Jump to content

Odium's way of splintering Shards


TheFoxQR

Recommended Posts

On 7/27/2019 at 6:58 PM, RShara said:

I think he's used different methods for each Splintering so far. He shoved D&D into the Cognitive, wasn't even present for Ambition's, and then whatever he did to Honor.

He shoved the remnants of D&D in the cognitive realm post-splintering.

As to not being present for Ambition it seems like killing a Vessel can take a long time.

The Stormfather gives the impression that it took years for Honor to die during which he was ranting to the Radiants.  That was pre-Everstorm and we’ve only seen Odium manifest directly on Roshar itself with the Everstorm.

MB spoiler

Spoiler

Preservation took eons to die despite Ruin dealing the blow pre-imprisonment. 

However he’s killing and splintering, Odium may be able to set it in motion and not have to stick around for the whole process to play out. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

Given the way Sanderson qualifies his appreciation for the conflict theory mentioned to him per the WoB, maybe he's hinting at what you're saying? I do think that Odium might have corrupted Honor, for instance, at least enough for Honor to go insane and die. OTOH the description of the battle with Ambition (AU territory I think?), though vague, refers to some kind of space combat IIRC.

Khriss does say "the actual battle took place in the vast space between planets", yes.

I'm not entirely sure what that even means, though, since Shards (except Devotion/Dominion post-Splintering) are primarily Spiritual Realm entities. The Spiritual Realm is location independent. If a Shard is Invested in a planet, it's obviously associated with that particular planet - but that doesn't seem to apply here...

Anyway, that battle was not the final Splintering of Ambition. Ambition's mortal wound could have been some form of infusing Hatred into Ambition, which took effect later (and elsewhere), perhaps?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/2/2019 at 9:04 PM, Dunadan Windrunner said:

Do you have the reference for the Dustbringers?

Don't know if anyone has responded to this, but it's an assumption. All the other orders have their glow matching the corresponding color. Green, blue, whatever else. So the assumption would be that Releasers would have red eyes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, RayOfSunshine said:

Don't know if anyone has responded to this, but it's an assumption. All the other orders have their glow matching the corresponding color. Green, blue, whatever else. So the assumption would be that Releasers would have red eyes.

When did somone's eyes glow green? 

I think Odium's method might have something to do with pushing other shard's investiture against physical objects or souls.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

There are probably multiple factors as to how Odium does what he does. He isn't just looking to be the top dog, he is also looking for competition, primarily to eliminate them, yes but also simply as competition

Quote

Paladin Brewer

Out of all the Shards, why does Odium go for Devotion and Dominion?

Brandon Sanderson

He targets people with two kinds of ideas. Number one, he can argue they're breaking the rules they set out. And two, people he thinks are a good match for him, or a challenge, or a danger.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

We know that Odium does have an advantage against other Shards:

Quote

Questioner

Does Odium actually present a real threat to Harmony, because he-- *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

So Harmony is vastly more powerful than Odium.

Questioner

Yeah. 

Brandon Sanderson

Elend was vastly more powerful than Vin. Who would win in a fight?

Questioner

Vin.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, there's your answer.

White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016)

Quote

Khyrindor

Odium seems to have a bad track record when it comes to killing Shards. He was wounded versus Ambition, and he's trapped on Roshar. Yet, he's credited in killing Devotion and Dominion. My question is: was Autonomy significantly involved and would Odium have been able to do it on his own and still be okay to--

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. It is dangerous to attack a Shard with one Shard. Let's say that. And a wise Shard would try to avoid that confrontation unless there are specific reasons they think they would have an advantage.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

I think Odium has had multiple advantages, related to his Intent, the Intent of those he has targeted, Realmatics of Investing a Shardworld, Realmatics of the particular Shardworld of his target(s), cunning & experience, willingness to kill in both person and Intent, politicking (as we see in the OB epigraph letters), etc.

Quote

ericth

What is Odium's edge. Vin and Ati killed each other but Rayse has downed 3 shards and survived. Was it skill, ability, numbers or possibly un-dispersed power?

Brandon Sanderson

Some combination of the above.

Words of Radiance Los Angeles signing (March 5, 2014)

Quote

Haradion Drogon

The Letter implies Odium is allied or at least cross purposes with Bavadin. Is Odium actively allied to any *other* cosmere Power(s)?

Brandon Sanderson

YES.

General Signed Books 2015 (Dec. 12, 2015)

People usually cite the above WoB and other similar WoBs to speculate on a possible alliance between Odium and Autonomy, as well as the theory that he pitted Devotion and Dominion against one another

There's this WoB:

Quote

Kogiopsis (paraphrased)

Given that we now know that Odium can 'make it possible' for people to use magic that draws on him on other planets, has he done this anywhere besides Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium has been active on all other planets, including several we haven't seen yet.

Rithmatist Denver signing (May 16, 2013)

So, he probably had a temporary system of Investiture on Sel, Threnody, Ashyn and now Roshar. The Unmade might not even be from Roshar.

He is going through the Shards on a case-by-case basis. He doesn't have one superweapon against the other Shards or else there wouldn't have been a fight between him and Ambition & later Honor, and Cultivation would be dead right now.

Quote

Argent

I thought, like, at one of the signings you told me that when Odium was on Sel and Splintered the Shards there, the reason he did the Cognitive Realm hack was because he was not yet experienced in Splintering stuff.

Brandon Sanderson

Right. He did not want what happened to happen, but he didn't know that he didn't want what happened to happen.

Argent

What I was getting at is, I could never find a recording of you saying "He was not experienced. He didn't want the power to be taken by anyone, and that's the only solution he could figure out." Does that sound like something you would say?

Brandon Sanderson

That is something I would say, yes... There are better ways to do what he wanted to do, which he later did a better job with. But there's not a lot of experimenting he could do.

Argent

Limited number of subjects, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Mmhmm.

JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018)

There is something inherent to him that allows him to do what he has been doing:

Quote

Galavantes (paraphrased)

The fact that Odium has bested other Shards implies he is more powerful. Is Odium inherently a more powerful Shard or is it a matter of his nature?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Both factors play a role.

A Memory of Light Raleigh Signing (Feb. 20, 2013)

Which, I think, might be the freedom expressed through his Intent.

Preservation couldn't kill, Odium definitely would have no such limitations. I've often wondered what exactly a Shard's Intent might be. We see with Cultivation and Honor how complicated these things could be. Honor is about creating and adhering to certain bonds and rules but there's also so many cultural aspects to it. Cultivation isn't just about natural growth, it's could also be pruning, grafting, killing weeds, strengthening the immune system, etc. More than that, the entire system of Surgebinding is an ode to the complexity of the ideas that these Shards inhabit. What is Odium? Given Adonalsium's Godlike nature, is Odium basically "divine wrath without context" or is there a Godly and Realmatic Intent that also translates into human intent, similar to Honor.

Also:

Quote

FirstSelector

Was Cultivation close enough to when Odium got  Honor, to know how to fight back?

Brandon Sanderson

Heheheheh. I would say yes.

FirstSelector

And Cultivation, is she--

Brandon Sanderson

She is still there.

FirstSelector

Alive and kicking. Okay, you've said that before--

Brandon Sanderson

She is alive and kicking.

FirstSelector

And she can probably know how to not turn her back to the--

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I mean... She has learned from the experiences of others.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

It looks like there's a another reason why Odium wants Cultivation dead and there is a method to Shatter a shard "like a swift decapitation" as Khriss put it, rather than "a slow strangulation".

 

There are Orders of The Knights Radiant who had red eyes. Kaladin and Lift have the eye colours of their specific order, sapphire blue and clear diamond grey respectively. Only darkeyed Radiants' eye colours change, that's why Shallan, Jasnah or Renarin's eyes haven't changed.

Only the Shardblades of Windrunners and Stonewards possibly from the Feverstone Keep, and the Edgedancers' blades have been seen bonded to Shardbearers. The Shardblades of the Orders of Dustbringers and Lightweavers, which would have resulted in red lighteyes, are missing. There might have been historical stigma attached to red eyes because of association with Voidbringers. We do know that the Dustbringers in particular were feared because of the "terrible nature of their powers" and that there were "to most there was little difference between these two assemblies ([Dustbringers] and [Voidbringers])". Lightweavers might have been similarly distrusted by pre-Recreance Roshar due to their illusion-crafting.

Roshar was designed by Adonalsium and has a lot of ambient Investiture from before Honor and Cultivation's arrival. I don't see why these two Orders might not be the result of a little Investiture co-opting, that isn't just under the purview of evil Shards now, is it? 

Edited by Honorless
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Honorless said:

There's this WoB:

Quote

Kogiopsis (paraphrased)

Given that we now know that Odium can 'make it possible' for people to use magic that draws on him on other planets, has he done this anywhere besides Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium has been active on all other planets, including several we haven't seen yet.

Rithmatist Denver signing (May 16, 2013)

So, he probably had a temporary system of Investiture on Sel, Threnody, Ashyn and now Roshar. The Unmade might not even be from Roshar.

Hmm Sel and threnody just got more interesting.. I wonder how much of his investiture is still left on these planets.. It seems totally weird now that how much similarities there are between the shades of threnody and fused. 
May be the shades were an experiment gone wrong which was repeated on Roshar with slightly better results..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Hmm Sel and threnody just got more interesting.. I wonder how much of his investiture is still left on these planets.. It seems totally weird now that how much similarities there are between the shades of threnody and fused. 
May be the shades were an experiment gone wrong which was repeated on Roshar with slightly better results..

Nothing. I doubt Odium would leave behind even a drop of his Investiture like that.

 

Also, you posted that twice, delete the second one

Edited by Honorless
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/2/2019 at 5:32 PM, The traveller said:

@Honorless valid point but we shall see :)

Also I want to know how long it took him to take out D&D and A.. was it really as long drawn as Roshar..? I doubt that but this wob suggests it took him much longer than I originally anticipated..

He's kept mum on that, handing out RAFOs *sighs*, the only other thing I can recall about their Splintering is that Skai "went out swinging", Brandon said the same thing about Honor who successfully trapped Odium, and Ambition definitely fought back. So Splintering is a process, not just a strike to the back.

We know he went after Ambition first but didn't find her, he did end up finding Devotion and Dominion and killed them, then stuffed them into the Cognitive Realm. Elantris is already very ahead in the Cosmere timeline, and Roshar has been having Desolations for millenia, 4500 years ago was just the Last Desolation. We actually don't know when Ruin and Preservation created Scadrial, we know other Shards did visit it. We also know that the Lord Ruler ruled for a 1000 years and that it has been 342 years since the Catacendre in Wax & Wayne1. Elantris is set almost 900 years before Warbreaker, which is set around a 1000 years after White Sand. Then comparing tech levels between the Shardworlds... Classical Scadrial was almost close to Wax & Wayne era Scadrial, Threnody had gunpowder before the Evil and after Mistborn era 1; Taldain already had guns long ago. I think, Scadrial might not even have been created when D&D Splintered.

Edited by Honorless
Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I think, Scadrial might not even have been created when D&D Splintered.

Good analysis all that. I agree with this also. The only thing I want to ask here is that was tlr first to get to the well of ascension..? Or were there others before him? how many times have people held the power of preservation ? It is possible that there were others but they did not survive because no one had the deadly combo of Feruchemy and Allomancy like tlr..

And how many millennia passed before ruin needed to be trapped.. if there were more, then scadrial is also much older than we think..

But still yes it is possible that D&D has kicked the bucket well before any of this happened...

How old are the ire then? 

Edited by The traveller
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Good analysis all that. I agree with this also. The only thing I want to ask here is that was tlr first to get to the well of ascension..? Or were there others before him? how many times have people held the power of preservation ? It is possible that there were others but they did not survive because no one had the deadly combo of Feruchemy and Allomancy like tlr..

And how many millennia passed before ruin needed to be trapped.. if there were more, then scadrial is also much older than we think..

But still yes it is possible that D&D has kicked the bucket well before any of this happened...

How old are the ire then? 

The Well of Ascension refills every 1024 years ;)

The Ire knew of Devotion enough to pray to her directly, so very old. They might not even qualify to be called "Elantrians" by virtue of being older than when the city was founded. They might have been its original founders, who then abandoned it and then years later Arelon came to be colonized and King Rhashm, who renamed himself Raoshem made it the centre of his Kingdom and dubbed it 'Elantris'. It took a few decades before the Shaod started.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

The Well of Ascension refills every 1024 years

Yes but how many times it filled and how many people took that power before TLR happened? He alone managed immortality..

where did you learn of arelon history? Wobs?

Edited by The traveller
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Honorless said:
7 hours ago, The traveller said:

Hmm Sel and threnody just got more interesting.. I wonder how much of his investiture is still left on these planets.. It seems totally weird now that how much similarities there are between the shades of threnody and fused. 
May be the shades were an experiment gone wrong which was repeated on Roshar with slightly better results..

Nothing. I doubt Odium would leave behind even a drop of his Investiture like that.

Actually, I disagree, as it just feels to much of an accident that enraged Shades have red eyes (after spilling blood). Though I agree that it's not typical of Odium to do so (I feel like there is something strange going on with Shades, Ambition, Threnody and all of that but I still have to think it through to make any sense).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, Nnatel said:

Actually, I disagree, as it just feels to much of an accident that enraged Shades have red eyes (after spilling blood). Though I agree that it's not typical of Odium to do so (I feel like there is something strange going on with Shades, Ambition, Threnody and all of that but I still have to think it through to make any sense).

Thank you @Nnatel

I agree that odium would not want to leave investiture but he might have left some because ambition was not dead yet..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My theory is that Odium's advantage and ability to shatter other shards is tied very tightly to his intent.

Consider:

1. Odium's Intent Allows him to Perceive Evil and Flaws in Others

Odium (at one point named “Anger”) appears to be an aspect of divine wrath. Divine wrath is not merely objectless anger or hatred, however, it is specifically hatred of evil (E.g. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, etc.)

We know that Odium’s wrath is “separated from the virtues that gave it context” – so mercy, justice, and even the principles of “lex talionis” (“eye for an eye”) do not bar his anger.

However, to be able to be wrathful about something, you must still have some conception of where it has gone wrong. Odium isn't just wrathful against anything and everything - his wrath has a focus. 

Whenever I think of Odium, I am reminded of the Demon’s Mirror from the “Snow Queen” fairy tale, described here:

Quote

 

One day the devil was in a very good humor because he had just finished a mirror which had this peculiar power: everything good and beautiful that was reflected in it seemed to dwindle to almost nothing at all, while everything that was worthless and ugly became most conspicuous and even uglier than ever. In this mirror the loveliest landscapes looked like boiled spinach, and the very best people became hideous, or stood on their heads and had no stomachs. Their faces were distorted beyond any recognition, and if a person had a freckle it was sure to spread until it covered both nose and mouth.

"That's very funny!" said the devil. If a good, pious thought passed through anyone's mind, it showed in the mirror as a carnal grin, and the devil laughed aloud at his ingenious invention.

All those who went to the hobgoblin's school-for he had a school of his own-told everyone that a miracle had come to pass. Now, they asserted, for the very first time you could see how the world and its people really looked. They scurried about with the mirror until there was not a person alive nor a land on earth that had not been distorted.

Then they wanted to fly up to heaven itself, to scoff at the angels, and our Lord. The higher they flew with the mirror, the wider it grinned. They could hardly manage to hold it. Higher they flew, and higher still, nearer to heaven and the angels. Then the grinning mirror trembled with such violence that it slipped from their hands and fell to the earth, where it shattered into hundreds of millions of billions of bits, or perhaps even more. And now it caused more trouble than it did before it was broken, because some of the fragments were smaller than a grain of sand and these went flying throughout the wide world. Once they got in people's eyes they would stay there. These bits of glass distorted everything the people saw, and made them see only the bad side of things, for every little bit of glass kept the same power that the whole mirror had possessed.

A few people even got a glass splinter in their hearts, and that was a terrible thing, for it turned their hearts into lumps of ice. Some of the fragments were so large that they were used as window panes-but not the kind of window through which you should look at your friends. Other pieces were made into spectacles, and evil things came to pass when people put them on to see clearly and to see justice done.

 

I think Odium’s intent makes him see both people and shards in their most negative, evil aspects. He compares them to perfection, and, in so doing, is filled with hatred towards their flaws and vices. It is this which makes him despise and hate the other shards, for he sees the ways in which they fail the people and cause misery and suffering.

We see, I think, a hint of this in Odium’s conversation with Dalinar in chapter 57. Odium states that

Quote

 

“Honor cared only for bonds, not the meaning of bonds and oaths, merely that they were kept. Cultivation only wants to see transformation, growth. It can be good or bad for all she cares. The pain of men is nothing to her. Only I understand it. Only I care Dalinar.

If you could see the result of Honor’s influence, you would not be so quick to name me a god of Anger. Separate the emotion from men and you have creatures like Nale and his skybreakers. That is what Honor would have given you.

Ask that for Cultivation, if you see her. Ask what she’d want for Roshar. I think you’d find me to be the better choice.”

 

I think he is aware of how the other Shards are flawed and that this leads him to hate them. This explains both his desire to destroy them and his desire to remain unalloyed with their power, which from his perspective would be corrupting.

We also see a little bit of Odium’s nature in his choice of allies: he fights with the party first injured in the desolation, the ancient Singers who were forced out of their land by humanity. He sees the evil the humans have done and he hates and despises it, but his hatred has no proportionality or mercy. He is willing to completely destroy even generations which have no knowledge of the crime and wipe them from the face of Roshar. I suspect, even should he succeed, Odium’s wrath would merely turn upon the victors (since they would have killed innocents in the process of victory).  In fact, I suspect this has already happened once. I think Odium led the first desolation where the humans attacked the voidbringers, probably in response to some sort of wrong, then promptly switched sides to avenge the attacked party and punish the sins on the human side. In this way, his wrath is an example of the saying “an eye for an eye makes the world blind.” Evil begets evil and so Odium’s wrath is never satiated – he sees all the flaws and will always be supporting a twisted sort of vengeance till eternity end. 

2. The Ability to See Flaws allows Odium to See Weaknesses in Shards

Seeing the flaws of both mortal and Shard however, would provide Odium with a distinct advantage. It means he can see where a Shard is in conflict with their intent, or where their intent is flawed. He is aware of their Hamartia (fatal flaws). Since all of the Shards are pieces of a complete unity, they each have weaknesses that make them blind to their own particular evils – none of them are perfectly “good” or can act perfectly in align with their intent. 

My theory is that shattering specifically occurs when a shard is forced into a position where it acts against its own intent or else is forced to face the flaw in its own intent in a major way. In Honor’s case, I suspect he was shattered either upon breaking one of his own Oaths or upon realizing that Oaths were fundamentally flawed. (I think the Herald’s betrayal is strongly tied into this in some way and that it either forced him to go against one of his oaths or else made him realize that Odium was correct and oaths were imperfect.)

Hypothetically then, any Shard forced into a position that goes against its own intent would be shattered. Preservation, for example, might be shattered by either getting its power to cause an act of great destruction, or else demonstrating that, by preserving things, it is in fact ruining them by making their natures fundamentally different. Cultivation might be shattered by either forcing it to “burn” its “gardens” or else revealing a flaw in its methods of “cultivation”. Ambition might have been shattered by forcing it into a position of subservience and so on and so forth. I don’t know enough about most of the other shards to speculate, but I think given enough information a flaw in each of their intents could be found.)

If true, Odium could potentially be shattered in one of several ways:

1)     Forcing him into a position where his wrath is turned inward to attack his own flaws.*

2)     Forcing him to confront a being of perfect good which has no flaws.

3)     Forcing him to confront one of the virtues which wrath is supposed to be associated with (i.e. mercy), something good which takes into account error/sin and forgives or heals it.

* I can’t help but wonder if this hasn’t already happened to a certain degree. We know the Unmade are, at least in some respect, Shards of Odium. Perhaps he is confronting evil aspects inherent in all men (including himself) and intentionally removing these “flaws” from the Shard, spinning them off as separate evil entities and thus making himself “the Broken one”. Alternatively, they might be “distorted reflections” of the evil in either men or Shards that he uses to accomplish his attacks.

Cultivation would probably be in a good position to pull something like this off, probably by guiding the people of Roshar, both Singer and human, to rally against him and reject their mutual hatred in a larger version of Dalinar’s refusal to let Odium “have his pain” (i.e. his flaw).

However, if Odium were shattered, I think the result would likely be tragedy. Consider the above quote with the Demon’s Mirror. If he is shattered, Odium would become even worse, because his splinters would enter into the hearts of men, Singer, Spren, and (perhaps) Shard and begin to destroy them. Instead of one locus of hatred, there would be many.

3. Possible Objections:

Objection 1: An enhanced ability to see flaws may in fact be part of Odium’s nature, but the shattering may still be done by corrupting investiture.  Odium would probably be better at corrupting investiture under this theory than other Shards, because he would see the “flaws” in the magic be able to take advantage of this, twisting the investiture towards his own use.

Response 1: This is likely true. However, to destroy a shard, Odium would most probably have to corrupt a large portion of their investiture (perhaps close to half) to be able to overpower them. It seems unlikely that he would be able to corrupt such a large portion of their nature, particularly if they found out and resisted.

Response 2: In corrupting investiture, Odium must exert some of his power. He will thus weaken himself proportionally to how much he invests. He might, if clever, be able to use this to destroy one Shard if he outfought them. However, if he must use so much power, how can he possibly destroy two? (Which he has done once and is attempting to do again.) In attacking one Shard, Odium would leave himself vulnerable to the other, who has their investiture free and now knows how he shattered the first shard. I think the shattering must instead be something that can be swift and not readily accomplished by the other shard.

Response 3: If the corrupted investiture is formed by the power of two shards, why can the other Shard not attack Odium through the same route? You say because the other shard has invested more in the world. But if Odium is investing some power in the other Shard’s magic, why can that Shard not turn the corruption against him?

Response 4: Some of the suggested corruptions do not seem to be influenced by Honor. The unmade in particular do not appear to have anything honorable about them. I do not see any good reason to believe they are large chunks of Honor’s power that have been corrupted (at this time). The voidsurges DO seem to be corruptions of the Nahel bond, but this bond was first formed by Spren, who figured out how to mimic what Honor did with the Honorblades. Though I suppose it’s possible that the formation of the voidish surges was a corruption of Honor’s investiture, I’m not sure of this.

Response 5: If Odium uses the corruption method, then Honor should have been unraveling ever since Odium first formed the corrupted voidlight. However, since they seem to have been around a long time and Honor seems to have shattered relatively abruptly, I do not see how they can be the weapon that did it.

Objection 2: Odium names himself Passion and, although Brandon implies he is partially deceiving himself, his words and methods seem to imply that there is in fact some truth to this.

Response 1: Odium does in fact feel emotion besides anger. Anger is powerful precisely in so far as it mourns the loss of what is good. He thus does experience the positive emotions he states – joy, happiness, etc. etc. – because he must first appreciate these things before he can be wrathful for their loss. He must first love innocence before he can hate evil for defiling it. His interpretation thus is in some ways closer to the truth than the interpretation that he is mere “anger,” but it also misses the mark in that he is not just raw emotion (else his emotion would not be weighted towards vengeance).

Response 2: Odium is represented in Dalinar’s vision as a flame. This is similar, interestingly, to the Altar of the Saints described in Revelation, which is fed by the tears and mourning of the oppressed:

“I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?”

The altar is fueled by injustice – by passion, by weeping, by joys lost, by sorrows and fear – but it burns at the foot of the throne of God, bringing their prayers and mourning into his presence, and fuels his wrath towards the wicked. Metaphorically, I think Odium’s flame is similar. The weeping and prayers of the people, their emotions, feed his wrath. In fact, now that I think of it, the burning of glyph wards may in fact be an aspect of Vorinism that originated in the old world and once was (or perhaps still is) of Odium.

Response 3: I believe Odium may be using the interpretation of himself as emotion to avoid his own fatal flaw -- the fact that he is wrath unbound by virtue. He thus interprets all the evil emotions inside himself as simply part of a vast "Passion," which of course must contain these negative emotions. In this way, he bears no guilt for anything he does that is evil and need not confront his own flaws. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/2/2019 at 1:54 AM, Honorless said:

There are Orders of The Knights Radiant who had red eyes.

The Shardblades of the Orders of Dustbringers and Lightweavers, which would have resulted in red lighteyes,

Are you speculating here or pulling this from somewhere?

I’d be surprised to learn that, as red investiture has almost always been associated with corruption

13 hours ago, Fractalfire said:

My theory is that Odium's advantage and ability to shatter other shards is tied very tightly to his intent.

Consider:

1. Odium's Intent Allows him to Perceive Evil and Flaws in Others

 

That’s probably the best explanation I’ve heard of Odium to date. Sounds pretty on the ball to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said:

Are you speculating here or pulling this from somewhere?

I’d be surprised to learn that, as red investiture has almost always been associated with corruption

Their (both the ancient Radiants and the Shardbearers) eyes are supposed to transform into the colour of garnet and ruby (if they are darkeyes). That part is canon.

The corruption part is me speculating. Though corruption makes it sound a bit sinister, I prefer the term Brandon first used: 'co-opting'. 

Edited by Honorless
Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said:

Are you speculating here or pulling this from somewhere?

yes it is canon.. lightweavers are supposed to have red eyes

only shallan is already light eyed so her eyes did not change

but ishnah and vathah they will
 

But Not everything that is red has to be co-opted 

Edited by The traveller
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Fractalfire said:

My theory is that Odium's advantage and ability to shatter other shards is tied very tightly to his intent.

[...]

Dude. This is good!

I know you posted this here first, and I don't know if I should say this, but make this your own topic, this is worth being that.

Link it back here in your post.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, TheFoxQR said:

Dude. This is good!

I know you posted this here first, and I don't know if I should say this, but make this your own topic, this is worth being that.

Link it back here in your post.

True.. totally,  start your own thread.. it is worth having it there. Otherwise your analysis will get lost in the comments that will come on this post.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

Their (both the ancient Radiants and the Shardbearers) eyes are supposed to transform into the colour of garnet and ruby (if they are darkeyes). That part is canon.

The corruption part is me speculating. Though corruption makes it sound a bit sinister, I prefer the term Brandon first used: 'co-opting'. 

Got it. Thank you. That’s very interesting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

Dude. This is good!

I know you posted this here first, and I don't know if I should say this, but make this your own topic, this is worth being that.

Link it back here in your post.

 

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

True.. totally,  start your own thread.. it is worth having it there. Otherwise your analysis will get lost in the comments that will come on this post.

Thank you for your comments! I just reposted here:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a thought on all of this after considering Preservation's death for awhile...

In Mistborn: Secret History, Preservation says something along the lines of "I died as soon as I broke my promise to Ati" It's also a very common theme that comes up time and time again in reference to Shards. Oaths and Promises and Agreements

Originally, I took Preservation's statement to mean that breaking his promise meant Ruin was no longer obligated to the agreement and would outright kill him, and due to Preservations nature, he could night fight back however I'm starting to think that there is something more to all this.

 

Is it possible that a shards broken promise leads directly to their death? I have a couple of theories on this:

1. It could be that there's something inherent in the nature of all Shards, that causes them to became slowly unraveled, or untied from there connection with the power upon the event that they break a promise to another Shard. Perhaps something leftover from Adonalsium? A rule he left in place to never break a promise he made to himself, or to anyone?

2. It could be linked to the agreement the shards made with eachother when they took up the Shards in the first place. A binding contract of some kind that limits them or conducts how they interact with each other.

 

In either case, there is evidence of this in both Preservations statement to Kelsier about how he died and in Honor's statement to Dalinar in his visions where he says Odium is bound to certain rules and that he would be bound by an agreement to a "contest of champions". It could be that Odium uses these binding agreements as a method for destroying other shards.

If that is the case it could also mean that Odium has taken it upon himself to eliminate any Shards which break the original agreement, seeing as he eliminated Devotion and Dominion early on and went after Cultivation and Honor soon after. We know from the letters that these Shards broke the agreement by staying together rather than going their own separate ways.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...