Era 2 war

[Pathfinder]

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

Didn't think of that nice catch.  On a pact battlefield Marasi might be extremely useful as she can trap groups of soldiers.  I was thinking that the best use for early tanks would be lucchers but if you can put slow moving speed bubbles on them you can trap a large group of soldiers while you surround them.

Can you explain what you mean by lurchers being early tanks?

[Karger]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Can you explain what you mean by lurchers being early tanks?

A tank has week points that soldiers even during the first world war were trained to identify.  A lurcher could draw bullets toward the armored sides of the tank and away from the scopes, hinges and treads.

[Pathfinder]

10 minutes ago, Karger said:

A tank has week points that soldiers even during the first world war were trained to identify.  A lurcher could draw bullets toward the armored sides of the tank and away from the scopes, hinges and treads.

Wouldn't the lurcher have to be practically a savant level to tell the difference between the metal all around him (the tank) vs the metal outside the tank? 

[+Oltux72]

On 7/16/2019 at 7:45 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

That's an excellent point and would likely be the opening gambit in the conflict. That advantage flips however as soon as Elendel takes an outer settlement or 2 and secures it's supply lines. Plus it would be hard for the outer settlements to project a united front with only the telegraph for rapid communication. Subdue the settlements in piecemeal, either by direct martial dominance or offering favored status through diplomatic relations and the war is over within a year.

The Basin's railway lines are few and badly interconnected. There is only one major river. The commercial advantage is a military disadvantage. The next thing you'd do is spoiling attacks on the rivers and railways.
Telegraphy, however, was essentially enough to coordinate WW1.

 

5 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Cool heads do not always prevail in war.

Cool need not mean cautious. In a Civil War time would work against Elendel. They must strike soon.

[Karger]

54 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Wouldn't the lurcher have to be practically a savant level to tell the difference between the metal all around him (the tank) vs the metal outside the tank? 

I don't know.  I personally think that a few week training course would be enough.  Side note.  If I was in Elendel I would take 3 lurchers/coinshots and blindfold them for several days but give them all the metal they want in a favorable environment just to see what would happen.

45 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Cool need not mean cautious. In a Civil War time would work against Elendel. They must strike soon.

How does time work against Elendel?  Don't they have more people?  Assuming an equal attrition rate settlements will run out of soldiers before Elendel does.

[Pathfinder]

21 minutes ago, Karger said:

I don't know.  I personally think that a few week training course would be enough.  Side note.  If I was in Elendel I would take 3 lurchers/coinshots and blindfold them for several days but give them all the metal they want in a favorable environment just to see what would happen.

You might be misunderstanding my point. When Wax pushes as a steel bubble, or in general around him, he keeps his own metal near his body so it is excluded in the push. Same thing for a Lurcher. The metal plate is on the chest, so is excluded from the pull. Now if you place a regular lurcher in basically a metal box, how is the lurcher could to:

1. see the metal with their metal sight when they are surrounded by metal

2. exclude the metal box from their pull assuming they could reach beyond it?

 

A savant, due to flaring their metal/using their metal constantly, can separate parts of a metal object. So they would be able to pull on different parts of the tank, though I am still unsure whether or not they could pull outside that metal box. But blindfolding would not result in a savant. Unless you are talking about a tineye that is, and he or she is still flaring their metal lol. 

Edited July 17, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

45 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

A savant, due to flaring their metal/using their metal constantly, can separate parts of a metal object. So they would be able to pull on different parts of the tank, though I am still unsure whether or not they could pull outside that metal box. But blindfolding would not result in a savant. Unless you are talking about a tineye that is, and he or she is still flaring their metal lol. 

I was referring to making them rely more on their power.  Seeing via stealsight only for a few weeks would be interesting.

[Bigmikey357]

It isn't necessary for Wax's weapons to be near him to exclude it from his steel push bubble, just for him to make a mental exemption for them. That's what he did for something Steris carried during the party in New Seran. I cannot see it beyond the realm of possibility for a Lurcher similarly close to savanthood to do the same thing, learning how to effect via mental command what metal they'll pull on.

Elendel's supply lines can be easily disrupted with a coordinated effort by the outer settlements to sabotage the rail lines, but they will not be able to effectively destroy all the canals. I still maintain however that all it takes is one dissenter to break the siege of the Basin. The longer the conflict goes on the more likely one of the outer settlements breaks with the coalition through force or diplomatic persuasion. No one of the outer settlements can conduct a siege of the Basin on their own. Conversely, the Basin only needs one outlet to make any siege upon it ineffective. Time is on Elendel's side. 

[Karger]

18 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Elendel's supply lines can be easily disrupted with a coordinated effort by the outer settlements to sabotage the rail lines, but they will not be able to effectively destroy all the canals. I still maintain however that all it takes is one dissenter to break the siege of the Basin. The longer the conflict goes on the more likely one of the outer settlements breaks with the coalition through force or diplomatic persuasion. No one of the outer settlements can conduct a siege of the Basin on their own. Conversely, the Basin only needs one outlet to make any siege upon it ineffective. Time is on Elendel's side. 

In addition to that Elendel has more people and more guns as well as a shorter supply line so they can punch through the siege whenever they want.

[+Oltux72]

16 hours ago, Karger said:

How does time work against Elendel?  Don't they have more people?  Assuming an equal attrition rate settlements will run out of soldiers before Elendel does.

Raw materials and food. Having most of the Basin's industrial capacity is extremely useful, if and only if you get the raw materials to run those factories. This means Elendel needs to

• take control of some areas with fields and mines outside Elendel
• keep the canals and railways open

Hence Elendel needs to actually attack. If they sit there and just defend themselves they will starve to death (or submission). It gets worse Elendel's attack options are rather limited. The Basin is at best at a nineteentwenties levels of motorization. They cannot supply a major army over roads. Elendel needs to attack along the railway lines or canals. Or at sea. This is actually key. If the outer Basin does not control the ocean, they have already lost. Hence the Pewternauts.
Thus the Outer Basin will always enjoy the advantage of defense and they will move towards their supplies and Elendel will move away from, needing to always fix the railways or unclog and demine the canals. In addition Elendel needs to keep considerable troops behind, as they absolutely cannot risk their front line troops being cut off. The Outer Basin has the luxury of choosing where to counterattack.
It gets worse. Elendel will need to guard the fields they have conquered. Here allomancy is very much on teh side of the Outer Basin. Guarding all fields against raids by coinshots with incendiaries is infeasible. And the Outer Basin will surely collapse or flood any mines Elendel conquers.

Yes, Elendel will win any battle they concentrate on. But they need to win most and quickly, before they run out of food. You do not besiege a major city like a medieval castle. The ring is much wider. Elendel may break through but without a way to supply the forces counterattacking you end up with a WW1 situation. The defender has intact supply lines, the attacker has not.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Raw materials and food. Having most of the Basin's industrial capacity is extremely useful, if and only if you get the raw materials to run those factories. This means Elendel needs to

• take control of some areas with fields and mines outside Elendel
• keep the canals and railways open

Elendel is also the transit hub.  Doesn't that mean that they have stockpiles?

[Pathfinder]

18 hours ago, Karger said:

I was referring to making them rely more on their power.  Seeing via stealsight only for a few weeks would be interesting.

Lol that would still produce the effect of burning the metal continually which would ultimately result in savantism, so sure that could work. 

15 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

It isn't necessary for Wax's weapons to be near him to exclude it from his steel push bubble, just for him to make a mental exemption for them. That's what he did for something Steris carried during the party in New Seran. I cannot see it beyond the realm of possibility for a Lurcher similarly close to savanthood to do the same thing, learning how to effect via mental command what metal they'll pull on.

At that point Wax is a savant and can choose to exclude metals. That is why I raised the concern regarding lurchers surrounded by a tank. Unless they were a savant, they would see the tank as one giant piece of metal completely surrounding them. I am unsure how they could see bits of metal flying around outside of a metal box with metal sight, and pull on them without being a savant first. 

[Karger]

44 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

At that point Wax is a savant and can choose to exclude metals. That is why I raised the concern regarding lurchers surrounded by a tank. Unless they were a savant, they would see the tank as one giant piece of metal completely surrounding them. I am unsure how they could see bits of metal flying around outside of a metal box with metal sight, and pull on them without being a savant first. 

I thought that stealbubble was his resonance.

[Pathfinder]

32 minutes ago, Karger said:

I thought that stealbubble was his resonance.

I am referring to his ability to selectively omit certain metals or parts of metallic objects from a general push. That is the result of savantism. 

[Karger]

11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I am referring to his ability to selectively omit certain metals or parts of metallic objects from a general push. That is the result of savantism. 

Good to know.  I think there is also some learned skill in their too.

[Pathfinder]

8 minutes ago, Karger said:

Good to know.  I think there is also some learned skill in their too.

No problem. Two examples are when Kelsier pushed a bar of metal at an enemy, and while it was flying, he pulled on one part of the bar to send it spinning. Normally an allomancer can only push on the objects center. Wax when he fought that terrisman in his youth, when they were both pushing on something, Wax noticed multiple parts to the thing they were pushing on, and was able to selectively push on part of it, resulting in it flying at the enemy and killing him while the enemy could only push on the center of the entire thing. I will try and pull up the scene to explain it better. 

[Karger]

14 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I will try and pull up the scene to explain it better. 

I remember.

[+Oltux72]

4 hours ago, Karger said:

Elendel is also the transit hub.  Doesn't that mean that they have stockpiles?

Going by the spikes in food prices after Paalm blew up the dam they do not. Stockpiles cost money.

[Karger]

13 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Going by the spikes in food prices after Paalm blew up the dam they do not. Stockpiles cost money.

Marasi notes that the spikes were likely caused by panic not an actual shortage.

[+Oltux72]

13 minutes ago, Karger said:

Marasi notes that the spikes were likely caused by panic not an actual shortage.

Markets anticipate the future. So the spikes happen prematurely, but they happen for a reason.

[Pathfinder]

Found a scene that supports what i was saying about the tanks. This is regarding wood and plaster but even that caused some problems 

 

"Translucent blue lines spread around him, pointing in a thousand different directions, highlighting bits of metal. The nails in a desk behind him, where a frightened man in a suit cowered. The metal wires in the walls, leading to electric lamps. Most importantly, a few lines pointed through the wall into the next room. These were faint; obstructions weakened his Allomantic sense."

[Karger]

On 7/18/2019 at 6:30 PM, Pathfinder said:

"Translucent blue lines spread around him, pointing in a thousand different directions, highlighting bits of metal. The nails in a desk behind him, where a frightened man in a suit cowered. The metal wires in the walls, leading to electric lamps. Most importantly, a few lines pointed through the wall into the next room. These were faint; obstructions weakened his Allomantic sense."

That is because wood used to be alive and as such has some residual investiture which interferes with stealsight.

[Bigmikey357]

The outer settlements still have trouble with unity, something that Elendel would be stupid not to exploit. Remember that all roads, railways and canals flow towards Elendel. That's one of the reasons the outer settlements are willing to fight with Elendel. The center has to control and defend a large region. The outer settlements will have trouble moving troops and equipment to places where they are needed. They cannot consentrate their assets meaning that Elendel can crush any individual settlements in short order. How strong is the alliance of the outer settlements and will it stand when the hammer is descending on New Seran for instance?

[Pathfinder]

On 7/21/2019 at 8:46 AM, Karger said:

That is because wood used to be alive and as such has some residual investiture which interferes with stealsight.

Got a WoB or a quote on that?

[Karger]

41 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Got a WoB or a quote on that?

Metals that have been immersed in blood are hard to see with stealsight.  I assumed the same for wood.