19 posts in this topic

Dear old Sazed. He was my favorite character in mistborn so I was pleasantly surprised when he not only survived the series but also became a god. Now while I have the utmost respect for the ninja librarian, did he make a mistake in interpreting Ruin+Preservation into Harmony? (Granted it was a new experience and he was under a lot of pressure.)

We know he's under a lot of stain from holding two shards, but is that because he interpreted the two as Harmony? Harmony is the balance between Ruin and Preservation. So by definition Sazed still views himself as holding two shards (they would still be dropped as harmony if anything were too happen to Sazed). If he had interpreted them differently would he be more free to act? If he had chosen something closer to Nature as the new name would he not feel utterly torn between two shards as maybe they would have mixed more completely? What do you guys think?

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Posted (edited)

My theory is that Harmony is eventually going to become:

Spoiler

 

Edited by Lightning
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5 minutes ago, Lightning said:

Why theory is that Harmony is eventually going to become:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Will I guess Sazed did better than expected. Discord would have been even worse I suppose. Same problem just compounded.

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1 hour ago, Lightning said:

My theory is that Harmony is eventually going to become:

  Hide contents

 

I see what you did there. :)

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The Terris prophecies actually predicted the intent of Discord, rather than Harmony:

Quote

"He shall defend their ways, yet shall violate them. He will be their savior, yet they shall call him heretic. His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it."

And it's fully possible that he could have gone that way instead:

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Shallan's Ward

While Sazed holds Preservation and Ruin, could his intent change from Harmony to Discord?

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)
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chasmfriend's friend (Paraphrased)

My friend asked for Brandon to write something about Harmony in her Alloy of Law.

Brandon Sanderson

There's another name Harmony could go by if he weren't able to control the conflict between his halves… *to Zas* Have you guys figured that one out yet? Oh, I'm not going to say anything. You have it on recording… I was pretty sneaky with that one so I don't know if you have it or not.

Holiday signing (Dec. 12, 2015)
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Questioner

Last time you said that his name, if it wasn’t Harmony, it would be something else. Is it Discord?

Brandon Sanderson

This is relevant.

Questioner

It is relevant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Footnote: The questioner is referring to this exchange.
Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

I've got no doubts that Sazed's struggle to keep two opposing shards in check will be relevant in the future.

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9 hours ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

If he had interpreted them differently would he be more free to act? If he had chosen something closer to Nature as the new name would he not feel utterly torn between two shards as maybe they would have mixed more completely? What do you guys think?

First of all I am not sure that "choice" is the write word.  We are working with Sazed's fundamental understanding of the world as he sees it he did not just decide "Harmony is the best I can do" on a whim or by deducing rationally that this was the best way.  A different Sazed would certainly have seen things differently but this is not what happened.  I personally think that Harmony was a good choice but that is based on my internal belief system which values independence in individual agents not any objective standard.

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27 minutes ago, Karger said:

First of all I am not sure that "choice" is the write word.  We are working with Sazed's fundamental understanding of the world as he sees it he did not just decide "Harmony is the best I can do" on a whim or by deducing rationally that this was the best way.  A different Sazed would certainly have seen things differently but this is not what happened.  I personally think that Harmony was a good choice but that is based on my internal belief system which values independence in individual agents not any objective standard.

I'm not sure I'm catching your point?

The question was if Sazed had interpreted them differently, would he be more free to act. Yes, I know what he interpreted them as already. This is a what if question.

(Sorry if that sounds snarky... I had teeth pulled and it's time to go take some pain meds again:-))

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9 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

The question was if Sazed had interpreted them differently, would he be more free to act. Yes, I know what he interpreted them as already. This is a what if question.

(Sorry if that sounds snarky... I had teeth pulled and it's time to go take some pain meds again:-))

Its fine.  My point was that I don't think he could have interpreted them differently unless he was a completely different person.  This was not a strategic choice.  Discord would have left him freer to act but that has other problems.  Same with most other alternatives I can think of.

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20 hours ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

We know he's under a lot of stain from holding two shards, but is that because he interpreted the two as Harmony? Harmony is the balance between Ruin and Preservation. So by definition Sazed still views himself as holding two shards (they would still be dropped as harmony if anything were too happen to Sazed).

Ruin could be seen as the compromise between decay and destruction. Yet to destroy you need to organize. You could potentially split up any Shard multiple ways.

20 hours ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

 If he had interpreted them differently would he be more free to act?

Likely.

20 hours ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

If he had chosen something closer to Nature as the new name would he not feel utterly torn between two shards as maybe they would have mixed more completely? What do you guys think?

He wouldn't want to. Sazed believes in diversity and variation. To him it is better to be passive than to dictate actions. A Shard is a kind of mental illness, as it instills a compulsion into your mind. Minimizing that is a worthy goal.

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If it gets to the point that he can't act at all, then Sazed should hand the shards to someone else. Sazed is my favorite character and was the perfect person to pick up both shards, but now that he has combined them and people just need connection to one shard instead of two, Sazed could give it to someone else who could interpret them more usefully. 

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2 hours ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

If it gets to the point that he can't act at all, then Sazed should hand the shards to someone else. Sazed is my favorite character and was the perfect person to pick up both shards, but now that he has combined them and people just need connection to one shard instead of two, Sazed could give it to someone else who could interpret them more usefully. 

  1. Sazed loves liberalism. Passing the power to somebody else won't work
  2. He does not need to act a lot. All he needs to do is create a few hundred beads of Lerasium and some kilos of Atium and there will be his army. That may be the role Wax is being groomed for. He will be the general.
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8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:
  • Sazed loves liberalism. Passing the power to somebody else won't work
  • He does not need to act a lot. All he needs to do is create a few hundred beads of Lerasium and some kilos of Atium and there will be his army. That may be the role Wax is being groomed for. He will be the general.

This sounds suspiciously like acting.

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Just now, Karger said:

This sounds suspiciously like acting.

He moved a planet, shifted continents, redesigned populations. He has a problem taking sides, not acting in general. Gathering and transmitting information, however, is what he excels at.

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28 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

He moved a planet, shifted continents, redesigned populations. He has a problem taking sides, not acting in general. Gathering and transmitting information, however, is what he excels at.

The whole moving continents stuff was when he first ascended and did not have to worry about the shard's intent(s).  He now has to be more circumspect.  Making more mistborn and producing atium specifically for them to use is not something he can do very easily especially because he promised not to take sides.  Giving a few hints to some people on the ground seems to be the limit of what he is going to do.

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, Karger said:

 Giving a few hints to some people on the ground seems to be the limit of what he is going to do.

Bands of Mourning hints that he is using most of his power to hold back some kind of other-Shardic enemy/influence from elsewhere (the weird red thing in Wax's edge-of-death vision). Their conversation seems to me to imply that Sazed is willing to intervene 'directly' to protect Scadrial as a whole against harm originating elsewhere, but only acts through agents and hints against harm caused by Scadrian people to other Scadrian people.

I doubt any combination of Ruin and Preservation would produce a Shard that was much more helpful. Discord sounds rather more harmful. I think you could plausibly get something like Memory/Remembrance (preservation of some part of what has now decayed) but that doesn't sound terribly active either.

Edited by cometaryorbit
other combinations
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As I understand it, it's not the Intent of Harmony that causes the problems, but the fundamental fact that he holds two strictly opposing Shards. I don't believe it would have made much of a difference in that regard. Brandon himself said, that "his two shards are at odds with one another", which to me sounds like the Shards are the problem as opposed to other factors.

12 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Bands of Mourning hints that he is using most of his power to hold back some kind of other-Shardic enemy/influence from elsewhere (the weird red thing in Wax's edge-of-death vision). Their conversation seems to me to imply that Sazed is willing to intervene 'directly' to protect Scadrial as a whole against harm originating elsewhere, but only acts through agents and hints against harm caused by Scadrian people to other Scadrian people.

I doubt any combination of Ruin and Preservation would produce a Shard that was much more helpful. Discord sounds rather more harmful. I think you could plausibly get something like Memory/Remembrance (preservation of some part of what has now decayed) but that doesn't sound terribly active either.

I don't think Memory would have been an option, since it does not destroy anything. If anything, that would be an alternate interpretation of Preservation. Maybe Nostalgia - the incapability of letting go. There's nothing destructive about it though.

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On 7/1/2019 at 2:26 PM, Elegy said:

As I understand it, it's not the Intent of Harmony that causes the problems, but the fundamental fact that he holds two strictly opposing Shards. I don't believe it would have made much of a difference in that regard.

I'm not sure that there is much difference between the statements. Sure, Sazed's problem is the inherent opposition of the two Shards, but the Intent of Harmony is Sazed's interpretation of how to combine the two.

I think an Intent of Discord might be somewhat more active, but almost certainly not better for the people on Scadrial.

 

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I don't think Memory would have been an option, since it does not destroy anything. If anything, that would be an alternate interpretation of Preservation. Maybe Nostalgia - the incapability of letting go. There's nothing destructive about it though.

Harmony doesn't seem very destructive either.


I'm not sure that combining shard intents needs to be a simple 50/50 mix of both, I think you could get a new concept which somehow includes both. Otherwise Preservation and Ruin together would just cancel out. Also, Elend does comment in Secret History (in reference to why Sazed was Connected to both Shards), "Ruin is more than death and destruction. It is peace with these things."

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Posted (edited)

So something occurred to me earlier, and this seems to be close enough to topic to be appropriate. This is more what-if than a fully fledged theory so stay with me.

What if the conflict with Harmony being mostly unable to act has created such a strong dichotomy within him that he's suffered a personality split, where his Ruin side had adapted Trell as a personality based on Trelagism which he learned as a Keeper, meaning Preservation would take up Nalt as a personality as well. Harmony, sitting right in between still, could be completely unaware of this, explaining why he has been largely unreachable, and the presence of a new unknown god metal. I suspect that metal may be a new or somehow disguised form of Atium aka the Lost Metal. 

Just imagine Tyler Durden with a Shard :huh:

I haven't completely thought it through, I just wanted to get it down before I stored it back on my copper mind :D

Just wanted to add that original Trelagism was entirely based on a similar duality between two brothers.

Edited by Solant
Duality
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Posted (edited)

25 minutes ago, Solant said:

So something occurred to me earlier, and this seems to be close enough to topic to be appropriate. This is more what-if than a fully fledged theory so stay with me.

What if the conflict with Harmony being mostly unable to act has created such a strong dichotomy within him that he's suffered a personality split, where his Ruin side had adapted Trell as a personality based on Trelagism which he learned as a Keeper, meaning Preservation would take up Nalt as a personality as well. Harmony, sitting right in between still, could be completely unaware of this, explaining why he has been largely unreachable, and the presence of a new unknown god metal. I suspect that metal may be a new or somehow disguised form of Atium aka the Lost Metal. 

Just imagine Tyler Durden with a Shard :huh:

I haven't completely thought it through, I just wanted to get it down before I stored it back on my copper mind :D

Just wanted to add that original Trelagism was entirely based on a similar duality between two brothers.

This is an idea that once came up in some Trell-related topic, and it's really fascinating and thought-provoking and has had me concerned for a while now. That said, we know that the metal at the end of SoS was Trell's and not even Harmony and the Kandra knew what was up with that. So basically, it has to be a Shard beyond the two he's holding, or else he'd know the metal. But it's a really neat idea.

Edited by Elegy
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