Was Shallan always on the 4/5th ideal?

[Renen]

Going over Oathbringer yet again, and a few things stand out at me (forgive me for lack of direct quotes I can try go looking if need be).

I think Shallan could have always been on her 4th (maybe even 5th?) ideal the whole time. 

From the very beginning she is noted to be very good at suppressing stormlight. Something theorized to be a skill of voidbringers/high ideal radiants (As Nale mentions that new skybreaker leak too much stormlight). This could be due to her being a lightweaver, as a special skill they possess being prone to espionage and subterfuge. However it could also be due to her always being above other radiants. 

 She was the radiant for far longer than any of the others currently alive (bar heralds), and as a child likely had much less issues about speaking truths than any adult is. 

While we see her progressing through her oaths again, it could just be her getting back in touch with who she is rather than speaking them for the first time. She already had the sword even as a child after all. If the skybreaker's 5th ideal is "I am law", then it is possible that the 5th ideal for a lightweaver is "I am Shallan" (or similar). Given what we see of her, she is clearly all about denying who she is, actively running from her past and memories, and trying to hide behind façades. 

 

We are told that the bond cannot be broken after the 5th ideal is spoken. And we see that a radiant who's ideals are about acknowledging the truth about themselves manages to lie to themselves sooooo hard she forgets she's a radiant. It could be that she simply didn't lie to herself hard enough, but I suspect it could have been the 5th ideal that held the bond together. Even with her lying to herself as hard as she did, she still knows she is Shallan, and it's still the strongest level of a bond. 

 

We also have several instances where Pattern tries to remind her of her oaths. As far as I understand her 2nd and 3rd ideals are widely thought of as admitting that she is the one responsible for her parent's deaths. But there's no point to remind her of that. She is no longer lying to herself about them, and bringing them up doesn't really help her in any situation. However trying to get her to remember something like "I am Shallan" would actually be useful, given her split personality disorder that we know Pattern is concerned about. 

 

Anyone has any input? 

[cfphelps]

She used Pattern as a blade to kill her mother so she has at least at one point been high enough in the ideal path to get the blade. And spent much of WoR denying that she didn't have to wait the heartbeats, etc. 

So I think most people think she's father along than we originally realized before her backstory came out, but I'm not sure if it can be determined how far she actually is. We know she doesn't seem to be aware of plate from her conversation with Jasnah on being done with her wardship, so I don't think there's a similar denial thing going on there, or even an "intent" thing blocking her. Different orders also get plate at different levels, so that does leave some slack for her to be in that higher range. I think she has to back up and accept some of what she's sworn before she can really unlock what she's achieved and continue to progress, though. 

BTW I've always thought of the newer radiants leaking too much Stormlight as more of a factor of how efficient they use it for a given surge, and also how quickly it bleeds away when they are holding but not using it, but hadn't made the connection between it bleeding away more rapidly being what makes it more visible when they hold it, so neat idea there! 

[John Flamesinger]

She was at least the 3rd ideal, since that was when Radiants get Shardblades. I suspect what you asked happened, but I don't think she ever got past the 3rd. For example, where is her armor? I think that was something Jahsna asked.

Storms. I misspelled Jahsna, didn't I? I'm a horrible fan.  

[bxcnch]

Where is it said that ALL Radiants get their shardblade at 3rd Oath? After all, Dalinar doesn't get a Shardblade at all. We can only be sure about this for one or two orders, right? Maybe Lightweavers get their blades earlier - they already are different to the other orders because of their unique oath progression. Anyway, I don't think Pattern would be able to go along with Shallan being so deeply in denial - after all he basically is a "Truthspren" and has been a horrible liar in the past as well. Also, considering how "dramatic" her lies have been so far (I killed my father. I killed my mother.) I have some troubles believing Shallan had already sworn three or more oaths as a toddler. 

[bxcnch]

Oh, and before I forget, her better control of stormlight is probably due to her Horneater-ancestry (red hairs, etc.). I think it was already said that the Horneaters are something of a "Human/Parshman-Hybrid" and we also know that the Fused are more efficient at using voidlight than the Radiants with their stormlight. It only makes sense that a Radiant with Parsh-ancestry would be better at holding Stormlight.

[Wander89]

9 hours ago, John Flamesinger said:

She was at least the 3rd ideal, since that was when Radiants get Shardblades. I suspect what you asked happened, but I don't think she ever got past the 3rd. For example, where is her armor? I think that was something Jahsna asked.

Storms. I misspelled Jahsna, didn't I? I'm a horrible fan.  

My favourite part is that you know you misspelled it yet didn't change it on the edit

[Karger]

16 minutes ago, bxcnch said:

Where is it said that ALL Radiants get their shardblade at 3rd Oath? After all, Dalinar doesn't get a Shardblade at all. We can only be sure about this for one or two orders, right? Maybe Lightweavers get their blades earlier - they already are different to the other orders because of their unique oath progression. Anyway, I don't think Pattern would be able to go along with Shallan being so deeply in denial - after all he basically is a "Truthspren" and has been a horrible liar in the past as well. Also, considering how "dramatic" her lies have been so far (I killed my father. I killed my mother.) I have some troubles believing Shallan had already sworn three or more oaths as a toddler. 

Skybrekers, Edgedancers and Windrunners all get blades at the 3rd ideal Bondsmiths do not get blades.  We have no evidence of any other order getting blades at any other ideal.

Shallan did not get Pattern until she was around 8 if I remember correctly.  A truth does not have to be dramatic it just has to be true.  Some of her truths are different.  I am terrified I can be happy.

I personally do not think that Shallan has ever earned her armor but I also don't think we will get her full backstory until she swears the final ideal. 

[bxcnch]

Maybe the "drama" isn't important but the level of self-awareness is. Otherwise, if it's only about whether or not something is true, being a lightweaver would be pretty easy. "Grass is green, water is wet, I like chocolate, birds can fly, Moash sucks, the Earth is round, fire is hot, and, ta-daa I am a high-level Lightweaver" . Swearing an oath is all about recognising who you are, what you want to be and making a new step towards a more "ideal" you. The words are unimportant, as Teft and Lopen demonstrated. Lopen's first Oath in Thaylenah didn't count because he hadn't truly changed. Kaladin changes when he puts away his vengeance and does what is right. Dalinar changes when he decides to begin his atonement and goes into Jesus-mode. Szeth changes by choosing to serve what he thinks is right out of his own free will. Each truth Shallan has spoken has been accompanying a big step towards a more "real" Shallan, whether or not she could handle it afterwards. If this theory is right, then I will gladly admit that  Shallan must have been the wisest and most introspective pre-teen I have ever seen. 

[+Q10fanatic]

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Karger said:

 

I personally do not think that Shallan has ever earned her armor but I also don't think we will get her full backstory until she swears the final ideal. 

Isn't there a WOB that says Shallan was higher than Kaladin at the end of Words of Radiance? So she must have been a 4 at that point, right? If that is right, do you think she won't get armor until the 5th ideal?

[Quantus]

WOB has it that Shalan was further along in her Oaths but then regressed due to all the PTSD and denial and whatnot, which is why she had a blade as a child but had to re-speak some Truths before getting it back.  Kaladin did something similar in WoR.  As far as her Armor goes, I seem to recall a passage in OB that hinted at her Radiant persona having access to it.  I want to say there was a moment with lights swirling around her like she'd just dismissed it (there was a similar moment for Jasnah, for what its worth).

[Karger]

9 minutes ago, Quantus said:

WOB has it that Shalan was further along in her Oaths but then regressed due to all the PTSD and denial and whatnot, which is why she had a blade as a child but had to re-speak some Truths before getting it back.  Kaladin did something similar in WoR.  As far as her Armor goes, I seem to recall a passage in OB that hinted at her Radiant persona having access to it.  I want to say there was a moment with lights swirling around her like she'd just dismissed it (there was a similar moment for Jasnah, for what its worth).

The illusion of Radiant has plate.  Make of that what you will.

[Quantus]

Fair point, illusion magic forces us to question everything. Though at the point where you are mimicking magic armor with solid illusions, the difference might become entirely academic

[Karger]

22 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Fair point, illusion magic forces us to question everything. Though at the point where you are mimicking magic armor with solid illusions, the difference might become entirely academic

NEVER say that to a lightweaver.  We have enough problems as it is.  Illusion armor is not shardplate and never will be.  If you think otherwise I advise you to try and cross the shattered plains in illusion armor and see how it goes.

[Quantus]

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

NEVER say that to a lightweaver.  We have enough problems as it is.  Illusion armor is not shardplate and never will be.  If you think otherwise I advise you to try and cross the shattered plains in illusion armor and see how it goes.

If we are talking about the Solid Illusions that Shallan was performing in OB, I really think the difference is going to be slim to none.  It's solid for all mundane puirposes, and Invested so it would potentially block Shardblades and Surges in a similar way (I guessing weaker but couldn't say for sure), and assuming the Lightweaver has enough Stormlight available you could renew the illusion a lot easier and faster than you could heal a broken set of plate.  

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

If we are talking about the Solid Illusions that Shallan was performing in OB, I really think the difference is going to be slim to none.  It's solid for all mundane puirposes, and Invested so it would potentially block Shardblades and Surges in a similar way (I guessing weaker but couldn't say for sure), and assuming the Lightweaver has enough Stormlight available you could renew the illusion a lot easier and faster than you could heal a broken set of plate.  

I seriously doubt this is the case as by that logic Lightweavers can theoretically create sentient beings, or entire armies with enough stormlight of which their is an unlimited amount during highstorms.

[Quantus]

15 hours ago, Karger said:

I seriously doubt this is the case as by that logic Lightweavers can theoretically create sentient beings, or entire armies with enough stormlight of which their is an unlimited amount during highstorms.

Id argue that we've seen Shallan do both those things in OB.  Not a full army of sentient beings, but she whipped up a solid, if slightly robotic soldier force, and separately there were three variant Shallan's holding hands.  The limitations seem to be just about stormlight supply, and the personal fallout of fragmenting the lightweaver's own psyche (which seems to be the route to invented sentient beings).  

[Karger]

2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Id argue that we've seen Shallan do both those things in OB.  Not a full army of sentient beings, but she whipped up a solid, if slightly robotic soldier force, and separately there were three variant Shallan's holding hands.  The limitations seem to be just about stormlight supply, and the personal fallout of fragmenting the lightweaver's own psyche (which seems to be the route to invented sentient beings).  

By this logic Lightweavers can easily become mistborn by lightweaving up some lerasium.  Their would also be almost no reason for a lightweaver to advance in terms of oaths as they can just lightweave themselves to the 5th ideal.  Or why not just add some Heralds to the battlefield via lightweaving?

[Quantus]

Just now, Karger said:

By this logic Lightweavers can easily become mistborn by lightweaving up some lerasium.  Their would also be almost no reason for a lightweaver to advance in terms of oaths as they can just lightweave themselves to the 5th ideal.  Or why not just add some Heralds to the battlefield via lightweaving?

Im not sure I understand you here.  It's a huge leap from saying a lightweaver can create solid automatons or armor and saying they can mimic other forms of Investiture. 

 

Though since we do know by WOB that a single person could theoretically bond multiple spren and be of two orders (with both spren's approval) then I could see a Lightweaver creating a splinter personality that was better suited to a different order and having two Radiants that basically just share a host's body.  

[Karger]

2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Though since we do know by WOB that a single person could theoretically bond multiple spren and be of two orders (with both spren's approval) then I could see a Lightweaver creating a splinter personality that was better suited to a different order and having two Radiants that basically just share a host's body.  

You are aware of how unhealthy this sort of behavior is right?  Additionally a lightweaver can't "make personalities" we just use different parts of our own personalities.  We see this with both Veil and Radiant.   Neither of them possess qualities that Shallan does not have for all that they seem different.

[Quantus]

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

You are aware of how unhealthy this sort of behavior is right?  Additionally a lightweaver can't "make personalities" we just use different parts of our own personalities.  We see this with both Veil and Radiant.   Neither of them possess qualities that Shallan does not have for all that they seem different.

Oh, yes, it is absolutely a damaging, psychologically unhealthy process, which is why Shallan has chosen to cap herself at three (and even that probably wasnt great for her).  It's probably as unhealthy as Hemalurgy, in many ways. 

As far as the difference between "making personalities" and just "using bits of your own, I think it's debatable whether there is any difference at all.  Shallan made two different personalities that were very confident because she believed that was a quality she lacked.  Was she right, or was she simply not giving herself enough credit?  That's something she'll have to figure out for herself.  But we have seen her take what were at best small or underdeveloped parts of her personality and highlight them to a much greater degree, making them so fundamental that a new personality emerged.  That should certainly work to a degree that the new personality could appeal to a different race of spren.  Shallan is entirely capable of being honorable and selfless at times, if she chose to focus a personality on those qualities enough she might well be able to attract an Honorspren and become a Windrunner.  Radiant is already basically just Shallan trying to be as much like Jasnah as possible, if she committed to that enough she might impress an Inkspren.  Now, if she managed to attract a second spren and speak the oaths, I do think she'd be required to uphold both sets of oaths at all times (regardless of which personality is dominant) or risk damaging the Nahel bonds.  

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

As far as the difference between "making personalities" and just "using bits of your own, I think it's debatable whether there is any difference at all.  Shallan made two different personalities that were very confident because she believed that was a quality she lacked.  Was she right, or was she simply not giving herself enough credit?  That's something she'll have to figure out for herself.  But we have seen her take what were at best small or underdeveloped parts of her personality and highlight them to a much greater degree, making them so fundamental that a new personality emerged.  That should certainly work to a degree that the new personality could appeal to a different race of spren.  Shallan is entirely capable of being honorable and selfless at times, if she chose to focus a personality on those qualities enough she might well be able to attract an Honorspren and become a Windrunner.  Radiant is already basically just Shallan trying to be as much like Jasnah as possible, if she committed to that enough she might impress an Inkspren.  Now, if she managed to attract a second spren and speak the oaths, I do think she'd be required to uphold both sets of oaths at all times (regardless of which personality is dominant) or risk damaging the Nahel bonds.  

Humans are what we choose to be so obviously we can attract different spren if we practice hard enough.  Veil is fake though.  She does not actually know anything Shallan does not nor does she realy have any qualities that Shallan is incapable of possessing.  As Hoid told her.  "That has always been you."  However I think most spren would be wise enough to stay away from a person deranged enough to try and attract multiple spren.

[Quantus]

I would argue that Veil isnt Fake in any of the ways that really matter to the Spren. Shallan cannot invent a new persona with any skills, knowledge, or actual experience that she herself does not possess (that would take Forgery).  But she can (and has) wildly changed her balance of personality traits, and I think she could do so enough to appeal to a different race of spren, in theory.  Certainly some spren would probably be more open to the Bond than others (but hell, that's the case even with spren of the same race, taking both Ivory and Syl as examples).  

As far as the likelihood of actually gaining Spren approval, I wouldnt go so far as to call it a Wisdom issue so much as a personal (and racial) preference issue, but yes it's not going to be common by any stretch.  So far Brandon has always been very specific to say it's only "theoretically" possible to bond multiple types of Spren.  I dont think spren are innately any more Wise than people, in fact they are arguably less by virtue of being far more polarized and invariable in their personalities.  But they are presented basically as people, with all the prejudices and fallibility that comes with it. They hold grudges, go to war over ideology, misunderstand other viewpoints, etc.  

I do think that Cryptics specifically are likely to be more open to it than some of the others, if Pattern is any indication.  They seem to be all about Experimentation, so they might like the idea of running the experiment and gaining new experience.  Also one of the bigger limitations I see is the fact that you'd have to uphold multiple sets of Oaths, but the Truths model of Lightweavers is going to have the least potential for conflict with another.  

[Govir]

I agree with @Quantus, I believe that making an "illusion" of shardplate that is solid is exactly how a Lightweaver gets Shardplate. We still don't know what real shardplate is (i.e. that worn by Radiants), but I doubt it's a physical object like the (for lack of a better term) "dead" Shardplate that is basically the only kind we've seen (i.e. there isn't some spren Quartermaster doling out Shardplate when a Radiant reaches a certain ideal). Similar to how Radiant Shardblades are their spren taking physical form, and "dead" Shardblades are spren stuck in that physical form.

Therefore it could make sense that Lightweaver Shardplate is them being able to make a physical "illusion" of pure investiture. If any of the "dead" Shardplate came from Lightweavers, it's possible that it is stuck in phsyical form much like the "dead" Shardblades are.

[+Q10fanatic]

 

 

1

33 minutes ago, Govir said:

I agree with @Quantus, I believe that making an "illusion" of shardplate that is solid is exactly how a Lightweaver gets Shardplate.

For Lightweavers alone, this seems plausible. But how do you think the other orders get shardplate? The most common theory is that lesser spren somehow make up shardplate for each order, including Lightweavers. Do you have an idea for the others?

[Quantus]

41 minutes ago, Govir said:

I agree with @Quantus, I believe that making an "illusion" of shardplate that is solid is exactly how a Lightweaver gets Shardplate. We still don't know what real shardplate is (i.e. that worn by Radiants), but I doubt it's a physical object like the (for lack of a better term) "dead" Shardplate that is basically the only kind we've seen (i.e. there isn't some spren Quartermaster doling out Shardplate when a Radiant reaches a certain ideal). Similar to how Radiant Shardblades are their spren taking physical form, and "dead" Shardblades are spren stuck in that physical form.

Therefore it could make sense that Lightweaver Shardplate is them being able to make a physical "illusion" of pure investiture. If any of the "dead" Shardplate came from Lightweavers, it's possible that it is stuck in phsyical form much like the "dead" Shardblades are.

Im not actually going that far.  I still think Lightweavers get normal Plate like all the other Orders, and I personally am in the camp that believes they are formed from the Order's associated lesser spren (Creationspren for Lightweavers, Windspren for Windrunners, Gloryspren for Bondsmiths, etc).  All I meant to say was that we might see a Lightweaver wearing a Plate illusion that could be superficially indistinguishable.  It would be able to stop physical blows, would potentially be invested enough to stop Shardblades, and would sure /Look/ like Shardplate.  It would still require an active Surge like any other Illusion (and all the limitations that involves with Stormlight fuel, Seeker spren, Aluminum, etc); it would still be disrupt-able in the way actual godmetal plate is not.  It also would not offer any of the other benefits that Plate does, like the Strength enhancement.  It would be more along the lines of a dismissable Half-Shard plate armor, to my mind.  

Edited June 27, 2019 by Quantus