Truthwatcher_17.5

Belonging to multiple orders

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Wax's

Spoiler

Steel bubble

was originally stated to be an example of Savantism, but Brandon backtracked on that because he said Savantism is specifically supposed to have a downside.  I could be entirely wrong I thought it was now just being called learn-able skill.  

 

I have a guess on Wayne's: 

Spoiler

Via Gold he is constantly flooding his Spiritweb to restore it to it's Ideal, while his Bendalloy lets him slow down and separate himself from the objective Timeframe.  I predict that his Resonance will allow him to Change his personal Timescale without affecting external things in a bubble. 

But that is a bit more of a literal combination of the two abilities, and the two actual Resonance examples we have (Lightweaver's memory and Windrunner's Squires) are a good deal more abstract than that, so Im probably way off base.  

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1 hour ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Jasnah's resonance has not been confirmed (I don't even remember a discussion about it).  

Wayne's resonance has not been revealed either (his acting is confirmed to not be magical).  Wax's resonance is 

  Reveal hidden contents

his steel bubble.  

 

In my opinion, none of the resonances are match up particularly well with the input powers, so it makes it impossible to guess.  If you squint, sometimes you can make a connection (e.g. Kaladin "attracting" people and "binding" them to him -> lots of squires), but only in hindsight.  No clue how light + transformation yields cool memory powers.  

There are two WoB where people ask Brandon about Jasnah's resonance. One of them mentions her "geolocating" ability. Brandon did not confirm or deny. I thought it had been confirmed since then, but looks like the jury is still out for now lol.

 

45 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Wax's

  Reveal hidden contents

Steel bubble

was originally stated to be an example of Savantism, but Brandon backtracked on that because he said Savantism is specifically supposed to have a downside.  I could be entirely wrong I thought it was now just being called learn-able skill.  

 

I have a guess on Wayne's: 

  Reveal hidden contents

Via Gold he is constantly flooding his Spiritweb to restore it to it's Ideal, while his Bendalloy lets him slow down and separate himself from the objective Timeframe.  I predict that his Resonance will allow him to Change his personal Timescale without affecting external things in a bubble. 

But that is a bit more of a literal combination of the two abilities, and the two actual Resonance examples we have (Lightweaver's memory and Windrunner's Squires) are a good deal more abstract than that, so Im probably way off base.  

Lol makes me want to know what they are even more. There are seriously like 4 things I can't wait to see but unfortunately will have to wait a long time for

1. Jasnah's backstory (Jasnah's book)

2. Renarin's backstory (Renarin's book)

3. Fully oathed radiants, what they can do, and their resonances (no idea when)

4. what the heralds could do prior to Honor's death (Taln's or Shallash's book)

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Posted (edited)

I mean Shallan's memory is specifically photographic. Seems pretty clear how Illumination pairs with that to me

Edited by Kon-Tiki
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With regards to the "three surges with one overlapping" idea, I would also like to add that it doesn't seem too unreasonable to say that the shared surge would also be much more Stormlight-efficient, especially so at higher Ideals (or Truths). Since you have two bonds growing deeper with two Spren that both grant the "same power" (the same surge), you could use both bonds to 'conduct' (not sure if that's a good term) the Stormlight to the desired effect of the Surge. For instance, say... A... DustBreaker (so edgy) would have two spren both granting Division. I feel like they could become very powerful with that Surge in less time if they were able to swear Oaths to both orders at roughly the same time (or one after another with a fairly short interval, or what have you).

Another big thing with double-bonding Spren: Two (living) Shardblades! That means a Radiant like that could (maybe) do something like a Bow and Arrow, with one Spren being the Bow, and one being the Arrow that is launched (since 1 Spren can't split into multiple pieces to be a bow and arrow at the same time). And of course, the obvious badassery of dual-wielding full-sized Blades.

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I'm less sure about the stormlight efficiency benefits, it really depends on how efficient knights radiant are with a single bond. If their efficiency is 80% their really isn't much room for improvement. Since efficiency increases with higher levels of bonds i'd expect the efficiency benefits of having two bonds to be significant at the early oaths but small for full radiants.

On the subject of resonances do we know if they are limited to interactions between two powers, or whether more than 2 powers can interact. If that is the case with an overlapping surge we could at maximum see 4 resonances.

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On 7/12/2019 at 10:11 PM, Kon-Tiki said:

I mean Shallan's memory is specifically photographic. Seems pretty clear how Illumination pairs with that to me

The point I was making at least is ok illumination coupled with transformation lets you take photographic memories. Then taking that example, what would be the resonance for illumination and regrowth? Creating new memories? Putting memories in other people? What about illusion and transformation would cause someone to say "hey that must be photographic memories then!" excluding anything else before it was revealed? In hindsight it makes sense, but I have no idea how based on that information we could possibly theorize on what the others are before they are ultimately revealed/confirmed. What would transformation and transportation be? Some theorize geolocation, but that is based on one instance at the end of Words of Radiance because Jasnah knows where the nearest town is. If that is correct, then in hindsight it makes sense, because an Elsecaller would need to know where they want to go, but if not for that scene, what other information could help us narrow it down? Same thing for cohesion and transportation, cohesion and tension, gravitation and division, division and abrasion, abrasion and progression. I think there is a theory that Lift's resonance is being able to understand anyone (as in where they are coming from and identify with them, like what she did with Nale). If that is true, how do we get that from abrasion and progression? People metaphorically rub off on you (abrasion), and you grow your understanding of them (progression)? 

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5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The point I was making at least is ok illumination coupled with transformation lets you take photographic memories. Then taking that example, what would be the resonance for illumination and regrowth? Creating new memories? Putting memories in other people? What about illusion and transformation would cause someone to say "hey that must be photographic memories then!" excluding anything else before it was revealed? In hindsight it makes sense, but I have no idea how based on that information we could possibly theorize on what the others are before they are ultimately revealed/confirmed. What would transformation and transportation be? Some theorize geolocation, but that is based on one instance at the end of Words of Radiance because Jasnah knows where the nearest town is. If that is correct, then in hindsight it makes sense, because an Elsecaller would need to know where they want to go, but if not for that scene, what other information could help us narrow it down? Same thing for cohesion and transportation, cohesion and tension, gravitation and division, division and abrasion, abrasion and progression. I think there is a theory that Lift's resonance is being able to understand anyone (as in where they are coming from and identify with them, like what she did with Nale). If that is true, how do we get that from abrasion and progression? People metaphorically rub off on you (abrasion), and you grow your understanding of them (progression)? 

Shallan's photographic memory isnt the normal tropey sort, it has some specific quirks.  She takes a Mental Snapshot, and can remember it in detail until she draws it, after which she no longer has it in her memory.  I think the resonance at play here is that as a Lightweaver she is able to actually Create a new Cognitive Aspect of her future piece of Art, using her Lightweaving senses along with Soulcasting mechanisms. Then she comes back and uses her art to create a Physical aspect to anchor that Cognitive aspect, after which she looses most (but apparently not all) of her cognitive connection to it.  I see this as a similar (if inanimate) version of how the Spren can Exist in the Cognitive Realm, but need something extra (a Radiant, a similar emotion or physical manifestation, etc) to pull them fully into the Physical Realm.  

Extending that (almost entirely unfounded) theory to a similar situation with Illumination and Regrowth, I think it could grant Psychometry (ie Object Reading), and possibly let the radiant restore that object past the normal time-limit.  The biggest difference is that Soulcasting Defines a New Cognitive Self of a given target, whereas Regrowth Restores it's current True Self.  So if Illumination+Soulcasting lets you define a wholly new Cognitive Aspect and then give it Form, Illumination+Regrowth look back and more directly perceive the true History of an object and restore it to that older "lost" Self.  

Just spitballing though, I have nothing specific to point to for support on any of that, and Renarin is a terrible case study anyway.  

On 7/13/2019 at 8:41 PM, Rossamund said:

I'm less sure about the stormlight efficiency benefits, it really depends on how efficient knights radiant are with a single bond. If their efficiency is 80% their really isn't much room for improvement. Since efficiency increases with higher levels of bonds i'd expect the efficiency benefits of having two bonds to be significant at the early oaths but small for full radiants.

On the subject of resonances do we know if they are limited to interactions between two powers, or whether more than 2 powers can interact. If that is the case with an overlapping surge we could at maximum see 4 resonances.


Im not convinced there is that sort of absolute "Max" efficiency when you are talking about actual multiple Bonds.  Per WOB, as you progress in the Oaths you get more efficient as "Consuming Stormlight" but "never as efficient as the Voidbringers, since humans leak too much."  But two separate Bonds should still double (or at least increase) the overall bandwidth, regardless of the efficiency of the individual Bonds.  Especially given how the Bonds are described as actually blending the two/three entities Spirtweb's together.  I think it's a lot like Allomancy, which is throttled by a similar Bond to Preservation:  A Spike of the same ability as your natural will always make you stronger at that power, regardless of your relative strength without it.  I guess we'll have to keep a close eye on Nale, having both a Spren and the corresponding Honorblade is likely the closest we'll get to a dual Bond any time soon.  Unless we see a Windrunner dual-wielding with the Honorblade.  

On that note, anyone know if Jezrien's Honorblade still works?

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1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Shallan's photographic memory isnt the normal tropey sort, it has some specific quirks.  She takes a Mental Snapshot, and can remember it in detail until she draws it, after which she no longer has it in her memory.  I think the resonance at play here is that as a Lightweaver she is able to actually Create a new Cognitive Aspect of her future piece of Art, using her Lightweaving senses along with Soulcasting mechanisms. Then she comes back and uses her art to create a Physical aspect to anchor that Cognitive aspect, after which she looses most (but apparently not all) of her cognitive connection to it.  I see this as a similar (if inanimate) version of how the Spren can Exist in the Cognitive Realm, but need something extra (a Radiant, a similar emotion or physical manifestation, etc) to pull them fully into the Physical Realm.  

Extending that (almost entirely unfounded) theory to a similar situation with Illumination and Regrowth, I think it could grant Psychometry (ie Object Reading), and possibly let the radiant restore that object past the normal time-limit.  The biggest difference is that Soulcasting Defines a New Cognitive Self of a given target, whereas Regrowth Restores it's current True Self.  So if Illumination+Soulcasting lets you define a wholly new Cognitive Aspect and then give it Form, Illumination+Regrowth look back and more directly perceive the true History of an object and restore it to that older "lost" Self.  

Just spitballing though, I have nothing specific to point to for support on any of that, and Renarin is a terrible case study anyway.

Personally I disagree, but more that it just doesn't feel right for myself rather than anything I could truly put forward to dispute your statements. I wish you luck with your theory!

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Im not convinced there is that sort of absolute "Max" efficiency when you are talking about actual multiple Bonds.  Per WOB, as you progress in the Oaths you get more efficient as "Consuming Stormlight" but "never as efficient as the Voidbringers, since humans leak too much."  But two separate Bonds should still double (or at least increase) the overall bandwidth, regardless of the efficiency of the individual Bonds.  Especially given how the Bonds are described as actually blending the two/three entities Spirtweb's together.  I think it's a lot like Allomancy, which is throttled by a similar Bond to Preservation:  A Spike of the same ability as your natural will always make you stronger at that power, regardless of your relative strength without it.  I guess we'll have to keep a close eye on Nale, having both a Spren and the corresponding Honorblade is likely the closest we'll get to a dual Bond any time soon.  Unless we see a Windrunner dual-wielding with the Honorblade.  

On that note, anyone know if Jezrien's Honorblade still works?

Well we do know a radiant wielding an honorblade of the same order would get a small degree of compounding, but it wouldn't be anything big. WoB, supports that. The person asked regarding Kaladin having the windrunner honorblade. 

As to Jezerin's honorblade, Moash uses it to float up in the air at the end when it is given to him, and that is after he killed Jezereh, so I believe yes it still works.

AS to the rest, no idea lol. 

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1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

As to Jezerin's honorblade, Moash uses it to float up in the air at the end when it is given to him, and that is after he killed Jezereh, so I believe yes it still works

Yep. I'm pretty sure the Honorblades (as the name implies) are splinters of Honor's investiture directly, and act "sort of" like a spren in that you bond to them for the Surges. I don't think there's anything about them that would need their originally corresponding Herald to still be alive or whatever for the Surges to still work.

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On 7/15/2019 at 1:59 PM, Pathfinder said:

Personally I disagree, but more that it just doesn't feel right for myself rather than anything I could truly put forward to dispute your statements. I wish you luck with your theory!

Honestly this is a very new theory so I havent really explored it yet.  Could you tell me what doesnt feel right to you? It the perspective would help.  

On 7/15/2019 at 1:59 PM, Pathfinder said:

Well we do know a radiant wielding an honorblade of the same order would get a small degree of compounding, but it wouldn't be anything big. WoB, supports that. The person asked regarding Kaladin having the windrunner honorblade. 

Do you happen to have a link to that WOB?  I couldnt find it and Im curious to see the wording.  It doesnt surprise me though, the Honorblades are supposed to band far less deep and thus be far less efficient.  

On 7/15/2019 at 1:59 PM, Pathfinder said:

As to Jezerin's honorblade, Moash uses it to float up in the air at the end when it is given to him, and that is after he killed Jezereh, so I believe yes it still works.

AS to the rest, no idea lol. 

Oh, cool.  I honestly couldnt remember if we'd seen it on-stage after Jezrien was killed.  

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

Honestly this is a very new theory so I havent really explored it yet.  Could you tell me what doesnt feel right to you? It the perspective would help.  

Well most of it is that it just doesn't feel right, which is why I didn't say anything further because I didn't have anything to back up the feeling. Just something in my gut says no. Since my gut obviously is not any evidence lol, I didn't see fit to elaborate. Otherwise I guess I don't see her creating art based off of a snapshot in her mind as creating a new cognitive aspect. I could see that if she creates the entire piece in her mind when she takes the snap shot, but the art piece need not be identical in every way to what she "captured". So for instance, I believe it was with Taravangian, she took a "capture" of him, and changed the background. Then there are the moments where she alters the appearance of the capture to portray them in a nobler light. So are you saying the act of drawing it into the physical is her altering it to how she wants it to be from what the "ideal" or "original" was? If so, then how is it anchoring the cognitive if the physical now differs from the cognitive she formed? Unless from re-reading your post, you are saying she when she captures the image, she alters it at the time of capturing to what it will be. But we see her in quite a few situations capturing a person, and then later on drawing them, remarking to herself how she is bringing out this, or changing that while drawing. Basically this is a whole lot of nitpicks based on next to no information, to try and explain that it just doesn't feel right to me lol. So I got nothing to say "i think this doesn't work because of X". 

Why would regrowth, which is called progression/going forward, be about regression/looking back?

 

Quote

Do you happen to have a link to that WOB?  I couldnt find it and Im curious to see the wording.  It doesnt surprise me though, the Honorblades are supposed to band far less deep and thus be far less efficient.  

Sure, no problem :)

 

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a non-Windrunner picked up Jezrien's Honorblade would they gain Windrunner powers as well?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a Windrunner picked up that blade, would their abilities be enhanced?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There would be some compounding but strength is not as much an issue with Surgebinding as is the strength of the spren bond and how much Stormlight you are using.

Words of Radiance Houston signing (March 11, 2014)

Quote

Oh, cool.  I honestly couldnt remember if we'd seen it on-stage after Jezrien was killed.  

No problemo.

Oathbringer page 1222

Join us in the sky. The Honorblades, Graces had told him, gave their powers to any who held them. Hesitant, Moash took the sphere that Khen offered "What was that she said? Wyre?" She had said it in a way that rhymed with fire.

"It's one of their names" Khen said "I've been told it means He Who Quiets"

Vyre, He Who Quiets, sucked in the light of the sphere. It was sweet and beautiful, and - as he'd been promised - brought Passion with it. he held to it, then Lashed himself upward into the sky

Edited by Pathfinder
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Awesome, thanks for the quotes.

 

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Well most of it is that it just doesn't feel right, which is why I didn't say anything further because I didn't have anything to back up the feeling. Just something in my gut says no. Since my gut obviously is not any evidence lol, I didn't see fit to elaborate. Otherwise I guess I don't see her creating art based off of a snapshot in her mind as creating a new cognitive aspect. I could see that if she creates the entire piece in her mind when she takes the snap shot, but the art piece need not be identical in every way to what she "captured". So for instance, I believe it was with Taravangian, she took a "capture" of him, and changed the background. Then there are the moments where she alters the appearance of the capture to portray them in a nobler light. So are you saying the act of drawing it into the physical is her altering it to how she wants it to be from what the "ideal" or "original" was? If so, then how is it anchoring the cognitive if the physical now differs from the cognitive she formed? Unless from re-reading your post, you are saying she when she captures the image, she alters it at the time of capturing to what it will be. But we see her in quite a few situations capturing a person, and then later on drawing them, remarking to herself how she is bringing out this, or changing that while drawing. Basically this is a whole lot of nitpicks based on next to no information, to try and explain that it just doesn't feel right to me lol. So I got nothing to say "i think this doesn't work because of X". 

Excellent!  I need the discussion to be able to get these things out properly, thanks.  I think there are two different things going on there (both are arguably part of the Lightweaver resonance), but Im probably going to struggle to articulate it properly. What follows is pure theory:  

In the general case, A lightweaver's memory ability is an ability to create Art by Creating a Cognitive Aspect of the intended Art (usually a witnessed scene for Shallan) in the Cognitive Realm first, then they simply fill in the Physical aspect with the more mundane process of turning Paper (or a block of wood in Tien's case) into said peice of Art.  So they take a Snapshot, which in the Cognitive Realm remains an internalized part of the themselves. Then they go out and find physical raw materials to anchor it to, at which point it would have it's own Bead in the cognitive realm and be a Drawing, rather than paper.  This is why it is typically so photo-realistic.  The Snapshot process is a realmic one though, which is why there are sometimes details that the Lightweaver wasn't consciously aware of (Cryptic stalkers, warping by an UnMade, etc).  Based purely on their Name, I suspect that the normal Truthwatchers gets a more conscious version of that realmic perception from their version of Lightweaving. 

But we know from the in-world studies of Spren that Perception of a Thing can have implications on that Thing in a quantum sense, the way measuring those Firespren locked them to that measurement, etc.  I think a Lightweaver can use this process to not just record something in the Cognitive Aspect of an Art, but use that Art to re-define the original (ie Soulcasting).  So when we've seen her consciously Change a Snapshot picture of a person, she is making subtle alterations to that Cognitive Aspect record; and when the subject sees the picture and likes what they see, those changes get internalized; it literally and realmically Changes their Self Image. At that point it's basically Soulcasting being utilized in such a subtle and complex way that it's approaching Forgery, rather than the more primitive and/or brute-force Essences method.  I think it is also related to how Shallan is fracturing her own Cognitive Aspect into multiple personalities, and I think it's telling that to do so she's always had to Draw her new Self first.  

 

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Why would regrowth, which is called progression/going forward, be about regression/looking back?

Progression grants two powers that, at least over in the Metallic Arts, are separate things.  Growth is about moving forward, it's basically accelerated Aging (ie Feruchemical Atium), while ReGrowth is about restoration of what was (ie Feruchemcial Gold) before it has settled into a given Change that has redefined it and becomes the new Truth of a thing.  So under theory that Lightweaving is granting Lightweavers a certain amount of Realmic Perception (supported by the Truthwatcher moniker if nothing else), the idea is that when it's combined with Soulcasting it grants an increased subtly in Changing somebody, but when combined with Regrowth it grants an increased ability to restore the thing by being able to see deeper into their past.   

Though I should say that Regrowth has so far been pretty specific to Living things, so calling it "Object" reading is likely inacurrate

 

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1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Awesome, thanks for the quotes.

No problem. 

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Excellent!  I need the discussion to be able to get these things out properly, thanks.  I think there are two different things going on there (both are arguably part of the Lightweaver resonance), but Im probably going to struggle to articulate it properly. What follows is pure theory:  

In the general case, A lightweaver's memory ability is an ability to create Art by Creating a Cognitive Aspect of the intended Art (usually a witnessed scene for Shallan) in the Cognitive Realm first, then they simply fill in the Physical aspect with the more mundane process of turning Paper (or a block of wood in Tien's case) into said peice of Art.  So they take a Snapshot, which in the Cognitive Realm remains an internalized part of the themselves. Then they go out and find physical raw materials to anchor it to, at which point it would have it's own Bead in the cognitive realm and be a Drawing, rather than paper.  This is why it is typically so photo-realistic.  The Snapshot process is a realmic one though, which is why there are sometimes details that the Lightweaver wasn't consciously aware of (Cryptic stalkers, warping by an UnMade, etc).  Based purely on their Name, I suspect that the normal Truthwatchers gets a more conscious version of that realmic perception from their version of Lightweaving. 

But we know from the in-world studies of Spren that Perception of a Thing can have implications on that Thing in a quantum sense, the way measuring those Firespren locked them to that measurement, etc.  I think a Lightweaver can use this process to not just record something in the Cognitive Aspect of an Art, but use that Art to re-define the original (ie Soulcasting).  So when we've seen her consciously Change a Snapshot picture of a person, she is making subtle alterations to that Cognitive Aspect record; and when the subject sees the picture and likes what they see, those changes get internalized; it literally and realmically Changes their Self Image. At that point it's basically Soulcasting being utilized in such a subtle and complex way that it's approaching Forgery, rather than the more primitive and/or brute-force Essences method.  I think it is also related to how Shallan is fracturing her own Cognitive Aspect into multiple personalities, and I think it's telling that to do so she's always had to Draw her new Self first.  

What about the instance (I think it is with Kabsal or the guy from the boat?) where Shallan has the guy hold a mirror next to himself angled so she can see her face. She then takes a capture. She draws him and her face, and then adds the rest of herself in the picture. 

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Progression grants two powers that, at least over in the Metallic Arts, are separate things.  Growth is about moving forward, it's basically accelerated Aging (ie Feruchemical Atium), while ReGrowth is about restoration of what was (ie Feruchemcial Gold) before it has settled into a given Change that has redefined it and becomes the new Truth of a thing.  So under theory that Lightweaving is granting Lightweavers a certain amount of Realmic Perception (supported by the Truthwatcher moniker if nothing else), the idea is that when it's combined with Soulcasting it grants an increased subtly in Changing somebody, but when combined with Regrowth it grants an increased ability to restore the thing by being able to see deeper into their past.   

Though I should say that Regrowth has so far been pretty specific to Living things, so calling it "Object" reading is likely inacurrate

 

But I thought cosmere healing worked on returning the body to the spiritual ideal that is filtered through the cognitive, which is why if you convince yourself enough regarding your core identity, you can affect how things are healed. So for instance a man who identifies as a woman, has gender reassignment surgery. If that individual then had cosmere healing right after the surgery, then that individual would be a woman. As in all healed and fully functioning as if born with all the physical aspects of a woman. WoB confirms this. If later on that individual was shot, or hurt, then the healing would still return them to the female form ideal that that individual holds within themselves. Not further into the past when they were once physically a man. 

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Posted (edited)

17 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

What about the instance (I think it is with Kabsal or the guy from the boat?) where Shallan has the guy hold a mirror next to himself angled so she can see her face. She then takes a capture. She draws him and her face, and then adds the rest of herself in the picture. 

Honestly I barely remember the scene, but I think it would depend on what her intent for that drawing was.  Do you recall what the context was?  In general the idea for the normal case of her perfect recollection drawing is really just that she is creating a Cognitive aspect for the completed work ahead of time (or at least the part that is based on some sensory input) and then she is able to "get it out" but making a proper Physical Aspect for it to attach itself to, which is why they come out perfect but she a) cannot really examine the image while it's in her mind, and B) why they come out at least as accurate as reality (sometimes more in the case of Unmade or Cryptics), as opposed to my artistic limit of pre-school crayon scrawls.  She is still free to then just fiddle with it the old fashioned way with her normal artistic talents, which is what Im assuming she's doing any time she draws something that is not based on a Memory. 

Quote

But I thought cosmere healing worked on returning the body to the spiritual ideal that is filtered through the cognitive, which is why if you convince yourself enough regarding your core identity, you can affect how things are healed. So for instance a man who identifies as a woman, has gender reassignment surgery. If that individual then had cosmere healing right after the surgery, then that individual would be a woman. As in all healed and fully functioning as if born with all the physical aspects of a woman. WoB confirms this. If later on that individual was shot, or hurt, then the healing would still return them to the female form ideal that that individual holds within themselves. Not further into the past when they were once physically a man. 

That's all true (or at least my understanding of it) but that's more of an instance where Self Image is overriding things.  Im thinking more in the instance specifically with Renarin's Regrowth use, where there is a time limit after which he cannot heal somebody's injury,exactly like Dalinar's I think is related to how there is a certain amount of lag between the Physical Realm and it's reflection in the congitive.  Though it's admittedly odd to me that Radiant's and Squires dont seem to have that same time limitation that Regrowth has.  My best guess is that there is a fundamental difference when it's your own Investiture healing yourself, vs healing someone (or something) else.  

In a general sense I think it's important that the Spiritual Ideal exists in the Spiritual Realm, where Time is barely a thing.  This means that your Spiritual Ideal isnt just a snapshot of how you are Now, it's (theoretically) how you are at every point in your life, Past Present and Future, and it simply knows which version of you belongs to the Present.  That's why (per WOB) Age and Health are separate things in metallic arts; so if a feruchemist has fiddled with his age and then heal himself, he gets healed to the new/younger template rather than his "actual" self.  I figure it's also related to how cosmere healing has trouble healing age-related damage or genetic maladies, and I dont know how much Self-Image influences that side of things.  Dalinar is feeling his age these days and being a Radiant isnt going to Repair that stuff, even when his Self-Image is likely still that of a much younger man.  WOB has it that Kaladin isnt going to be able to heal away his Depression because it's more of a real-world depression due brain chemistry imbalance, and something he was born with.  But if he became convinced that his Dark Times depression episodes where happening because something was "broken" and he rejected it strongly enough, would he be able to correct the imbalance?

Edited by Quantus
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30 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Honestly I barely remember the scene, but I think it would depend on what her intent for that drawing was.  Do you recall what the context was?  In general the idea for the normal case of her perfect recollection drawing is really just that she is creating a Cognitive aspect for the completed work ahead of time (or at least the part that is based on some sensory input) and then she is able to "get it out" but making a proper Physical Aspect for it to attach itself to, which is why they come out perfect but she a) cannot really examine the image while it's in her mind, and B) why they come out at least as accurate as reality (sometimes more in the case of Unmade or Cryptics), as opposed to my artistic limit of pre-school crayon scrawls.  She is still free to then just fiddle with it the old fashioned way with her normal artistic talents, which is what Im assuming she's doing any time she draws something that is not based on a Memory. 

Found the scene! (it is a little long so I will jump around regarding the parts specific in the mirror and drawing)

Way of Kings Page 639

She paused. She rarely did sketches of herself. They felt strange to draw. "All right" SHe took the sphere, then furtively tucked it into her safepounch, beside her soulcaster....

"Hold it up beside your head" Shallan said "so I can see myself"

He walked back over, doing so, looking confused.

"Angle it to the side a little" Shallan said "all right, there." She blinked, freezing in her mind the image of her face beside his. "Have a seat. You don't need the mirror any longer. I just wanted it for reference - it helps me for some reason to place my features into the scene I want to sketch. I'll put myself sitting beside you."

Sketching herself in beside him was challenging. SHe worked furiously, blending the reality of Kabsal sitting and a fiction of herself, in her flower - embroidered dress, sitting with her legs to the side. The face in the mirror became her reference point, and she built her head around it. Too narrow to be beautiful, with hair too light, cheeks dotted with freckles....

She continued her drawing, increasingly withdrawn into her thoughts, letting her fingers work.....

Her sketching grew more and more fervent. She finished the figures and moved to the background. Quick, bold lines became the floor and the archway behind. A scribbled dark smudge for the side of the desk, casting a shadow. Crisp, thin lines for the lantern sitting on the floor. Sweeping, breezelike lines to form the legs and robes of the creature standing behind-...

30 minutes ago, Quantus said:

That's all true (or at least my understanding of it) but that's more of an instance where Self Image is overriding things.  Im thinking more in the instance specifically with Renarin's Regrowth use, where there is a time limit after which he cannot heal somebody's injury,exactly like Dalinar's I think is related to how there is a certain amount of lag between the Physical Realm and it's reflection in the congitive.  Though it's admittedly odd to me that Radiant's and Squires dont seem to have that same time limitation that Regrowth has.  My best guess is that there is a fundamental difference when it's your own Investiture healing yourself, vs healing someone (or something) else.  

In a general sense I think it's important that the Spiritual Ideal exists in the Spiritual Realm, where Time is barely a thing.  This means that your Spiritual Ideal isnt just a snapshot of how you are Now, it's (theoretically) how you are at every point in your life, Past Present and Future, and it simply knows which version of you belongs to the Present.  That's why (per WOB) Age and Health are separate things in metallic arts; so if a feruchemist has fiddled with his age and then heal himself, he gets healed to the new/younger template rather than his "actual" self.  I figure it's also related to how cosmere healing has trouble healing age-related damage or genetic maladies, and I dont know how much Self-Image influences that side of things.  Dalinar is feeling his age these days and being a Radiant isnt going to Repair that stuff, even when his Self-Image is likely still that of a much younger man.  WOB has it that Kaladin isnt going to be able to heal away his Depression because it's more of a real-world depression due brain chemistry imbalance, and something he was born with.  But if he became convinced that his Dark Times depression episodes where happening because something was "broken" and he rejected it strongly enough, would he be able to correct the imbalance?

The "time limit" I believe still applies to the person's image of self. They begin to see the injury as part of who they are, so it cannot be healed. Which is why Kaladin's brands won't heal despite stormlight. Conversely even an old injury could still be healed so long as the individual does not see it as part of who they are. The shardblade injured bridgeman who lost use of his feet for example for one. Lopen regrowing his arm for two. I believe Brandon has said your spiritual ideal knows how old you should be, so it will continually try to bring you back to that "ideal". Brandon has also said that mental illnesses he does not see as something to be healed. To clarify he is not referring to a chemical imbalance. That is a different matter. 

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30 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Found the scene! (it is a little long so I will jump around regarding the parts specific in the mirror and drawing)

Way of Kings Page 639

Awesome.  Honestly, that sounds to me like it's less about any quirk of her memory and/or Art and more about having a crush on Kabsal and wanting to draw a picture of the two of them together.  She hasnt needed to insert herself any other time that Ive noticed, and even there she said she rarely draws herself.  

30 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The "time limit" I believe still applies to the person's image of self. They begin to see the injury as part of who they are, so it cannot be healed. Which is why Kaladin's brands won't heal despite stormlight. Conversely even an old injury could still be healed so long as the individual does not see it as part of who they are. The shardblade injured bridgeman who lost use of his feet for example for one. Lopen regrowing his arm for two. I believe Brandon has said your spiritual ideal knows how old you should be, so it will continually try to bring you back to that "ideal". Brandon has also said that mental illnesses he does not see as something to be healed. To clarify he is not referring to a chemical imbalance. That is a different matter. 

Regrowth definitely has a much shorter time limit, and one that doesnt seem to vary quite as much as other instances of cosmere healing.  When Renarin was healing the victims of the first Everstorm he could only heal the most recent damage, and I think at that point it had only been a matter of days. If it had been purely about self-image I think is struggle would have seemed more random rather that correlating so much to time.   By contrast we've seen Squires heal themselves after a much longer time-frame.  I think the distinction between healing yourself vs somebody else is where the difference would be, so for the purposes of this Truthwatcher resonance theory, Im guessing they'll be able to extend that limit.  

 

On Kaladin you are right, I was combining WOBs in my head.  I was thinking of this one (cut for length), and was assuming that Kaladin's chemical depression would fall into the "genetic diseases" category, which may be way off base.  

 

Quote

 

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, yes. They can heal their body to match their spiritual ideal, but some things (like some genetic diseases, and age-related illnesses) are seen as part of the ideal. Depends on several factors.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 29, 2016)

 

 
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18 hours ago, Quantus said:

Awesome.  Honestly, that sounds to me like it's less about any quirk of her memory and/or Art and more about having a crush on Kabsal and wanting to draw a picture of the two of them together.  She hasnt needed to insert herself any other time that Ive noticed, and even there she said she rarely draws herself.  

 

It is because Kabsal requested it. So I guess my question is Shallan took a "capture" of Kabsal holding up a mirror, with her face in it. She then while drawing added the details of the rest of her to make it appear that she was sitting beside him. If the "capture" in the cognitive is fully what the artwork is to end up as, then why does she alter and think on what she is doing during the process of drawing? Shouldn't the full image form in her mind with all the changes she intends to do there first, and then be drawn out?

18 hours ago, Quantus said:

Regrowth definitely has a much shorter time limit, and one that doesnt seem to vary quite as much as other instances of cosmere healing.  When Renarin was healing the victims of the first Everstorm he could only heal the most recent damage, and I think at that point it had only been a matter of days. If it had been purely about self-image I think is struggle would have seemed more random rather that correlating so much to time.   By contrast we've seen Squires heal themselves after a much longer time-frame.  I think the distinction between healing yourself vs somebody else is where the difference would be, so for the purposes of this Truthwatcher resonance theory, Im guessing they'll be able to extend that limit.  

I don't think we can say yet whether or not Regrowth has a time limit. Adolin had an injured wrist for a little while, yet Renarin was able to heal him with regrowth. I think how the target views the injury comes just as much into play as with squire/radiant healing.

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I would think that she does a complete cognitive capture of the moment.  I do believe that her identity and the process of the art will allow for those changes. Which is a cool concept,  right? 

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15 minutes ago, First Witness said:

I would think that she does a complete cognitive capture of the moment.  I do believe that her identity and the process of the art will allow for those changes. Which is a cool concept,  right? 

Just checking, are you replying to me?

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Well,  just on the concept as it's mentioned,  ...yeah. 

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30 minutes ago, First Witness said:

Well,  just on the concept as it's mentioned,  ...yeah. 

Ah gotcha. That's why I asked. Didn't know if you were replying to something I said. But you are just commenting on @Quantus theory. Thanks for clarifying!

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18 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

It is because Kabsal requested it. So I guess my question is Shallan took a "capture" of Kabsal holding up a mirror, with her face in it. She then while drawing added the details of the rest of her to make it appear that she was sitting beside him. If the "capture" in the cognitive is fully what the artwork is to end up as, then why does she alter and think on what she is doing during the process of drawing? Shouldn't the full image form in her mind with all the changes she intends to do there first, and then be drawn out?

From what Ive seen, I think she can only do the Capture bit with what she actually Observes, and still has to engage her own normal artistic skill for any 'photoshopping' (either changes or additions) which would then filter back to the cognitive bead of the drawing at the normal pace.  Though I suppose it's possibly that she could learn to include alterations with the initial capture; I dont know if she's even ever actually tried, she seems to treat the ability purely as a mental Polaroid.  

 

18 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I don't think we can say yet whether or not Regrowth has a time limit. Adolin had an injured wrist for a little while, yet Renarin was able to heal him with regrowth. I think how the target views the injury comes just as much into play as with squire/radiant healing.

Even that was a matter of days though, whereas Lopen had been missing an arm for years.  Renarin was healing enough folks at the hospital to run into a bunch of people and correlate the ones he couldnt heal to those that had been injured longest, and I find it a little hard to believe that it was all due to that many people just accepting their new situation unusually quickly and coincidentally being the earliest injuries.  Given how so many of the other investiture functions work, it makes sense to me that there would be a functional difference between healing yourself with your own investiture and Slef-image, versus infusing somebody else with Investiture to get it done.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, Quantus said:

From what Ive seen, I think she can only do the Capture bit with what she actually Observes, and still has to engage her own normal artistic skill for any 'photoshopping' (either changes or additions) which would then filter back to the cognitive bead of the drawing at the normal pace.  Though I suppose it's possibly that she could learn to include alterations with the initial capture; I dont know if she's even ever actually tried, she seems to treat the ability purely as a mental Polaroid.  

I guess? I dunno, it still doesn't feel right to me, but that doesn't mean you are wrong nor that there is anything saying you are wrong. I wish you luck with your theory!

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Even that was a matter of days though, whereas Lopen had been missing an arm for years.  Renarin was healing enough folks at the hospital to run into a bunch of people and correlate the ones he couldnt heal to those that had been injured longest, and I find it a little hard to believe that it was all due to that many people just accepting their new situation unusually quickly and coincidentally being the earliest injuries.  Given how so many of the other investiture functions work, it makes sense to me that there would be a functional difference between healing yourself with your own investiture and Slef-image, versus infusing somebody else with Investiture to get it done.  

Dalinar seems to think it functions the same. I pulled up the scene where Renarin was healing at the temple and found this:

Oathbringer page 597

A small family left the temple above. Judging by the father's tentative steps, supported by his sons, it seemed the man had broken a leg or two in the most recent storm. The burly man gestured for his sons to step back, took a few steps on his own - and then, his eyes wide, did a short skip. 

Dalinar knew that feeling: the lingering effects of stormlight. "I should have seen it earlier - I should have sent for him the moment I saw those wounded. I'm a fool." Dalinar shook his head "Renarin has the ability to heal. He is new to his powers, as I am to mine, and can best heal those who were recently wounded. I wonder if it's similar to what I'm doing. Once the soul grows accustomed to the wound, it's much harder to fix"

 

Now the scene with Rysn. She has resigned herself to being disabled. She views it as recompense for the action she took in climbing the greatshell. She sees this injury as permanent and a part of who she now is, so it remains. 

Oathbringer page 1061

"Have you tried that Radiant who-"

"Yes, He can't heal my legs. It's been too long since my accident, which is appropriate. This is my consequence - payment for a contract I entered into willingly the moment I climbed down the side of that greatshell. 

"You don't have to lock yourself away, Rysn"

"This is a good job. You yourself got it for me"

"Because you refused to go on further trading expeditions!"

"What good would I be? One must trade from a position of power, something I can never do again. Besides, an exotic goods merchant who can't walk? You know how much hiking is required."

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15 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I guess? I dunno, it still doesn't feel right to me, but that doesn't mean you are wrong nor that there is anything saying you are wrong. I wish you luck with your theory!

Dalinar seems to think it functions the same. I pulled up the scene where Renarin was healing at the temple and found this:

Oathbringer page 597

A small family left the temple above. Judging by the father's tentative steps, supported by his sons, it seemed the man had broken a leg or two in the most recent storm. The burly man gestured for his sons to step back, took a few steps on his own - and then, his eyes wide, did a short skip. 

Dalinar knew that feeling: the lingering effects of stormlight. "I should have seen it earlier - I should have sent for him the moment I saw those wounded. I'm a fool." Dalinar shook his head "Renarin has the ability to heal. He is new to his powers, as I am to mine, and can best heal those who were recently wounded. I wonder if it's similar to what I'm doing. Once the soul grows accustomed to the wound, it's much harder to fix"

I took this as a reference to how Dalinar faces a similar time-constraint when he uses his surges to repair an inanimate object, not a referenc to his own generic Radiant healing, but I could easily be wrong.  

15 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Now the scene with Rysn. She has resigned herself to being disabled. She views it as recompense for the action she took in climbing the greatshell. She sees this injury as permanent and a part of who she now is, so it remains. 

Oathbringer page 1061

"Have you tried that Radiant who-"

"Yes, He can't heal my legs. It's been too long since my accident, which is appropriate. This is my consequence - payment for a contract I entered into willingly the moment I climbed down the side of that greatshell. 

"You don't have to lock yourself away, Rysn"

"This is a good job. You yourself got it for me"

"Because you refused to go on further trading expeditions!"

"What good would I be? One must trade from a position of power, something I can never do again. Besides, an exotic goods merchant who can't walk? You know how much hiking is required."

This makes sense too, in that I fully expect her to be unable to heal herself even if she became radiant.  To be clear the theory is that Self-image will still override and prevent healing if the person has accepted it, regardless of time.  It's just that, per the passage you quoted, Regrowth used on somebody else seems to also be limited to recent injuries.

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5 minutes ago, Quantus said:

This makes sense too, in that I fully expect her to be unable to heal herself even if she became radiant.  To be clear the theory is that Self-image will still override and prevent healing if the person has accepted it, regardless of time.  It's just that, per the passage you quoted, Regrowth used on somebody else seems to also be limited to recent injuries.

Lopen managed to regrow his arm despite it being months at least since he lost it.

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