Spider-man Far From Home

[Toaster Retribution]

7 hours ago, Karger said:

A supremely bad one who is currently at the -1st ideal.

Nah, he is at least ideal four. His illusions are very good. Mysterio would kick Shallans chull, easily. 

[Karger]

9 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Nah, he is at least ideal four. His illusions are very good. Mysterio would kick Shallans chull, easily. 

That is not the reason he is at the -1 ideal. 

Spoiler

Think about it.  He actually tries to fool and fight spiderman even though spiderman has clearly demonstrated the ability to avoid getting hit with his illusions.  If at the end of the movie he had just run instead of trying to fight spiderman he could have gotten away with eidith easily.  He was so caught up in being Mysterio that he failed to take an obvious opportunity.  He also can't realy see why what he does is in anyway wrong or how it will eventually backfire.  He also would never swear the 1st ideal making him of the 0th ideal  He is also a *** indicating another subtraction and putting him at -1.  If Shallan hit him with the right kind of illusions giving Mysterio the chance to "outwit" her she could easily beat him.

 

[Pathfinder]

28 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Nah, he is at least ideal four. His illusions are very good. Mysterio would kick Shallans chull, easily. 

That actually was another reason I really liked Mysterio in the movie. Usually invisibility in movies has some form of distortion. In spider-man the illusions were so "perfect" you couldn't tell at all till it broke apart. I really liked how Marvel portrayed that. 

[Toaster Retribution]

24 minutes ago, Karger said:

That is not the reason he is at the -1 ideal. 

  Hide contents

Think about it.  He actually tries to fool and fight spiderman even though spiderman has clearly demonstrated the ability to avoid getting hit with his illusions.  If at the end of the movie he had just run instead of trying to fight spiderman he could have gotten away with eidith easily.  He was so caught up in being Mysterio that he failed to take an obvious opportunity.  He also can't realy see why what he does is in anyway wrong or how it will eventually backfire.  He also would never swear the 1st ideal making him of the 0th ideal  He is also a *** indicating another subtraction and putting him at -1.  If Shallan hit him with the right kind of illusions giving Mysterio the chance to "outwit" her she could easily beat him.

 

I can see the argument for Mysterio not swearing the first ideal. I can also see how he would though. The first ideal is more flexible than you would think. 

And Mysterio doesnt play fair. Shallan doesn’t either, but Beck is sooo much better at not playing fair. He used Peters trauma against him. He would just create illusions that showed Shallan all her traumas, which would completely break her down. Then he would just have to shoot her until she ran out of Stormlight. As long as he knows where she is, and her story, he could take her down easily. 

@Pathfinder, I agree with you :-) I think it worked really well. And the scene where he went crazy with the illusions was sooooooo good. 

Edited July 10, 2019 by Toaster Retribution

[Karger]

46 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

And Mysterio doesnt play fair. Shallan doesn’t either, but Beck is sooo much better at not playing fair. He used Peters trauma against him. He would just create illusions that showed Shallan all her traumas, which would completely break her down. Then he would just have to shoot her until she ran out of Stormlight. As long as he knows where she is, and her story, he could take her down easily. 

You forget that Mysterio is far more arrogant then Shallan.  Given equivalent information about his past I think that Shallan could outwit Mysterio faster then you think.  Additionally she has Pattern who can spot almost any illusion via things like lighting effects. 

[Toaster Retribution]

10 hours ago, Karger said:

You forget that Mysterio is far more arrogant then Shallan.  Given equivalent information about his past I think that Shallan could outwit Mysterio faster then you think.  Additionally she has Pattern who can spot almost any illusion via things like lighting effects. 

Yeah, Beck is arrogant, but I dont really think that it would be a problem for him when fighting Shallan. It wasn’t his arrogance that made him lose in FFH.

Pattern is an advantage though. I dont know if Shallan would be helped by knowing that the things she saw were illusions though. Seeing them would be enough.

[Karger]

5 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Pattern is an advantage though. I dont know if Shallan would be helped by knowing that the things she saw were illusions though. Seeing them would be enough.

Until she gets mad.  Then Mysterio is screwed.  On a different note if Mysterio had actually been willing to put in the work I think he would make an extraordinarily interesting hero.  He can't do much damage physically but his illusions could be a powerful asset fighting crime and or alien invasions.

[Pathfinder]

Hmmm, a fight between Shallan and Cinematic Mysterio. I think Shallan's persona issues would make the battle rather difficult for her assuming of course Mysterio knew any of it. Mysterio isn't psychic. He just preyed on the information he gathered about Peter. So I do not think Mysterio would have access to the information on Shallan to play off her problems, but if he did that would put things in his favor in my opinion. Now taking out individual personalities and looking purely at their "abilities" I think they each have their pros and cons

Shallan:

Pros

(Potentially) Shardplate and Blade

(Potentially) Solid illusions

Healing

Pattern (potentially) judging illusion from reality

Theoretical additional applications of lightweaving, i.e. lasers, sonic, etc. 

Cons

Depreciating Resource (stormlight)

Required focus as in Shallan had to have complete focus on her illusions to create the army that she did (at least from what we have seen, don't know if that could change with advancement in oaths)

Damaging illusions. We don't know whether or not regardless how solid her illusions could be come, how much damage they could potentially do. Could an illusion of a sword really cut for instance?

 

Mysterio

Pros

"unlimited resource" in that the drones do not require a visibly depreciating fuel that would result in a time limit on their use. 

AI to maintain and operate drones independent of Mysterio's focus. Potentially better at multi-tasking

Ability to (potentially) create and maintain far larger illusions for far longer periods of time

Illusions (drones) have greater confirmed active damaging capabilities, i.e. bullets, lasers, flame throwers, and concussive forces. 

Cons

Human. any normal hit will kill him. 

Drones can be destroyed and not rebuilt in time. Destroy enough drones, reduce combat efficacy.

No alternative means of determining illusion from reality (this is of course assuming Shallan's illusions would be tangible enough to fool sensors)

 

Anything I am forgetting?

Assuming their personal issues are not on the table for the fight (as how could they know each other's pasts?), then I could see their respective illusions duking it out while Shallan locates Mysterio. If she is successful in finding him, I think she could take the drones easily with shardplate and blade (though the bullets might reduce her plate rather quickly. This is conjecture as we only know how bullets act on dead plate, not radiant plate), get in close, and kill him either with a punch of a shardplate enhanced fist, or thrust of a shardblade. 

[Toaster Retribution]

@Karger I agree. I kinda hope Mysterio returns to be Marvels new big anti-hero, since Loki is dead. Using Jake Gyllenhaal for only one film seems like a waste, especially since he seems to like Quentin Beck. 

@Pathfinder If Shallan gets Radiant plate, the fight is hard to debate, since we dont know how those works. I still bet on Beck. I think he is more cunning, and (without the Plate) his drones should shoot Shallan enough that she runs out of Stormlight before she gets to him, especially considering that she needs to maintain illusions. Beck can also create an entire environment around her, whereas Shallan has, as far as I remember, not created illusions on that scale (except for the army, and that took everything she had).

[Wyndlerunner]

Oh, 17th Shard, the only website on the face of the internet where Shallan Davar could be pitted against Quentin Beck.

Here's my 2 cents, if you care for it: So far, from what we've seen, Shallan and Mysterio create very different types of illusions, Shallan is most well known for her illusions of people, where as Mysterio creates these very 'inception' landscapes. So, from my point of view, it's very difficult to quantify any sort of hypothetical fight/facedown between them. Comparing Apples to Oranges, if you catch my drift.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

@Karger I agree. I kinda hope Mysterio returns to be Marvels new big anti-hero, since Loki is dead. Using Jake Gyllenhaal for only one film seems like a waste, especially since he seems to like Quentin Beck. 

@Pathfinder If Shallan gets Radiant plate, the fight is hard to debate, since we dont know how those works. I still bet on Beck. I think he is more cunning, and (without the Plate) his drones should shoot Shallan enough that she runs out of Stormlight before she gets to him, especially considering that she needs to maintain illusions. Beck can also create an entire environment around her, whereas Shallan has, as far as I remember, not created illusions on that scale (except for the army, and that took everything she had).

That's the real question isn't it? What is the extent of Shallan's abilities if she was a fully realized fourth oath lightweaving knight radiant? At this moment we do not know, so I agree the deck is stacked a bit against her. There are implications of a lot of things (shardplate, lasers, sonic manipulation, tangible illusions) but nothing concrete yet. 

18 minutes ago, Wyndlerunner said:

Oh, 17th Shard, the only website on the face of the internet where Shallan Davar could be pitted against Quentin Beck.

Here's my 2 cents, if you care for it: So far, from what we've seen, Shallan and Mysterio create very different types of illusions, Shallan is most well known for her illusions of people, where as Mysterio creates these very 'inception' landscapes. So, from my point of view, it's very difficult to quantify any sort of hypothetical fight/facedown between them. Comparing Apples to Oranges, if you catch my drift.

Well we have seen Shallan make illusions of objects such as a wall, or boulder, as well as do layered illusions on people, but I agree we have not seen it anywhere near the scale of Mysterio. 

 

I will say this though. All of this makes me want to see a fully oathed lightweaver all the more!

[Toaster Retribution]

@Pathfinder I agree. Lightweavers have huge potential, and so does Shallan as a character (fingers crossed for a more complete arc in SA4). 

[Wander89]

I loved the movie. I do have Spider-Man bias because he was my first ever (super)hero but I'm hoping Tom Hollands new scenes in the movie start to show us more nerdy Peter rather than just funny remarks. 

As always, Gylenhaal played Mysterio well and that surprise cameo at the end was very welcoming. I hope they end up getting Kraven for Spider-Man 3 but I see this being a more large-scale Sinister Six set up with what they've been doing.

Happy was a giddy part, too. Marissa Tomei is just beautiful!

I still feel Zendaya is gonna get that red hair for the role by dying it though. And I hope that Sony can renegotiate because, I know it's a contract, having a Spider-Man in the MCU is great but if wishes to keep being the "friendly, neighbourhood Spider-Man" he's gonna need to stop with the team ups. I get that's part of the contract negotiation though and the team ups have been small scale.

[Karger]

On 7/11/2019 at 11:57 PM, Wander89 said:

I still feel Zendaya is gonna get that red hair for the role by dying it though.

She is not MJ as we know her and that is a good thing because if I have to watch her get rescued again.  Sigh.

[Wander89]

7 hours ago, Karger said:

She is not MJ as we know her and that is a good thing because if I have to watch her get rescued again.  Sigh.

I actually really like Zendaya as an actress and Far From Home really furthered her skills as this iteration of MJ but I agree that saving her gets old every movie.