Moash-Vyre, what’s in store for him?

[Benedictify]

I’m wondering what’s going to happen with Vyre. It seems like there is destined to be a confrontation between he and Kaladin, probably many. Are they turning him into a new supervillain like Amaram? The way Khen and the other parshmen “wanted to be near him” reminded me of the bridgemen’s devotion to Kaladin. Is he taking over from Jezrien in some way, being that he killed him (or trapped him...?) and he has Jez’s Honorblade.

 

Anyway I’m rambling a bit. What do you think Vyre’s role or purpose will be?

[go_go_gragdet]

He will kill Odium by throwing him down the Death Star's reactor shaft.

[+TheFoxQR]

Personally I suspect Sanderson is doing something sneaky - each book isn't just introducing one order, it's introducing two. One for the Knights Radiant, and one their Void Knight counterpart. Moash is being prepared to be the Windrunner equivalent on the Voidbinding chart.

He is either Kaladin's antithesis, or a pawn in one of Cultivation's many plays against Odium.

Edited July 20, 2019 by TheFoxQR

[DocHoliday]

My very real concern about Vyre is Odium. There is a WoB floating around that the Herald's Surges were powered directly by Honor, now Vyre is in control of that conduit of limitless Investiture. Even if it's not Stormlight, Voidlight appears to serve as an analog.

Jezrien has been known as the Stormfather for a very long time.

  I have a sinking feeling we're going to see what happens when one decides to create a super low pressure system above Azir or another populated city. Anything from suffucating a city to redirecting highstorms to massive decompression effects are possible. It'll be Ashyn written small all over again. Don't get me started on Gravitation; I'm not ready for that.

[Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker]

Moash is going to eventually become a Skybreaker, I think. 

Think about it, in WOR Syl tells kaladin that he shouldn’t kill Amaram because he is not a Skybreaker. Obviously he doesn’t, however Moash took the direct opposite approach here and killed Elhokar. Meaning that Moash believes in the same peverted Justice that Syl compares to the Skybreakers.

In addition, Moash agrees with Nale that the Singers are the rightful owners of Roshar. And, like Nale, Moash has sided with the Singers and with Odium in this conflict.

In terms of the story, this makes sense, as Moash has always served as a “Dark Kaladin.” This while further add to this balance as Kaladin represents doing the right thing, while Moash represents vengeance.

Eventually I think that Moash will take up the Shards of Honor and Odium, and take on the mantle of “Vengeance.” The attribute that has governed his life.

 

 

TD;LR: Moash becomes a Skybreaker and eventually the Shard of Vengeance.

[cometaryorbit]

15 hours ago, DocHoliday said:

My very real concern about Vyre is Odium. There is a WoB floating around that the Herald's Surges were powered directly by Honor, now Vyre is in control of that conduit of limitless Investiture.

I think that only worked when Honor was actually alive. The trapped soul of a Herald might have other applications though (a Herald is a Cognitive Shadow, which are apparently basically spren on Roshar, so a Herald soul in a gem might work for a fabrial).

16 hours ago, DocHoliday said:

Jezrien has been known as the Stormfather for a very long time.

I think the identification of Jezrien with the Stormfather is just folk mythology* that has built up over thousands of years without the Heralds around. He was a Windrunner, but that was due to his Honorblade. (And without the direct feed from Honor, it's less efficient than a true KR Windrunner's powers.) So I don't think Vyre will get any special storm powers beyond what he gets from the Honorblade - the same powers Szeth had in WOK/WOR.

*The ardentia don't seem to believe it, given the way they react to Dalinar and Navani's decision to have the Stormfather marry them - if they thought he was the chief Herald, they would recognize him as a source of religious authority.

[DocHoliday]

On 7/21/2019 at 3:56 AM, cometaryorbit said:

I think that only worked when Honor was actually alive. The trapped soul of a Herald might have other applications though (a Herald is a Cognitive Shadow, which are apparently basically spren on Roshar, so a Herald soul in a gem might work for a fabrial).

I think the identification of Jezrien with the Stormfather is just folk mythology* that has built up over thousands of years without the Heralds around. He was a Windrunner, but that was due to his Honorblade. (And without the direct feed from Honor, it's less efficient than a true KR Windrunner's powers.) So I don't think Vyre will get any special storm powers beyond what he gets from the Honorblade - the same powers Szeth had in WOK/WOR.

*The ardentia don't seem to believe it, given the way they react to Dalinar and Navani's decision to have the Stormfather marry them - if they thought he was the chief Herald, they would recognize him as a source of religious authority.

We have proof via Bands of Mourning that Shardic magic systems can be hacked by another Shard, I see no legitimate reason why Odium couldn't do .the same. Jezrien being knownn as the Stormfather is definitely a matter of Mythology; I however point out that he alone of the Heralds gathered this misnomer title. To me that is indicative of an event or events that stuck in he minds of the people. 

Finally Vyre won't gain any special "storm powers". He has access to the Wind Runner Surges and, as you agreed, the honorblade can be fed Investiture directly. By who, for who are the only things up for interpretation.

 

[Toaster Retribution]

On 2019-07-20 at 10:40 PM, Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker said:

Moash is going to eventually become a Skybreaker, I think. 

Think about it, in WOR Syl tells kaladin that he shouldn’t kill Amaram because he is not a Skybreaker. Obviously he doesn’t, however Moash took the direct opposite approach here and killed Elhokar. Meaning that Moash believes in the same peverted Justice that Syl compares to the Skybreakers.

In addition, Moash agrees with Nale that the Singers are the rightful owners of Roshar. And, like Nale, Moash has sided with the Singers and with Odium in this conflict.

In terms of the story, this makes sense, as Moash has always served as a “Dark Kaladin.” This while further add to this balance as Kaladin represents doing the right thing, while Moash represents vengeance.

Eventually I think that Moash will take up the Shards of Honor and Odium, and take on the mantle of “Vengeance.” The attribute that has governed his life.

 

 

TD;LR: Moash becomes a Skybreaker and eventually the Shard of Vengeance.

Skybreakers aren’t evil or dark though. They are very different from Windrunners, but have always been the good guys. Sure, they are Team Odium now, but that is because they are following a madman who is following another madman. The Skybreaers have fallen victim to their own rigidity when it comes to following. 

I do think that the idea of Moash taking up Odium is pretty nice. I doubt he picks up Honor though. Just doesnt feel right to me. Also, pulling the same ”merging-Shards-move” in his two major Cosmere series feels like a wierd choice for Brandon to make. 

Personally, I think Moash will end up as a street vendor selling chouta. 

[Subvisual Haze]

Redemption arc with some sort of heroic sacrifice to redeem himself to the audience.  Notably his Bridge 4 tattoo wasn't placed on his forehead but rather on his upper arm.  It's hidden from view, but it's probably still there, just like Kaladin's slave tattoo remains.  So much symbolism!

Him killing Jezrien and taking his sword may have opened the possibility for Moash to inherit Jezrien's place in the Oathpact.  Getting tortured on Braize to hold back the Fused for a while would go a long way to atone for his bad choices.

[agrabes]

On 7/23/2019 at 8:27 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

Skybreakers aren’t evil or dark though. They are very different from Windrunners, but have always been the good guys. Sure, they are Team Odium now, but that is because they are following a madman who is following another madman. The Skybreaers have fallen victim to their own rigidity when it comes to following. 

I do think that the idea of Moash taking up Odium is pretty nice. I doubt he picks up Honor though. Just doesnt feel right to me. Also, pulling the same ”merging-Shards-move” in his two major Cosmere series feels like a wierd choice for Brandon to make. 

Personally, I think Moash will end up as a street vendor selling chouta. 

I wouldn't say Skybreakers aren't dark - they are kind of dark as an order.  At least, some of them are and always have been.  They are the cops who hold you to the letter of the law just because they think it's right, even when they know everyone is worse off if they do.  They don't really care about people, only the law.  In some cases that can lead to a valiant, noble hero, sometimes it's kind of a tragic, but noble story, and sometimes it can be vindictive.  I think the Skybreakers have been primarily in the vindictive territory ever since they went underground.

I would also say though that the Skybreakers aren't on Odium's side - they are on the Singers' side which Odium also claims he is on.  I don't think Nale is going to be taking orders from Odium, though he might take orders from the Fused.  If he can be convinced that the interests of the Singers and Odium aren't in alignment, he will still actively fight Odium.

[cometaryorbit]

On 7/22/2019 at 5:52 PM, DocHoliday said:

We have proof via Bands of Mourning that Shardic magic systems can be hacked by another Shard, I see no legitimate reason why Odium couldn't do .the same. Jezrien being knownn as the Stormfather is definitely a matter of Mythology; I however point out that he alone of the Heralds gathered this misnomer title. To me that is indicative of an event or events that stuck in he minds of the people. 

Finally Vyre won't gain any special "storm powers". He has access to the Wind Runner Surges and, as you agreed, the honorblade can be fed Investiture directly. By who, for who are the only things up for interpretation.

 

Oh, OK, I misunderstood - I thought you were talking about something like the Stormfather's power to cause highstorms. Yeah, a really huge-scale application of Adhesion could cause all kinds of messy weather/atmospheric effects.

I kind of doubt Odium is going to be able to fuel the Honorblade directly, since it's a chunk of Honor's Investiture in physical form. It's possible, though - maybe by some mechanism like Sja-anat corrupting spren, since the Honorblade is kind of like an inert/static/non-living spren.

EDIT: The Stormfather in OB does say that some humans confuse Kalak with him, as well as Jezrien, though.

Edited July 26, 2019 by cometaryorbit
Kalak as Stormfather

[bxcnch]

On 7/20/2019 at 10:40 PM, Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker said:

Moash is going to eventually become a Skybreaker, I think. 

Think about it, in WOR Syl tells kaladin that he shouldn’t kill Amaram because he is not a Skybreaker. Obviously he doesn’t, however Moash took the direct opposite approach here and killed Elhokar. Meaning that Moash believes in the same peverted Justice that Syl compares to the Skybreakers.

In addition, Moash agrees with Nale that the Singers are the rightful owners of Roshar. And, like Nale, Moash has sided with the Singers and with Odium in this conflict.

In terms of the story, this makes sense, as Moash has always served as a “Dark Kaladin.” This while further add to this balance as Kaladin represents doing the right thing, while Moash represents vengeance.

Eventually I think that Moash will take up the Shards of Honor and Odium, and take on the mantle of “Vengeance.” The attribute that has governed his life.

 

 

TD;LR: Moash becomes a Skybreaker and eventually the Shard of Vengeance.

I kind of disagree with the idea that Moash is a very righteous or law-abiding person. I think Moash cares nothing for laws and this kind of justice. His entire character arc since WoK has always been about self-deception. He has severe trust issues at first before eventually joining Kaladin. When he's in the battle camps he wants to kill Elhokar and pretends that it's "because it's the best for Alethkar" and that "Dalinar would make for a better king anyway". But we all know that Moash hates Alethkar because of its elitism and slavery, to the point that he even joins the Singers in OB. His faith in Dalinar also comes out of nowhere - especially considering Moash's severe trust issues and his contempt for lighteyes. Later he joins the Singers' for almost no reason at all - except that he hates Alethkar and might get a chance at revenge. And suddenly he is convinced of the Singers' righteous ownership of the land. Also there's his "I am what society has made me"-justification - that's an excuse you'd expect to hear from a serial killer - not the "fighter for justice" Moash pretends to be. In short:: Moash is and has always been about nothing but finding poor excuses for horrible acts that he commits out of selfish reasons. He went from "It's the best for Alethkar" to "Let's bring death and destruction to the human opressors" in a week or two. I don't think Moash is capable of swearing allegiance to an external cause because he'll abandon it in the moment it cannot justify his actions anymore. 

In fact I think Moash will have major problems with a certain Skybreaker. The Moash-Szeth-relation will, in my opinion, be just as important as Moash-Kaladin. Think about it::

1.)Szeth is a magic assassin with Jezrien's Honorblade, working against Dalinar. He obeys all commands of his master without showing emotion. The main enemy he faces are Dalinar and his knights. 2.) Then - after a fight with Kaladin - his life changes forever. He meets a Heralt, gains a magic blade and is renamed (Son-Son-Vallano -> Son-Neturo). 3.) Now he fights for his former enemy, the (de-facto)leader of Mankind and starts a "crusade" to take revenge on the Shin. 

1.)Moash is a former bridgeman and shardbearer working for Dalinar. He is on a "crusade" to take revenge on Elhokar. 2.)Then - after a fight with Kaladin, his life changes forever. He meets a Herald, gains a magic blade and is renamed. 3.)Now he's a magic assassin with Jezrien's Honorblade working against Dalinar. He obeys all commands of his master without any emotion. His new main enemy are the Knights Radiant.

Forget the "Dark-Kaladin"-thing. Moash isn't "dark Kaladin". He's "Dark Szeth". Their biography's read after another are basically a Ketek - Honorblade/Villain/fights Kaladin/Hero//Hero/fights Kaladin/Villain/Honorblade. There's no way that's a coincidence. I am also convinced that this won't be lost on Szeth - he will fight with Kaladin because Kaladin wants to save Moash while Szeth will try to bring his "successor" to justice - maybe as some sort of atonement. At least that's my theory. Szeth's backstory in Shinovar will only come in SA5, so he probably won't have mucht to do in SA4 and I feel like Moash is perfect for bringing in the Honor-Law-conflict between Skybreakers and Windrunners that has only been hinted at so far. Also Szeth vs Kaladin would add symmetry to the series (SA2 and SA4) and symmetry is obviously an important motif in the series.

Edited August 30, 2019 by bxcnch

[rjl]

I wonder if Moash will end up being Odium's champion now he's (assumedly) given up on Dalinar for that. If not well... I mostly just hope he doesn't get much screen time in book 4 I don't particularly enjoy reading his POV.