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Fullborn vs. 10th heightening vs. herald


Chiberty

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I've seen a bunch of discussions on things like this, and people pretty much always have decided that the fullborn would win against people from other magic systems. I do agree that the power of a fullborn are ridiculously overpowered with compounding, but against a herald, the balance could change, as the heralds can be reborn. The reason that this wasn't used in their battles was that they had to stay on Braize to prevent the desolation, while in a fight like this, we could say that they would immediately decide to come back. With this distinction, the fullborn would not be able to kill the herald, while someone at the 10th heightening could create a nightblood2.0 that would be able to kill the herald (although it will feed on their breaths during the usage).

Since Nale is the only herald who currently has access to surgebinding, I'd say that he's the herald to put in this fight--of course assuming that he has legal permission. I'd also assume, that for the sake of the fight, the three contestants should be aware of each others abilities.

So, who would win: Fullborn(with access to all 16 metals and a coin pouch), Nale(who can be reborn and is a 5th Ideal Skybreaker, with access to a pouch or two of stormlight-infused spheres), or Awakener(who is at the 10th heightening and has assorting things with him to awaken)

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Plus the fullborn can cancel investiture. While I can't be sure its possible, it maybe be that the fullborn can mess with the investiture in the Herald, disrupting his ability to be reborn. And barring that, if we assume that our fullborn is familiar with all the metallic arts including hemalurgy, he can start spiking away. Depends on whether he knows of any bind points, but potentially still dangerous. 

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2 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

Plus the fullborn can cancel investiture. While I can't be sure its possible, it maybe be that the fullborn can mess with the investiture in the Herald, disrupting his ability to be reborn. And barring that, if we assume that our fullborn is familiar with all the metallic arts including hemalurgy, he can start spiking away. Depends on whether he knows of any bind points, but potentially still dangerous. 

 

5 hours ago, ChickenLiberty said:

So, who would win: Fullborn(with access to all 16 metals and a coin pouch), Nale(who can be reborn and is a 5th Ideal Skybreaker, with access to a pouch or two of stormlight-infused spheres), or Awakener(who is at the 10th heightening and has assorting things with him to awaken)

 

4 hours ago, ChickenLiberty said:

The fullborn cannot kill Nale, since he can just be reborn.

You don't need to kill someone to win a fight.  Just stake him to the ground, leach out his stormlight and start a research team on how to kill this guy.

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Actually Nale could probably do this - not because of his rebirth, but because he knows about using larkins to capture Investiture-users. Roshar is relatively high-Investiture, Scadrial is relatively low-Investiture. So a larkin would probably drain the Fullborn's metalminds near-instantly.

Before Honor's death, Nale could probably have won without any tricks like that; the Heralds back then were basically at "Mist-burning" level, drawing Investiture straight from Honor. I think a near-infinite-Stormlight Gravity lashing would make Speed and any of the other physical abilities essentially useless; there is a limit even to compounding, at least in the short term.

Awakening is very weak as a combat ability, at least "in real time". A Nightblood-type weapon with sufficient access to Investiture might work... if the wielder had the physical abilities to hit... which seems unlikely.

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4 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think a near-infinite-Stormlight Gravity lashing would make Speed and any of the other physical abilities essentially useless

could you please explain further?

4 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Before Honor's death, Nale could probably have won without any tricks like that; the Heralds back then were basically at "Mist-burning" level, drawing Investiture straight from Honor.

As seen in BoM, Fullborns can access Mist burning levels of power as well.

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3 hours ago, not an Evil Librarian said:

could you please explain further?

As seen in BoM, Fullborns can access Mist burning levels of power as well.

@cometaryorbit may be referring to my prior posts on other threads. We know prior to honor's death that the honorblades were fueled directly by honor, and they allowed the heralds to have access to levels of investiture no radiant could ever come close to. When Vin was fueled directly by preservation she was able to level Kredik Shaw with a steel push. So I put forth imagine any of the surges with that level of strength and size. I also put forward based on what we have seen, power activation from both mistborn/feruchemist as well as surgebinder requires the speed of thought activation. Assuming both parties are standing an average distance apart, a countdown sounds like mortal kombat, and then someone yells fight! the lord ruler would activate physical and mental speed immediately. At the very same time, if it were Nale for instance, he would activate (since he is touching the ground) a huge gravitational field that crushes anything to paste. Nale could instead or in additional to the gravitation field, use division through the entire area reducing the lord ruler to nothing. Except for steel pushing/iron pulling, none of the Lord ruler's abilities are ranged. In order for the lord ruler to then decide to use steel pushing or iron pulling (which wouldn't work on the honorblade because it does not need to be summoned to use its powers), regardless the increase of physical speed/mental speed, the herald's surges have already been activated and take up the entire field. Personally I think Battar would be better. She could transfer to the cognitive realm the minute the battle started, and then soulcast the metal minds to smoke (fabrial soulcasters can do this to metal minds as per WoB, nonetheless an honorfueled transformation surge). The lord ruler no longer has compounding and either dies of old age, or Batter can then soulcast his no longer invested self into smoke. 

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23 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

if it were Nale for instance, he would activate (since he is touching the ground) a huge gravitational field that crushes anything to paste

Except a fullborn could fill an ironmind to essentially get rid of almost all his/her weight. 

 

30 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Nale could instead or in additional to the gravitation field, use division through the entire area reducing the lord ruler to nothing.

Except a Fullborn like the lord ruler has been compounding for a thousand years. as seen in BoM, a fullborn's metalminds have the power equivalent to mist-burning. I doubt that the surge of division even fueled directly by a shard would be enough to reduce a Fullborn to nothing. Even if it did have an effect, compounded health could take care of any damage. 

37 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

She could transfer to the cognitive realm the minute the battle started, and then soulcast the metal minds to smoke (fabrial soulcasters can do this to metal minds as per WoB, nonetheless an honorfueled transformation surge).

I don't think that we really know enough to say that soulcasting even directly fueled by honor would be enough to soulcast something like the bands of mourning. 

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45 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

 may be referring to my prior posts on other threads. We know prior to honor's death that the honorblades were fueled directly by honor, and they allowed the heralds to have access to levels of investiture no radiant could ever come close to. When Vin was fueled directly by preservation she was able to level Kredik Shaw with a steel push. So I put forth imagine any of the surges with that level of strength and size. I also put forward based on what we have seen, power activation from both mistborn/feruchemist as well as surgebinder requires the speed of thought activation. Assuming both parties are standing an average distance apart, a countdown sounds like mortal kombat, and then someone yells fight! the lord ruler would activate physical and mental speed immediately. At the very same time, if it were Nale for instance, he would activate (since he is touching the ground) a huge gravitational field that crushes anything to paste. Nale could instead or in additional to the gravitation field, use division through the entire area reducing the lord ruler to nothing. Except for steel pushing/iron pulling, none of the Lord ruler's abilities are ranged. In order for the lord ruler to then decide to use steel pushing or iron pulling (which wouldn't work on the honorblade because it does not need to be summoned to use its powers), regardless the increase of physical speed/mental speed, the herald's surges have already been activated and take up the entire field. Personally I think Battar would be better. She could transfer to the cognitive realm the minute the battle started, and then soulcast the metal minds to smoke (fabrial soulcasters can do this to metal minds as per WoB, nonetheless an honorfueled transformation surge). The lord ruler no longer has compounding and either dies of old age, or Batter can then soulcast his no longer invested self into smoke. 

 

5 minutes ago, not an Evil Librarian said:

Except a fullborn could fill an ironmind to essentially get rid of almost all his/her weight. 

Or just increase their strength to the point where the gravity field could not hurt them too much. 

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While this might be fun to theorize about, I’m glad we don’t see these kinds of things often in the stories, and when we do they’re generally not main characters.  

There’s a reason that Superman is far less popular than Batman.  OP characters are boring.  

I’d much rather read/watch a Twinborn or a Radiant, or someone of the Third Heightening, or a Forger than I would Fullborn, or a Herald, or the Godking, or an Elantrian (after Raoden fixes the symbol).  It’s more interesting to see them struggle, claw, and connive their way to victory than it is to see someone who is simply too powerful swat their enemies like flies.

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1 hour ago, Chromium Compounder said:

I’d much rather read/watch a Twinborn or a Radiant, or someone of the Third Heightening, or a Forger than I would Fullborn, or a Herald, or the Godking, or an Elantrian (after Raoden fixes the symbol).  It’s more interesting to see them struggle, claw, and connive their way to victory than it is to see someone who is simply too powerful swat their enemies like flies.

Sanderson's second law.  The more limitations on a character or magic system the more interesting they are(paraphrased).

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1 hour ago, Chromium Compounder said:

There’s a reason that Superman is far less popular than Batman.  OP characters are boring. 

You take that back :(

I've always liked the OP characters, but you are certainly correct that they are less popular. It's probably the reason I like Elantrians so much.

BTW, Raoden would wreck them both. At the same time.

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31 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

You take that back :(

I've always liked the OP characters, but you are certainly correct that they are less popular. It's probably the reason I like Elantrians so much.

BTW, Raoden would wreck them both. At the same time.

How exactly?

Also don't you get annoyed with them some times?  No matter how many people are shooting at batman its hard to feel stakes when you know that every bullet is going to miss and unless there is kryptonite around superman is fine(magic works too but seriously).

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5 hours ago, not an Evil Librarian said:

Except a fullborn could fill an ironmind to essentially get rid of almost all his/her weight. 

There is a limit to how much you could fill based on how many metal minds you have. Compounding works by you storing an attribute to change the nature of the metal. then when you burn it, you get more out of that attribute. So storing itself is not the compounding.

5 hours ago, not an Evil Librarian said:

Except a Fullborn like the lord ruler has been compounding for a thousand years. as seen in BoM, a fullborn's metalminds have the power equivalent to mist-burning. I doubt that the surge of division even fueled directly by a shard would be enough to reduce a Fullborn to nothing. Even if it did have an effect, compounded health could take care of any damage. 

The metalminds do not. I will elaborate further below but first I will reply to your subsequent point. That is great that the lord ruler can heal. Just a shame that division would destroy the metal minds preventing further compounding. Lord Ruler dies

5 hours ago, not an Evil Librarian said:

I don't think that we really know enough to say that soulcasting even directly fueled by honor would be enough to soulcast something like the bands of mourning. 

What the lord ruler has is not the bands of mourning first of all. That is a separate creation. The lord ruler's bracers themselves are just used to enable the lord ruler to compound which is where the increase in investiture is coming from. We also have WoB that soucasters (the fabrial) are used to pushing through investiture, and would be able to soulcast metal minds. If a fabrial soulcaster can push through a similar level of investiture in order to soulcast a metal mind, then to me Battar being fueled directly by honor I would imagine could push through a similar level of investiture in the lord ruler's bracers.

4 hours ago, Karger said:

Or just increase their strength to the point where the gravity field could not hurt them too much. 

As answered above, the metalminds still get destroyed, and there goes his compounding. 

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42 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

As answered above, the metalminds still get destroyed, and there goes his compounding. 

The lord ruler's metalminds likely have a greater amount of investiture then say Wax's.  This may or may not make a difference.  I am also not sure that a division surge would destroy metalminds or that it can be used at range like soulcasting can.  I also am not sure that soulcasting is instantaneous perhaps with compounded speed of thought and speed you might be able to decapitate the Herald before he or she can complete the process. 

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3 hours ago, Karger said:

No matter how many people are shooting at batman its hard to feel stakes when you know that every bullet is going to miss

Batman's superpower is plot armor.

 

3 hours ago, Karger said:

unless there is kryptonite around superman is fine(magic works too but seriously).

Superman's biggest enemy is usually his own reluctance to step into his role as a leader. His battles are usually more emotional or philosophical. The actual fighting is just there to satisfy our desire for action. It's actually a bit like Brandon's books in that way.

 

3 hours ago, Karger said:

How exactly?

The simplest way would probably be to break their connection to the Shards that give them their powers. We have seen that Elantrians are capable of Shard level manipulation from the device that the Ire made to steal Preservation.

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1 hour ago, Karger said:

The lord ruler's metalminds likely have a greater amount of investiture then say Wax's.  This may or may not make a difference.  I am also not sure that a division surge would destroy metalminds or that it can be used at range like soulcasting can.  I also am not sure that soulcasting is instantaneous perhaps with compounded speed of thought and speed you might be able to decapitate the Herald before he or she can complete the process. 

Will pull up the WoB, but just because something is full of investiture does not make it physically more durable. So for instance an invested metal mind blocks a shardblade from phasing through it, but a sword coming down on a thin band of metal is going to dent or cut it. Metal minds can be melted down and reforged even when they have attributed stored in them. It screws with accessing the investiture, but that doesn't prevent it from harm. 

Now as to division, that causes some questions. First, I consider what Amaram did was division. That was at range. Second, does division transform the object, or burn the object? Amaram's use (assuming it is division) seems to burn. If that is the case them the metal minds would get destroyed. As to soulcasting, as I said, first Battar would use transportation to go to the cognitive realm. Then she could take all the time she wanted to transform the metal minds from the cognitive realm. 

 

(WoB about how invested the lord ruler's metal minds are)

Trae Cooper (paraphrased)

Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question.

1.) The ability to Push/Pull an Invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the Investiture.

2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul.

This further explains why Vin required more than normal power to Push/Pull the metalminds from the Lord Ruler, because of their proximity to his soul, via the Spiritual Realm.

3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades.

Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate.

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16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate.

That's pretty extreme. When Rashek held the power he reshaped the genetic makeup of an entire planet, changed its geography and changed its location relative to it's Sun. If that is the level of power needed to move Shardblades then they must be the most powerful non-Shard entities that we have seen on screen yet. It's weird that they are so weak, comparatively, in all other regards.

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8 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

That's pretty extreme. When Rashek held the power he reshaped the genetic makeup of an entire planet, changed its geography and changed its location relative to it's Sun. If that is the level of power needed to move Shardblades then they must be the most powerful non-Shard entities that we have seen on screen yet. It's weird that they are so weak, comparatively, in all other regards.

This might clarify a bit:

 

Questioner

So I have heard that it is harder to Push a Shardblade with Allomancy than it is a normal sword.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Is that true of both living and dead Shardblades?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Equally?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, no.

Questioner

Okay, so it's even more difficult to Push one alive.

Brandon Sanderson

The thing-- An Invested object is more difficult with any of the magics. So, for instance, even a Feruchemical metalmind is going to be harder. Depends on how much it is Invested, and things like that. But, y'know, it can range from you barely notice it or don't even notice it to "Wow, that's hard to Push on". Same for a Hemalurgical spike, depending on how much Investiture is left over, how long has it been outside of a body, and things like that. Same thing Pushing on something inside a person's body, their Investiture is going to interfere with it.

Same thing, when you read White Sand, why a person slapping their hand through someone's stream of sand can throw off the entire creation of the sand mastery. It's just-- There's interference patterns, and things like that.

Questioner

And is that true of a Drab as well? Does the body affect--

Brandon Sanderson

The Drab is going to have less.

Questioner

So they just have less Investiture, but they still have some natural Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

They do still have some. They've lost their Breath but that isn't the entirety of the Investiture inside of them.

Almost all of the times we see Vin--in fact I think every time--we see Vin, or someone in the Mistborn books, Pushing or Pulling on an Invested metal they are either drawing on the mist or they're Elend or the Lord Ruler who have the enhanced power, or something like that. Or it's a duralumin Push, or its one of the Inquisitors who's had a spike-- y'know, and things like that, that've-- And so it's not something that you see done very often in the Mistborn books.

Rubix

I can actually confirm that's correct.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh you guys looked it up?

Rubix

I checked.

Brandon Sanderson

I mean it can be done. And depending on Investiture it can be not even that hard to do but--

Firefight release party (Jan. 5, 2015)
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19 hours ago, not an Evil Librarian said:

could you please explain further?

A Gravity Lashing fueled with ridiculous amounts of stormlight, as a pre-Splintering Herald with Honorblade would have access to, is going to immobilize even someone compounding both Speed and Strength.

20 hours ago, not an Evil Librarian said:

 

As seen in BoM, Fullborns can access Mist burning levels of power as well.

 

I don't think it's quite the same. It's a hugely impressive level of power, granted, enough to replicate some of TLR's tricks with Pushing and such, even enough to start producing mist "leakage", but it's still limited to what will fit in a metalmind. Someone with an "open connection to a Shard" like Vin Mist-burning, or a pre-Splintering Herald with Honorblade, is going to have access to way more power than the amount of metal you can fit in your stomach/attribute you can store in a metalmind represents.

Compounding is fueling Feruchemy with Allomancy, it's end-positive, but still limited by metals. Feruchemical metalminds can be tapped really fast (very high rate of attribute use) but they're limited in how much they can store by the physical size/mass of the metalmind. Similarly, Allomancy is limited by the amount of metal - even extreme allomantic strength (Elend post-lerasium) or Duralumin doesn't get you more power per gram of metal, just burns it faster.

10 hours ago, Karger said:

The lord ruler's metalminds likely have a greater amount of investiture then say Wax's.  This may or may not make a difference.  I am also not sure that a division surge would destroy metalminds

They aren't large enough to hold that much investiture; Well of Ascension specifically points out they're actually quite small (when Vin is lamenting the lack of Atium).

Smaller metalminds are quite Pushable (Marsh vs Sazed in Well of Ascension, Wax does it sometimes & specifcially comments on how some - less full - are more practical to Push IIRC) even without the sort of power boost that lets you push on metal inside the body.

So while Investiture interference is indeed a thing, I don't think it's going to do much good against the raw power Surgebinding provides, even without throwing in Heralds. (Pushing a jewelry-size metalmind is easier than Pushing on metal inside a body, so if the Surgebinder can use Division or Soulcasting on a regular non-magic-using person, it should work on a metalmind.)


Depending on how much/what they are actually burning/tapping at the moment, a strong enough Elsecaller might be able to Soulcast the Fullborn directly. I think Investiture interference would stop this if they were actively Compounding, certainly if tapping at high rates, but as a surprise attack it might actually be fatal even to someone with unlimited Gold healing.

Surgebinding used to full extent is really scary powerful, there's a reason people worry about it destroying the world...

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4 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

A Gravity Lashing fueled with ridiculous amounts of stormlight, as a pre-Splintering Herald with Honorblade would have access to, is going to immobilize even someone compounding both Speed and Strength.

You know this how?  Remember compounding strength can get you to be like a hundred times as strong as you are normally.  Are you saying that the Heralds could do 400 lashings around a large area(4 times gravity is about what you need to prevent a person from moving)?  Cause if so I have serious questions about why the Heralds need help during the desolations.

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7 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Similarly, Allomancy is limited by the amount of metal - even extreme allomantic strength (Elend post-lerasium) or Duralumin doesn't get you more power per gram of metal, just burns it faster.

The bolded part is not accurate. An Allomancer’s Investiture level increases their efficiency with metals. Elend would get more power and a longer burn than Vin from the same amount of metal. When combined with Nicrosil Feruchemy, the power ceiling for Allomancy is extremely high (this is probably true for every magic system, but the thread is about Fullborn v. Herald).

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