Era 2 war

[Karger]

4 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

They have no instant communication. They’re in a weird place with what tech is developed 

They do.  In Bands of Morning the bank IDs them by asking the Reddi back in Elendel via telagraph.  Also I was not going to mention this but triple posting is a bit much.

5 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Could you clarify? From what I understand of seeking, when an allomancer burns their metal, a "ripple" beats out, centered on the allomancer. A seeker senses this ripple. A copper cloud hides this ripple. So during the seeker would not sense any ripples coming from the enemy allomancers. By the time the copper cloud obscures the enemy seeker, the coinshots would be within range to fire. In this example it is a small force for a guerilla attack. 

I meant if the army the army A is attack army B with your strike team.  Army B will likely have several different alomancers burning including but not limited to moral boosting rioters and soothers, several seekers in different locations, tineye snipers also in several different locations, and maybe even an oracle(you have not yet mentioned how your strike team is going to deal with those).  Assuming a coppercloud is relatively circular some of these are going to be silenced to the seeker.  Your confusion probably comes because I was asumming a much bigger cloud then you were.  Making that small a cloud risks exposure if someone makes a mistake(a coinshot goes to low or too high for example).  If you put the coppercloud too close to the back then any coinshot that gets too close to the ground will be detectable.  If you put the coppercloud too close to the front then the silence will tell the seekers where to look.  Also just relised that a well trained lurcher can spot moving metal at range. 

Does every piece of metal pushed or pulled on need to in the coppercloud or only the alomancer themselves?

Edited July 16, 2019 by Karger

[Elsecaller_17.5]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Also I was not going to mention this but triple posting is a bit much.

That’s fair, I’ll try to remember in the future 

[Bigmikey357]

The problem with gaming out a war scenario on Era 2 Scadrial in the way the OP proposes is that the sides of the conflict aren't remotely even unless you include the Southerners. In a war strictly between the Basin and the outer settlements, the outer settlements are at a strict disadvantage. They don't have the population or the resources to win against the Basin. They would have to carry out a devastating surprise attack at the onset of the conflict to have any sort of chance to even the odds. That may have a chance of success considering that Elendel is centralized, but one of the leading figures in the city has been apprised of the threat and is surely taking that threat seriously. Makes it more difficult to cripple the infastructure of a prepared enemy if one does not have an edge in either numbers or technical superiority. 

The more scary, and frankly the more even matchup would be a united basin versus the Southerners, a war that pits magic vs. technology. The warfare comp is WWII, or just before. No instant come, no radio means not quite WWII but magic already makes trench warfare obsolete. In this scenario technical advancement happens rapidly as both sides of the conflict are under pressure to seek advantage. Unfortunately for the Basin, the war likely gets fought on their home turf. The South will have air superiority for the entire conflict. Unfortunately for the Southerners, there is nothing truly esoteric or complicated about their tech, it can be suborned and/or sabotaged rather easily for metalborn. And if the Basin gets ahold of primer cubes to project their allomancy outward the South could have a very bad day at the office. 

[+Oltux72]

How would you use aircraft and tanks on a battlefield filled with Coinshots and Lurchers? And with speed bubbles (both ways) you have even more defences against aimed gun fire than a simple trench would offer. Yet they are immobile. This points to an even harder stalemate than WW1.

6 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The problem with gaming out a war scenario on Era 2 Scadrial in the way the OP proposes is that the sides of the conflict aren't remotely even unless you include the Southerners. In a war strictly between the Basin and the outer settlements, the outer settlements are at a strict disadvantage. They don't have the population or the resources to win against the Basin.

Hence they would not try to meet them in open battle. We have been given one crucial piece of information: Elendel cannot feed itself. Even a single dam breaking causes supply issues.
That offers a clear strategy to the outer Basin: Blockade and starvation. If the Elendel armies advance, as they must, you use the advantage defence has and slowly give ground using scorched earth tactics. Elendel would be in the situation of the WW1 Central Powers.

[Pathfinder]

So there seems to be a few misunderstandings regarding my intentions so hopefully I can clarify below

 

16 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

IIRC they can. While Vin is training with Moash she mentions that she can feel Kelsier beneath them. Granted Vin is a special case but Moash didn’t comment on it.

What I meant was while the coinshots are in the copper cloud, hiding their allomancy, the seekers would be unable to pin point where the coinshots are. Vin also was especially strong due to her spike, so that is why she could pierce copper clouds. Finally I believe you are referring to Marsh, not Moash. 

16 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

At a different (I believe earlier) time he comments on them being relatively rare. I don’t remember where exactly in the books both comments are, but I remember noticing it on my first read and pinpointing it on the next.  I think the one about them being common is was in reference to criminals though. i.e. more coinshots turn to crime than tineyes

Edit: upon further consideration I believe it was in BoM while talking about his status as one of only three crashers ever born.

In Alloy of Law, Wax mentions coinshots are among the most common type of allomancer. Yes, it is particularly among criminals, but that does not change overall they are the most common. Crashers are twinborn, and are exceedingly rare. Quote below:

 

Alloy of Law page 210

He was used to dealing with Coinshots - they were one of the most common types of Allomancer, particularly among criminals. Feruchemists were far more rare. 

 

15 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

They have no instant communication. They’re in a weird place with what tech is developed 

Questioner(paraphrased)

People are going crazy wondering if there are telegraphs and telephones in Alloy of Law. Are there? And if not, why?

Brandon Sanderson(paraphrased)

There are not yet. And the reason why is because they haven’t needed them yet. Necessity is the, what the fuel of invention?

Audience Member(paraphrased)

The mother of invention

Brandon Sanderson(paraphrased)

Yes, the mother of invention, and they have messengers who run, Coinshots who are very fast. They also basically don’t need to go outside the City, and haven’t for a long time. They’re close, but they haven’t invented them yet for the same reason that they have very poor navigation techniques. Why do you need to ship anything or sail anywhere when you have some idyllic paradise to live in? And you have allomancers, who in some ways are preventing from achieving that next level, because a Coinshot can get it there really fast, and so you’re only waiting a few minutes for them to come back with your message, so it can actually stifle a little bit of technology by having a not-quite-as-good magical solution.

West Jordan signing (Dec. 15, 2011)

 

15 hours ago, Karger said:

They do.  In Bands of Morning the bank IDs them by asking the Reddi back in Elendel via telagraph.  Also I was not going to mention this but triple posting is a bit much.

I meant if the army the army A is attack army B with your strike team.  Army B will likely have several different alomancers burning including but not limited to moral boosting rioters and soothers, several seekers in different locations, tineye snipers also in several different locations, and maybe even an oracle(you have not yet mentioned how your strike team is going to deal with those).  Assuming a coppercloud is relatively circular some of these are going to be silenced to the seeker.  Your confusion probably comes because I was asumming a much bigger cloud then you were.  Making that small a cloud risks exposure if someone makes a mistake(a coinshot goes to low or too high for example).  If you put the coppercloud too close to the back then any coinshot that gets too close to the ground will be detectable.  If you put the coppercloud too close to the front then the silence will tell the seekers where to look.  Also just relised that a well trained lurcher can spot moving metal at range. 

Does every piece of metal pushed or pulled on need to in the coppercloud or only the alomancer themselves?

The telegraph is a very limited means of communication, especially on battlefields. They require a station to be wired connecting to where they are receiving. Then a messenger would have to run to the front lines. Radio on the other hand was the revolutionary technology Wax discovered that his Uncle was using. That would be incredibly important in war. The german Blitzkrieg relied entirely upon it. Literally meaning "lightning war", the german tanks would have radios in contact with planes. The tank divisions would advance quickly. Anytime they ran into anti-tank weaponry or resistance, the individual tanks would radio in to the air support to bomb the emplacements. They hit hard, and fast and overwhelmed their enemies. All because of radio coordination. 

Now to break down the rest of your response. My strike team isn't meant to be a concerted attack. It is a guerrilla haring attack meant to take out an objective and flee. Brandon has said himself the mistings/mistborn were built more as assassins and frequently employed as such. We see as much during the Siege of Luthadel. An oracle only deals with their personal future, so unless a coinshot is in range and shoots them while they are burning, the oracle will not help in this scenario. A battlefield is miles of distance and coinshots can cover a lot of ground very quickly, so personally I do not feel the copper cloud would be problematic as by the time the seeker's own pulse is muted by the copper cloud, the coinshots are already in range to fire. I will give you that the lurcher would notice metal on the coinshots though that could be countered with the coinshots having swallowed all the metal they intend to use, and keep a backup pill in their mouths to swallow when needed. As per Brandon hiding metal in the mouth is a common allomancer trick to evade detection. Wax's Uncle Edwarn does exactly that, and Wax only notices it because he is under the effects of the Bands at the time. The seeker only senses the allomancer themselves. Not the metal shot. 

Btw, correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the point of this thread was to discuss ways we could see allomancers being employed during a war. I didn't know this was going to be a counter thing back and forth. I came up with a tactic I could see being employed. Nothing in war is perfect nor full proof. The idea is to come up with something your enemy won't expect to gain an advantage. After that the tactic will lose effectiveness and another tactic will need to be employed. Is this thread a war game where we are actively trying to work against each other's armies, or is it coming up with ideas on how you think they could be used? Because personally I thought it was the latter instead of the former.

8 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The problem with gaming out a war scenario on Era 2 Scadrial in the way the OP proposes is that the sides of the conflict aren't remotely even unless you include the Southerners. In a war strictly between the Basin and the outer settlements, the outer settlements are at a strict disadvantage. They don't have the population or the resources to win against the Basin. They would have to carry out a devastating surprise attack at the onset of the conflict to have any sort of chance to even the odds. That may have a chance of success considering that Elendel is centralized, but one of the leading figures in the city has been apprised of the threat and is surely taking that threat seriously. Makes it more difficult to cripple the infastructure of a prepared enemy if one does not have an edge in either numbers or technical superiority. 

The more scary, and frankly the more even matchup would be a united basin versus the Southerners, a war that pits magic vs. technology. The warfare comp is WWII, or just before. No instant come, no radio means not quite WWII but magic already makes trench warfare obsolete. In this scenario technical advancement happens rapidly as both sides of the conflict are under pressure to seek advantage. Unfortunately for the Basin, the war likely gets fought on their home turf. The South will have air superiority for the entire conflict. Unfortunately for the Southerners, there is nothing truly esoteric or complicated about their tech, it can be suborned and/or sabotaged rather easily for metalborn. And if the Basin gets ahold of primer cubes to project their allomancy outward the South could have a very bad day at the office. 

All excellent points

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

How would you use aircraft and tanks on a battlefield filled with Coinshots and Lurchers? And with speed bubbles (both ways) you have even more defences against aimed gun fire than a simple trench would offer. Yet they are immobile. This points to an even harder stalemate than WW1.

Hence they would not try to meet them in open battle. We have been given one crucial piece of information: Elendel cannot feed itself. Even a single dam breaking causes supply issues.
That offers a clear strategy to the outer Basin: Blockade and starvation. If the Elendel armies advance, as they must, you use the advantage defence has and slowly give ground using scorched earth tactics. Elendel would be in the situation of the WW1 Central Powers.

Well it seems that the airships can fly out of range of coinshots and lurchers. Wax and crew flew over Uncle Edwarn's expedition, and Edwarn had a whole host of allomancers in tow yet they were unable to attack it. Wax was only able to pull down the larger airship because as I mentioned earlier, he had the bands at that point. 

[Karger]

23 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

After that the tactic will lose effectiveness and another tactic will need to be employed. Is this thread a war game where we are actively trying to work against each other's armies, or is it coming up with ideas on how you think they could be used? Because personally I thought it was the latter instead of the former.

It is the latter.  I am trying to foresee how the conflict will go and how it will be different from our wars.  This means putting any potential plan under the same scrutiny as a general might before implementing it.  I think your plan would work but I do not think the one tactic will change the way warfare is fought.

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The problem with gaming out a war scenario on Era 2 Scadrial in the way the OP proposes is that the sides of the conflict aren't remotely even unless you include the Southerners. In a war strictly between the Basin and the outer settlements, the outer settlements are at a strict disadvantage. They don't have the population or the resources to win against the Basin. They would have to carry out a devastating surprise attack at the onset of the conflict to have any sort of chance to even the odds. That may have a chance of success considering that Elendel is centralized, but one of the leading figures in the city has been apprised of the threat and is surely taking that threat seriously. Makes it more difficult to cripple the infastructure of a prepared enemy if one does not have an edge in either numbers or technical superiority. 

I will refer you to the americain civil war.  The north had more technology, more and better railroads, more industry and more people then the south.  The south still went to war despite Abe Lincoln pointing out quite early in the conflict that the North's numerical superiority clearly indicated that even if the North technically lost every battle they could still win the war eventually.  Remember in Bands of Morning Kelesina points out that the outer reaches are ready to go to war despite similar disadvantages out of anger. 

32 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The telegraph is a very limited means of communication, especially on battlefields. They require a station to be wired connecting to where they are receiving. Then a messenger would have to run to the front lines. Radio on the other hand was the revolutionary technology Wax discovered that his Uncle was using. That would be incredibly important in war. The german Blitzkrieg relied entirely upon it. Literally meaning "lightning war", the german tanks would have radios in contact with planes. The tank divisions would advance quickly. Anytime they ran into anti-tank weaponry or resistance, the individual tanks would radio in to the air support to bomb the emplacements. They hit hard, and fast and overwhelmed their enemies. All because of radio coordination. 

Radio communication is extremely important during warfare.  However even telegraphs do make a difference.  Both Napoleon and Lincoln used them during their careers often to great effect. 

 

[Pathfinder]

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

It is the latter.  I am trying to foresee how the conflict will go and how it will be different from our wars.  This means putting any potential plan under the same scrutiny as a general might before implementing it.  I think your plan would work but I do not think the one tactic will change the way warfare is fought.

I never said it would change warfare on the whole. I was offering a tactic that could employ the tools at ones disposal. The changing of warfare is if medallions and allomantic/feruchemical vehicles are included. A lot of ideas regarding the allomancers and feruchemists would be guerrilla strikes to me. None of the types of allomancy nor feruchemy are in significant numbers enough to matter in a large scale assault. Pewter thugs are great as a "super soldier", but sending them across the front line to me is counter productive because they can be easily lost from mortar or gunfire from the opposing side. They would work better to me as a small scout group. Able to cover more ground, faster, for longer stretches of time than normal people. Coinshots might be good in the general infantry, but in order to fully use their abilities, you would either have to use them in small surgical strikes or need numbers that I just do not think they have available. I am talking hundreds if not thousands. Tineye and Seeker guards are a given. Oracles might work as spies. Infiltrate an area and you know where to go when to avoid being discovered. However run into the detection issue. The oracle would need to bring a copper cloud with him or her. But this is also assuming you have enough tineyes and bronze seekers to cover the entire perimeter, which I think is doubtful. 

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

Radio communication is extremely important during warfare.  However even telegraphs do make a difference.  Both Napoleon and Lincoln used them during their careers often to great effect. 

Yes they make a difference, but to me that is not instant communication. There is optical telegraph (waving flags, etc to send signals), and the wired electric telegraph, but both of those are relatively limited. I believe he or she was trying to pinpoint what the level of technological analogue there would be. 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

I never said it would change warfare on the whole. I was offering a tactic that could employ the tools at ones disposal. The changing of warfare is if medallions and allomantic/feruchemical vehicles are included. A lot of ideas regarding the allomancers and feruchemists would be guerrilla strikes to me. None of the types of allomancy nor feruchemy are in significant numbers enough to matter in a large scale assault

So you think that the war I am highlighting will look something like our first world war?  You don't think anything either power grants will make that much of a difference?

[Pathfinder]

14 minutes ago, Karger said:

So you think that the war I am highlighting will look something like our first world war?  You don't think anything either power grants will make that much of a difference?

I already said how I felt the powers would affect things. The allomancers and feruchemists could be used in coordinated strikes in small forces. But I do not believe you are going to get massive battles with allomancers like D-day and the like. The allomancers and feruchemists just aren't at those numbers. Now include southerner tech and that changes things massively. 

[Bigmikey357]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

I will refer you to the americain civil war.  The north had more technology, more and better railroads, more industry and more people then the south.  The south still went to war despite Abe Lincoln pointing out quite early in the conflict that the North's numerical superiority clearly indicated that even if the North technically lost every battle they could still win the war eventually.  Remember in Bands of Morning Kelesina points out that the outer reaches are ready to go to war despite similar disadvantages out of anger. 

The difference between the potential conflict and the American Civil War is that in this conflict the side with the weaker infastructure are the aggressors instead of the defenders. It can be argued that as soon as the South turned to aggressive tactics in northern territory they began to lose the war. 

 

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

11 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

 

Hence they would not try to meet them in open battle. We have been given one crucial piece of information: Elendel cannot feed itself. Even a single dam breaking causes supply issues.
That offers a clear strategy to the outer Basin: Blockade and starvation. If the Elendel armies advance, as they must, you use the advantage defence has and slowly give ground using scorched earth tactics

That's an excellent point and would likely be the opening gambit in the conflict. That advantage flips however as soon as Elendel takes an outer settlement or 2 and secures it's supply lines. Plus it would be hard for the outer settlements to project a united front with only the telegraph for rapid communication. Subdue the settlements in piecemeal, either by direct martial dominance or offering favored status through diplomatic relations and the war is over within a year.

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The difference between the potential conflict and the American Civil War is that in this conflict the side with the weaker infastructure are the aggressors instead of the defenders. It can be argued that as soon as the South turned to aggressive tactics in northern territory they began to lose the war. 

I don't think that they are going to go on the offensive.  After a few losses by commanders that are too aggressive rational heads will have the outermost settlements dig in hoping for what could essentially become a siege of Elandel.

50 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I already said how I felt the powers would affect things. The allomancers and feruchemists could be used in coordinated strikes in small forces. But I do not believe you are going to get massive battles with allomancers like D-day and the like. The allomancers and feruchemists just aren't at those numbers. Now include southerner tech and that changes things massively. 

I view that as more of an Era 3 type deal.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

20 hours ago, Karger said:

I don't think that they are going to go on the offensive.  After a few losses by commanders that are too aggressive rational heads will have the outermost settlements dig in hoping for what could essentially become a siege of Elandel.

Cool heads do not always prevail in war. General Lee of the Confederacy was a brilliant military tactician that frequently confounded the Union soldiers. In response, when General Sherman was put in charge, he went deep into enemy territory and practiced the first known concept of "total war" and a "scorched earth" doctrine. His army moved, fought, consumed supplies, and then destroyed infrastructure to prevent repair and recovery. This was meant to cripple the South's ability to maintain the war. Many believe it was crucial in leading to the surrender of the South, but back home in the North it was thought of with horror. That was after Lincoln went through multiple Generals who failed against Lee. Sherman was not a cooler head. If anything he went harder. 

20 hours ago, Karger said:

I view that as more of an Era 3 type deal.

Like I said, it is your thread. If you choose to omit it, then it is omitted. As of your scenario, I see allomancers and feruchemists used primarily in small groups, guerrilla forces, and infiltrators. I don't see whole battalions of pewter thugs charging the front lines with an "airforce" of coinshots providing cover fire if that is what you are getting at. 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Cool heads do not always prevail in war. General Lee of the Confederacy was a brilliant military tactician that frequently confounded the Union soldiers. In response, when General Sherman was put in charge, he went deep into enemy territory and practiced the first known concept of "total war" and a "scorched earth" doctrine. His army moved, fought, consumed supplies, and then destroyed infrastructure to prevent repair and recovery. This was meant to cripple the South's ability to maintain the war. Many believe it was crucial in leading to the surrender of the South, but back home in the North it was thought of with horror. That was after Lincoln went through multiple Generals who failed against Lee. Sherman was not a cooler head. If anything he went harder. 

Sherman never fought Lee.  The general most often given credit for defeating him is Grant who is and was well known for his remarkable sangfroid and ability to avoid panic both personally and on behalf of his troops.

[Pathfinder]

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

Sherman never fought Lee.  The general most often given credit for defeating him is Grant who is and was well known for his remarkable sangfroid and ability to avoid panic both personally and on behalf of his troops.

Lee surrendered to Grant, because Grant was put in charged after Sherman burned a chunk of the south down. 

 

edit: just to clarify to hopefully prevent digression. I refer to this order

1. General Lee hands the North numerous defeats

2. Lincoln appoints Sherman

3. Sherman carries out scorched earth doctrine

4. in response to scorched earth doctrine of Sherman, Lincoln appoints Grant

5. Lee surrenders to Grant

Edited July 17, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

Just now, Pathfinder said:

Lee surrendered to Grant, because Grant was put in charged after Sherman burned a chunk of the south down. 

Lee surrendered to Grant because his army had just suffered major losses by attrition in battles including Wilderness, Spotsylvania Court House and Cold Harbor.

 

[Pathfinder]

Just now, Karger said:

Lee surrendered to Grant because his army had just suffered major losses by attrition in battles including Wilderness, Spotsylvania Court House and Cold Harbor.

 

The north suffered losses. Sherman gets appointed and carries out scorched earth policy. Do you agree with this assessment? This portion and only this portion?

[Karger]

26 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The north suffered losses. Sherman gets appointed and carries out scorched earth policy. Do you agree with this assessment? This portion and only this portion?

Yes although the North was taking casualties throughout the war and continued to take them after his appointment. 

[Pathfinder]

27 minutes ago, Karger said:

Yes although the North was taking casualties throughout the war and continued to take them after his appointment. 

Then my point stands. They took losses, and instead of retreating/going defensive/laying siege, they appointed a General that ended up being very aggressive. 

[Karger]

9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Then my point stands. They took losses, and instead of retreating/going defensive/laying siege, they appointed a General that ended up being very aggressive. 

They actually did both.  Grant maintained a costly stalemate with Lee while Sherman did his famous march.  Also despite its reputation.  Sherman's march was actually carefully planned with contingencies for several eventualities including the armies he left behind to deal with Confederate General Hood's forces.  Also in terms of strategy it is likely better to compare to Elendel as the North and the outside provinces as the south.  Remember every offensive attempt by the south eventually failed.  Their only option was to last long enough for the North to get tired of fighting.

[Pathfinder]

8 minutes ago, Karger said:

They actually did both.  Grant maintained a costly stalemate with Lee while Sherman did his famous march.  Also despite its reputation.  Sherman's march was actually carefully planned with contingencies for several eventualities including the armies he left behind to deal with Confederate General Hood's forces.  Also in terms of strategy it is likely better to compare to Elendel as the North and the outside provinces as the south.  Remember every offensive attempt by the south eventually failed.  Their only option was to last long enough for the North to get tired of fighting.

That is not the only instance in history of a side suffering losses still going on the aggressive. They either make mistakes, or feel the risk is worth the reward. I finished re-reading Alloy of Law and have begun my re-read of Shadows of Self so I have not reached the point of New Seran yet in Bands of Mourning. The Set has allomantic and feruchemic resources, but I cannot recall if the outlying areas outside the Elendel Basin had many Allomancers/Feruchemists or not. That would lean the balance in Elendel's favor.  

[Karger]

57 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

That is not the only instance in history of a side suffering losses still going on the aggressive. They either make mistakes, or feel the risk is worth the reward. I finished re-reading Alloy of Law and have begun my re-read of Shadows of Self so I have not reached the point of New Seran yet in Bands of Mourning. The Set has allomantic and feruchemic resources, but I cannot recall if the outlying areas outside the Elendel Basin had many Allomancers/Feruchemists or not. That would lean the balance in Elendel's favor.  

True but rational humans generally learn and if they are taking unsustainable losses do generally change their approach.  Otherwise they loose fairly quickly.

[Pathfinder]

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

True but rational humans generally learn and if they are taking unsustainable losses do generally change their approach.  Otherwise they loose fairly quickly.

The moment of history the comic and movie 300 is based on disagrees. I believe (though I forget the name) there was also a naval battle around the same time, that went a similar way with Athens. Actually the entire conflict between the Greeks and the Persians from Darius to Xerxes shows sometimes people just don't learn lol. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. 

[Karger]

11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The moment of history the comic and movie 300 is based on disagrees. I believe (though I forget the name) there was also a naval battle around the same time, that went a similar way with Athens. Actually the entire conflict between the Greeks and the Persians from Darius to Xerxes shows sometimes people just don't learn lol. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. 

300 is actually an excellent example of what I am talking about(even if it is based on ancient Greek propaganda).  When outmatched humans dig in, try something new, or loose.

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

300 is actually an excellent example of what I am talking about(even if it is based on ancient Greek propaganda).  When outmatched humans dig in, try something new, or loose.

But they did lose. The entire spartan force did in fact get wiped out. They delayed the Persians which is all well and good, but it doesn't change that digging in still resulted in that groups death. 

 

But for purpose of this thread, let us assume both sides have decent numbers of allomancers and feruchemists. Pewter fercuhemists would not be as effective as they have no greater degree of durability due to their strength and will drop just as easily from gun fire. Lurchers would theoretically work better on defensive than offensive as they need a heavy enough/thick enough sheet of armor to protect them as they pull all the bullets towards them. Though that would cause problems for the defenders returning fire. Coinshots would be more effective as they would be pushing back enemy bullets while increasing penetration of allied shots. Pewter mistings might be good during advancing due to speed and endurance, but if they catch enough bullets, they are still going to drop. The problem with the feruchemists over all is they are a depreciating resource. Using any amounts they need, puts them out of the action for a longer period of time. All those steel feruchemists you send towards the enemy to advance, now have to spend weeks doing nothing to rebuild that. A lot can happen in a day nonetheless a week. Maybe if you have enough to put them on a rotation? Speed bubbles might be good for getting aid to the wounded. When advancing a slow bubble user could theoretically do it around a person wounded, thereby giving the wounded time for a medic or surgeon to get to them. 

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

But they did lose. The entire spartan force did in fact get wiped out. They delayed the Persians which is all well and good, but it doesn't change that digging in still resulted in that groups death. 

Spensa "but I'll win anyway."  An individual group dieing in warfare is not an indication of a loss.  It can be considered a victory depending on the circumstances.  Also this was early on in the war and they did not try this tactic again.  Finally considering the odds against them the tactics used may have given the best results possible as they were outnumbered by what might have been a full 2 orders of magnitude.

6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

When advancing a slow bubble user could theoretically do it around a person wounded, thereby giving the wounded time for a medic or surgeon to get to them. 

Didn't think of that nice catch.  On a pact battlefield Marasi might be extremely useful as she can trap groups of soldiers.  I was thinking that the best use for early tanks would be lucchers but if you can put slow moving speed bubbles on them you can trap a large group of soldiers while you surround them.