Trellium is A Perfect Mirror (Theory)

[Halyo_Alex]

Aaaaall right, time to see how many holes will be poked into this theory by those more knowledgeable than I.

 

So, the basic premise is that Trell (whoever or whatever they are; that's not what this theory is about) specifically designed Trellium to be the most desirable metal for the Metallic Arts, particularly for Kandra. We see this clear enough with Bleeder in Shadows of Self. It can, apparently, steal any Power (Metalborn power) or Ability (the non-power stuff that hemalurgy deals with) as a single spike, including being used as a Kandra Blessing. It can even create aggresive, durable, and powerful Constructs. This is HUGE, as anyone who's read SoS will probably agree.

Now, on to the theory part. The theory being; Trellium ALSO works for Allomancy and Feruchemy, and the effect it has is... Anything. Any metalborn ability that exists. Allomantic steel, Feruchemical Brass, it can mimic ALL of them. A Trelliummind would be a bit like a Tinmind, in that any one mind can store one power (or sense, for Tin), but if you drain it fully, you can put in a different one.

This also kind of draws on an older theory I had (but never made a post about); the "true" allomantic effect of Lerasium. I believe that Lerasium could, if an Allomancer tried (with proper Intent), be burned for any Allomantic ability, all the while strengthening the Connection to Preservation. They could act as a Mistborn while becoming a Mistborn, but with just one metal. But I digress.

The idea with this theory of Trellium being able to do anything within the bounds of the Metallic Arts also offers an explanation for why the Set seems to be attempting to breed Mistborn. They may want to be able to spike Trellium Allomancy out of them and give it to a Kandra. Imagine that, a freaking Kandra with any Allomantic effect they wanted, using just ONE spike. Absolute madness. And I feel like it lends some credence to this theory, if only theoretically.

Additionally, if it can store any Feruchemic Trait, the Set may also (less obviously) be attempting to breed Full Feruchemists (or they'll start trying soon, perhaps in The Lost Metal), and spike Trellium Feruchemy out of them. That would also be somewhat terrifying, a Kandra with access to the entire repetoire of Feruchemic effects. We already saw how lethal Bleeder was with just Steelrunning, imagine a rogue Kandra with that and more.

...the really terrifying part is if they can somehow manage to make a single spike (or equivalent when it comes to Harmony's control) that grants both Trellium Allomancy and Feruchemy simultaneously. Instant Fullborn. Instant Kandra-with-power-equal-to-the-Lord-Ruler. This is probably the longest shot in this whole theory, and loads of this is probably going to be proven inaccurate, but honestly, I don't mind. I want to refine this theory to the truth.

[Karger]

8 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

This also kind of draws on an older theory I had (but never made a post about); the "true" allomantic effect of Lerasium. I believe that Lerasium could, if an Allomancer tried (with proper Intent), be burned for any Allomantic ability, all the while strengthening the Connection to Preservation. They could act as a Mistborn while becoming a Mistborn, but with just one metal. But I digress.

It can we see Vin basically doing this with the mists.

8 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

The idea with this theory of Trellium being able to do anything within the bounds of the Metallic Arts also offers an explanation for why the Set seems to be attempting to breed Mistborn. They may want to be able to spike Trellium Allomancy out of them and give it to a Kandra. Imagine that, a freaking Kandra with any Allomantic effect they wanted, using just ONE spike. Absolute madness. And I feel like it lends some credence to this theory, if only theoretically.

They only had one kandra that we know of and she was crazy and is now dead.  I think Harmony keeps track of his people.

8 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

...the really terrifying part is if they can somehow manage to make a single spike (or equivalent when it comes to Harmony's control) that grants both Trellium Allomancy and Feruchemy simultaneously. Instant Fullborn. Instant Kandra-with-power-equal-to-the-Lord-Ruler. This is probably the longest shot in this whole theory, and loads of this is probably going to be proven inaccurate, but honestly, I don't mind. I want to refine this theory to the truth.

Same problem as above.  Also lerasium does the same thing hemolergically it steals all powers.

[Halyo_Alex]

3 hours ago, Karger said:

It can we see Vin basically doing this with the mists.

Ok, cool! Good to know there's evidence in favor of it.

3 hours ago, Karger said:

They only had one kandra that we know of and she was crazy and is now dead.  I think Harmony keeps track of his people.

Not true, there was a Kandra at the end of BoM that exploded. So there's probably yet more Kandra.

3 hours ago, Karger said:

Same problem as above.  Also lerasium does the same thing hemolergically it steals all powers.

Atium steals any one Metalborn power, Lerasium steals all human abilities (like strength, senses, memory, etc) in one spike. I'm proposing that Trellium is a wild-card like Atium, but for both Powers and Abilities. Any one of them can be stolen with Trellium, and turned into a Blessing that works with one spike instead of two.

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Not true, there was a Kandra at the end of BoM that exploded. So there's probably yet more Kandra.

That was not a Kandra.  That was the trellish equivalent.

6 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Atium steals any one Metalborn power, Lerasium steals all human abilities (like strength, senses, memory, etc) in one spike. I'm proposing that Trellium is a wild-card like Atium, but for both Powers and Abilities. Any one of them can be stolen with Trellium, and turned into a Blessing that works with one spike instead of two.

Not sure that will work particularly well.  You can only push so much investiture into a piece of metal.

[Halyo_Alex]

Just now, Karger said:

That was not a Kandra.  That was the trellish equivalent.

Wait, really? I thought it was a Kandra with a Trellium spike like Bleeder.

Just now, Karger said:

Not sure that will work particularly well.  You can only push so much investiture into a piece of metal.

I'm not saying Trellium steals literally everything at once, I'm saying you can choose to steal any one thing from the spiritweb with it.

[Karger]

6 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Wait, really? I thought it was a Kandra with a Trellium spike like Bleeder.

That would also make sense to a degree but that Kandra as you call them did not behave anything like bleeder and wouldn't the other kandra and Harmony notice if some of them went missing?  Their are only a few hundred of them.  The wiki agrees with you hang on I have to check this out.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Karger

[Halyo_Alex]

24 minutes ago, Karger said:

That would also make sense to a degree but that Kandra as you call them did not behave anything like bleeder and wouldn't the other kandra and Harmony notice if some of them went missing?  Their are only a few hundred of them.  The wiki agrees with you hang on I have to check this out.

Any luck finding out? I'm intrigued to be proven wrong.

[Karger]

50 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Any luck finding out? I'm intrigued to be proven wrong.

The coppermind agrees with you but its proof is based on these passages.

 

 

You could tell them by the way they walked. Never a stroll, never leisurely. Always fast, determined. Purposeful.

Of course, the softly glowing red eyes were another sign. So far as Suit had been able to determine, Waxillium and his fools had no knowledge of these creatures. They didn’t understand, couldn’t understand.

The Set had Faceless Immortals of its own.

But we also know that their is more then one kind of shapeshifter or disguise magic in the cosmere so that is more then a little ambiguous.  I am not entirely convinced that Suit knows what he is talking to.

[Halyo_Alex]

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

The coppermind agrees with you but its proof is based on these passages.

 

 

You could tell them by the way they walked. Never a stroll, never leisurely. Always fast, determined. Purposeful.

Of course, the softly glowing red eyes were another sign. So far as Suit had been able to determine, Waxillium and his fools had no knowledge of these creatures. They didn’t understand, couldn’t understand.

The Set had Faceless Immortals of its own.

But we also know that their is more then one kind of shapeshifter or disguise magic in the cosmere so that is more then a little ambiguous.  I am not entirely convinced that Suit knows what he is talking to.

Alright, fair enough. Still, given that this isn't supposed to be a crossover with something like, say... Lightweaving... I think it's safe to say that IS in fact a Kandra. And that the Set has multiple to give Trellium Spikes to.

[Karger]

Just now, Halyo_Alex said:

Alright, fair enough. Still, given that this isn't supposed to be a crossover with something like, say... Lightweaving... I think it's safe to say that IS in fact a Kandra. And that the Set has multiple to give Trellium Spikes to.

Um I was not just referencing Lightweaving.  I was also thinking returned, sleepless, aimians(the other kind), singers(they have forms that do this), Yolish lightweaving, any of the several Elantrian magic systems...  Considering we are looking at a worldhopping organization that seems to be run by a shardic entity.  The one power I would give my top agents would be shapeshifting.  I do not think it is anywhere close to safe to say that this is a kandra.

[Halyo_Alex]

Just now, Karger said:

Um I was not just referencing Lightweaving.  I was also thinking returned, sleepless, aimians(the other kind), singers(they have forms that do this), Yolish lightweaving, any of the several Elantrian magic systems...  Considering we are looking at a worldhopping organization that seems to be run by a shardic entity.  The one power I would give my top agents would be shapeshifting.  I do not think it is anywhere close to safe to say that this is a kandra.

That's not my point. My point is that Mistborn (at least Era 2) seems to be pretty isolated in terms of the cosmere. I'm saying ANY non-Scadrian shapeshifting is extremely unlikely. Lightweaving was just my example because, well, look at my icon. It's kind of my thing.

Also I'm not saying you're wrong, again it's just extremely unlikely that these "Faceless Immortals" are non-kandra shapeshifters from some other Shardworld. Brandon would have dropped a hint somehow alluding to this, but there's just nothing quite there in that segment to suggest it.

[Karger]

Just now, Halyo_Alex said:

Also I'm not saying you're wrong, again it's just extremely unlikely that these "Faceless Immortals" are non-kandra shapeshifters from some other Shardworld. Brandon would have dropped a hint somehow alluding to this, but there's just nothing quite there in that segment to suggest it.

We interact with quite a few worldhopers during Bands of Morning and we have WoB confirmation that some of the Set are worldhoppers.

[Halyo_Alex]

Just now, Karger said:

We interact with quite a few worldhopers during Bands of Morning and we have WoB confirmation that some of the Set are worldhoppers.

Okay fine, if some of the Set are confirmed Worldhoppers I guess there's a chance that these guys are non-kandra shapeshifters. But... It doesn't feel right, ok?! It feels... improper... Especially when we basically had a whole book about Bleeder, a kandra, with Trellium spikes.

[Karger]

6 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Okay fine, if some of the Set are confirmed Worldhoppers I guess there's a chance that these guys are non-kandra shapeshifters. But... It doesn't feel right, ok?! It feels... improper... Especially when we basically had a whole book about Bleeder, a kandra, with Trellium spikes.

I kind of am feeling the other way around.  Trell is likely not native to scadrial.  Harmony showed Wax an invading force that he does not understand.  The Set seems to work for Trell.  Trell claims to want to rule multiple worlds.  Why has no one mentioned or even hinted at the disappearance of other Kandra?  Remember they are all on first name basis with each other.  Why did the Set not have the Kandra they held captive spiked if they do so on a routine basis?  They held them for quite some time.  Why are these wired shapeshifters nothing like Kandra.  Why do their eyes glow and why did Bleeder's not?  If the Set has Kandra double agents then why is it a problem that Wax has the bands?

Edited July 23, 2019 by Karger

[Halyo_Alex]

Just now, Karger said:

I kind of am feeling the other way around.  Trell is likely not native to scadrial.  Harmony showed Wax an invading force that he does not understand.  The Set seems to work for Trell.  Trell claims to want to rule multiple worlds.  Why has no one mentioned or even hinted at the disappearance of other Kandra?  Remember they are all on first name basis with each other.  Why did the Set not have the Kandra they held captive spiked if they do so on a routine basis?  They held them for quite some time.  Why are these wired shapeshifters nothing like Kandra.  Why do their eyes glow and why did Bleeder's not?

Fine, I'll accept that these may not actually be Kandra. But I don't want to definitively agree with it. I will when there's proper canon evidence for it.

I know I sound like a grumpy little kid, but... This was a thing I strongly believed ever since reading BoM.

[Karger]

Just now, Halyo_Alex said:

Fine, I'll accept that these may not actually be Kandra. But I don't want to definitively agree with it. I will when there's proper canon evidence for it.

I know I sound like a grumpy little kid, but... This was a thing I strongly believed ever since reading BoM.

I have certainly been there.

[Halyo_Alex]

Anyway, we need to get back on topic. This thread is about what Trellium's Allomantic and Feruchemical abilities may be, not whether or not that one "faceless immortal" is actually a Kandra or not.

[+Harrycrapper]

I'd like to interject another possibility. The way I read what the creature was at the end of BoM was that the Set had found mistwraiths and gave them Hemalurgic spikes made of that metal that was in Bleeder(be it Trellium or whatever). If Sazed couldn't find Bleeder when she had one, then he probably can't see or influence another "Kandra" with just one of those spikes(possibly more too). And he wouldn't know about it because the method of hiding from Ruin and Preservation was probably well documented - caverns surrounded by metal like the ones from the end of HoA - and they were probably created in a place like that. That's how I read it at least.

[Halyo_Alex]

4 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

I'd like to interject another possibility. The way I read what the creature was at the end of BoM was that the Set had found mistwraiths and gave them Hemalurgic spikes made of that metal that was in Bleeder(be it Trellium or whatever). If Sazed couldn't find Bleeder when she had one, then he probably can't see or influence another "Kandra" with just one of those spikes(possibly more too). And he wouldn't know about it because the method of hiding from Ruin and Preservation was probably well documented - caverns surrounded by metal like the ones from the end of HoA - and they were probably created in a place like that. That's how I read it at least.

Okay, that works. Making fresh Kandra from Mistwraiths that have never been Kandra before, that works. I think.

[Karger]

17 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Okay, that works. Making fresh Kandra from Mistwraiths that have never been Kandra before, that works. I think.

That does work and makes much more sense.  I do not think that this metal can be burned by anyone for any effect though as the humans on scadrial do not have any relation to this other investiture.

[Halyo_Alex]

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

That does work and makes much more sense.  I do not think that this metal can be burned by anyone for any effect though as the humans on scadrial do not have any relation to this other investiture.

You would be right, if there wasn't a WoB stating that a shard (or other Shard-like entity like Trell might be) would have to specifically designate effects for their god metal to have in the Metallic Arts. So Trell could have deliberately made Trellium do these very desirable effects that would make Trellium-Spiked Kandra extremely powerful, but it needs the Set to be able to spike Trellium Allomancy or Feruchemy out of a Mistborn/Feruchemist.

[Karger]

45 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

You would be right, if there wasn't a WoB stating that a shard (or other Shard-like entity like Trell might be) would have to specifically designate effects for their god metal to have in the Metallic Arts. So Trell could have deliberately made Trellium do these very desirable effects that would make Trellium-Spiked Kandra extremely powerful, but it needs the Set to be able to spike Trellium Allomancy or Feruchemy out of a Mistborn/Feruchemist.

Although I am not sure if Trell could change this once it has been designated at least not easily.  Side note.  If Trell is Autonomy then it makes sense that his metal would work like this.  Ruin's turns people into officiant killers, Preservation's helps you survive, Harmony's is unstable physically and Autonomy's breaks off  any piece of someone else and allows you to retain your mental independence. 

[Halyo_Alex]

28 minutes ago, Karger said:

Although I am not sure if Trell could change this once it has been designated at least not easily.  Side note.  If Trell is Autonomy then it makes sense that his metal would work like this.  Ruin's turns people into officiant killers, Preservation's helps you survive, Harmony's is unstable physically and Autonomy's breaks off  any piece of someone else and allows you to retain your mental independence. 

(Technically Autonomy's Avatar (Bavadin) is female, but with her gimmick of making Avatars of all sorts of genders and appearances, it's not particularly relevant)

But yeah, that's a good logic for it! If Trellium (or Bavadinium, if it is Autonomy) does act as a wild card in the Metallic Arts, you could be free from any other dependence on any other metal. Trellium would be the universal metal, capable of giving you any effect. Trellium mistings and Ferrings could use whatever power they wanted. Complete freedom of self. 

[Karger]

11 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

(Technically Autonomy's Avatar (Bavadin) is female, but with her gimmick of making Avatars of all sorts of genders and appearances, it's not particularly relevant)

I do not want to have this discussion.  Brandon himself alternates gender terms.  Just use whichever is more convenient.

12 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Trellium would be the universal metal, capable of giving you any effect. Trellium mistings and Ferrings could use whatever power they wanted. Complete freedom of self. 

No mistings and I doubt ferrings unless Trell makes his own planet.  Metallic arts are because people from scadrial have a spark of Preservation in them due to their method of creation.  They have no relation to any other shard.

[Halyo_Alex]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

I do not want to have this discussion.  Brandon himself alternates gender terms.  Just use whichever is more convenient.

No mistings and I doubt ferrings unless Trell makes his own planet.  Metallic arts are because people from scadrial have a spark of Preservation in them due to their method of creation.  They have no relation to any other shard.

Right, right. But Mistborns could have Allomantic Trellium spiked out of them.