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Nightblood’s Mechanics Solved! (Maybe?)


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Nightblood is one of the most heavily Invested non-Shards in the cosmere. He grows more Invested each time he “destroys evil.” My best guess is this happens because Nightblood implements the cosmere’s Second Law of Thermodynamics. He is an entropy-creation machine that seeks thermodynamic equilibrium.

Brandon says Nightblood holds Ruin’s Investiture. I think Nightblood uses Ruin to execute his “destroy evil” command. Ruin’s “primal force”  is entropy. I don’t know what role if any Ruin had at Nightblood’s creation or why Nightblood would be so difficult to replicate. We do know Nightblood destroys in all three Realms, the ultimate act of entropy.

I speculate Nightblood’s consumed Investiture increases his internal entropy. This Investiture seems to come from his victims’ Spiritual aspects. Spiritual aspects hold a person’s Connections, including (says Kelsier in M:SH Part Three-3) a Connection to “God,” that person’s native Shard. The consumed Investiture should thus be raw, stripped of all its Connections. In the cosmere, nothing is more disordered or has higher entropy than “dangerous” raw Investiture. That may be why Nightblood leaks smoke – the gaseous state is the most disordered.

I think Nightblood ramps up his destruction and stops when he does to achieve thermodynamic equilibrium: “In thermodynamic equilibrium there are no net...flows of matter or of energy [or Investiture] between systems.”

Nightblood sheathed is a closed system. When his wielder draws him, Nightblood is exposed to the outside environment, a different system. That environment is more ordered and has lower entropy. Nightblood acts to increase his environment’s entropy to bring his internal entropy into balance with it. His command to destroy evil accomplishes that.

As Nightblood consumes his victims’ raw Investiture, his internal entropy increases. I think this causes him to accelerate his destruction. Eventually Nightblood either reaches thermodynamic equilibrium or his wielder sheathes him. When he stops killing, he retains the unused raw Investiture: “In all processes that occur...the total entropy of the system and its surroundings increases and the process is irreversible in the thermodynamic sense.” I believe this is why Nightblood grows in power over time.

Not having studied science in fifty years, I’m probably wrong on all this. But I can’t think of another reason, and Brandon does love his thermodynamics. What do you cosmere scientists think?

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I like this. It explains the mechanics in a different way.

I always thought that NB was so heavily invested because the rate of Investiture going into him has always been more than Investiture coming out.

Nightblood seems to be like a giant Investiture mill. It saps Investiture constantly when unsheathed, and grinds it down until there is no semblance of structure or association left, which then leaks as black smoke slowly. But the rate of leakage is just extremely slow, whereas he absorbs large chunks of investiture almost instantly.

His command is "Destroy Evil". This is just the Destroy part. Warbreaker annotations state the he wasn't equipped to understand what the "Evil" part represents. So his logic is essentially, if somebody wants to use him to do evil, then they're evil. This is the effect that Vasher uses constantly in Warbreaker.

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36 minutes ago, Confused said:

Not having studied science in fifty years, I’m probably wrong on all this. But I can’t think of another reason, and Brandon does love his thermodynamics. What do you cosmere scientists think?

Why does he need to be fueled when drawn though?

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Okay, a thought that can be a little (or quite much) crazy and I'm putting it here before I decide it is too chaotic to share. So here we go.

I feel like Nightblood can be similar to a black hole. It will 'eat' (sorry, I can't find a better word) any amount of Investiture just because it is so heavily Invested. (The black smoke is like the part of matter that gets out of the black hole - sorry for putting it so chaotic and simple at one but I'm not good at physics and don't know how to call it correctly). To me, it leads to an 'internal' perpendicularity - there is no way to use it as a typical one - but is a reason why it Nightblood destroys in all three Realms - in the sword they are one. 

And, kind of using that we're on Nightblood, could someone tell me if it is possible that the presence of Ruin's Investiture was caused by the Command - 'destroy' is almost exactly the Intent of Ruin?

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4 hours ago, Karger said:

Why does he need to be fueled when drawn though?

This is why I like calling Nightblood a mill.

Think of a wind mill that takes wheat and grinds it down to flour. The "wheat" is the investiture content of whatever you hit with Nightblood. The "flour" is Nightblood's own internal investiture, which leaks out slowly as black smoke.

And any investiture that it's wielder is invested with serves the same function as the wind would in a wind mill.

Edited by TheFoxQR
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I would agree that it's command is what collected the Ruinous Investiture.  ADDITIONALLY, it could be the excess Ruin investiture that Harmony has to keep busy.  Since the shards exist primarily in the spiritual realm, such a command could be fueled by any shard, no?  I don't -think- this, but I think it is a possible solution. 

It leaks smoke because Ruin's mist is black smoke.  Ruin also steals investiture with the intent of destruction.  Whilst drawn it absorbs investiture at a quick rate from the wielder AND the enemies.  Additionally, Ruin's investiture could be doing -a lot-.  Once cut the victim is disintegrated because the sword -touches blood- with "Intent" to destroy.  It's black metal, or began that way...I would NOT be surprised if that black metal has something to do with Atium.  (The Pits of Hathsin was the Ruin Singularity.)  

And MORE? We've only seen people who are heavily invested use Nightblood POV.  Or, people who had more than enough reason to be crazy.   The talking in the mind is a Ruin trait, And people talk to him "OUTLOUD" in response.  More Ruin connections.  


Again, I don't think this...it's just very interesting once you actually think about all the Ruin connections with Nightblood.  Hemalurgy is the thing we know that causes the most damage to the spiritweb, currently. 

Edited by First Witness
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39 minutes ago, First Witness said:

I would agree that it's command is what collected the Ruinous Investiture.  ADDITIONALLY, it could be the excess Ruin investiture that Harmony has to keep busy.  Since the shards exist primarily in the spiritual realm, such a command could be fueled by any shard, no?  I don't -think- this, but I think it is a possible solution. 

It leaks smoke because Ruin's mist is black smoke.  Ruin also steals investiture with the intent of destruction.  Whilst drawn it absorbs investiture at a quick rate from the wielder AND the enemies.  Additionally, Ruin's investiture could be doing -a lot-.  Once cut the victim is disintegrated because the sword -touches blood- with "Intent" to destroy.  It's black metal, or began that way...I would NOT be surprised if that black metal has something to do with Atium.  (The Pits of Hathsin was the Ruin Singularity.)  

And MORE? We've only seen people who are heavily invested use Nightblood POV.  Or, people who had more than enough reason to be crazy.   The talking in the mind is a Ruin trait, And people talk to him "OUTLOUD" in response.  More Ruin connections.  


Again, I don't think this...it's just very interesting once you actually think about all the Ruin connections with Nightblood.  Hemalurgy is the thing we know that causes the most damage to the spiritweb, currently. 

Nightblood was created before Sazed Ascended. From what we can tell, it's simply a chunk of Ruin floating around nearby, that Ruin wasn't aware of and so wasn't in control of.

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20 minutes ago, First Witness said:

Are we sure on that timing?  I've always had trouble with timelines in this way.  I'm sure you are right, but for my edification can I get the reference?  So I can do comparisons for future things? 

Nightblood was made before the Manywar, which was ~300 years before the events of Warbreaker. Warbreaker takes place between Era 1 and Stormlight Archive. Era 2 takes place somewhere around Stormlight Archive book 6. There's 340 years from the Catacendre to Era 2.

Given time for the sequel, Nightblood, to happen, plus travel time for Vasher and Vivenna to get to Roshar, Warbreaker would take place somewhere between 20 and 300 years before Stormlight Archive. So even assuming Warbreaker takes place as late as possible--20 years before SA, 300+ years before that would be before Sazed Ascends.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JJtJhHwpKdow01n2-bsT3scVvqJd6lZh4uvpNwcslv8/edit#gid=0

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RShara,

I see investiture as having 16 sides or dimensions.

Shard holder's have access to 1 side or dimension. Sazed two.

Shard holder's not being aware of there institute I see as outside there mental awareness, which extends to the solar system.

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50 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

RShara,

I see investiture as having 16 sides or dimensions.

Shard holder's have access to 1 side or dimension. Sazed two.

Shard holder's not being aware of there institute I see as outside there mental awareness, which extends to the solar system.

I'm not sure what relevance that has to my point, sorry?

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3 hours ago, First Witness said:

And MORE? We've only seen people who are heavily invested use Nightblood POV.  Or, people who had more than enough reason to be crazy.   The talking in the mind is a Ruin trait, And people talk to him "OUTLOUD" in response.  More Ruin connections.

Talking in the mind is not Ruin exclusive, nor is it particularly something that they can do anywhere. Preservation being able to listen to people and Ruin being able to talk to people is possible on Scadrial, because of the Shards' unique relation to... everything on that planet.

Also, by this measure, the Spren should have ruin in them, because they can talk to their Radiants in their heads.

The reason cracked people were able to listen to Kelsier was because they were able to perceive the Cognitive a little bit.

 

1 hour ago, Thanatos said:

Shard holder's not being aware of there institute I see as outside there mental awareness, which extends to the solar system.

It's not limited by Solar System. Relevant WoBs:

Quote

Paladin Brewer (paraphrased)

How far can a Shardholder see beyond his own world?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

In the Spiritual Realm they can see infinitely. Calamity San Antonio signing (Feb. 26, 2016)

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?"

The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three.

When people ask, "What Shard is this Investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing.

I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time.

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of mater and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018)

 

Imho, it's something like this: A vessel is a person sitting on a room. The sum total of all investiture associated with that Shard is represented as every surface inside the room. Now, a vessel can't see every surface at the same time. Sometimes, they're focused on one wall. And at that time, they aren't aware of what's being done on the wall behind them. To see that, they have to turn and look. That investiture was always there, they just weren't actively aware of it until they looked. But as they do turn, they lose awareness of the wall they were previously staring at. Sometimes, a piece of investiture was on the bottom surface of the couch, or hidden away in some other nook, and to find it they have to go through a series of actions more complicated than simply turning to look.

Now, imagine every surface of the room is white, and each vessel is wearing glasses that have a colored filter, each vessel having one color from the visible spectrum uniquely, and you'll begin to approach something like the Cosmere.

Edited by TheFoxQR
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On 7/9/2019 at 5:28 PM, Nnatel said:

I feel like Nightblood can be similar to a black hole. It will 'eat' (sorry, I can't find a better word) any amount of Investiture just because it is so heavily Invested. (The black smoke is like the part of matter that gets out of the black hole - sorry for putting it so chaotic and simple at one but I'm not good at physics and don't know how to call it correctly). To me, it leads to an 'internal' perpendicularity - there is no way to use it as a typical one - but is a reason why it Nightblood destroys in all three Realms - in the sword they are one. 

This could be a thing. The leaking investiture could be akin to Hawking Radiation.

 

On 7/9/2019 at 5:28 PM, Nnatel said:

And, kind of using that we're on Nightblood, could someone tell me if it is possible that the presence of Ruin's Investiture was caused by the Command - 'destroy' is almost exactly the Intent of Ruin?

Personally, I don't think "destroy" is the exact intent of Ruin. Ruin is simply the forward passage of time, the coming of change, the "forced march" of entropy.

Now, it seems that in Awakening, the command is a cognitive concept. You need to conceive and hold the exact entirety of your command in your head while Awakening, as this is what will be imprinted on the Breadths as they leave you. There is probably an extra mental step involved to get the command to make sapient Type IV Entities. So while the spoken words begin the awakening process, the exact interpretation depends on what you had in your head. This is why longer commands are ineffective without the Cognitive enhancements that come from higher Heightenings, as a person really can't hold a very complicated command concept entirely in their heads at once.

If during Awakening, you think that the sword should destroy everything to the littlest of pieces, and then go further, the Breadths - when interpreting your command - might naturally pull in Ruin's investiture, as that is what that investiture specialises in.

Am I making any sense?

Edited by TheFoxQR
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I dunno about simple entropic grind towards chaos.  It is referred to as the shard of destruction quite a bit, not least of all by Sazed when he's holding it. Protection/Destruction is the intents he gives for Preservation and Ruin. 

I do think, however, that Ruin could also just be the closest intent to the command given.  I'm sure his status as a Type IV does play some part here, as the amount of investiture just with breaths alone was a huge amount. 

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22 hours ago, First Witness said:

I dunno about simple entropic grind towards chaos.  It is referred to as the shard of destruction quite a bit, not least of all by Sazed when he's holding it. Protection/Destruction is the intents he gives for Preservation and Ruin. 

I do think, however, that Ruin could also just be the closest intent to the command given.  I'm sure his status as a Type IV does play some part here, as the amount of investiture just with breaths alone was a huge amount. 

Remember, what a Shard is and how a vessel perceives it are two different things.

Preservation and Ruin have always been about entropy. Ruin's influence hastens entropy, Preservations influence slows it down. Extreme Preservation makes entropy infinitely slow - in effect stopping the passage of time, making everything stand still, preserving everything as it is. Extreme Ruin makes entropy infinitely fast - approaching near instantaneous breakdown of matter, energy and investiture to their most base states. This means Ruin is extremely suited to destruction, and Preservation to fortification/protection. A vessel could easily describe them like such if they wanted to, and they wouldn't be wrong.

In OB, Odium calls himself Passion, and while we may have WoB that he is wrong, that doesn't mean that Rayse in-world knows it. He genuinely thinks he should be called the Shard of Passion. If that is possible, then can't Sazed simplify the description of his Shards to someone who he knows will never need to know more?

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3 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

In OB, Odium calls himself Passion, and while we may have WoB that he is wrong, that doesn't mean that Rayse in-world knows it. He genuinely thinks he should be called the Shard of Passion. If that is possible, then can't Sazed simplify the description of his Shards to someone who he knows will never need to know more?

Even if Rayse in-world believes it, doesn't mean he's right, and doesn't mean that his Shard is actually Passion while he holds it, though. Nothing he manifests has been passionate. It's all been hate or void.

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22 minutes ago, RShara said:

Even if Rayse in-world believes it, doesn't mean he's right, and doesn't mean that his Shard is actually Passion while he holds it, though. Nothing he manifests has been passionate. It's all been hate or void.

That... was my point.

The other guy said Ruin is destruction, evidence being essentially "because Sazed said so." I'm pointing out that Rayse says he's Passion and believes it to be true, but WoB is that he's Odium. Ergo, Sazed saying Ruin is solely the power of destruction doesn't mean that it is true.

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5 minutes ago, TheFoxQR said:

That... was my point.

The other guy said Ruin is destruction, evidence being essentially "because Sazed said so." I'm pointing out that Rayse says he's Passion and believes it to be true, but WoB is that he's Odium. Ergo, Sazed saying Ruin is solely the power of destruction doesn't mean that it is true.

Sorry, I must have gotten confused. I thought you were saying that because Rayse believes he's Passion, he's managing to manifest that in his powers.

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5 minutes ago, RShara said:

Sorry, I must have gotten confused. I thought you were saying that because Rayse believes he's Passion, he's managing to manifest that in his powers.

No worries :)

I could have written that a bit better.

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