Truthwatcher_17.5

Kelsier’s Spike

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Posted (edited)

I’ve been thinking about Kelsier in the 2nd era and his likely status of a fullborn, and it hit me that he wouldn’t want Harmony/Sazed to have any control over him. Thus, he likely only has one spike. A single spike that grants him access to all of Feruchemy and strengthens at least his steel (evidenced by his steel sight). This leads me to believe that he has a Lerisium spike fashioned from a fullborn. Are the any reasons this wouldn’t be the case, and if I’m correct who would have been spiked?

Edited by Truthwatcher_17.5
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I don't think that Kelsier would really care about Sazed having control over him. He knows Sazed to well for that.

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We really don't know how many spikes Kelsier might have. At least the eye spike that connects his CS to the body, but beyond that, we don't really have any guesses. It could be one, none or twenty.

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10 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

I’ve been thinking about Kelsier in the 2nd era and his likely s tatus of a fullborn, and it hit me that he wouldn’t want Harmony/Sazed to have any control over him. Thus, he likely only has one spike. A single spike that grants him access to all of Feruchemy and strengthens at least his steel (evidenced by his steel sight). This leads me to believe that he has a Lerisium spike fashioned from a fullborn. Are the any reasons this wouldn’t be the case, and if I’m correct who would have been spiked?

I suppose he has full Feruchemy because he stapled himself into a Mistwraith. They were Terris in origin. He got it from them.

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8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I suppose he has full Feruchemy because he stapled himself into a Mistwraith. They were Terris in origin. He got it from them.

While it's possible that he has Feruchemy, stapling himself into a mistwraith wouldn't do anything by default. The First Generation were Rashek's friends stapled back into their bodies as mistwraiths, and they weren't Feruchemists any more. That was part of the whole point of turning them into mistwraiths.

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3 minutes ago, RShara said:

While it's possible that he has Feruchemy, stapling himself into a mistwraith wouldn't do anything by default. The First Generation were Rashek's friends stapled back into their bodies as mistwraiths, and they weren't Feruchemists any more. That was part of the whole point of turning them into mistwraiths.

Kandra are not Feruchemists (unless they get it by hemalurgy from a feruchemist). Yet the change from the original Terrispeople to Kandra has two steps, turning them into mistwraiths and spiking them into Kandra. We do not know when Feruchemy is lost. Feruchemy as such was not a problem. Mixing it with Allomancy needed to be prevented. So feruchemy in a population of mistwraiths, who are stupid and do not breed with humans, is not a problem.

Yet Kelsier got his face back. So he is in a mistwraith or a Kandra. Finding a mistwraith was far easier an option and removes the problem of dealing with an occupied body. And he gets Feruchemical powers but from a stock of Feruchemists. And he apparently being able to build the bands has all the powers not just those know during his life time. Hence he would have to have spiked a full Feruchemist. This is too large a coincidence.

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2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Kandra are not Feruchemists (unless they get it by hemalurgy from a feruchemist). Yet the change from the original Terrispeople to Kandra has two steps, turning them into mistwraiths and spiking them into Kandra. We do not know when Feruchemy is lost. Feruchemy as such was not a problem. Mixing it with Allomancy needed to be prevented. So feruchemy in a population of mistwraiths, who are stupid and do not breed with humans, is not a problem.

Yet Kelsier got his face back. So he is in a mistwraith or a Kandra. Finding a mistwraith was far easier an option and removes the problem of dealing with an occupied body. And he gets Feruchemical powers but from a stock of Feruchemists. And he apparently being able to build the bands has all the powers not just those know during his life time. Hence he would have to have spiked a full Feruchemist. This is too large a coincidence.

And yet, the First Generation aren't Feruchemists, so that really doesn't work.

Also, we do not know if Kelsier got his face back. We only know that he has a face, and scars on his arms. The scars on his arms could be similar to Stormlight Spoilers

Spoiler

Kaladin's scars, or how Leshwi's facial patterns were the same in both of her bodies, even though the actual face and bones looked different.

 

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On 7/12/2019 at 8:46 PM, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

I’ve been thinking about Kelsier in the 2nd era and his likely status of a fullborn, and it hit me that he wouldn’t want Harmony/Sazed to have any control over him. Thus, he likely only has one spike. A single spike that grants him access to all of Feruchemy and strengthens at least his steel (evidenced by his steel sight). This leads me to believe that he has a Lerisium spike fashioned from a fullborn. Are the any reasons this wouldn’t be the case, and if I’m correct who would have been spiked?

As far as we know there are no fullborn after Reshek other then Kelseir himself.

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I agree with you about Kell only having one spike. It’s not just Saze who’s influence Spikes open him to.

I think he’s a Feruchemist the way the first ones gained the power; that method is unknown, but Kell did hold Preservation for a time. He could have figured it out.

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Personally, I think there's something else going on with the Bands of Mourning that indicates Kelsier couldn't have done it alone. The level of Allomantic power the Bands gave Marasi and Wax seemed more on par with the Lord Ruler's power than Kelsier's. The Feruchemical power level is a little harder to nail down because it's not easy to determine how much was stored in the Bands. Increased Feruchemical strength would affect the ability to store and use attributes but without the knowledge of what was in them before they got to them doesn't tell us much about them other than they make a person Fullborn while holding them. The only way I can see the Band's power coming elusively from Kelsier is if somehow his time in the Well and/or time spent holding Preservation increased his Allomantic power, and I'm not really sure that's a thing.  Also, to address the OP, I think his eye spike just grants A-Steel. It's the one power I could see Kelsier wishing for extra strength in and if he had a Lerasium spike, I can't see him putting it in his eye. Also, now that I think of it, it definitely can't be a Feruchemical spike because it is granting him Steel Sight and that is completely separate from Feruchemy. 

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On 7/13/2019 at 9:33 PM, RShara said:

And yet, the First Generation aren't Feruchemists, so that really doesn't work.

Wasn't that the whole point he did not just give them Lerasium like his other allies, that they were Feruchemists? They cannot use Feruchemy as Kandra. But Kandra are spiked constructs. Their spiritweb is altered. Concluding that reversing the process that turned them into mistwraiths would gain the same results in terms of metallic arts as spiking them into Kandra is daring. Kandra do not have eye spikes.

On 7/13/2019 at 9:33 PM, RShara said:

Also, we do not know if Kelsier got his face back. We only know that he has a face, and scars on his arms. The scars on his arms could be similar to Stormlight Spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

Kaladin's scars, or how Leshwi's facial patterns were the same in both of her bodies, even though the actual face and bones looked different.

 

Possible, but which body is a cognitive influence most likely on? And would Spook readily cooperate with a plan of just spiking somebody?

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Posted (edited)

23 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

Personally, I think there's something else going on with the Bands of Mourning that indicates Kelsier couldn't have done it alone. The level of Allomantic power the Bands gave Marasi and Wax seemed more on par with the Lord Ruler's power than Kelsier's. The Feruchemical power level is a little harder to nail down because it's not easy to determine how much was stored in the Bands. Increased Feruchemical strength would affect the ability to store and use attributes but without the knowledge of what was in them before they got to them doesn't tell us much about them other than they make a person Fullborn while holding them. The only way I can see the Band's power coming elusively from Kelsier is if somehow his time in the Well and/or time spent holding Preservation increased his Allomantic power, and I'm not really sure that's a thing.  Also, to address the OP, I think his eye spike just grants A-Steel. It's the one power I could see Kelsier wishing for extra strength in and if he had a Lerasium spike, I can't see him putting it in his eye. Also, now that I think of it, it definitely can't be a Feruchemical spike because it is granting him Steel Sight and that is completely separate from Feruchemy. 

Per WOB That's how the Lord Ruler did it initially:

 

Quote

 

Chris King

Did the Lord Ruler use lerasium to gain his super Allomantic abilities or did he grant that to himself with the Well's power? If he used the bead, does he count as one of the nine original Allomancers that Sazed mentions?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. He did not use the bead. He-- In all of this he granted himself basically, he rebuilt himself to be extremely powerful and he did not use one of the beads.

Chris King interview (Sept. 24, 2013)

 

  Edited by Quantus
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4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Wasn't that the whole point he did not just give them Lerasium like his other allies, that they were Feruchemists? They cannot use Feruchemy as Kandra. But Kandra are spiked constructs. Their spiritweb is altered. Concluding that reversing the process that turned them into mistwraiths would gain the same results in terms of metallic arts as spiking them into Kandra is daring. Kandra do not have eye spikes.

Possible, but which body is a cognitive influence most likely on? And would Spook readily cooperate with a plan of just spiking somebody?

I'm a little confused as to what you're saying right now, sorry?

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Has anyone considered Kelsier might not be a Fearuchemist. I believe Feruchemy is not related to the shards so it's possible the southerners might have access to it. Kelsier would have learned how to make the medallions when he ascended. He may have just told them how to make feruchemy anyone can use. Then Kelsier might have passed down his allomancy. Really that's the only way I could see the southerners having allomancy.

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Posted (edited)

7 minutes ago, Aluminum said:

Has anyone considered Kelsier might not be a Fearuchemist. I believe Feruchemy is not related to the shards so it's possible the southerners might have access to it.

All Investiture in the Cosmere is related to the Shards and feruchemy was explicitly brought about due to the combination of Preservation and Ruin's Investiture.

Quote

Really that's the only way I could see the southerners having allomancy.

The Southerners have allomancy for the same reason that it existed before Rashek's Ascension: The seeds of the magic are in everyone on Scadrial.

WoBs for reference:

Quote

Comatose

So here's my last question. If there ARE people on the other side of the world, did Vin kill them all by placing the sun on their side, or do they have they're own Ruin/Preservation battle going on over there as well? Do they also have allomancy feruchemy and hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

No, they're not dead. Yes, Rashek was aware of them. In fact, he placed them there as a reserve. I knew he wanted a 'control' group of people in case his changes to genetics ended with the race being in serious trouble. All I'll say is that he found a way other than changing them genetically to help them survive in the world he created. And since they were created by Ruin and Preservation, they have the seeds of the Three Metallic Arts in them—though without anyone among them having burned Lerasium, Allomancers would have been very rare in their population and full Mistborn unheard of.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)
Quote

Questioner

With Allomancy is of Preservation, and you have Hemalurgy, which is of Ruin. Is Feruchemy a joint effort between the two? Or is it a third party?

Brandon Sanderson

Joint effort.

FanX 2018 (Sept. 8, 2018)

 

Edited by Weltall
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19 hours ago, RShara said:

I'm a little confused as to what you're saying right now, sorry?

The band of Terrismen Rashek was a part of were Feruchemists. We have incidents from the logs describing Feruchemy, not just in Rashek. Feruchemy was common among he Terrispeople in Rashek's time. TLR could not give them Lerasium. He would have created Fullborn.

Hence he turned them into Mistwaraiths. What would we get if you turn a Mistwraith back into a human? If the process were fully reversable, a Feruchemist.
It is true that Kandra weren't Feruchemists, not even the first generation. But why is that, because they were turned into Mistwraiths or spiked into Kandra?

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4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The band of Terrismen Rashek was a part of were Feruchemists. We have incidents from the logs describing Feruchemy, not just in Rashek. Feruchemy was common among he Terrispeople in Rashek's time. TLR could not give them Lerasium. He would have created Fullborn.

Hence he turned them into Mistwaraiths. What would we get if you turn a Mistwraith back into a human? If the process were fully reversable, a Feruchemist.
It is true that Kandra weren't Feruchemists, not even the first generation. But why is that, because they were turned into Mistwraiths or spiked into Kandra?

I'm sure that it would have been when they were turned into mistwraiths, as that's when their SDNA would be changed. From human to non. From Feruchemist to non.

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On 7/15/2019 at 7:29 AM, Quantus said:

Per WOB That's how the Lord Ruler did it initially:

 

 

Hmm I guess technically Kelsier could have altered his spirit web while he was holding Preservation. For some reason I was thinking he would have to have a physical body to alter and make into a powerful Mistborn but if my memory of how Lerasium works is correct, it just rewrites your spirit web to make you a Mistborn. Kelsier would have had knowledge of how Rashek did that for himself and he knew he wasn't going to be a permanent vessel for the Shard, so he may have planned ahead for regaining a physical body. It does seem very Kelsier. 

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I can’t fins the WoB because my phone won’t let me, but isn’t there a WoB that Kelsier’s spike isn’t lerasium?

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13 hours ago, Ethan_Sedai said:

I can’t fins the WoB because my phone won’t let me, but isn’t there a WoB that Kelsier’s spike isn’t lerasium?

Here you go:

 

 

Quote

 

Questioner

So I just finished Secret History about an hour ago.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay.

Questioner

And I just have a simple yes or no question? Is Kelsier's spike made of lerasium?

Brandon Sanderson

No... Good question.

Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016)

 

 

18 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

Hmm I guess technically Kelsier could have altered his spirit web while he was holding Preservation. For some reason I was thinking he would have to have a physical body to alter and make into a powerful Mistborn but if my memory of how Lerasium works is correct, it just rewrites your spirit web to make you a Mistborn. Kelsier would have had knowledge of how Rashek did that for himself and he knew he wasn't going to be a permanent vessel for the Shard, so he may have planned ahead for regaining a physical body. It does seem very Kelsier. 

As far as I understand it the changes that would grant you Allomancy or Feruchemy are both Spiritweb sDNA things, even though they are hereditary.  Given how many things get their bodies grossly transformed by Spiritweb changes (kandra, Kolos, Returned, Singers) I think that if he changed his web the Body would follow, and the fact that his new body looks like him supports that (unless he's stapled to a Kandra/Mistwraith, I suppose)/

We do know per another WOB that the, or at least A Spike is what is holding his Spirit onto that Body (and that the body is not Spooks). 

 

 

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On 7/14/2019 at 10:02 AM, Harrycrapper said:

Personally, I think there's something else going on with the Bands of Mourning that indicates Kelsier couldn't have done it alone. The level of Allomantic power the Bands gave Marasi and Wax seemed more on par with the Lord Ruler's power than Kelsier's.

Kelsier as we knew him in his original lifetime, certainly. But to make the Bands at all he would have had to get access to Nicrosil Feruchemy. Since he was already a Mistborn, that would let him use Nicrosil Compounding to boost his Allomantic strength to maximum. I think that is how it would work anyway...

Being a Sliver of Preservation could also give him somewhat of a boost (IIRC, there's some evidence comparing descriptions in WOA and HOA that Vin is stronger in the latter, but still not as strong as Elend), but I don't think it's necessary, as he could Nicrosil Compound to maximum ("mistpoint") strength even from regular, diminished power Allomancer strength.

On 7/14/2019 at 10:02 AM, Harrycrapper said:

Also, now that I think of it, it definitely can't be a Feruchemical spike because it is granting him Steel Sight and that is completely separate from Feruchemy. 

Yes, from the coppermind at the end of BOM, the eye spike must be either allomantic steel or iron given the blue-lines-vision. (Which is a bit odd, since that's a power Kelsier already has...)

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On 7/18/2019 at 11:41 PM, cometaryorbit said:

Kelsier as we knew him in his original lifetime, certainly. But to make the Bands at all he would have had to get access to Nicrosil Feruchemy. Since he was already a Mistborn, that would let him use Nicrosil Compounding to boost his Allomantic strength to maximum. I think that is how it would work anyway...

Being a Sliver of Preservation could also give him somewhat of a boost (IIRC, there's some evidence comparing descriptions in WOA and HOA that Vin is stronger in the latter, but still not as strong as Elend), but I don't think it's necessary, as he could Nicrosil Compound to maximum ("mistpoint") strength even from regular, diminished power Allomancer strength.

Yes, from the coppermind at the end of BOM, the eye spike must be either allomantic steel or iron given the blue-lines-vision. (Which is a bit odd, since that's a power Kelsier already has...)

Vin's extra strength was stated by Sazed in the epigraphs of HoA to have likely been caused by her inhaling some mist before she got her earring and other times she managed to do that. However, I feel like the fact that she never used the power in WoA makes her a poor example for proving or disproving whether have held Preservation's power makes one a stronger allomancer. Honesty, I would have bought that just using the power like Rashek did made him stronger that other Mistborn, but the WOB seems to indicate that Rashek did that on purpose, it wasn't incidental. The Nicrosil Feruchemy is definitely a possibility explaining why the Bands were so powerful though, I hadn't thought of that. On the last point, the Steel/Iron sight that the eye spikes grant seem to have much more strength than normal Steel/Iron sight. The Steel Inquisitor that we got a viewpoint from in Final Empire could read peoples' emotions just by the way the metal moved in their bodies. It's also kinda like a weird X-ray vision and you can identify things that are obscured by a wall or some sort of other visual obstruction. Also, if there were any power that Kelsier would want more strength in, it's A-Steel. We saw the stuff Zane could do with his extra strength, Kelsier would be even scarier. 

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3 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

Vin's extra strength was stated by Sazed in the epigraphs of HoA to have likely been caused by her inhaling some mist before she got her earring and other times she managed to do that.

I'm not talking about her basic strength that she already has in the first two books, but stuff like how she "pewter-jumps" 7 feet when sparring with Ham early in WOA and everyone is shocked that she can do that, but she jumps... 11 feet or something... in HOA. Without using iron/steel.

Quote

However, I feel like the fact that she never used the power in WoA makes her a poor example for proving or disproving whether have held Preservation's power makes one a stronger allomancer. Honesty, I would have bought that just using the power like Rashek did made him stronger that other Mistborn, but the WOB seems to indicate that Rashek did that on purpose, it wasn't incidental.

Good point. It did qualify her as a Sliver though, and Sazed's epigraph says that it "attuned" her to take up the entirety of the mists, so I do think holding but not using the power had some effect.

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