Karger

Era 2 war

107 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

What do you all think war will look like in Era 2?  By war I mean a full scale war between two opponents who have comparable resources, manpower, technology, and metalborn(like the war Wax may or may not have started in Bands of Morning).

Wars during a comparable human time technologically like The First World War and the American Civil War were characterized by long sieges, heavy human costs, and indefinite waits but what happens when you throw metalborn into the mix?

Of the feruchemical abilities, only the physical ones(other then weight and strength) and gold have an obvious use.  While the others certainly do have some applications in certain circumstances, generally speaking those are the best ones for combat.  Teris beliefs about pacifism mean that requiting a large number of feruchemists would be difficult.  Still both sides will likely have some, so each side will have to know how to fight them.  The existence of machine guns on both sides makes gold largely useless.  The amount of time storing health vs the amount damage machine guns can do makes them not viable.  Tin enhanced sight means better lookouts and snipers so that decreases sneak attacks but it has no offensive use.  Steel is a different story.  A group of stealrunners can easily cross an open space(like the no mans land between trenches or through the kill zone outside a wall).  They can also do a lot of damage once they get there.  Strategically used they can break an impasse and I see no way to stop them.  Thoughts? 

Alomancy

Unlike feruchemists alomancers are widely available for requirement.  There is still a limited number of them (Kriss claims that they are 1/1000 although I suspect she is exaggerating) but unlike the Teris they are generally less pacifistic.  Also unlike feruchemists nearly all of their abilities are usefull in combat(gold, cadmium, duralumin, chromium and aluminum being the exceptions).  Alomantic steal means a large number of airborne targets smaller then airplanes.  Lurchers mean more effective tanks.  Pewterarms are excellent for some types of combat.  Electrum is a fairly good substitute of atium.  Smokers and seekers are excellent for disguising and finding on what the other side's alomancers are doing.  Tineyes may be able to spot ambushes even in darkness.  Soothers and Rioters mean that armies moral will remain higher then expected at all times potentially prolonging conflicts.  They also have uses dampening enemy moral.  I don't the experience to judge what kind of effects these will have.  I am hoping some one on the forms is a military history buff if northern scadirail is in for a yearslong meat grinder like our turn of the century wars or if something about the metallic arts might spell a faster victory and spare them a similar experience.

Note.  I did not include compounders do to their rarity or the effects of southern technology as there are no local sources of harmonium that we know of but if you think that these should be talked about feel free.

Edited by Karger
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For the full scale of the war I think it’s ok to just discount Feruchemy. Many of the skills are useful, but can be replaced by allomancy in most situations. F-gold and F-pewter would both be phenomenal for that one soldier but really wouldn’t have an effect on the war or battlefield strategy as a whole. Steelrunners would be incredibly useful but also incredibly rare so I don’t see how planning for them would be that useful.

For allomancy it’s important to remember a coinshots use as a scout. I think the governments would put a lot of money into aluminum hats so the soldiers are unaffected by the enemy’s emotional allomancy, but also their own. I think you’d also see a rise in trained hazekillers. 

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Are medallions and vehicles using them included? Because if they are, then there is a whole host of other things to account for. Submarines using gasper feruchemy for air. The whole airforce that the southerners have with ettmetal bombs. Field surgeons with gold medallions to heal the wounded and send them right back out to the front lines. Coinshot rail guns and mortar emplacements. Siege weapons that can be easily and quickly moved via weight feruchemy. 

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46 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Are medallions and vehicles using them included? Because if they are, then there is a whole host of other things to account for. Submarines using gasper feruchemy for air. The whole airforce that the southerners have with ettmetal bombs. Field surgeons with gold medallions to heal the wounded and send them right back out to the front lines. Coinshot rail guns and mortar emplacements. Siege weapons that can be easily and quickly moved via weight feruchemy. 

As I previously stated, I personally do not think that southern technology will be widely available int the north for at least a decade perhaps longer.  You are free to disagree provided you give explanations as to why.  Southern wars are obviously different and we can talk about them as well if you wish.

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Posted (edited)

19 minutes ago, Karger said:

As I previously stated, I personally do not think that southern technology will be widely available int the north for at least a decade perhaps longer.  You are free to disagree provided you give explanations as to why.  Southern wars are obviously different and we can talk about them as well if you wish.

Could you edit the beginning, as the example you gave was :

20 hours ago, Karger said:

What do you all think war will look like in Era 2?  By war I mean a full scale war between two opponents who have comparable resources, manpower, technology, and metalborn(like the war Wax may or may not have started in Bands of Morning).

Now I readily admit this is an assumption on my part, but that implied to me you were referring to the Southerners vs the Notherners that was barely avoided due to Steris's handling (which is why I thought you included the "may or may not have"). If that was not your intention, then of course we are entitled to disagree on the time line of technological exchange, but I feel given the number of existent metalborn in the North versus the lack of such in the South, coupled with the technological advances the medallions offer would result in a rapid exchange. Some enterprising Southerners not wanting to have to wait around for the firefathers and mothers to fill medallions when there is an untapped population to the North to take advantage of I think would be among just a few reasons it would get jump started. Another is the anger the outlying towns and cities had about the rail and canal system taxing all goods because they have to go through Elendel first. They tried to get rails connecting them, and were blocked, but how can you rationalize that now when you could have airships that don't require any defined rail or river? The airships alone will dramatically change the landscape in short order. In my opinion at least. But at the end of the day, this is your thread, so if your parameters exclude the southerners, then I have no problem abiding by that. I only explained because you asked. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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I think the more likely war is Elendil vs New Seran and other outlying territories. There were hints that this was coming (I remember something about battleships being built in one of the port cities). 

One the other hand, it is difficult to imagine the South attacking once the southerners we have seen go back to report - they know the North has a lot more metalborn, not to mention the Bands of Morning.

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48 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Another is the anger the outlying towns and cities had about the rail and canal system taxing all goods because they have to go through Elendel first. They tried to get rails connecting them, and were blocked, but how can you rationalize that now when you could have airships that don't require any defined rail or river? The airships alone will dramatically change the landscape in short order. In my opinion at least. But at the end of the day, this is your thread, so if your parameters exclude the southerners, then I have no problem abiding by that. I only explained because you asked. 

 

31 minutes ago, Calyx said:

I think the more likely war is Elendil vs New Seran and other outlying territories. There were hints that this was coming (I remember something about battleships being built in one of the port cities). 

I was referring to this scenario and I am sorry I did not make it more clear.  I personally do not think that any of the captured sotherners have the political clout to start a war on the other side of the world or that they would want to after being given reasonable aid by a foreign government.  They also seem to be suffering form their own conflict with the deniers of masks.  I also think that it takes time for technology to migrate and that if this conflict happens within the next decade their will not be any airships willing to get involved(or at least an extraordinarily limited one).  If you can explain why you think the southerners will show up faster then feel free to include them in your projection.  Do not be limited by mine.

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1 hour ago, Karger said:

 

I was referring to this scenario and I am sorry I did not make it more clear.  I personally do not think that any of the captured sotherners have the political clout to start a war on the other side of the world or that they would want to after being given reasonable aid by a foreign government.  They also seem to be suffering form their own conflict with the deniers of masks.  I also think that it takes time for technology to migrate and that if this conflict happens within the next decade their will not be any airships willing to get involved(or at least an extraordinarily limited one).  If you can explain why you think the southerners will show up faster then feel free to include them in your projection.  Do not be limited by mine.

No problem. Personally I considered that Steris helped avoid a war from breaking out, though tensions will still be present. Just when you said may or may not, I did not know if you had a different opinion. I think due to both sides having something the other side wants, would accelerate the exchange of technology, but that just comes down to personal interpretation. Unless there is any historian on this site that is an expert in advancing technologies. So if you do not think it will be as prevalent by then, your interpretation is just as valid. As to my own projection, I mentioned already what I could see coming up. Weight manipulation, heat manipulation, steel pushing, iron pulling, tin sense, pewter durability, gold healing, steel speed, bronze detection, copper concealment, rioting and soothing all being used via medallions and in vehicles/gadgets I think would massively change the face of war on Scadrial. 

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On 7/14/2019 at 1:14 PM, Karger said:

Wars during a comparable human time technologically like The First World War and the American Civil War were characterized by long sieges, heavy human costs, and indefinite waits but what happens when you throw metalborn into the mix?

If I remember correctly from my history class, this happened because they had machine guns and other things that could just mow down lines of soldiers, so they put men in trenches to prevent wasting the lives of soldiers. However, things like tanks and aircraft made trenches obsolete, because people could get to the trenches by going in tanks, and they could fly over the trenches to come from both sides, and they could drop grenades down and stuff. With the existence of aircraft, and the metallic arts, I don’t think that trenches would be a solution that would work for very long. So the wars probably wouldn’t be that bad. 

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Also, due to the location of the Terris Village, New Elendel would likely have far more feruchemists even if it’s still not very much 

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On 7/14/2019 at 1:14 PM, Karger said:

Wars during a comparable human time technologically like The First World War and the American Civil War were characterized by long sieges, heavy human costs, and indefinite waits but what happens when you throw metalborn into the mix?

I’d compare the time period to pre-civil war. They do have a very advanced rail system, but they lack any kind of instant  communication and especially the chemical warfare and other advanced weaponry you saw in WWI

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9 minutes ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

I’d compare the time period to pre-civil war. They do have a very advanced rail system, but they lack any kind of instant  communication and especially the chemical warfare and other advanced weaponry you saw in WWI

They have the telegraph and chemical warfare while gruesome was actually less important to either world war then people believe it is.

14 minutes ago, Ethan_Sedai said:

If I remember correctly from my history class, this happened because they had machine guns and other things that could just mow down lines of soldiers, so they put men in trenches to prevent wasting the lives of soldiers. However, things like tanks and aircraft made trenches obsolete, because people could get to the trenches by going in tanks, and they could fly over the trenches to come from both sides, and they could drop grenades down and stuff. With the existence of aircraft, and the metallic arts, I don’t think that trenches would be a solution that would work for very long. So the wars probably wouldn’t be that bad. 

Very good but remember metalborn are rare.  I am not sure if there are enough coinshots to make a difference and the Northerners do not yet have aircraft.

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2 minutes ago, Karger said:

They have the telegraph and chemical warfare while gruesome was actually less important to either world war then people believe it is.

I didn’t realize they had the telegraph, still I think that would put them smack in the middle of civil war tech.

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19 minutes ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

Also, due to the location of the Terris Village, New Elendel would likely have far more feruchemists even if it’s still not very much 

The residents of the Terris Village are pacifists if I recall correctly. That was the big conflict between Wax and his Terris heritage. 

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Posted (edited)

@Karger ... wait, they have cars too, in between civil war and WWI is definitely the right period, my bad

Edited by Truthwatcher_17.5
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Posted (edited)

12 minutes ago, Karger said:

Very good but remember metalborn are rare.  I am not sure if there are enough coinshots to make a difference and the Northerners do not yet have aircraft.

I’m just saying that if technology already exists that can counter trench warfare, then it won’t be used as much. It still might be used, but generals would ask “What if they brought all of their Coinshots to this position and punched a hole in our defences, what would we do then?” 

And honestly, if this did happen, I don’t think they would just go “they punched a hole in our defences, let’s try that again and dig more trenches.”

 

Edit: Sorry if that sounded mean, I’m not good at conveying tone using text.

Edited by Ethan_Sedai
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9 minutes ago, Ethan_Sedai said:

I’m just saying that if technology already exists that can counter trench warfare, then it won’t be used as much. It still might be used, but generals would ask “What if they brought all of their Coinshots to this position and punched a hole in our defences, what would we do then?” 

Well for a start Coinshots are extremely valuable.  It takes several years to make a new one and their are a limited number of them in supply.  A general's conversation might go "well they punched a hole in our defenses but we killed 30 coinshots so we are still about even."  Coinshots also have several weaknesses.  They need an anchor so a good lurcher can pull them out of the sky.  They can be easily detected by a seeker(I don't know the range of a coppercloud but a coinshot will have trouble moving one with them).  A tineye or windwhisper can spot them even in the dark.  Aluminum bullets can hit them just as easily as anyone else.

16 minutes ago, Ethan_Sedai said:

Edit: Sorry if that sounded mean, I’m not good at conveying tone using text.

No problem.

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Posted (edited)

22 minutes ago, Karger said:

Well for a start Coinshots are extremely valuable.  It takes several years to make a new one and their are a limited number of them in supply.  A general's conversation might go "well they punched a hole in our defenses but we killed 30 coinshots so we are still about even."  Coinshots also have several weaknesses.  They need an anchor so a good lurcher can pull them out of the sky.  They can be easily detected by a seeker(I don't know the range of a coppercloud but a coinshot will have trouble moving one with them).  A tineye or windwhisper can spot them even in the dark.  Aluminum bullets can hit them just as easily as anyone else.

Admittedly metalborn are relatively rare, but Wax comments on how coinshots are among the most common, and they are common enough that they are regularly used as couriers. In order to kill 30 coinshots that punched a hole in your defenses, you would need to use either aluminum (which at this point in the narrative is very rare and obscenely expensive) or non-metallic weapons. Crossbows don't have much range. If you are firing guns at them, you run the risk of those weapons being turned against you. Wax comments on as long as he knows bullets are going to be fired he can push them back towards the shooter, even without his steel bubble. A lurcher yanking on a coinshot needs an anchor as well, and if the coinshot functions like a mistborn (metals in tear away bags), then there is nothing for the lurcher to lurch. Seekers would detect them yes, though a copper cloud has a large range (from what we see of Clubs, they are able to hide a whole building worth rather easily). A pair of coinshots could carry a copper cloud between them and that would be enough to mask the whole platoon. A seeker and a tineye would be common means of guarding area, though an attacking force could shoot up flares blinding the tineyes, while the copper clouds hide them from the seekers. Come in low and fast, hit hard, and then retreat. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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Some good points but...

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

In order to kill 30 coinshots that punched a hole in your defenses, you would need to use either aluminum (which at this point in the narrative is very rare and obscenely expensive) or non-metallic weapons. Crossbows don't have much range. If you are firing guns at them, you run the risk of those weapons being turned against you. Wax comments on as long as he knows bullets are going to be fired he can push them back towards the shooter, even without his steel bubble.

I don't think an individual coinshot can keep track of everybody in an entire army shooting at them which is what they would need to do.  A group of lurchers provided with some aluminum cases might be able to destabilize a coinshot for long enough for someone to shoot them.

5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Seekers would detect them yes, though a copper cloud has a large range (from what we see of Clubs, they are able to hide a whole building worth rather easily)

Seekers would most likely be paired for redundancy.  If they suddenly stop feeling each other they will know about the cloud and raise the alarm.

9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

A seeker and a tineye would be common means of guarding area, though an attacking force could shoot up flares blinding the tineyes, while the copper clouds hide them from the seekers. Come in, hit hard, and then retreat. 

I wonder if you can prevent a tineye from being blinded by something like sunglasses.  Also the tineye does not have to do the shooting themselves just spot you in time to raise the alarm.  Finally if the tineye is doing the shooting themselves you still must outrange them with whatever kind of flare you are using.  The flair has to be close enough to blind them but you have to be far enough away that they cannot see you and still not announce your presence with a flare? 

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Posted (edited)

36 minutes ago, Karger said:

Some good points but...

I don't think an individual coinshot can keep track of everybody in an entire army shooting at them which is what they would need to do.  A group of lurchers provided with some aluminum cases might be able to destabilize a coinshot for long enough for someone to shoot them.

Don't need to keep track of everyone in the army. The way Wax described it, is if he knew people were going to be shooting at him, he could do a general strong push in that direction, sending the bullets back at the shooters. Actually I am in the process of re-reading Alloy of Law currently, so I have an example. At the wedding Wax mentions to himself about doing exactly that, though in Wax's case he was concerned that innocent bystanders who were mixed in with the shooters might get hit by accident. Basically the coinshot is not expecting pinpoint accuracy when sending the bullets back. The goal is to disperse the bullets, and send enough flying back that you might take out a person or two. 

As to the aluminum cases, could you explain because I am confused. What is the aluminum case for and how is it used by a lurcher to destabilize a coinshot?

Quote

Seekers would most likely be paired for redundancy.  If they suddenly stop feeling each other they will know about the cloud and raise the alarm.

To clarify, this is how I envisioned things at first. So you have a base perimeter right? And at that perimeter you have a seeker burning bronze, to sense pulses coming from the battlefield to warn regarding incoming allomancers. The crew of coinshots fly in low with the copper cloud. Flare goes up to blind the tineyes. Fly in closer. Seekers cannot sense where the allomancy is coming from, so cannot direct the commanders to the source of the breach. Coinshots approach. By the time the seeker notices they cannot sense their own pulses, the coinshots are flying in, and are in shooting range of the seekers. 

Perimeter      Range of Seeker      Range of Tineye        Approaching Coinshot Team

|                                 S                              T                                       C  (coinshots begin flying in low)

|                                 S                              T  C (coinshots fire flares towards Tineyes)

|                                 S             C               T     (coinshots are in Tineye range, but tineyes are disorientated)           

|               C               S                               T     (coinshots are within seeker range undetected due to copper cloud, having trouble locating breach)     

|     C                          S                                  (Tineye by this point have recovered, but coinshots are in range, unloading on target. coinshots then flee, shooting off another flare in their retreat)            

 

Quote

I wonder if you can prevent a tineye from being blinded by something like sunglasses.  Also the tineye does not have to do the shooting themselves just spot you in time to raise the alarm.  Finally if the tineye is doing the shooting themselves you still must outrange them with whatever kind of flare you are using.  The flair has to be close enough to blind them but you have to be far enough away that they cannot see you and still not announce your presence with a flare? 

Spook went as far as covering his eyes with cloth and he still felt blinded by the sun, though that is in the case of a savant. Ranette mentions firing a gun with loud rounds around a tineye is enough to overwhelm them. The idea with the flare is you are just outside their sight range. You fire the flares arcing towards them disorientating them briefly. The example I am giving is regarding hitting hard and fast and getting out. The idea is the prevent the enemy from knowing where you are hitting, and how so you have enough time to do as much damage as possible and get out before they can organize a suitable defense. So yes the flare announces you are attacking, but the enemy does not know where to focus their defenses. The intent is not for a perfect stealth mission without detection. If I wanted to do that, I would accomplish that differently. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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Posted (edited)

18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Seekers cannot sense where the allomancy is coming from, so cannot direct the commanders to the source of the breach. Coinshots approach. By the time the seeker notices they cannot sense their own pulses, the coinshots are flying in, and are in shooting range of the seekers. 

Depending on the number of alomancers in the army a seeker could still tell direction by which alomancers went silent first.

Edited by Karger
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5 minutes ago, Karger said:

Depending on the number of alomancers in the army a seeker could still tell direction by which alomancers went silent first.

Could you clarify? From what I understand of seeking, when an allomancer burns their metal, a "ripple" beats out, centered on the allomancer. A seeker senses this ripple. A copper cloud hides this ripple. So during the seeker would not sense any ripples coming from the enemy allomancers. By the time the copper cloud obscures the enemy seeker, the coinshots would be within range to fire. In this example it is a small force for a guerilla attack. 

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32 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Seekers cannot sense where the allomancy is coming from, so cannot direct the commanders to the source of the breach

IIRC they can. While Vin is training with Moash she mentions that she can feel Kelsier beneath them. Granted Vin is a special case but Moash didn’t comment on it.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Wax comments on how coinshots are among the most common

At a different (I believe earlier) time he comments on them being relatively rare. I don’t remember where exactly in the books both comments are, but I remember noticing it on my first read and pinpointing it on the next.  I think the one about them being common is was in reference to criminals though. i.e. more coinshots turn to crime than tineyes

Edit: upon further consideration I believe it was in BoM while talking about his status as one of only three crashers ever born.

Edited by Truthwatcher_17.5
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They have no instant communication. They’re in a weird place with what tech is developed 

Questioner(paraphrased)

People are going crazy wondering if there are telegraphs and telephones in Alloy of Law. Are there? And if not, why?

Brandon Sanderson(paraphrased)

There are not yet. And the reason why is because they haven’t needed them yet. Necessity is the, what the fuel of invention?

Audience Member(paraphrased)

The mother of invention

Brandon Sanderson(paraphrased)

Yes, the mother of invention, and they have messengers who run, Coinshots who are very fast. They also basically don’t need to go outside the City, and haven’t for a long time. They’re close, but they haven’t invented them yet for the same reason that they have very poor navigation techniques. Why do you need to ship anything or sail anywhere when you have some idyllic paradise to live in? And you have allomancers, who in some ways are preventing from achieving that next level, because a Coinshot can get it there really fast, and so you’re only waiting a few minutes for them to come back with your message, so it can actually stifle a little bit of technology by having a not-quite-as-good magical solution.

West Jordan signing (Dec. 15, 2011)
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