out years ago.  If their is a specific use for this purified rock we look into more efficient and better ways of heating and find ways to do it better(the more gas in the car analogy) we heat different kinds of rocks at different heats and observe the results.  We take these results and mix them together. 

On Scadrail we get better at this because we know getting better at this is important and we have real demonstrations as to why(alomancers).  Also TLR could have given them instructions on how to do everything and probably did.  Individual people may have made small alterations via trail and error to see if they could get something slightly better but by and large when it came to metallurgy everyone was likely looking at the answer key and just working retroactively.  Even if not.  Their is nothing technically complex about era 1 scadrail.  You don't have to know much about anything to make steel(via formal education I mean).  This is called Techne an art or craft that can be practiced without any knowledge of the natural world.  Chemistry of the level we are talking about is not like that.  The conditions you have to meet in order to synthesize a gemstone are highly specific.  Heat and pressure too low nothing happens too high and you get the wrong substance.  The odds of getting their without some kind of theory to guide you are astronomical.  Hence you need a theory.  Currently the Rosharans do not even approach that theory.  If I was Navani and I desperately needed to synthesis gemstones I would review everything I knew about gemstones and likely conclude they they are made by a biological possess and so my best option is to study greatshells via autopsy.  Not work on heating different kinds of stone. 

Necessity may be the mother of invention but it cannot spark genius overnight.  We realy need to get fusion working but no one has figured it out despite the fact that the person who figures it out will be a billionaire, solve the world's energy problem, and space travel easy. 

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