Hide + Survive

[+Child of Hodor]

Listening to the Shardcast on Germany WoBs a thought struck me: are we sure the Shard that is only trying to Hide + Survive isn't Cultivation? I hope not, I was/am fully on board with Wisdom or a synonym as a Shard. But I had this sinking feeling. 

The original WoB:

Quote

Chaos

Give us the name of a Shard's intent we have not seen before.

Brandon Sanderson

There is one who just wants to hide and survive.

General Signed Books 2011 (Nov. 8, 2011)

Cultivation was mentioned by Tanavast in the last Vision of tWoK. We had not seen Cultivation yet. It depends on how Brandon interpreted the request and if he remembered Cultivation was mentioned once when he signed this.

He didn't really answer the question because Hide + Survive was later clarified to not have much to do with the Shard's Intent. There is also confusion about whether the Shard is on a planet or not.  https://wob.coppermind.net/events/6/#e326

In the footnote to this WoB it says there is one Shard that has no planet and a different Shard that is the Hide + Survive Shard. Implying that the Hide + Survive Shard has a planet, but it's confusing.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/124/#e1805

Hiding

Cultivation is in hiding. Wyndle thinks Cultivation has given up on humanity and withdrawn. That would fit with a Shard being primarily focusing on their own survival via hiding. When we meet her she has a dim view of humanity and chooses to alter Dalinar because she thinks it will be useful to have a piece of him even if he joins Odium. Very utilitarian. 

Honor has a greater religious presence as the Almighty on Roshar in modern day. Odium has a bigger modern religious presence (The Passions). Cultivation is largely forgotten, she is mentioned as an old pagan goddess, once. A Shard that's been dead for ~2,000 years and a Shard whose main forces have not been on the planet for ~4,500 years are better remembered than the one that has been alive and on the planet the whole time. It's like she wanted people to forget about her, like when she wiped Dalinar's memory of her. Part of her going stealth mode.

Quote

"I'll kill the other one too, eventually. She's hidden herself somewhere ..." Odium in OB Ch. 57

"Mother has given up on your kind. I can feel it. She doesn't care any longer. Now that He's gone ..." Wyndle WoR I-9 Lift 

"YOU GOT WHAT YOU DESERVED. THE TRUTH YOU HAVE CRAFTED FOR YOURSELVES. ...  A CAREFUL EXCISION TO LET YOU GROW. THE COST WILL BE HIGH...IT WILL DO ME WELL TO HAVE A PART OF YOU, EVEN IF YOU ULTIMATELY BECOME HIS." OB Ch. 114 The Cost

 

Surviving

Surviving is tangentially related to Cultivation's Intent because things have to still exist in order to grow and change. Could say that for most Shards, but she is more associated with lifeforms and the ways they develop than most Shards. Evolution drives most change in the natural world and that is based on survival of the fittest.  

The Diagram came about after Mr. T visited the valley and was changed by either the Nightwatcher or Cultivation. Either way Cultivation's influence is in the Diagram and they are focused on survival at any cost. Cultivation is focused on her own survival and this group brought about by her influence is also scarily utilitarian and single-minded about saving some humans at the cost of most.  

I notice the similarity in the stressing of how high "the cost" would be between what she says to Dalinar and this. 

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"Q: For what essential must we strive? A: The essential of preservation, to shelter a seed of humanity through the coming storm. Q: What cost must we bear? A: The cost is irrelevant. Mankind must survive." WoR Ch. 79 Epigraph. 

The recent WoB discussed on the podcast. 

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Paleo (paraphrased)

Is Wisdom a Shard? If so, how bad does it want to survive?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There is a Shard with a similar intent. The Shard has realized that survival might not be the most desirable/important.

Footnote: Paleo later asked Brandon for clarification on this one because he couldn't quite remember the survival part when he wrote it down. Brandon stressed again what the Shard has realized.
Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 I find it odd that in zero appearances in the books this mystery Shard has had a change of heart.  It's possible, clearly Hoid and others are having adventures off page. But we at least meet Hoid, Kelsier and Khriss. Maybe there is a Wisdom: Secret History going on. 

I still like the Wisdom Shard and I have a hard time believing that people have been asking Brandon about this mystery Hide + Survive shard for 8 years like it is not one we've heard the Intent for and he's never corrected the initial assumption. Maybe he doesn't think it's a big deal and he has said he doesn't want to give any new info on Shards outside of the books because he doesn't want to be locked in. 

When I think about what Cultivation's strategy has been since Honor's death it does fit Hide + Survive. The latest WoB indicates a change in strategy or attitude and I think it fits a Shard that has been seen in the last 8 years more than one we've never met. Perhaps, Cultivation has realized hiding won't work against Odium and has been switching up her approach a bit. 

One day we'll have our minds blown by all the seeds she has planted while in hiding. 

Edited July 16, 2019 by Child of Hodor

[RShara]

I don't think Cultivation is hiding. I think that she's just subtle and playing the long game. The hiding and surviving Shard is actually not involved in any planet or struggle, iirc.

Quote

Gavin-son-son-Odegard

How does Cultivation figure in this conflict between Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

So, what people assume is that Cultivation is hiding. I would disagree with that. People in-world would assume that.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

[+Child of Hodor]

6 minutes ago, RShara said:

I don't think Cultivation is hiding. I think that she's just subtle and playing the long game. The hiding and surviving Shard is actually not involved in any planet or struggle, iirc.

She is more active than Odium thinks, but she can be hiding and working on things on the sly. She was revered alongside Honor in the days of the Knights Radiant, there is a huge mural of her in Urithiru in the room Shallan found and now almost no one knows of her but they still know the Almighty. Her spren think she has withdrawn. She almost never visits the Nightmother. 

"YOU MUST FORGIVE MY DAUGHTER. the woman said. THIS IS THE FIRST TIME IN CENTURIES I'VE COME PERSONALLY TO SPEAK WITH ONE OF YOU." OB Ch. 114

She's made herself scarce. She's doing things, but doesn't want to be seen doing them. 

Location

One WoB I linked has a footnote indicates the one off planet is not the Hide + Survive Shard, but there is a lot of confusion around this issue. Footnote: The questioner seems to be conflating two separate Shards in his question. There is the Shard that wants to hide and survive and another that is not on a planet.https://wob.coppermind.net/events/6/#e326

Here is another where the questioner asks about the Shard and says they are on an uninhabited world. Brandon refuses to give any information, which might have been taken as confirmation that it is on an uninhabited world because he doesn't correct the questioner, but Brandon might not have corrected them because as he says he doesn't want to give information. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/7/#e7043

One where the questioner says the hiding Shard is in outer space and Brandon doesn't correct them. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/6/#e326

Ingenuity

Here is one where we don't here the question, but he says the Shard that is hiding is very intelligent. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/120/#e7889

Ingenuity is a synonym for intelligence and here are two where he hints Ingenuity is a Shard. 

Quote

Questioner

If you were entrusted with a Shard of Adonalsium, which Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Ummm... Heh heh heh... maybe Ingenuity. 

Sofia signing (March 28, 2017)

Chaos

Is Ingenuity a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Umm... *long pause* Maybe. *smiles slyly*

MisCon 2018 (May 26, 2018)

So it is Ingenuity NOT on any planet and the planet it is not on is uninhabited.  

 

 

[Weltall]

I think that you're relying way too much on the idea that Brandon forgot that he'd already revealed Cultivation to us. Which we know he hasn't, check out the dates on these two WoBs:

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Chaos

It's a little odd that Preservation would inherently give up its power to fuel Allomancy, because you'd think he would preserve himself, you know? Does that make sense?

Brandon Sanderson

Preservation, as a Shard, is about preserving life, people, and the like. Not about self. No more than Ruin is about destroying self, or Cultivation is about growing herself.

/r/fantasy AMA 2011 (Aug. 31, 2011)

 

Quote

Chaos

Give us the name of a Shard's intent we have not seen before.

Brandon Sanderson

There is one who just wants to hide and survive.

General Signed Books 2011 (Nov. 8, 2011)

So for your theory to work, Brandon would have to remember that he'd already introduced Cultivation well enough that he brought her up with no external prompting, then somehow forgot this within two months. I suspect the likelihood of that happening is about the same as someone asking Brandon at the next signing what Hoid's goals are, why the Shattering happened and what his own views are on the God Beyond and getting comprehensive answers to all three questions.

[Bigmikey357]

To add to this, I don't think that we see much of Cultivation because our viewpoints are focused primarily on Alethkar, more focused on Honor and the Heralds. I believe that there is mention that Cultivation is worshipped more in the west, in places where the highstorms aren't as strong.

[Fezzik]

5 hours ago, Weltall said:

and getting comprehensive answers to all three questions.

Comprehensive answers to two of them, sure. But three is right out. I mean five.

[Calyx]

I interpret Dalinar's interaction with Cultivation as evidence that she is actively involved. Maybe directly confronting Odium is a terrible idea (and certainly it hasn't gone well for any of the other shards), but she is clearly still paying attention and altering things.

If her goal were to simply hide and wait for Odium to give up looking for her, should she just withdraw as much of her investiture as she can, or maybe even leave Roshar? Instead she is meddling with the very human Odium intends to be his champion. 

[Sprendiferous]

3 hours ago, Calyx said:

I interpret Dalinar's interaction with Cultivation as evidence that she is actively involved. Maybe directly confronting Odium is a terrible idea (and certainly it hasn't gone well for any of the other shards), but she is clearly still paying attention and altering things.

If her goal were to simply hide and wait for Odium to give up looking for her, should she just withdraw as much of her investiture as she can, or maybe even leave Roshar? Instead she is meddling with the very human Odium intends to be his champion. 

This is what I came here to say. Not only did she take great care in the way in which she 'cultivated' Dalinar but I don't believe we've seen the full extent of what she intends for Taravangian. 

[dantlee]

In addition to what people mentioned above about her literally taking away Odium's champion at a decisive moment, the fact that the Stormfather explicitly says in OB that Odium fears exposing himself to a strike from Cultivation makes it pretty clear that she's taking a very active role in the conflict, not just hiding and surviving. 

[SkyRunner]

Taravangian, is unfortunately the Hero Of Ages

[Scion of the Mists]

I agree that the WoB is probably not referring to Cultivation.  It seems like a very straightforward request and answer.  

HOWEVER, this is the exact kind of trickiness that Brandon sometimes pulls on us.  

[Weltall]

4 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

I agree that the WoB is probably not referring to Cultivation.  It seems like a very straightforward request and answer.  

HOWEVER, this is the exact kind of trickiness that Brandon sometimes pulls on us.  

I really don't think there's room for that kind of trickiness though. The question was to give us the name of an intent we hadn't seen before. We know that the name of the Shard is their intent (Odium's protestations about being 'Passion' aside) so giving us information on a Shard that we'd already gotten a name for would not be answering the question at all. Brandon clearly feels he gave us something significant with the 'hide and survive' comment, which doesn't make sense if he's talking about a Shard that we already know about and which is clearly not hiding, since she's directly opposing Odium.

Also, we know a Shard can leave a world in a relative hurry if it doesn't mind parting with all the Investiture they've sunk into a world. The mystery Shard is described as 'know(ing) what's going on and is smart enough to get out of there', which isn't Cultivation who is still on Roshar, very much not getting out of there despite it being possible for her to do so if she really wanted to be elsewhere.

[Scion of the Mists]

2 hours ago, Weltall said:

I really don't think there's room for that kind of trickiness though. The question was to give us the name of an intent we hadn't seen before. We know that the name of the Shard is their intent (Odium's protestations about being 'Passion' aside) so giving us information on a Shard that we'd already gotten a name for would not be answering the question at all. Brandon clearly feels he gave us something significant with the 'hide and survive' comment, which doesn't make sense if he's talking about a Shard that we already know about and which is clearly not hiding, since she's directly opposing Odium.

Also, we know a Shard can leave a world in a relative hurry if it doesn't mind parting with all the Investiture they've sunk into a world. The mystery Shard is described as 'know(ing) what's going on and is smart enough to get out of there', which isn't Cultivation who is still on Roshar, very much not getting out of there despite it being possible for her to do so if she really wanted to be elsewhere.

I mean, the question could also be parsed as "the intent of a (Shard that we have not seen before)."  Where Cultivation fits the criteria because we didn't see her onscreen until Oathbringer.  And it's not like he answered the question anyway, because (as he reveals in the WoB you linked), the "hide and survive" is only tangentially related to the Shard's intent.  

So one interpretation of that WoB is:

• Questioner: Tell us about a Shard we haven't seen before
• Brandon: One of them is in hiding

 

Again, I don't subscribe to that interpretation.  I feel like this WoB, combined with the others you linked point pretty clearly to it being a Shard that we haven't encountered even now.  I was just pointing out that Brandon can be really tricksy sometimes (see: "the man who calls himself Taln" and "is Hoid a Mistborn"), and that this kind of thinking is useful to creating new theories.  I know that I, personally, never even thought about the "survival Shard" being one that we already encountered.  I think that this kind of critical thinking is helpful.  

[Calderis]

I absolutely agree with @Weltall that there's no way that Brandon simply forgot that he'd mentioned Cultivation, but we also have proof via WoB that Cultivation is not simply hiding but actively opposing Odium 

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Wolfbeckett

Are things that are written by scholars on Roshar suspect? In Mistborn, Ruin could change anything that was written down, so can Odium do the same? Are written words on Roshar: untrustworthy, trustworthy because that ability was somehow limited to Ruin, or trustworthy because Odium COULD do it but just won't because it's not his style/he doesn't consider it?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium didn't have a hand in creating Roshar, and his essence doesn't permeate it in the same way as Ruin permeated Scadrial. This gave Ruin a great deal more power over things like this--except when he ran into metals, of course.

Another difference is that Odium has a fully-living, fully-aware, and very powerful Shard opposing him. (Contrasted to one that was half-dead and going mad.)

So yes, you can trust much of what was written. Odium can be subtle when he needs to be, but his primary avenue of attack has been along a different line than the one Ruin used.

/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 3, 2015)

 

[Ripheus23]

On 7/16/2019 at 2:06 PM, Weltall said:

asking Brandon at the next signing what Hoid's goals are, why the Shattering happened and what his own views are on the God Beyond and getting comprehensive answers to all three questions

Storm Sanderson's mind, it can't stop us all 

EDIT:

Quote

Give us the name of a Shard's intent ... "to hide and survive"

I know Sanderson later said that surviving was only tangential to the Shard's Intent but here he seems to indicate that the Intent really is something like Hidvival or Surhiding or whatever, which isn't "tangentially" about surviving but constitutively about that... so...

The alternative there is that "to hide" is the Intent (a Shard of Isolation?), so surviving is just a means to hiding. So maybe now the Shard realizes that if it died, it could "hide" in the Beyond, as it were, which would be the closest to ultimate Isolation it could reach.

BUT that alternative violates the precept, "The Vessels don't automatically apply their Intents to themselves." Of course, maybe this is a Shard that has succumbed to its Intent, or whatever, so it is now self-applying the Intent. However, the next idea would otherwise be: the Intent has to do with hiding and surviving inferentially (the meaning of "tangentially" here, as in a geometric/logical tangent, not an "irrelevant sidestep"?), which is where some of the Wisdom equation comes from? I haven't read over the arguments for Wisdom here so IDK but at least assuming a kind of "normal" prudential wisdom might lead to hiding in order to survive.

BUT!!! that won't work either, probably? If this Shard is Wisdom, and if Shards don't automatically self-apply their Intents, then we don't have to assume that Wisdom would wisely try to hide and survive?

Edited July 19, 2019 by Ripheus23