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Shardic Future Sight


Who's the Best at Future Sight?  

28 members have voted

  1. 1. Shards

    • Ambition
    • Autonomy
      0
    • Cultivation
    • Devotion
      0
    • Dominion
      0
    • Endowment
    • Honor
    • Odium
    • Preservation
    • Ruin
      0
    • Harmony


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1 hour ago, Karger said:

Vivenaa (to the best of our knowledge) is not a returned so Endowment can not take credit for her.

She is a descendant of a returned which is why she can change her hair color. So without a returned, Vivienna would not have been a thing to begin with. 

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But Endowment does not want to get involved in Roshar.  She still holds vary strongly to her interpretation of the none interference agreement.

Kind of a rabbit hole theory, but wouldn't it seem like a smart thing to overtly seem like you are supporting the non-aggression pact, while working in the background? Cultivation is pretending not to care about the humans since honor died, and acting as if she isn't doing anything, yet we know the reality is quite different. So why not potentially Endowment in her own way?

Edited by Pathfinder
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54 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

She is a descendant of a returned which is why she can change her hair color. So without a returned, Vivienna would not have been a thing to begin with. 

Kind of a rabbit hole theory, but wouldn't it seem like a smart thing to overtly seem like you are supporting the non-aggression pact, while working in the background? Cultivation is pretending not to care about the humans since honor died, and acting as if she isn't doing anything, yet we know the reality is quite different. So why not potentially Endowment in her own way?

This.  We know she told Hoid that she was uninterested in interfering, but that could just as easily mean that she didnt want to put statements of obvious support of Hoid in writing. My tinfoil theory on this topic is that she's encouraged Nalthis to have such established Cognitive Realm trade precisely because she is trying to subltely influence the other shardworlds without being liable for it.  But a prophetic painting here, a handful of Scholars there, maybe a nudge to let the Spren reverse engineer the Honorblades... Note that the Radiant Oaths come in Fives, and Five is Endowment's magic Number.

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3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Kind of a rabbit hole theory, but wouldn't it seem like a smart thing to overtly seem like you are supporting the non-aggression pact, while working in the background? Cultivation is pretending not to care about the humans since honor died, and acting as if she isn't doing anything, yet we know the reality is quite different. So why not potentially Endowment in her own way?

My point is that at least two people who she supposedly used future sight to create are both acting against her stated intentions.

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24 minutes ago, Karger said:

My point is that at least two people who she supposedly used future sight to create are both acting against her stated intentions.

I got that. and what Quantus is saying, and I helped clarify, is there is a potential for her to claim one intention, while in reality acting towards another. Cultivation claims the intention of not getting involved with the humans and the war, yet we see the reality is she is very involved (Lift, Dalinar, potentially Taravangian). So the potential is there. Not confirmed by any stretch, and it is all rabbit hole/tin foil theory, but it is potential. 

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43 minutes ago, Karger said:

I do not recall her ever saying that.

Odium does. Other characters do. They are given the impression that Cultivation does not care since the death of Honor. I think there was a WoB as well, so give me a sec to pull that up. 

 

edit: found it! i think there is another one too, so I will try to find it, but this is what i found so far.

 

Gavin-son-son-Odegard

How does Cultivation figure in this conflict between Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

So, what people assume is that Cultivation is hiding. I would disagree with that. People in-world would assume that.

 

Questioner

We saw that, in one case that she felt it was very important, Cultivation intervened when Dalinar was asking for his boon from the Nightwatcher. You said that for the most part she just sort of lets her work, but has she intervened in other cases that she feels are important, specifically with Taravangian?

Brandon Sanderson

She has intervened before.

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Just now, Pathfinder said:

Odium does. Other characters do. They are given the impression that Cultivation does not care since the death of Honor. I think there was a WoB as well, so give me a sec to pull that up. 

The Stormfather says that she is hiding and calls it "cowardice" Dalinar points out that hers might be the correct course of action.  I don't believe anything Odium says should be taken at face value but all he says is that she does not care about good or bad provided that growth happens.  Wyndal says "she does not care anymore" but he is probably just wining(like he is about everything else).  He gives no indication that this is anything more then something he is afraid of.

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4 minutes ago, Karger said:

The Stormfather says that she is hiding and calls it "cowardice" Dalinar points out that hers might be the correct course of action.  I don't believe anything Odium says should be taken at face value but all he says is that she does not care about good or bad provided that growth happens.  Wyndal says "she does not care anymore" but he is probably just wining(like he is about everything else).  He gives no indication that this is anything more then something he is afraid of.

My post got updated with the relevant WoB. People on Roshar think Cultivation is hiding and not facing Odium. The reality is quite different. So to me the analogy stands. Cultivation is claiming one thing regarding Odium so he doesn't consider her an active threat, but in reality she is moving things behind the scenes. Overtly Endowment could be saying leave everyone alone, but be covertly moving things behind the scenes. From the info I have read, I feel Cultivation is confirmed, while Endowment is a theory. 

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5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

My post got updated with the relevant WoB. People on Roshar think Cultivation is hiding and not facing Odium. The reality is quite different. So to me the analogy stands. Cultivation is claiming one thing regarding Odium so he doesn't consider her an active threat, but in reality she is moving things behind the scenes. Overtly Endowment could be saying leave everyone alone, but be covertly moving things behind the scenes. From the info I have read, I feel Cultivation is confirmed, while Endowment is a theory. 

The two situations do not strike me as analogous.  Endowment has stated that she is not involved and refuses to help Hoid with Odium.  Cultivation has never stated she is not involved(her partner was just killed saying so would be ridiculous) and she is working steadily to undermine Odium however she can(Dalinar, potentially Lift and Taravangian). 

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9 minutes ago, Karger said:

The two situations do not strike me as analogous.  Endowment has stated that she is not involved and refuses to help Hoid with Odium.  Cultivation has never stated she is not involved(her partner was just killed saying so would be ridiculous) and she is working steadily to undermine Odium however she can(Dalinar, potentially Lift and Taravangian). 

Personally I feel the WoB I posted, and will post again below is self explanatory and stands on its own. If that does not work for you, then I guess to each their own. 

 

Gavin-son-son-Odegard

How does Cultivation figure in this conflict between Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

So, what people assume is that Cultivation is hiding. I would disagree with that. People in-world would assume that.

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10 hours ago, Quantus said:

Seeing the Future changes the Future, so just like two Atium burners fighting, Future Sight offers no definitive advantage in Shard-Vs-Shard conflicts.  They all have it to some extent by virtue of existing primarily in the Spiritual Realm.  

The question is who's better. Per your Atium example, that's not quite true. Preservation was able to take all of Ruin's plans into account and manipulate the events that happened so it very much gives an advantage dependent on how good they are.

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2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Personally I feel the WoB I posted, and will post again below is self explanatory and stands on its own. If that does not work for you, then I guess to each their own. 

 

Gavin-son-son-Odegard

How does Cultivation figure in this conflict between Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

So, what people assume is that Cultivation is hiding. I would disagree with that. People in-world would assume that.

That's just what people in world assume, Cultivation has never said she's not involved.

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8 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

She is a descendant of a returned which is why she can change her hair color. So without a returned, Vivienna would not have been a thing to begin with. 

Kind of a rabbit hole theory, but wouldn't it seem like a smart thing to overtly seem like you are supporting the non-aggression pact, while working in the background? Cultivation is pretending not to care about the humans since honor died, and acting as if she isn't doing anything, yet we know the reality is quite different. So why not potentially Endowment in her own way?

Just because she's a descendant of a Returned doesn't mean Endowment planned for her existence when she created her Returned ancestor. That's like saying Preservation planned for Wax.

The assumption that Endowment has planned so far ahead into every interaction her Returned cause is itself a rabbit hole theory. I'm sure that she has agents on Roshar and maybe influencing a few actions. That is not the same as having a gigantic plan that so many of you believe. That relies on many assumptions that have little backing from either material in the books or from WoB.

In fact there is this WoB. This implies she doesn't have any strong influences with what's going on on Roshar. Likely meaning that all the things Vivenna and Vasher are doing aren't something she's planned out in any capacity

Quote

Questioner

What is Endowment’s long term plan?  Like just even in general, is she just like “Keep Nalthis safe” like Sazed is or is she like, does she have a plan for...

Brandon Sanderson

Nooo, um...

Questioner

You don’t have to tell me but like, does she have a plan that involves the cosmere...

Brandon Sanderson

Not really.

Questioner

...or is it just to stay on...

Brandon Sanderson

She’s more focused on her thing.

Calamity Philadelphia signing (Feb. 20, 2016)

 

Edited by StanLemon
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16 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

The question is who's better. Per your Atium example, that's not quite true. Preservation was able to take all of Ruin's plans into account and manipulate the events that happened so it very much gives an advantage dependent on how good they are.

Yeah Shards can absolutely gain advantages over each other by being better at future sight because they have more processing power available and more time. Atium is very short term, and regular people don't have the processing power to sort out all the possibilities anyway.

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27 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

That's just what people in world assume, Cultivation has never said she's not involved.

 

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Personally I feel the WoB I posted, and will post again below is self explanatory and stands on its own. If that does not work for you, then I guess to each their own. 

And hiding is a large part of some forms of combat.  Even more so against potentially superior enemies.  Hiding does not equal not involved.

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15 hours ago, StanLemon said:

That's just what people in world assume, Cultivation has never said she's not involved.

Her overt actions cause people to think she is hiding. The reality is she is working behind the scenes. Just like I said to Karger, if that WoB does not do it for you, then to each their own, but I believe it stands well on its own. 

15 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Just because she's a descendant of a Returned doesn't mean Endowment planned for her existence when she created her Returned ancestor. That's like saying Preservation planned for Wax.

Preservation didn't, but Harmony did and it is stated all over the books he did, even from his own lips. 

15 hours ago, StanLemon said:

The assumption that Endowment has planned so far ahead into every interaction her Returned cause is itself a rabbit hole theory. I'm sure that she has agents on Roshar and maybe influencing a few actions. That is not the same as having a gigantic plan that so many of you believe. That relies on many assumptions that have little backing from either material in the books or from WoB.

That is literally what I called it. A rabbit hole/tinfoil theory. I never said I personally believe it. I said it is possible/plausible. I am not trying to convince you. All I am stating is it could be considered a theory till we gain further information. 

15 hours ago, StanLemon said:

In fact there is this WoB. This implies she doesn't have any strong influences with what's going on on Roshar. Likely meaning that all the things Vivenna and Vasher are doing aren't something she's planned out in any capacity

And just like you have your own interpretation of the WoB I posted, I have my own for the one you posted. To me Brandon hedged. He said no to

"is she just like “Keep Nalthis safe” like Sazed is"

That says to me that she is not focused solely on keeping Nalthis safe to the exclusion of everything else. That runs rather counter to the statement in the book in my opinion

Then he said not really to:

"does she have a plan that involves the cosmere..."

That says to me that she does not have an overarching plan for the entire cosmere like Odium has. That does not preclude to me acting against a shard she views as a danger. 

Then finally he responded that she is focused on her thing to:

"...or is it just to stay on..."

Which says to me absolutely confirming nothing. Endowment is doing her thing. No mention of what that thing is. So to me the WoB you posted shows nothing against the possibility of Endowment working in the background. But as I said to Karger, hey we each see things differently, and that is fine. Guess RAFO!

15 hours ago, Karger said:

 

And hiding is a large part of some forms of combat.  Even more so against potentially superior enemies.  Hiding does not equal not involved.

And as I said everyone on Roshar thinks Cultivation is not involved, but you said you do not take anything they say as information, so it would be pointless to argue it. Suffice it to say, I think the theory has potential but there is not enough information at this time to go one way or the other. It doesn't work for you, and that is fine. To each their own. Guess RAFO

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Are you being willfully obtuse? Did some of you people actually read what I wrote?

@Karger You say:

On 7/2/2019 at 9:18 AM, Karger said:

Vivenaa (to the best of our knowledge) is not a returned so Endowment can not take credit for her.

I'll bold out the relevant bit:

On 6/30/2019 at 10:11 PM, TheFoxQR said:

If you think about it, Lightsong and Warbreaker, two returned, saved Vivenna's (someone with a higher concentration of Endowment's investiture) life and set her on a specific path. Highmarshal Azure has so far directly delayed atleast one scheme of Odium's, and she's still going strong. The five scholars, also Returned, were directly responsible for the creation of Nightblood, also now on Roshar. Vasher has so far atleast once probably saved Adolin's life, and god knows how many more he's responsible for via simple dissemination of certain knowledge. Both Vasher and Vivenna have played subtle supporting roles in keeping the budding Knights Radiant going.

And again, here @StanLemon you say:

On 7/1/2019 at 10:20 PM, StanLemon said:

Also, no I wouldn't say Cultivation is shotgunning it. Why? Because she's not the one doing most of the boons and banes. The only ones we know for sure she were involved in were Dalinar's and Lift's. Both were very deliberate. 

As far as the effect the Returned have, your first one is within the couple of years I specified earlier. As to the others, while they have had a big impact on Roshar that doesn't necessarily mean that that is part of any plan of hers. While I fully admit it is possible that she has planned out so much and it would be a nice level of chessmastery, it doesn't necessarily mean she's planned the actions of every Nalthis native including how they affect things around them. That's like saying that everything going on on Scadrial in Era 2 is still part of Preservation's plans.

When I'm specifically trying to imply that a similar layered choosing mechanism might be responsible for choosing the Returned. Endowment may have set up an automated mechanism that chooses who gets to Return, except the entire framework is also a great way for her to influence things quietly, just like how the boon-curse magic is perfect cover for Cultivation. Even if there is no layered choosing mechanism, she may be creating most Returned for small things. Except some, which she has bigger purposes for. Both Cultivation and Endowment have set up systems where the vast majority of cases have no real longterm purpose, but these systems allow them to create subtle and overlooked targeted missiles into the future.

Again, with the boon curse magic, we can argue these things because we know about them. Preservation, Cultivation, Harmony and Ruin have been explored thoroughly over multiple books. We know much more about them. With Endowment, we don't. All I'm saying is, don't discount her for it. She could just as easily be as good. We just don't have the specifics in her case, and I have a feeling Brandon's hesitation with writing Nightblood, the book may have something to do with all this.

On 7/1/2019 at 9:27 PM, TheFoxQR said:

You say most returned don't accomplish anything. But why does every returned have to accomplish something monumental? Would you say the Cultivation takes a shotgun approach to futuresight just because every person receiving a boon and curse from the old magic doesn't then go on to change the world? Most might just be the equivalent of batteries for Endowment, not unlike the Spren on Roshar, and the Mists and the Pits of Hathsin on Scadrial - a place for her to stow her investiture and still keep it active in the system. They also might just be the perfect mechanism to enact subtle, deniable change. Just like when Cultivation intervenes in the enactment of the old magic.

The "Just like" was the important bit. We don't know the specific mechanism for choosing the Returned. I'm not saying there is exactly a Nightwatcher analogue for Endowment and choosing the Returned. I'm saying there could be similarities. I'm saying Endowment may not deliberately be choosing every Returned to do great things. Most just might be Returning for small things. Or maybe there is a similar smaller automated mechanism, and Endowment herself only chooses a select few, others Return because of the automated mechanism. We don't know. But don't discount her simply because of that fact.

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43 minutes ago, TheFoxQR said:

All I'm saying is, don't discount her for it.

I am not trying to discount her I am saying that we don't have any evidence.  We have several theories of various quality(I happen to like a lot of them) but no definitive proof of ability the way we have with the scadrail shards or with Cultivation.

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It seems to me like it is none of the above. I think that the shard with the best futuresight is the mysterious "Survival Shard". These WoBs to me imply that it knows something that the other shards don't, which in turn implies that this shard has the best futuresight.

 

Quote

 

Seonid

I've heard about a Shard that just wants to survive, hiding off-- it doesn't have a planet it doesn't--

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Seonid

--out there in space, trying to survive. Does it have the intent of like Fear, or something like that?

Brandon Sanderson

The intent is related but only tangentially. Mostly it just knows what's going on and is smart enough to get out of there.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

 

Quote

Questioner

<Could you tell me something about the Shard that is hiding>?

Brandon Sanderson

That is a pretty big spoiler. I can give you a RAFO card. Yes, the Shard that wants to hide, let's just say, they are quite intelligent in their decision to not get caught.

Footnote: based on Oversleep's notes it's probably about Survival Shard
Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

 

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