False Religions of the Cosmere

[Araris Valerian]

To my knowledge, in the cosmere we haven't encountered a religion that is true "in world". Most religions we have seen, such as Vorinism, Survivorism, or Shu-Korath, are focused on the attributes of a Shard or an individual, which we know to be human(oid)s with potentially lots of investiture. To that end, what exactly is the point of the religions in any of Brandon's books? They certainly provide hope, influence culture, and interact with magic systems in interesting ways. However, in my personal experience, the most powerful part of religion is that when you believe a religion to be true, it adds a sense of meaning and direction to your life. Kelsier, TLR, and the Shards don't have any evident (to us) authority to do such a thing, and yet their religions all offer some sort of greater meaning to life. If someone could prove to me that my religion was created by some sort of sudo-god, I would probably become rather distressed.

I'm pretty sure Brandon has mentioned some sort of "Truth" going on in the background of the Cosmere that he doesn't want to elaborate very much on, but I think the closest we've gotten to this is Dalinar's struggle to understand Honor's death.

Anyway, I guess I was wondering what other people's thoughts are on this topic. Does it bother you (that basically everyone in the cosmere believes in lies, and that Shards are willing to allow religions about themselves to be perpetuated)? Do you think you would be an atheist in the cosmere, given what you know about it and its religions?

Edited July 19, 2019 by Araris Valerian

[not an Evil Librarian]

I don't know if I would necessarily call these religions "False". I think that it is subjective whether or not these beings are actually gods. take the shards for example. They may not fit the definition of gods by most modern religions, however, they would most certainly be divine according to the ancient greeks. The Returned are beings who come back from the dead with seemingly divine power, heal unhealable wounds and diseases, foretell the future, and sacrifice themselves for the betterment of the world. They do many of the same things that Christians worship Jesus Christ for. 

I don't think that just because we know the mechanics of Godhood necessarily means that it is no longer Godhood. This is one of my favorite things about Brandon's writing. He doesn't specifically say whether or not any one side of any argument is true, but leaves it up to interpretation. You can interpret these beings as gods and believe in the religions, you can interpret these beings as simply powerful entities that have no inherent divinity and there is no god in the Cosmere, or you can believe that there is some kind of true divinity that we don't know about, but must have faith in.

[Elegy]

It should also be noted that basically the entire cast of Mistborn consists of atheists. Them not believing the lies (of Lord Ruler, in that case) is actually the point of their whole mission in Final Empire, which I guess could be read as a sign that Brandon is aware of this and consciously reflected on it in that story.

[Karger]

I am going to refer you to Vin and Saze in Mistborn: The Final Empire.  The fact that Kelseir was an ordinary man does not mean that he lacks the authority to found a religion or that he cannot inspire faith and belief.  I would also like to refer you to Lightsong.  Lightsong does not inspire faith in Scoot because he is a God he inspires it because he is proof that goodness exists and that someone has a plan.  Even the Kandra's faith is not based on any belife that preservation is infallible they just have faith that he is and do the best they can in the mean time.  I personally would not except any of the shards or Adonalsium as God but that does not prevent me from believing that their is a God and I would keep that faith even if I did live in the Cosmere.

[Araris Valerian]

1 minute ago, Elegy said:

It should also be noted that basically the entire cast of Mistborn consists of atheists. Them not believing the lies (of Lord Ruler, in that case) is actually the point of their whole mission in Final Empire, which I guess could be read as a sign that Brandon is aware of this and consciously reflected on it in that story.

That's a good point. Part of what I was trying to get at in my post represented in most of Kelsier's crew, who sort of see what's going on behind the scenes, and consequently don't believe in any of the religions they are exposed to.

However, Sazed's story arc doesn't really reflect this, and he is kind of the focal point of religion in the Mistborn series. Neither do the apparent religious inclinations of the post-HoA Scadrians.

[Weltall]

30 minutes ago, Araris Valerian said:

However, Sazed's story arc doesn't really reflect this, and he is kind of the focal point of religion in the Mistborn series. Neither do the apparent religious inclinations of the post-HoA Scadrians.

Bear in mind that the Survivorists are right, just not for the real reasons: While they believe he's a messiah figure because of the ruse he and OreSeur set up, that doesn't change the fact that Kelsier did survive death and was (at least briefly) the closest thing to godhood in the Cosmere. And the Pathians are worshipping Sazed who (re)made their world for them and is the heir to the power that literally created Scadrial, so it's hard to just dismiss that as a false belief. That he's not an omnipotent, omniscient creator of everything doesn't mean he can't be considered a god.

Anyhow, to answer the original question that would depend entirely on where in the Cosmere I was born and whether I had any inkling of the big picture. We know a great deal more about how the universe works than most characters living within it, like the fact that the Shards were originally mortals (not counting any potential dragon Vessels) who took up fragments of what used to be a much greater power. Most people aren't going to know that, so when they see a Returned who is an idealized physical specimen and possesses divine powers (or you are a Returned and encounter Edgli) you're probably going to say 'yep, that's a god'. Whether you think they're worthy of worship is another question. Also, whether your worldview can encompass the idea of other people having their own gods, something that most ancient civilizations were quite happy to wrap their minds around. So just knowing that there's some other world out there with another Shard on it doesn't necessarily mean automatically rejecting the notion that the Shard on your own world is a god.

So yeah, it would be a lot easier to imagine being an atheist if you're from Silverlight (with the caveat above) and harder to imagine it on most worlds, though not impossible. Jasnah's an obvious case in point and she did it without any Cosmere awareness. So there are some situations where atheism is a tenable position even without big picture knowledge, but much harder to imagine reaching that conclusion if you're in somewhere like Fjordel or Hallandren where the supernatural elements of religion are right there for everyone to see.

[First Witness]

I think it'd be way easier to come around on Atheisim in T'Tleir than almost anywhere else, because you can see the -fallibility- of the court of gods. 

But, the question is entirely 'What religion were you indoctrinated into at birth (as religion is typically passed)?'  'Did you encounter events that contradicted those beliefs?'  'Are you Cosmere aware?'

[+TheFoxQR]

We literally have WoB that the theme of the Cosmere is to explore what happens when Men are given the power of the Diety.

[Pathfinder]

I would see things very much like jasnah. The shards exist and have power, but that doesn't mean they are deserving of worship. If I could theoretically attain the same level of power, then they have no greater right to rule over me than anyone else. So I would still be an atheist 

 

"You’re so sure he isn’t real,” Shallan said. “The Almighty.”

“I have no more proof of him than I do of the Thaylen Passions, Nu Ralik of the Purelake, or any other religion.”

“And the Heralds? You don’t think they existed?”

“I don’t know,” Jasnah said. “There are many things in this world that I don’t understand. For example, there is some slight proof that both the Stormfather and the Almighty are real creatures—simply powerful spren, such as the Nightwatcher.”

“Then he would be real.”

“I never claimed he was not,” Jasnah said. “I merely claimed that I do not accept him as God, nor do I feel any inclination to worship him."

[not an Evil Librarian]

I don't think that living in the Cosmere would change anybody's mind. everybody already understands that there are plenty of real false religions out there, and that doesn't change our religious beliefs. 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, First Witness said:

I think it'd be way easier to come around on Atheisim in T'Tleir than almost anywhere else, because you can see the -fallibility- of the court of gods.

I disagree. If you lived in T'Tlier, you would have a different view on divinity than what you currently have, and you would not see fallibility as a problem for a god.

as for myself, the only known being that I would, if not worship, support as God is Harmony. From what I've seen, he is the only one of these gods that I feel is worthy of worship. Not because he is perfect or infallible, but because he is trying his hardest to be the best divinity that he can be. which is something I don't really see with any other "god" in the Cosmere. I would, however, probably believe in a power higher than the shards. I would only truly worship the God Beyond because that is more in line with my current religious beliefs. 

[cometaryorbit]

10 hours ago, Araris Valerian said:

To my knowledge, in the cosmere we haven't encountered a religion that is true "in world".

The old Terris (and later kandra) religion appears to have been basically 100% right, actually.

Sure, Preservation isn't truly God in the sense of being genuinely absolute, but they didn't believe him to be that either.

(Ironically, despite its oppressive tyranny, TLR's religion was largely factually right too. TLR didn't claim omniscience and omnipotence, only immortality, he described himself as the "Sliver of Infinity" - something like an 'avatar' of true divinity achieved through the Well of Ascension - not as the entirety of God.)

I mean, with my own RL beliefs I'd say that the Shards (much less TLR!) aren't truly worthy of worship as God, but that relies on knowledge that very few people (Khriss, Hoid, etc.) have in-world. Many of these beings would seem very divine if you met them personally, without the background knowledge...

On 7/19/2019 at 5:41 PM, Araris Valerian said:

 Does it bother you (that basically everyone in the cosmere believes in lies, and that Shards are willing to allow religions about themselves to be perpetuated)?

Well, not all the Shards are particularly 'good', and I'm not sure the nicer ones claim anything false. The Vorin worship of Honor as the absolute Almighty is something that's developed after millennia without real contact with him - in Dalinar's visions Honor himself doesn't come across that way.

Harmony certainly doesn't seem to claim anything false - he admits to being limited, and refuses to be worshiped in the usual sense (ritual etc), just asks that people do good and take a little time to talk to him.

And some people aren't satisfied with that - the concept of the God Beyond does exist on Scadrial (Wayne mentions it once).

22 hours ago, Weltall said:

Most people aren't going to know that, so when they see a Returned who is an idealized physical specimen and possesses divine powers (or you are a Returned and encounter Edgli) you're probably going to say 'yep, that's a god'. Whether you think they're worthy of worship is another question. Also, whether your worldview can encompass the idea of other people having their own gods, something that most ancient civilizations were quite happy to wrap their minds around. So just knowing that there's some other world out there with another Shard on it doesn't necessarily mean automatically rejecting the notion that the Shard on your own world is a god.

Yeah - my own RL beliefs mean that "an un-aging person with superpowers" isn't enough to qualify as divine/worthy of worship to me. But that's basically all the Greek and Norse gods were; the Norse even believed that their gods were ultimately mortal, destined to die at Ragnarok and be replaced for the next cycle.

[First Witness]

Yeah,  but you're conflating your belief now with what you would believe in another life.  Those two things aren't the same.  You don't get religion by chance.  You get religion by being taught it or through trauma that instills it.  

 

So,  just because you believe in a god in your human life is not an indication you'd believe such if you were born on Nalthis.

[Grytorm]

Greek gods were a bit more than mortal in a few stories from what cool youtube videos have told me.

As for the religions that have shown up, I think the religions present in Warbreaker seem to be close to accurate. Whether or not Endowment cares about the worship of herself or the Returned isn't clear. But she takes an interest of some sort expressed through the returned. And religion as it shows up in Elantris also seems divinely inspired after a fashion. Shu Dereth isn't really the one and only true religion. But it reflects a worldview passed down indirectly from Dominion through the Skaze.